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Thread: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

  1. #16
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Your example doesn't really paint up a similar scenario, not even close. For starters, in your example you're assuming that the daughter is in imminent danger. I've said this many times already and I'll repeat it again; Isshin believing that Masaki is in imminent danger is a result of him believing Urahara, it is NOT one of the reasons that he should believe him. Thus, Isshin shouldn't know for sure whether Masaki is dying or not.

    Let's say that a family member of yours suddenly collapses on the street and complains about his head hurting a lot. A complete stranger shows up and tells you that the only way for you to save his life is by following him.

    Would you trust this person immediately? For all you know, the family member might simply be suffering from migraine, which can be extremely painful, but not necessarily lethal. In order for you to trust that your family member is in danger, you first have to trust the judgement of the person who says it, right? Why else do most people believe more in the advice of trained physicians compared to uneducated people when it comes to health? It is simply because we have more faith in them because of their education. By your arguments, it seems like you would trust the diagnosis of any random person as long as it MIGHT be remotely true.

    It is the exact same thing with Urahara and Isshin. For Isshin to believe that Masaki is indeed undergoing Soul Suicide, he first has to completely trust Urahara. I'm not arguing that Urahara has bad intentions or that Isshin should refuse Urahara's help, but the fact that he doesn't even show any signs of suspicion whatsoever is strange. Especially given the fact that Urahara's affililation with hollowfication has been rumored in SS ever since the TBTP. The only logical conclusion I can come up with would be if Isshin had heard of Urahara outside of the events during TBTP and that's why he'd trust him. Kubo even bothered to have Ryuuken interrupt them just as Urahara revealed his name.

    Ryuuken's actions are much more understandable. He trusts Urahara because he's desperate and feeling completely hopeless, not to mention the fact that he hardly knows what's going on.
    That example is not accurate either.

    These additions should be added your example:

    - The disease is nothing like anything you or any doctor has seen before.
    - Any doctor won't bother looking at the patient until their corrupt hospital director gives them approval to do so. They might not even bother looking at them until it's too late. Remember you know nothing about the disease so it's possible you don't have much time.

    The difference is that:

    1. Isshin straight out hid everything about Masaki from the Gotei 13 so there would be questions ot be answered before any healing is done.
    2. SS probably doesn't know how to cure Hollowfication (otherwise why would they have sentenced Shinji and co. to their deaths in TBTP?) + Masaki was hollowfying.

    Now if Isshin doubted Urahara what was he supposed to do? Even if Masaki wasn't going to blow up, she was still hollowfying. This was different from any hollowfication he had seen before. Masaki was hollowfying in her physical human body. Isshin has never seen that before and neither has SS. Isshin needs a way to save her. A man comes out and says he can. Why would Isshin waste his time with second thoughts?

    As for Central 46:

    1. These are the same guys who don't let anyone argue with them.
    2. The same guys who were so stubborn that they never consider the possibility that they're wrong.

    Why would Isshin trust these guys about anyone? These guys are so biased and Isshin clearly is not. In fact judging by Isshin's character of breaking the rules I'd wager that he might have had some personal meetings with them and experienced first hand how 'just' they are.

    I don't see what's so difficult to believe. Isshin's actions are believable. Anything else would have been out of character. What else should have Isshin done?
    Last edited by DraMas26; April 29, 2013 at 07:22 PM.

  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Once again, I'm not arguing that Isshin should have refused Urahara's help. Clearly, Isshin had heard of Urahara. If that was in the context of Urahara's supposed hollowfication experiments and exile, then Isshin should've been suspicious of him. From an objective point of view, do you honestly think that there's nothing suspicious about him showing up just as a human begins to undergo hollowfication given his background and circumstances of excile? Any moron would suspect a link between the two and it IS out of character for Isshin to be so gullible all of a sudden.

  3. #18
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Once again, I'm not arguing that Isshin should have refused Urahara's help. Clearly, Isshin had heard of Urahara. If that was in the context of Urahara's supposed hollowfication experiments and exile, then Isshin should've been suspicious of him. From an objective point of view, do you honestly think that there's nothing suspicious about him showing up just as a human begins to undergo hollowfication given his background and circumstances of excile? Any moron would suspect a link between the two and it IS out of character for Isshin to be so gullible all of a sudden.
    I have to agree with this for a couple of reasons. First, although Isshin doesn't know Urahara on sight, he does recognize Urahara's name. So he knows that Urahara is a banished shinigami and a former captain. Add to that, the disturbing fact that Isshin knows he was attacked by a shinigami while trying to fight that strange hollow, and the fact that Urahara admits to studying hollowfication and using human souls as part of that vaccine that saved the vizards, and Isshin should be more skeptical about becoming another of his 'experiments.' I do agree that honor would make Isshin protect the girl who protected him, but at the same time, one would think that a captain would be wise enough to make sure that the source of the 'cure' is trustworthy before taking that step. I can only chalk it up to Isshin feeling the pressure of Masaki being on the verge of hollowfication. Maybe it was that there wasn't time to do a background check and ask more questions! :P

  4. #19
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Once again, I'm not arguing that Isshin should have refused Urahara's help. Clearly, Isshin had heard of Urahara. If that was in the context of Urahara's supposed hollowfication experiments and exile, then Isshin should've been suspicious of him. From an objective point of view, do you honestly think that there's nothing suspicious about him showing up just as a human begins to undergo hollowfication given his background and circumstances of excile? Any moron would suspect a link between the two and it IS out of character for Isshin to be so gullible all of a sudden.
    Actually the fact that there is a connection to Urahara and hollowfication should speak in Uraharas favour in my opinion. For all Isshin know, Urahara may be responsible for White and the hollowfication of Masaki, but that would just be speculation. Seeing as Isshin recognizes Uraharas name, he should be able to connect him to the events of the TBTP arc. In TBTP there where loads of Souls Suicide by regular people as well as shinigamis. The suicides was not something anyone in SS managed to stop, so why would Isshin think anyone could help him there? Masaki was hollowfying in front of his eyes, so he had to act quickly. Saying that Isshin had no idea that Masaki was dying, and just took Uraharas words for it, sounds really wrong to me. This was a girl who had a freaking hole in her chest, and was clearly starting to turn hollow, and can't really compare to a person getting a headache. If you knew someone who started growing a hole in their chest, and the only examples you had of similar events ended in complete dissapearence, would you go to the local hospital who would likely kill her, or the lone person who you knew had connection to it, and therefor the highest chance of knowing how to fix it? Easy answer for me at least.

    Even if Isshin had been suspicious of Urahara, and not believed the whole Soul Suicide, it was clear that she was becoming hollow, which would have been the same as death the way i see it. Now Urahara, who Isshin knows have connections to Hollowfication offers to help him, why would he hesitate? This person clearly knows more about it then anyone known in SS, where they would never have saved a hollowfying quincy anyway. This was never about trusting Urahara 100% and never doubting, this was about choosing the way that had the highest chance of success. The only other option he had would be to leave her be. This fits perfectly with Isshins character the way i see it. He knows there is a risk to trusting Urahara, but its still the best choice he have.
    Last edited by Vigard0; April 30, 2013 at 11:58 AM.

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  6. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    I have to agree with this for a couple of reasons. First, although Isshin doesn't know Urahara on sight, he does recognize Urahara's name. So he knows that Urahara is a banished shinigami and a former captain. Add to that, the disturbing fact that Isshin knows he was attacked by a shinigami while trying to fight that strange hollow, and the fact that Urahara admits to studying hollowfication and using human souls as part of that vaccine that saved the vizards, and Isshin should be more skeptical about becoming another of his 'experiments.' I do agree that honor would make Isshin protect the girl who protected him, but at the same time, one would think that a captain would be wise enough to make sure that the source of the 'cure' is trustworthy before taking that step. I can only chalk it up to Isshin feeling the pressure of Masaki being on the verge of hollowfication. Maybe it was that there wasn't time to do a background check and ask more questions! :P
    The thing which seems most plausible to me is if Isshin had heard of Urahara in a context unrelated to TBTP. It would make some sense if Central 46 kept the TBTP events classified given that two 'criminals' managed to escape during their trial. If this were true, then him trusting Urahara could be partially explained. It is also plausible given that Urahara grew up with Yoruichi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigard0 View Post
    Actually the fact that there is a connection to Urahara and hollowfication should speak in Uraharas favour in my opinion. For all Isshin know, Urahara may be responsible for White and the hollowfication of Masaki, but that would just be speculation. Seeing as Isshin recognizes Uraharas name, he should be able to connect him to the events of the TBTP arc. In TBTP there where loads of Souls Suicide by regular people as well as shinigamis. The suicides was not something anyone in SS managed to stop, so why would Isshin think anyone could help him there? Masaki was hollowfying in front of his eyes, so he had to act quickly. Saying that Isshin had no idea that Masaki was dying, and just took Uraharas words for it, sounds really wrong to me. This was a girl who had a freaking hole in her chest, and was clearly starting to turn hollow, and can't really compare to a person getting a headache. If you knew someone who started growing a hole in their chest, and the only examples you had of similar events ended in complete dissapearence, would you go to the local hospital who would likely kill her, or the lone person who you knew had connection to it, and therefor the highest chance of knowing how to fix it? Easy answer for me at least.
    A scenario where Urahara causes Masaki's hollowfication and then shows up to save her is nothing but suspicious. If that were the case, then he'd either be mentally ill or he'd have an ulterior motive. There is no sane person that would injury someone fatally and then proceed to offer to heal them out of good-will.

  7. #21
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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    A scenario where Urahara causes Masaki's hollowfication and then shows up to save her is nothing but suspicious. If that were the case, then he'd either be mentally ill or he'd have an ulterior motive. There is no sane person that would injury someone fatally and then proceed to offer to heal them out of good-will.
    It's true that a scenario where Urahara causes hollowfication and then shows up to save her would be very suspisios. I never said that that was the case, because if it was, Urahara could have just taken in Masaki right after Isshin left for SS after White died. What i wrote was that Isshin should be able to connect Urahara to hollowfication, which would mean he would be the most suitable person to heal Masaki. Urahara could have been behind the attack from the start, but like Isshin said earlier, someone in SS needed to be a traitor for White to exist undetected, which meant he had at least as much reason to believe it was someone else then Urahara who was behind the attack (I know Urahara could have an accomplice in SS, but still, this would all just be speculation, and something outside Isshins control at the current time). From the beginning Isshin have been taking rash decisions based on his instinct and knowledge (like leaving SS to look for White in the first place), this decision is perfectly in sync with that personality. He should be suspicios of Urahara, but it's still the best alternative he have.

  8. #22
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity REN KOUEN's Avatar
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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    isshin knew who urahara was from SS

    its not.like he was trusting someone he had never heard of

    its widely known that urahara is one if the smartest shinigami

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