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Thread: How strong is Sasuke?

  1. #751
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Christ where do I start.

    You've seriously misinterpreted EVERY single point and I'm wondering whether you're doing it on purpose or whether you're truly dense.

    Okay. Analogy. You start going off all about water and electricity as if it has any relevance to Naruto. As you'll remember, I made the ANALOGY from Sasuke>Deidara, to Pikachu>Blastoise (I feel absolutely ridiculous having to explain it). Hence, even if a level 40 pikachu (ELECTRICITY) defeats a level 40 blastoise (WATER), it doesn't make the pikachu objectively stronger. He has type advantage. The "tackle, quick attack, and rapid spin" are pokemon attacks. If you misinterpreted that because you didn't play the game 13 years ago, honest mistake, no problem. Still if you didn't understand the analogy in the first place because you're not familiar with pokemon (couldn't think of anything else at the time), you shouldn't have been so quick to dismiss a perfectly valid analogy. I shall do it again.

    Level 40 pikachu > level 50 blastoise (in pokemon, LIGHTNING>WATER), doesn't mean pikachu is stronger.
    Sasuke > Deidara (in Naruto, RAITON>DOTON), doesn't mean he's stronger.
    Why doesn't it mean they're stronger? Because pikachu is super effective against Blastoise's trump card, and Sasuke is super effective against Deidara's trump card. This is lucky. If pikachu would be matched up against an equally powerful Onix, he would be unlucky. To complete this new "unlucky" analogy: If Deidara's bombs weren't Doton, Sasuke would have been unlucky, because he would have been dead. But they were doton, so he was lucky.

    If you truly understood the concept of analogy, you wouldn't have written an entire essay about water and lightning. Obviously THAT part of the analogy was related to the incredible world of pokemon.
    And after not getting this simply analogy, you have the nerve to say: What the hell any of this has to do with Deidara is beyond me. Faceplam.

    But you weren't finished. What you say next is truly remarkable: "I'm simply pointing out that ration advantage didn't allow Sasuke to defeat Deidara. It allowed him to survive against his C4, and that's it."
    Surviving against someone's last trump card has nothing to do with winning the battle? I guess we're done talking then. If I have to explain why 1 and 1 makes 2, I'm done.
    Here's another fun analogy: Tobi's Izanagi when fighting Konan, had nothing to do with him winning the battle. It just allowed him to survive the paper bombs

    As for Kishimoto pulling things out of his ass. Once again, plain english, yet you misunderstood. He did not pull Raiton>Doton out of his ass, I didn't SAY that. He pulled the fact that Deidara's bombs were Doton out of his ass. It's all there in my previous post. When you read, don't immediately start thinking of ways to argue against it, you might end up pulling straw mans ALL over the place. It's a lot of mess for me to clean up.
    So, again. In english. Kishimoto pulled the fact that Deidara's bombs were doton, out of his ass, DURING the battle. And the point I was making, was: he could have also not done that. He could have made Sasuke win in another way. Yet he chose to make Deidara's bombs Doton, which quite fortunately Sasuke is immune to (in case of C4). So I concluded: Kishimoto HIMSELF set ALL the conditions right for me to argue that Sasuke would NOT be the victor if he did not have type advantage. HE decided to make Deidara's bombs easy for Sasuke to neutralize, not me. He was the one who made Sasuke lucky. I'm just the one pointing it out.
    Last edited by Xrayz0r; May 23, 2013 at 12:11 PM.

  2. #752
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    That is why Oro didnt resume control of Hashirama...

    I didnt mention Hiruzen and Minato for a reason, you could attribute the Alliances survival on Sasuke but in no way did he give permission for them to be in the battlefield. Hashirama would have gone regardless of wether Sasuke wanted or not. Hashi was beyond theyre control.

    Also, thanks for pointing out what i said about Tobirama...
    Why would Orochimaru attempt to resume control or deal with Hashirama before he knew what Sasuke had decided? Orochimaru had made it clear that his actions were gonna be based on whatever conclusion Sasuke came to about his chosen path.

    I think that's pretty questionable, given that Orochimaru was capable of limiting Hashirama once before. That along with what we've seen of Edo Tensei make it clear that was by no means a sure thing, Hashirama doing his own thing. Besides, whether or not he could have gone doesn't change that he and the other Hokages did go because Sasuke decided that was what they all were gonna do.

  3. #753
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xrayz0r
    Christ where do I start.

    You've seriously misinterpreted EVERY single point and I'm wondering whether you're doing it on purpose or whether you're truly dense.
    ...you're serious? I'm the one misinterpreting things?

    Quote Quote:
    Okay. Analogy. You start going off all about water and electricity as if it has any relevance to Naruto. As you'll remember, I made the ANALOGY from Sasuke>Deidara, to Pikachu>Blastoise (I feel absolutely ridiculous having to explain it).
    I know what the analogy is, it's just wrong. In Pokémon you use an element that hurts the Pokemon who's weak to that element. You do more damage to them than you'd do to an alternate type Pokémon. Unfortunately, Deidara isn't weak to Raiton. His bombs are. And Sasuke's ration only disables Deidara's bombs whenever he touches them. There were far too many instances where Deidara's bombs could've overcome their weakness and still outright murdered Deidara. You however, who have some sort of vendetta, keep limiting Sasuke's accomplishments to elemental advantage alone. Stop trying so hard.

    I'll give you a better analogy, using Pokémon (since that's what you're relying on).

    Pikachu and Blastoise (of the same level) are fighting. Blastoise uses a water attack that explodes (we'll call it Water Bomb for argument's sake). Pikachu shoots a Thunderbolt at the Water Bomb, and it destroys it because Lightning>Water. Blastoise uses his head and shoots the Water Bomb at Pikachu again while he's trying to charge up a Thunderbolt. The bomb explodes before Pikachu can time a Thunderbolt. The explosion hits Pikachu, KO'ing him. Blastoise wins, despite elemental disadvantage.

    Get it now? Elemental advantage isn't half the handicap you're trying to make it out to be.

    Quote Quote:
    Surviving against someone's last trump card has nothing to do with winning the battle?
    Not when surviving that trump card didn't end the fight, no. That's grasping at straws. And even when he realized that Sasuke had access to Raiton early in the battle, so he should've focused on using attacks other than C4. C1,2, and 3 would've still been effective as surprise attacks to prevent Sasuke from running electricity through them. There were a plethora of ways to win that fight without C4. But he used a second one right after the first.


    Quote Quote:
    As for Kishimoto pulling things out of his ass. Once again, plain english, yet you misunderstood. He did not pull Raiton>Doton out of his ass, I didn't SAY that.
    Proof you're getting defensive about being wrong, since you've resorted to blatant lies.

    Quote Originally Posted by you, in your last post
    No one said anything about not doing it intelligently, by the way. Sasuke has always fought intelligently. Doesn't change the fact that Raiton>Doton is a very lucky coincidence, especially since Kishi pulled it out of his ass DURING the fight in which Sasuke's supposed to win.
    We knew from Deidara's first fight that his bombs were made of clay, and that he was from Iwagakure. There are no jutsu made out of dirt or clay that's not considered Doton, and ninja from Iwa predominately use earth style attacks. His bombs being doton isn't an asspull at all. And when Sasuke's elemental advantage only helps him in one specific situation that didn't determine his victory his impressiveness in the fight can't be questioned (unless you really, really want to make him look bad).
    Last edited by ninjabot; May 23, 2013 at 04:34 PM.

  4. #754
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    That is why Oro didnt resume control of Hashirama...

    I didnt mention Hiruzen and Minato for a reason, you could attribute the Alliances survival on Sasuke but in no way did he give permission for them to be in the battlefield. Hashirama would have gone regardless of wether Sasuke wanted or not. Hashi was beyond theyre control.

    Also, thanks for pointing out what i said about Tobirama...
    You might as well give up. Even though it was made perfectly clear that Hashirama stayed of his own free will and that Orochimaru couldn't control him, some people will still twist it in a way that shows how valuable Sasuke is. If Hashirama had wanted to go to the battlefield immediately together with the other Kages, he could've simply done so. All he would've needed to do would've been to kill Orochimaru, thereby releasing his control on the rest. Then Sasuke would've ran after them screaming 'PLEASE WAIT'. That way, they woul've arrived way earlier than they did too.

    In short, after summoning them, Sasuke had no influence on the Kages' actions whatsoever. It wasn't also that Orochimaru felt no need to try to restrict Hashirama, but that Hashirama felt no need to completely escape Orochimaru's control because Orochimaru wasn't doing anything.
    Last edited by Azuma; May 26, 2013 at 07:11 AM.

  5. #755
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Avishek's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    You might as well give up. Even though it was made perfectly clear that Hashirama stayed of his own free will and that Orochimaru couldn't control him, some people will still twist it in a way that shows how valuable Sasuke is. If Hashirama had wanted to go to the battlefield immediately together with the other Kages, he could've simply done so. All he would've needed to do would've been to kill Orochimaru, thereby releasing his control on the rest. Then Sasuke would've ran after them screaming 'PLEASE WAIT'. That way, they woul've arrived way earlier than they did too.

    In short, after summoning them, Sasuke had no influence on the Kages' actions whatsoever. It wasn't also that Orochimaru felt no need to try to restrict Hashirama, but that Hashirama felt no need to completely escape Orochimaru's control because Orochimaru wasn't doing anything.
    Actually the problem with Sasuke being credited with the Kage being on the field is this sequence.
    Itachi beat Kabuto
    Oro was revived
    Sasuke wanted Oro to take him to the 'people who knew everything'
    Oro took him to that temple
    Oro used the death god reviving jutsu
    Oro used himself as bait
    Oro revived the Kage
    Hashirama wanted to talk to Sasuke.
    Then they went to battle.

    In all this, I find that Sasuke was the instigator in only one case and that too worked because Oro wanted to help him.
    Reading is a good habit.

  6. #756
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    You might as well give up. Even though it was made perfectly clear that Hashirama stayed of his own free will and that Orochimaru couldn't control him, some people will still twist it in a way that shows how valuable Sasuke is. If Hashirama had wanted to go to the battlefield immediately together with the other Kages, he could've simply done so. All he would've needed to do would've been to kill Orochimaru, thereby releasing his control on the rest. Then Sasuke would've ran after them screaming 'PLEASE WAIT'. That way, they woul've arrived way earlier than they did too.

    In short, after summoning them, Sasuke had no influence on the Kages' actions whatsoever. It wasn't also that Orochimaru felt no need to try to restrict Hashirama, but that Hashirama felt no need to completely escape Orochimaru's control because Orochimaru wasn't doing anything.
    Interesting that you ignore the actual argument that was made, which was regardless of whether Hashirama could go or not, he alone wouldn't have saved the Alliance from instant death.

    It's also funny that you claim that he would have just killed Orochimaru, the one person who's been impossible to actually kill. We're talking about a guy who can take fatal wounds and juts pop out a new body, a guy who can literally exist as just chakra. Actually killing him would be no easy feat. Not to mention that being freed from Edo Tensei's control does not mean being freed from it's effect, as shown by Itachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avishek View Post
    Actually the problem with Sasuke being credited with the Kage being on the field is this sequence.
    Itachi beat Kabuto
    Oro was revived
    Sasuke wanted Oro to take him to the 'people who knew everything'
    Oro took him to that temple
    Oro used the death god reviving jutsu
    Oro used himself as bait
    Oro revived the Kage
    Hashirama wanted to talk to Sasuke.
    Then they went to battle.

    In all this, I find that Sasuke was the instigator in only one case and that too worked because Oro wanted to help him.
    Sasuke was the reason Kabuto joined with Obito and revived the Edo summons, he was the reason Itachi place Kotoamatsukami in Naruto, he was the reason Suigetsu and Juugo brought the scroll there, he was the one who revived Orochimaru, he was the reason they revived the Hokage, and he was the reason all the Hokages were allowed to com to the battlefield. Sasuke instigated a whole lot more then a single thing.

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