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Thread: How strong is Sasuke?

  1. #736
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Moderator message by: Gats
    The discussion about Itachi has been moved to the Hangout Thread

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  3. #737
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xrayz0r
    Because it doesn't lend him much credit. A level 40 pikachu could beat a level 50 blastoise. Not because it's "better", but because of lucky type advantage.
    That's a horrid interpretation of what actually happened in the fight.

    Deidara's bombs were disengaged by raiton, but only when Sasuke charges them with raiton BEFORE they detonate. Deidara still had the advantage because all he had to do is stick to C1,2, and 3 inorder to destroy Sasuke. Sasuke's elemental advantage did literally nothing outside of save him from C4. Granted, Deidara screwed up by not changing his strategy once he realized Sasuke had raiton, but that doesn't diminish the fact that Sasuke singlehandedly stripped down Deidara's strategy intelligently.

    This fight is the best example of a decisive victory next to Kisame vs. Killerbee.

  4. #738
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by flow like View Post
    credit gone to orochimaru and suigetsu... sasuke never been smarti n his class... sakura have top ball in intelligence
    No, the credit goes to Sasuke, who's the one who revived Orochimaru in the first place and whose the one who wanted to bring the Hokages back. He's also the one who decided that they all would enter the war. And Sasuke was not only the best in the class, he was best in the entire school.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    1. Huh? so, you know exactly everything huh? Care to share that info? Where in the manga that stated that the lost of a bijuu has no negative impact to the other bijuus? Whereas as far as the manga is concern, there are no bijuu who was killed way back in part 1.
    2. No. The manga clearly shown that minato did sacrificed his life because of jiraiya's prediction. A.) he knew naruto is the destined child. B) that the masked man was the harbinger of the ninja world. So by giving naruto the power of the kyubi, he'll stop that masked man to protect the ninja world.
    1) I know everything we have actually been shown and told. We have seen that the lost of a Bijuu has had no negative impact at any point, nor have we actually heard of any situation where the lost of a Bijuu has caused trouble. On the other hand, we have had nearly every village lose their Bijuus and continue on like normal. The series not only gives us several Jinchuuriki abandoning their village before Part Two, but has given us the death of two Jinchuuriki (Rin and Yagura) before the series began.

    2) No? Minato gave Naruto the Kyuubi to stop Obito, which Naruto hasn't been capable of doing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Again, the prediction was all about the savior who'll stop/save the ninja world from destruction. And minato just knew that it was naruto and the masked is the one who'll destroy the world. So far, the world is just almost in the verge of death, so minato isn't a failure yet.

    You know what? you're already questioning kishi's story. This is kishi's story and that's how he wants the story will go. You got a lot of "what if" scenarios, and i think it wasn't minato's fault. That's how kishi wants his story. So just accept it. He didn't inform anyone on obito and the kyubi because of kishi and he killed himself because kishi wants him to be dead.
    No, it was about Naruto stopping Obito specifically. And the very fact that the revived Minato had to save everyone is failure in the belief that Naruto would be able to stop the disaster that would befall the world, especially if Minato does something like give Naruto a new power-up.

    The "way the story is going" by no means makes it any better. It's still a terrible action that reflects horribly on Minato's "genius" if one's gonna play the objective angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No. It was because of orochimaru. That's far from sasuke's accomplishment. Without the hokages, the ninja world, together with orochimaru and sasuke will be annihilated in the face of their world. So, i think it was sasuke who should thank the hokages.

    No. Team kakashi is under with minato. And the reason why kakashi succeeded their mission is because minato saved their asses. MInato gone into the battlefield to make the enemies stay away from kakashi's team. And yet Minato killed those iwa nins and teleported back to save kakashi's ass. So it was minato's accomplishment and not to kakashi.

    It isn't about the quantity, but the quality. Maybe sasuke defeated a couple of new hundred ninjas under of orochimaru, but their skills and talent aren't comparable to the iwa's ninjas who was defeated by minato on their territory.

    No. it was gaara's fault. He forgot on their plan. And if it wasn't for naruto, gaara would definitely back into the konoha in his transformation mode. Remember how sasuke want to defeat gaara? but damn, he's more like a genin in terms of power. His ass was defeated. So he didn't save the konoha at all.
    It was Sasuke who revived Orochimaru in the first place, it was Sasuke who decided that they needed to revive the Hokages, it was Sasuke who provided the sacrifices, and it was Sasuke who decided that they would all enter the current situation. Orochimaru did nothing more then act on Sasuke's desire, something he outright mentioned.

    Team Kakashi wasn't under Minato at that point. Kakashi was the one in command, and it was his mission. Minato wnet off on his own mission, which was separate from theirs. So as I said, Minato helped... And again, the quality of Oto nins have been shown enough to devastate Konoha. Sasuke took out far more without the aid of allies or a space/time technique, all while holding back and going easy.

    Gaara forgot because he had been wounded, causing him to flee. Sasuke was hardly defeated, he was merely worn out from already fighting Gaara beforehand, yet he still was the one who kept Gaara busy and came to Naruto's aid at the end. And Naruto stopping Gaara in no way goes against my claim about Sasuke helping, because Sasuke did help.

  5. #739
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Not sure what you guys are debating, but I surely hope you're not drawing any conclusions from the oto nins lying around. First off all the oto nins that helped destroy konoha... are dead. The bulk of it is dead. They lost the war, remember? It stands to reason that Oro took at least all his strongest ones, and then they died. What was left back home was the new generation, genin, maybe some chuunin level at that point. Seems more reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    That's a horrid interpretation of what actually happened in the fight.

    Deidara's bombs were disengaged by raiton, but only when Sasuke charges them with raiton BEFORE they detonate. Deidara still had the advantage because all he had to do is stick to C1,2, and 3 inorder to destroy Sasuke. Sasuke's elemental advantage did literally nothing outside of save him from C4. Granted, Deidara screwed up by not changing his strategy once he realized Sasuke had raiton, but that doesn't diminish the fact that Sasuke singlehandedly stripped down Deidara's strategy intelligently.
    Electricity is super effective against water.
    Raiton is super effective against Doton. Nuff said.

    They start off using Tackle, Quick Attack, Rapid Spin, whatever. Down to their trump cards, Hydro Pump is weak, Thunder is super effective. Valid analogy.

    Remember that ALL kishi had to do to shut me up, was not make Deidara's bombs Doton based. It didn't need to be, it was a kekkei genkai anyway. So why did he do it? Because it was right in the middle of the "explain us about the elements" arc, and because main character Sasuke had to have a way to survive against a slightly stronger side character that needed to get wiped out.
    No one said anything about not doing it intelligently, by the way. Sasuke has always fought intelligently. Doesn't change the fact that Raiton>Doton is a very lucky coincidence, especially since Kishi pulled it out of his ass DURING the fight in which Sasuke's supposed to win. Don't blame me for the mistakes Kishi makes, by doing this he implicitly suggests that without lucky type advantage Sasuke wouldn't have won. He could have also come up with something else that had nothing to do with lucky type advantage. He simply handed me material to argue that Deidara would have been slightly stronger had it not been for this advantage. He could have also simply not given me this material, if it wasn't for the fact that he wanted an excuse for Sasuke to beat Oro, Deidara and Itachi despite not being quite as strong as he would appear based on these victories.
    Last edited by Xrayz0r; May 22, 2013 at 04:39 AM.

  6. #740
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member flow like's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    sasuke ressurect orochinaru only for his target. hokages arrived to the battlefield even without sasuke desires

  7. #741
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xrayz0r View Post
    Not sure what you guys are debating, but I surely hope you're not drawing any conclusions from the oto nins lying around. First off all the oto nins that helped destroy konoha... are dead. The bulk of it is dead. They lost the war, remember? It stands to reason that Oro took at least all his strongest ones, and then they died. What was left back home was the new generation, genin, maybe some chuunin level at that point. Seems more reasonable.
    First off, that's not the case at all. They lost because Orochimaru had his arms sealed and signaled the retreat. There's nothing implying the bulk was killed, especially since half those ninjas were from Suna, and there's no sign that Suna had it's forces wiped out. And secondly, Orochimaru would hardly be impressive with Sasuke's performance if his opponents weren't suppose to be a challenge. Not that rank would even matter, since we don't even know the ranks of Iwa ninjas, therefore the exact same claim could be thrown at them.

    Quote Originally Posted by flow like View Post
    sasuke ressurect orochinaru only for his target. hokages arrived to the battlefield even without sasuke desires
    No, they were allowed to go to the battlefield because it was Sasuke's desire to continue Itachi's dream. Orochimaru made it quite clear that the choice was solely up to Sasuke.

  8. #742
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    And Itachi could have graduated so early because of the shape Konoha and the world were in - lot of fighting, and having students graduate early and gain experience would have been good.
    Bitch please. You, I and the rest of the people here know that him being a genius is the reason for his accomplishments including being an Anbu captain at 13 and not just the a reason to get young shinobi some battlefield experience.
    Firm but Fair

  9. #743
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    No, they were allowed to go to the battlefield because it was Sasuke's desire to continue Itachi's dream. Orochimaru made it quite clear that the choice was solely up to Sasuke.
    Yes, because they would have done so much to Hashirama who was already moving on his free will and Tobirama who was sort of resisting the control. Yes, The reason they are on the battlefield is because Sasuke wants them to be...

    And you even said "allowed"...
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Oro has shown to have control over them, why would he restrict them while they explain history? Oro followed Sasukes orders, so they were allowed by him. There may have been a chance that they would have a way to run, what's stopping Oro from sealing them away again?
    Firm but Fair

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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Oro has shown to have control over them, why would he restrict them while they explain history? Oro followed Sasukes orders, so they were allowed by him. There may have been a chance that they would have a way to run, what's stopping Oro from sealing them away again?
    Actually Oro had no control over Hashirama. I only mentioned those two because Tobirama tried to resist Oros restriction while Hashirama was just having a blast.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

  12. #746
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Bitch please. You, I and the rest of the people here know that him being a genius is the reason for his accomplishments including being an Anbu captain at 13 and not just the a reason to get young shinobi some battlefield experience.
    No shit Einstein, you didn't get my point at all. I'm saying the reason why Itachi could have graduated so early was because Konoha needed ninjas during or right after the war, whereas when Sasuke was 7 there wasn't so much need for ninjas, hence him graduating at 12.

  13. #747
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xrayz0r
    Electricity is super effective against water.
    Raiton is super effective against Doton. Nuff said.
    It's actually not. You're acting like if Deidara had fired a powered up C2 at Sasuke and Sasuke threw a Chidori Senbon at it while the bomb was exploding in his face that it would've disappeared into thin air or something. Also, Raiton doesn't beat Suiton. It just passes electricity through it. It defeats Suigetsu because water is an excellent conductor for electricity (when it has minerals inside it). In the elemental wheel Raiton is not stronger than Suiton. If someone fires a Suiton at you and you fire an equal strength Raiton into it the Suiton isn't going to dissipate.


    Quote Quote:
    They start off using Tackle, Quick Attack, Rapid Spin, whatever. Down to their trump cards, Hydro Pump is weak, Thunder is super effective. Valid analogy.
    Again, it isn't, because canonically water isn't weak to lightning.

    Lightning also has a unique relation with water, since water conducts electricity. This means that a Water Release technique can be used to increase the damage of a Lightning Release technique and vice versa.[11] Though this also means that if one's opponent still has a physical connection with the water, either a pre-existing source or one created with their own chakra, then they can be paralysed via their own technique.

    What the hell any of this has to do with Deidara is beyond me.

    Quote Quote:
    Remember that ALL kishi had to do to shut me up, was not make Deidara's bombs Doton based. It didn't need to be, it was a kekkei genkai anyway. So why did he do it? Because it was right in the middle of the "explain us about the elements" arc, and because main character Sasuke had to have a way to survive against a slightly stronger side character that needed to get wiped out.
    I'm simply pointing out that ration advantage didn't allow Sasuke to defeat Deidara. It allowed him to survive against his C4, and that's it. You're implying Sasuke had an unfair advantage because he could stop UN-exploded bombs... when Deidara had both the power and range advantage AND was immune to Sasuke's Genjutsu. Deidara was set up to win that fight no matter what you want to believe.

    Quote Quote:
    No one said anything about not doing it intelligently, by the way. Sasuke has always fought intelligently. Doesn't change the fact that Raiton>Doton is a very lucky coincidence, especially since Kishi pulled it out of his ass DURING the fight in which Sasuke's supposed to win.
    Nah. This didn't come out of Kishimoto's ass, because it happened literally less than 20 chapters prior in a different fight. Kakashi did the same thing against Kakuzu's Earth Armor to great fanfare. And Naruto hitting Kakuzu with FRS was a similar feat of elemental advantage exploitation. Sasuke pulls off elemental advantage but somehow it diminishes his accomplishment? Double standards.

    Don't blame me for the mistakes Kishi makes, by doing this he implicitly suggests that without lucky type advantage Sasuke wouldn't have won.

    That doesn't diminish how impressive he was throughout the fight though, especially since it took Deidara's strongest attack to force Sasuke to truly need Raiton. If it wasn't for C4 his CS speed, boss level summon, other summons, shurikenjutsu and katon would've been enough to win the fight. I repeat: his ration was only necessary to survive C4.

    Quote Quote:
    He could have also come up with something else that had nothing to do with lucky type advantage. He simply handed me material to argue that Deidara would have been slightly stronger had it not been for this advantage. He could have also simply not given me this material, if it wasn't for the fact that he wanted an excuse for Sasuke to beat Oro, Deidara and Itachi despite not being quite as strong as he would appear based on these victories.
    Except Kishimoto doesn't want you to think Sasuke's unimpressive. He wants you to think the opposite. And that's why he allowed him to do impressive things even during fights where he couldn't win (despite people ignoring all the impressive things he's done even while losing). Sasuke was still in a growth state, and all of these matches were to show us how far he has improved without realistically letting him defeat ninja he normally could never defeat. It was good writing. It's the exact same reason why Kakuzu was half dead when Naruto defeated him, and Pein was weakened before Naruto defeated him. It's also the reason why you can't say "Ninja A beat Ninja B, and Ninja B beat Ninja C, therefore Ninja A can beat Ninja C." You can't just say "This guy only beat this guy because of this, so he's unimpressive because of it." You have to pay attention to everything that happened throughout the fight. This is why you'll never delude anyone into thinking his feats against Bee, Itachi, or Orochimaru were unimpressive. Because he doesn't have to win to prove how skilled he is. He just has to do things no one else his age can/has done.

    If we were using your logic, anyone would think that Naruto>Kakuzu, just because that ONE attack did him in. But if you look at everything that happened you realize who's truly superior between the two.

    Quote Quote:
    Don't blame me for the mistakes Kishi makes, by doing this he implicitly suggests that without lucky type advantage Sasuke wouldn't have won. He could have also come up with something else that had nothing to do with lucky type advantage. He simply handed me material to argue that Deidara would have been slightly stronger had it not been for this advantage. He could have also simply not given me this material, if it wasn't for the fact that he wanted an excuse for Sasuke to beat Oro, Deidara and Itachi despite not being quite as strong as he would appear based on these victories.
    You have a case for Itachi and Orochimaru, but you'll never have a case for Deidara. Sasuke won that fight fair and square, and Raiton contributed far, FAR too little to diminish that feat.

  14. #748
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Yes, because they would have done so much to Hashirama who was already moving on his free will and Tobirama who was sort of resisting the control. Yes, The reason they are on the battlefield is because Sasuke wants them to be...

    And you even said "allowed"...
    Right, because an independent Edo summon isn't capable of being cancelled nor has it not been shown there are means to retake control...

    And Tobirama attempted to resist the control and hilariously failed at it. It was because Sasuke decided they all would help fulfill Itachi's desire. At best, you could say that Hashirama could have joined the battle regardless of what Sasuke wanted, but the other three were completely depend upon his decision. And since that includes Minato, there wouldn't have been anyone to rescue the Alliance from the Bijuu Blast nor assist against the Juubi. So my point remains.
    Last edited by Rikudou King; May 22, 2013 at 11:36 PM.

  15. #749
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member flow like's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    without naruto kakashi already kill sasuke>no orochimaru>no hokages>no save alliance

  16. #750
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    Re: How strong is Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Right, because an independent Edo summon isn't capable of being cancelled nor has it not been shown there are means to retake control...

    And Tobirama attempted to resist the control and hilariously failed at it. .
    That is why Oro didnt resume control of Hashirama...

    I didnt mention Hiruzen and Minato for a reason, you could attribute the Alliances survival on Sasuke but in no way did he give permission for them to be in the battlefield. Hashirama would have gone regardless of wether Sasuke wanted or not. Hashi was beyond theyre control.

    Also, thanks for pointing out what i said about Tobirama...
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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