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View Poll Results: Is the Zentopia filler arc "canon" to you?

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  • Yes

    20 74.07%
  • No

    3 11.11%
  • Maybe/Partially

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Thread: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

  1. #16
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SerpentTailedAngel's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Chaper 282: Ten Keys and Two Keys

    Spoiler show

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  3. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member joshua019's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by sarutobi_sensei View Post
    Didn't Mashima say to the fans: Please see the current Anime arc because it contains information about the Zentopia Incident?

    I don't see how it's not canon. To me, it's simple, Mashimad had the base of the story but didn't have time to explain it on the manga, so he created the characters and story outline and the anime team did the rest.

    Just like in Bleach, most of the fillers consisted of Kubo's drawings and things he couldn't introduce in the manga. The filler when they enter Hueco Mundo, the Zampakuto rebellion arc and the filler arc before that one are all ideas of him that he passed on to the anime team. The Bount arc was another one of those arcs that didn't get to the manga but made it in the anime. Same as other small fillers like the ones where Ichigo's human friends and sisters fight against hollows.
    Funny thing the fullbringer arc was meant to be a filter but kubo mental retardation grew worse and actually used it instead (might as well give ichigo back his powers after the timeskip and tweet "opps! that's not meant to happen").
    I do not watch the anime but if mashima is acknowledging its existence, then it must be either his idea to beginning with or a collaboration much the same in anime movies where authors like Oda gives the script writers the backbone of story.

  4. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    There seems to be some confusion regarding the meaning of "canon" and "filler". One is not the antonymous of the other. And that story arc is undoubtedly filler because it was meant to fill the time.

    Because some elements of the story appeared first in the anime doesn't necessarily means it counts as canon for the manga (i.e. the elements of the arc counts for the manga story). It may be just a case of the author giving information to the anime staff before it is used in the manga.

    The "Zentopia incident" stuff is a bit more complicated. It's interesting for sure, but also a small refenrece doesn't necessarily makes it canon.

    However personally I would guess that has more to do with the little background information and character designs the mangakas normally provide to the animation team rather than the author giving attention to the anime.
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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  6. #19
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    How can a small reference not make it cannon though? How would a reference of any sort at all be even vaguely possible if the event in question was not cannon? Its not like mashima simply left an easter egg, the zentopia incident as of now has a tangible effect on the plot of the manga from multiple angles. The reduced number of stellar spirit mages, cobra and his lost eye... Right now the only rational explanation to what mashima has done is that the characters in the manga lived through the actual events seen in the anime, at least until a different version of the zentopia incident is given in the manga.

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  8. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Still. Manga-only readers can't know what happened in the Zentopia filler. They can't know that Cobra lost his eye there, they can't know about anything else that Mashima did not explain on his own in his manga. The manga is officially published in much more countries than the anime.

    How can an anime-only story become canon if only one-half sentence from a side character and one character's scar point to it in the original story? They're only small hints without describing what actually happened. They're not even shown as if they were connected in the manga. One can only see that if one watched the TV show - which most simply CAN'T. It's not a matter of choosing to watch the show or not.

  9. #21
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SerpentTailedAngel's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Access to something and whether or not it's canon are in no way related, and Mashima has done a fair job of dropping hints without being too heavy handed to ostracize people who didn't watch the anime. Zentopia is mentioned while explaining why Lucy and Yukino may be the only Celestial Wizards left, and thus the only ones Arcadios could target, and the mention of the church is shown alongside an image of said church, but you can still follow what's going just knowing the incident had something to do with fewer key users. So far Cobra's only made an appearance, but the fact that he's back looking how he did in the anime means, if nothing else, that the events of the Starry Skies arc aren't being disproven.

    Although on some level I think the issue is what Fox666 said. The term 'filler' technically means anything used to pad and fill time, but it the anime community it's used to refer to anything that an anime adds that you couldn't find in the manga. And people's ideas of what constitutes 'canon' in general seems to be more varied.

  10. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Rarhyx's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    why not just ask mashima on twitter?
    I mean if ~10 (or more) fans will ask it, maybe he will respond...

  11. #23
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    Still. Manga-only readers can't know what happened in the Zentopia filler. They can't know that Cobra lost his eye there, they can't know about anything else that Mashima did not explain on his own in his manga. The manga is officially published in much more countries than the anime.

    How can an anime-only story become canon if only one-half sentence from a side character and one character's scar point to it in the original story? They're only small hints without describing what actually happened. They're not even shown as if they were connected in the manga. One can only see that if one watched the TV show - which most simply CAN'T. It's not a matter of choosing to watch the show or not.
    All of that is irrelevant. The intention is obviously to get the fans to watch the anime after all. The half sentence is more than enough, its conclusive proof that the anime events are something which the characters experienced. And it is not just a half sentence... it has affected the manga world in more ways than you acknowledge. The rarity of stellar spirit mages and the cobra thing are all attributed or perfectly relateable to the zentopia incident.

  12. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    it has affected the manga world in more ways than you acknowledge.
    Man, I simply think it hasn't. Sorry, if I exaggerated. But all those small pieces can't make up the whole puzzle. Those three to five tiny little things do not retell the filler in all its details. You can understand and acknowledge that, can't you?

    We can by no means determine from those tiny pieces how much was done by Mashima beyond the character designs and that Mashima had given the anime creators some catchwords. Especially now that the anime arc is finished and the show on hiatus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lozmaster View Post
    you should probably just give up.
    See, with ad hominem stuff, you'll not gonna keep me quiet as I'm quite stubborn. You may live in a countryside or city with large bandwith to stream or download each episode maybe even the BD rips from US releases. Or you can afford all the money and import the media? You know that's great for you, and I'm totally jealous. But such high bandwith is by far not a standard. Take it or don't, but if you don't want to discuss on topic, why don't you "just give up"?

    BTW: Downloading episodes or watching them online as streams is prosecuted in several countries while simply reading manga isn't. At least in Germany, they've been after those who watched movies and tv serieses through the now closed kino.to portal. GB turns its own citizens over to the US for file sharing serieses and movies. I haven't heard anything about people being prosecuted for reading manga online, have you? True, that doesn't make it legal by any law. But currently "common sense" says there's a higher risk to watch anime than reading manga illegal.
    Last edited by hoeru; May 09, 2013 at 01:34 PM. Reason: last sentence is obsolete

  13. #25
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SerpentTailedAngel's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Whether or not you can stream the anime is irrelevant. Completely, wholly, and utterly irrelevant. There are millions of series that are only available in certain countries and can't be found online period. That means nothing when it comes to whether or not something should be considered as canon.

    It has had an impact on the manga, because it's the reason there are so many fewer celestial wizards in the world, and it's because there were so few that Arcadios needed to go after Lucy and Yukino rather than go for any wizard he could. As for why they haven't summarized it, that is, as has been mentioned already, Mashima practicing good story telling. People don't sit around a room reciting information that they know everyone already knows. And because, as you mentioned, not everyone can see the anime, forcing people to watch it to follow the story would be unfair. Mashima had the characters acknowledge that the event happened, and in a context that anyone who knew about the incident would recognize, but in a way that didn't keep non-anime watchers from being able to follow.

  14. #26
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    Man, I simply think it hasn't. Sorry, if I exaggerated. But all those small pieces can't make up the whole puzzle. Those three to five tiny little things do not retell the filler in all its details. You can understand and acknowledge that, can't you?

    We can by no means determine from those tiny pieces how much was done by Mashima beyond the character designs and that Mashima had given the anime creators some catchwords. Especially now that the anime arc is finished and the show on hiatus.
    Whether mashima was involved or not in the development of the anime is by all intents and purposes irrelevant. Whether he wrote every single aspect of it or whether it was written without him even being aware of it stopped being an issue the second the manga acknowledged a zentopia incident. We have no reason to assume the zentopia incident in the manga is just a similarly named event which has spawned perfectly coherent developments between the anime and manga. There are no contradictions whatsoever between the manga and the filler for that matter. The principle here should be that the zentopia incident mentioned in the manga and the one seen in the filler are precisely the same until stated otherwise, not that they are just similarly named but different events until proven otherwise.

    Even those details given in the manga not retelling the zentopia event is irrelevant and besides the point. The whole idea here is to get people who don't watch the anime to watch the arc just for the sake of making sense of the references of it given in the manga. Being able to tell precisely what happened during the zentopia event from what has been said in the manga would completely beat the purpose of trying to pull what mashima just tried. Its a huge, if not shameless, "wink, watch the anime wink" thing that they pulled.

  15. #27
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member miramira's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    When did they talk about it in the manga ? I seem to have missed that part.
    in Chapter 282, during Yukino and Lucy's talk...

    I don't follow FT anime and wasn't even aware a full arc was added. I assumed the fillers they would add are just short ones. I only checked it out (the Zentopia arc) when it was mentioned in 282.

    I guess it's canon... I'm personally not fond of that arc (I thought they dragged Lucy's back story a bit too long) though it was nice to have something to watch other than what I already saw in the manga.
    "You just can't beat that girl." )

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  17. #28
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Whether mashima was involved or not in the development of the anime is by all intents and purposes irrelevant.
    No, I disagree, no matter how many times you (all, not just kkck) say my arguments were irrelevant. He's the original author. Anime authors aren't involved with with original story. Mashima had to sign a contract that gave the anime authors some freedom in how they interpret the original story - which already resulted in extended plot parts. And since they aren't falsified by manga ...

    Quote Originally Posted by SerpentTailedAngel View Post
    if nothing else, that the events of the Starry Skies arc aren't being disproven.
    So how Natsu and friends encountered the some Eisenwald mages in the earlier episodes before meeting Elsa is canon, too? Or Daphne? She didn't show up at all in the manga but was shown on TV in the Tenrou Arc, therefore isn't denied in the manga, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Whether he wrote every single aspect of it or whether it was written without him even being aware of it stopped being an issue the second the manga acknowledged a zentopia incident.
    Right, A Zentopia incident - but not necessarily the one shown in the anime. There's insufficient information to determine IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by SerpentTailedAngel View Post
    Although on some level I think the issue is what Fox666 said. The term 'filler' technically means anything used to pad and fill time, but it the anime community it's used to refer to anything that an anime adds that you couldn't find in the manga. And people's ideas of what constitutes 'canon' in general seems to be more varied.
    Which would be a complete redefinition of the term "filler". Fillers are unimportant parts which more or less bloat up just to buy time in anime so that TV shows don't catch up with the original story if they're published at the same time. That why they're called "filler".

    True, some may have a reasonable story and even not contradict the original story. But that won't make them canon.

  18. #29
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    See, with ad hominem stuff, you'll not gonna keep me quiet as I'm quite stubborn. You may live in a countryside or city with large bandwith to stream or download each episode maybe even the BD rips from US releases. Or you can afford all the money and import the media? You know that's great for you, and I'm totally jealous. But such high bandwith is by far not a standard. Take it or don't, but if you don't want to discuss on topic, why don't you "just give up"?
    By gods, so now its poor people making the anime uncanon? Is there anything/anyone you won't blame to not accept the fact that the anime is canon?

    So then. Say its shown on TV for free in every country in the world. Do those poor people who don't own a TV stop it becoming canon then? What if we send a letter containing a summary of it to every person in the world, is it canon then?

    Using price as a justification is no justification at all, and you're only weakening your own argument.

    Quote Quote:
    Right, A Zentopia incident - but not necessarily the one shown in the anime. There's insufficient information to determine IMHO.
    So then tell us what happened instead. Everything mentioned points towards it being the zentopia incident shown in the anime. Logically, most people have come to the conclusion that this in fact means it was the same incident being mentioned. Obviously, Lucy,Wendy, Natsu and happy, who were all there when it was mentioned knew about the zentopia incident, else they would have asked about it. They couldn't have gone in to more detail because it was in the middle of airing on the anime and Mashima wasn't about to spoil the plot by giving a big indepth analysis while it was still airing.

    Occams Razor is leading most people to the obvious conclusion, I seriously do not understand what makes you believe that it didn't happen? (You know, other than the poor people)

  19. #30
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SerpentTailedAngel's Avatar
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    Re: Zentopia Filler Arc - Canon or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    So how Natsu and friends encountered the some Eisenwald mages in the earlier episodes before meeting Elsa is canon, too? Or Daphne? She didn't show up at all in the manga but was shown on TV in the Tenrou Arc, therefore isn't denied in the manga, either.

    Right, A Zentopia incident - but not necessarily the one shown in the anime. There's insufficient information to determine IMHO.

    Which would be a complete redefinition of the term "filler". Fillers are unimportant parts which more or less bloat up just to buy time in anime so that TV shows don't catch up with the original story if they're published at the same time. That why they're called "filler".

    True, some may have a reasonable story and even not contradict the original story. But that won't make them canon.
    After the last debate I got into I have a new found hatred for seeing posts get broken into pieces, so I'm just doing this all in one big block.

    I'm not redefining filler. It generally means anything used to fill space between more relevant material, and the practice of using it by adding stories in order to stretch out anime has caused many anime and manga fans to use the term to refer to anything that didn't come from the original work. It matters because while, as something the anime did to allow the manga to get ahead, the arc is filler, but the second definition creates a problem in that it implies that all filler is non-canon. By the first definition, chapter 298 and 299 are also filler, because they were there to pad time while Mashima made chapter 300 a big moment, but they aren't by the second because it came from the original manga.

    The encounter with the Eisenwald mages early on and the Daphnee arc don't need something stated to disprove them because the manga has never done anything to acknowledge them. It has, however, mentioned Zentopia in a context that anyone with knowledge of the Starry Skies arc would recognize is referring to the events of that arc. It is not A Zentopia incident. It's the Zentopia incident that involved a decline in celestial wizards, which happens to be what was shown in the anime

    If Mashima came out and told everyone "Natsu has a younger brother, but he will never appear in the story," you would consider it to be a fact that Natsu has a younger brother, right? So if the story itself says "this incident happened, and we're mentioning it in a context that makes it obvious we mean the one from the anime," then why does that not fly with you?

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