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View Poll Results: The winner of group 16 is... ?

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  • Kūgo Ginjō

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  • Chōjirō Sasakibe

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  • Hiyori Sarugaki

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  • Yukio Hans Vorarlberna

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Thread: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

  1. #16
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    sasakibe,with his 2000years bankai, should take this. Don't talk bullshit such as him being a VC or one-shotted by ichigo, it was stated he never really fought,unless to protect Yamamoto. Be was an idiot but in an all-out he should win...
    Bullshit or not, that is the only fight that he has been seen in. That is all we have to judge his skills on. Sure, we have seen a 'lesser' form of his bankai - but how do we extrapolate from that? That weakened form did nothing to Yamamoto - the real form gave him a scar, but that doesn't make things any easier to judge the power-level of Sasakibe (as there are many what if's - was Yamamoto as strong or was he stronger or weaker? Was it a lucky strike? Did Yamamoto use his bankai? Did Yamamoto/Sasakibe go all out? etc. etc...)

    He has not shown any basic ability. So, the best we can say is that he had a more powerful (slightly/extremely/somewhere in between) bankai than was shown by the Quincy against Yamamoto. You can say that he 'should be' stronger than Byakuya/Mayuri/Soifon... but without any evidence I will not accept it. They have all shown abilities that can beat Ginjo, Hiyori and Yukio - Sasakibe has not.

    Even if he was not going 'all out' for some BS reason - We can still guess that his resilience is sub-par, as, like it or not, he was one hit KO'ed by Ichigo.
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Sasakibe was able wound Yama with a newly obtained bankai. And I'm sure Yama was not significantly weaker back then, if not stronger. Enough for me to vote Sasakibe here, especially considering the others aren't in my monster tier.
    Erfworld

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Kazu-Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    The thing to remember here is what has Sasikabe shown?
    Let's list them, shall we?

    -Oneshotted by Ichigo
    -Gave Yamamoto a scar at some point in the past
    -His Bankai was stronger than the one used against Yama, which did absolutely nothing.

    Yukio managed to trap Kenpachi, Byakuya, Histuga, Ikkaku, Renji, Rukia and Ichigo is his game. He has been shown giving people in his game 'extra lives'. He was beaten by Histugaya, because he trapped Histu in the same room he was in - He trapped others in seperate rooms, and contanined Ichigo and Ginjo without entering the game himself, so we know he can.

    Ginjo is strong, sure. But we've seen no upper limit to Yukio's powers. Nobody has beaten his powers other than Ichigo - rathter, they've beaten him. He could save and Load Ichigo in the middle of a battle without trouble, and can even speed up (and, I assume, slow down - but that's not shown) time.

    He's stronger than people realise...

    Epic Brofist!

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  5. #19
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazu-Sama View Post
    The thing to remember here is what has Sasikabe shown?
    Let's list them, shall we?

    -Oneshotted by Ichigo
    -Gave Yamamoto a scar at some point in the past
    -His Bankai was stronger than the one used against Yama, which did absolutely nothing.

    Yukio managed to trap Kenpachi, Byakuya, Histuga, Ikkaku, Renji, Rukia and Ichigo is his game. He has been shown giving people in his game 'extra lives'. He was beaten by Histugaya, because he trapped Histu in the same room he was in - He trapped others in seperate rooms, and contanined Ichigo and Ginjo without entering the game himself, so we know he can.

    Ginjo is strong, sure. But we've seen no upper limit to Yukio's powers. Nobody has beaten his powers other than Ichigo - rathter, they've beaten him. He could save and Load Ichigo in the middle of a battle without trouble, and can even speed up (and, I assume, slow down - but that's not shown) time.

    He's stronger than people realise...
    Correction: All of them let themselves get trapped. Kenpachi had the enough time to spit out a whole sentence before the room closed. They clearly could've escaped if they wanted to, although the Fullbringers were so weak that they didn't care about being trapped.

  6. #20
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Correction: All of them let themselves get trapped. Kenpachi had the enough time to spit out a whole sentence before the room closed. They clearly could've escaped if they wanted to, although the Fullbringers were so weak that they didn't care about being trapped.
    Incorrect, it is likely that they were already under his power before - he just separated them into different rooms for their 1vs1 fights (So Kenpachi was already 'trapped' under the power's influence, before he had the chance to talk).
    Last edited by zimbardo; June 02, 2013 at 04:21 AM.
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  7. #21
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Incorrect, it is likely that they were already under his power before - he just separated them into different rooms for their 1vs1 fights (So Kenpachi was already 'trapped' under the power's influence, before he had the chance to talk).
    Not the same thing. In the first panel, he merely managed to set up some illusion in the real world. If you claim that they were already under effect, then how do you explain the fact that Ikkaku never changed scenery and that Kenpachi returned to the same dimension as Ikkaku was in? The only logical explanation is that Ikkaku was in the Real World throughout.

  8. #22
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Not the same thing. In the first panel, he merely managed to set up some illusion in the real world. If you claim that they were already under effect, then how do you explain the fact that Ikkaku never changed scenery and that Kenpachi returned to the same dimension as Ikkaku was in? The only logical explanation is that Ikkaku was in the Real World throughout.
    No, they were under his game at that point. Ikkaku was not in the real world, but in a game world. Kenpachi doesn't go back to the same dimension as Ikkaku - he says that he was the only one to get out. If they were not in the game world, then Yukio would have died twice before he put them into their rooms...
    Infinite RAGE!

  9. #23
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Ginjo annihilates the competitors.

    Like Ichigo, he also became a transcended being, able to demonstrate transcendency the very moment he acquired Ichigo's power http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...66-page-9.html . This transcended status automatically makes him able to negate Yukio's Fullbring's dangerously haxxed dimensional influences or any shinigami influences once he predicate his authority over those specific natures http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...89-page-7.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...89-page-9.html.

    He was able to fight against Ichigo whom in reality is above every other shinigami out there who had performed & would in fact give a whole lot of them (if not all) who are the most capable & excellent fighters, the strongest & experienced captains, the one shot treatment. Kubo built him to be that powerful.

    It's also important to note 2 things;

    .Ginjo didn't merely just fight Ichigo, he pushed him. He matched all that Ichigo's fully had to offer in their shikai battle. & in their bankai battle, Ichigo had to properly combat him with his might before gaining victory.

    .It's especially vital to note that Ginjo also gained Ichigo abilities & perhaps every single one of them, even those which Ichigo had yet to use, meaning, it makes perfect sense why he was able to demonstrate a shikai & bankai which maneuvered at a very noticeable striking power & speed to Ichigo's & appeared similar in size to Ichigo's. It's also through this should we know that the final state of battle for Ichigo, aka Final Getsuga Tenshou could possibly be in Ginjo's possession http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-17.html .

    An able captain class fighter, capable of training a disciple & a friend to be captain class, gaining Ichigo's transcended powers is going to be extremely difficult to deal with conventionally.

    Now there are some things I would like to address before commenting on Ginjo's competitors.

    & that is the assumption that Ichigo actually got stronger when he acquired his masked.
    This is a lazy & wrong assumption.

    Lazy, because the individual or individuals who arrived at this conclusion never bothered properly analysing what the Mask Arc (yes I know I said "Mask Arc") was all about for Ichigo in progression of power.

    & Wrong because prior to the mask shenanigans Ichigo went through & the obtaining of control of said mask, the manga perfectly clears & explains the fact Ichigo would have in fact annihilated the Espades that came his way because in truth, the power he should have demonstrated against them (the Espada) is similar, in fact superior to what he demonstrated against Segunda Etapa, Ulquiorra Cifer.

    Have I gotten your full attention yet? Ichigo ought to have been capable of demonstrating just that because that Form which appeared in that battle (& later on when Ichigo wanted to learn FGT) was Ichigo's http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...24-page-4.html . He is the master & those powers are his instruments to be used for his own purpose irrespective of their own rebellious intentions against whatever Ichigo's own intentions may be http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-11.html . Unfortunately Ichigo missed the secret recipe to enjoy those powers & as a consequence of him not understanding that his Hollow is Zangestsu & also for not accepting them both as one of the same accord. In fact Ichigo attempted to even rid of his Hollow http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3380207 .

    In all honesty, Ichigo was always superior but he himself merely had to understand that. No wonder he struggled against Dordoni which was also surprising to Aizen http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...55-page-3.html & he also struggled against Grimmjow when he was in fact superior to Ulquiorra Cifer http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...3-page-19.html & a threat to Aizen http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...3-page-13.html

    No wonder the same captains he surpassed are coming back & out performing him.

    I've digressed long enough in what I would call a very silly tournament (I'm allowed to comment what I think about it right Mods?) so now on with Ginjo's competitors.

    Hiyori Sarugaki is a very capable fighter. 100 years ago she was a VC. In the present she is much stronger because she's had 100 years to master her abilities & of course being a Vizard, she had greater boost than normal shinigami. She is captain class fighter able to fight along side other captains. However it's simply not enough against Ginjo.

    Chōjirō Sasakibe is even worse. He got humiliated (admittedly by a Badass Ichigo of the SS arc but still humiliated nonetheless against SS Ichigo's shikai form easily) & he had yet to demonstrate anything at all that makes him stand out above the rest & before you even conceive of the notion of him not being "serious about Ichigo", look at his facial expression & thought when he witnessed Ichigo's strength. & for goodness sake, Ichigo was an invader who made all of SS ready for combat & ready their weapons even in forbidden areas. He was the invader that already had the status of defeating a captain & right in Sasakibe eyes, he stopped the freakin Sokyoku phoenix, the equivalent of 1million zanpakutos & finally destroyed the Sokyoku Hill that held Rukia, with a mere stab of his sword (his Kenatsu was that powerful, to reach the very bottom of the ground from where he was & pieced it entirely). A rational thinker should know Sasakibe simply wasn't allowed to take Ichigo lightly.

    Now for his bankai. An interesting bankai that shoots lightning from the sky but why in the world would this qualify him to be able to fight anybody? Not to mention beings of Ginjo's calibar. As far as manga is concerned, he had yet to perform what would make him superior to Ikkaku's fighting prowess.

    I've already talked about how Yukio is overpowered by nature. But let's talk hypothetically for a moment. Let's exclude Ginjo being there. Now that Ginjo is excluded, Yukio has a great opportunity to defeat all his competitors because the moment he traps them in his realm (which is a very quick process) is the moment he becomes literally unstoppable. The trapped automatically become the closest thing to his play thing, his video game character which he could even monitor from the outside world or delete entirely if he pleases. The only beings that can stop him in his realm are transcended beings & himself.

    ---------- Post added at 02:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    No, they were under his game at that point. Ikkaku was not in the real world, but in a game world. Kenpachi doesn't go back to the same dimension as Ikkaku - he says that he was the only one to get out. If they were not in the game world, then Yukio would have died twice before he put them into their rooms...
    Prior to Ichigo's attack against Jackie, Yukio, Knuckles boy & etc http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/463/7

    Yukio already trapped them all in his dimension including Ikkaku http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/473/5 . I explained that extensively to Azuma already in part 3 of this tournament but he was ready to argue back thus all my words were in vain.
    Last edited by Kay3795; June 02, 2013 at 09:10 PM.

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  11. #24
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Prior to Ichigo's attack against Jackie, Yukio, Knuckles boy & etc http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/463/7

    Yukio already trapped them all in his dimension including Ikkaku http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/473/5 . I explained that extensively to Azuma already in part 3 of this tournament but he was ready to argue back thus all my words were in vain.
    I am not sure why you were addressing that to me - I agree that they were already trapped (unless you were agreeing with me?)

    But anyway, a very well worded post! Consider myself swayed.
    (though I still feel that Yukio will give Ginjo a run for his money)
    Infinite RAGE!

  12. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Sasakibe is heavily underestimated because of his lack of appearance and fights in the manga;however,judging by the time-line when he mastered his Bankai and Yama-jii's words about him,I do believe he will win this.A Bankai that managed to put a scar on that young Yama-jii will be able to beat the ones in this group,imho.

  13. #26
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Quote Originally Posted by g0dzax View Post
    Sasakibe is heavily underestimated because of his lack of appearance and fights in the manga;however,judging by the time-line when he mastered his Bankai and Yama-jii's words about him,I do believe he will win this.A Bankai that managed to put a scar on that young Yama-jii will be able to beat the ones in this group,imho.
    Sasakibe is heavily 'underestimated' due to his performances in his fights. He suffers from an inverse Komamura effect.
    People hate on Komamura because he keeps on losing - however, he has only fought people like Aizen (twice) and Hollowfied Tousen (and this was to show how strong the new method for hollowfiaction was).
    Sasikebe however has been destroyed by Ichigo, and offscreened by Driscoll.
    Sure, he mastered his bankai before Kyouraku and Ukitake - however that doesn't mean that it is as strong as Kyouraku or Ukitake's.
    Also - mastering bankai =/= mastering all the other shinigami techniques.
    All we know is that he has mastered his bankai, has served for a long time and was offered a captain position but turned it down.

    Now we know many characters who have mastered their bankais. We also know that there is a wide range of variability between captains.
    Also, the serving for a long time clause doesn't prove anything much either, as he was prone to not getting involved in fights (therefore how would anyone know his strengths?).

    We do know that he damaged Yamamoto with his bankai, but we do not know the conditions of that fight.
    We also know that Sasakibe on purposely did not fight following becoming Yamamoto's VC.
    It has been suggested that if one does not continuously test one's skills (fight) then the skills will weaken over time. There is nothing to suggest he is anywhere near as strong as he used to be (Sasakibe I mean).

    If we judge him based on what he has shown - and not on the one line of text that says he was strong - then things do not look good for him in these fights.

    One more problem with judging him solely on this line by Yamamoto is that how do we judge his performance against others in this tourney?
    The old - he damaged Yamamoto - argument will mean that he is likely to win, or at least do better than I think he should. I mean, who else can state that they have put a scratch on that man?
    Infinite RAGE!

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  15. #27
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Well,following that logic,things are as you say.However,there is a huge time during which Sasasike has actively trained for improving Bankai;he himself said after his fight with Yama-jii that he will train to improve his Bankai to the best so that it can benefit Yama-jii.That being 1000 (or 2000 years ago? can't remember),he has had a huge amount of time to improve his Bankai,and by improving his Bankai I do believe that his overall power has risen (reiatsu mainly,as for the other Shinigami techniques we have no information).Yes,he has not shown any kind of feats and maybe the reason is because of Kubo-trollness,just like what happened with Unohana.However,in this specific group,I do believe that he will be the winner.Ginjo MAY be a captain-level (though to be honest I do not believe he can actually fight on par with any captain),but Sasakibe has been implied to also be a captain-level(in his case,it seems more realistic to assume to he has the necessary power to become a captain.)I do believe that he got stronger,because he did say that he will improve his Bankai,and Yama-jii noted that Driscoll was not using the full power of his Bankai,saying that he Sasakibe's Bankai couldn't have gotten only a tiny bit better(this was the main idea IIRC).So,in Driscoll's hands,his Bankai was a bit stronger than his older one,and it only makes sense.If Sasakibe would have shown us a fight where he fought with his Bankai and all power,we wouldn't have such a poor view over him.Against Ginjo,though,I do believe he will win.Against other captains,that is highly debatable.

  16. #28
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Quote Originally Posted by g0dzax View Post
    Well,following that logic,things are as you say.However,there is a huge time during which Sasasike has actively trained for improving Bankai;he himself said after his fight with Yama-jii that he will train to improve his Bankai to the best so that it can benefit Yama-jii.That being 1000 (or 2000 years ago? can't remember)
    One more problem with his bankai is that he only used it once in a fight - ever. This was, unfortunately, the fight that he died (and it was stolen from him). It would have been awesome to see him fight using it, but unfortunately that didn't happen.

    Using a weapon (bankai) in practice and using it in actual battle are very different things. You can learn 1000 techniques by yourself and think yourself highly proficient, only to find out that they mean absolute squat when you really come to use them.

    This also leads me to believe that him using it vs Yamamoto wasn't even a real fight. I mean, sure Yamamoto is scarred, but Sasakibe is pretty much unscratched. I doubt Yamamoto tried very hard at all to hurt Sasakibe in that sparing match.

    I can see how people will think of Sasakibe as strong - due to his suggested feats - I however can not follow these thoughts - due to accepting what I have actually seen, rather than what has been suggested.
    Last edited by zimbardo; June 03, 2013 at 08:19 AM.
    Infinite RAGE!

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  18. #29
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member xXAshisogiJizoXx's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    I feel like the "not knowing Yukio's upper limit" is a weak argument. Not only do we have to argue based on what is seen and arguably said, but the idea that if its not shown to be not true is like saying that because we haven't seen proof that Giriko can't make a contract that says if his enemy can't sing "I Dreamed a Dream" in two seconds, they DIE. Aside from trying to put the idea of Kenpachi singing Les Mis into your mind, its weak to argue for a double negative. Plus I see the fullbringers as the Kubo equivalent of the Psychics in YuYuHakusho, which we know Bleach borrows heavily from. They got cool powers, but in the grand scheme, their power was limited; only human.

    Problem Sasakibe faces is his strength is based all upon inference, with nothing explicitly shown. I don't think that scarring Yama should be taken lightly. Even if Yama is covered in scars, and not fighting all out, physically he is pretty damn durable, and I doubt his defenses were down in that spar. Yama's passing strength is probably greater than a lot of captain's total strength after all.

    Ginjo is pretty tough, and we are probably going to see something new from him in the coming chapters, but just wasn't impressed with him. I'm sure he would be somewhere in the realm of captain level, as is Sasakibe, but that's it.

    Hyori isn't fodder at all, but no real shot either IMO.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament: Group 16

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    Problem Sasakibe faces is his strength is based all upon inference, with nothing explicitly shown.
    Problem is what he has explicitly shown doesn't match up to anyone else in this fight.

    If we are to judge people just on what they have shown, he loses pitifully.

    Now, I bet that he will do quite well in this fight - votes wise. I don't think he would do well if this fight occured.

    Unfortunately, should he win, who will beat him? If dealing a scar to Yamamoto (impressive but his only real feat - other than quickly mastering bankai - which I am not as impressed by), in a scenario which is not explained at all, is such an achievement - tell me why he should lose to people like Byakuya, Gin, Kyouraku or Ulquitoria?

    None of those 4 have ever put a scar on Yamamoto.

    Kyouraku even fought with Ukitake in a fight were we can be sure Yamamoto was trying to hurt them - and still they didn't put a scar on him...

    Although Yukio's upper limit is not clear - what he has shown is significantly more than what Sasakibe has.
    He has shown the ability to trap VC's and Captains of SS in unbreakable barriers. He has shown the ability to perform Aizen-esque illusions (such as when they thought he had been killed). He has shown the ability to control the world that he traps people in - doing things such as controlling weather/physical conditions/health/etc. as well as the ability to summon into that environment whatever he wants...

    Ginjo has also shown great feats - in fact, if he was not a threat - why would SS send 3 captains to fight him? Would they really send 3 captains just to deliver a sword to Ichigo? 3 captains to sweep up a weak bunch of fools (the fullbringers)?

    Hell, Hyori is pretty tough herself - I'd put her well above Sasakibe in shown feats...

    Are you people honestly suggesting that Sasakibe should progress to the finals on suggested strength alone, even if his shown strength is severely sub-par?!?
    Last edited by zimbardo; June 04, 2013 at 03:28 AM.
    Infinite RAGE!

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