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Thread: Mikoto was a Senju!

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Power hungry? Even the council itself mentioned that the Uchiha clan was simply after the power they previous had. Nothing at all suggest that they had wanted more then that. Itachi and Sarutobi sure didn't act as if the fate of the village was at stake. And most importantly, you seem to be forgetting that Fugaku and Mikoto willingly accepted death at Itachi's hands, knowing he was acting against them and for Konoha, all so he and Sasuke would survive. That's not something a bunch of power hungry people do, especially declare they still love their betrayer.

    And really, the idea that the weakened village would be open to attack is a pragmatic assumption. We've seen that sort of situation three times now, and not once did another village come in to take advantage of the weakened state.
    Previous power? And what was that anyway? They've given the police force since tobirama's time. And they're still the konoha's police at their coup. You keep on insisting that the uchiha had the previous power. Whereas in the konoha's history, there's no singleuchiha capable enough to become a hokage or an elders. ( itachi is a given) so what kind of power they previously had?

    Do share your knowledge. Because honestly, I can't find that in the manga. Not unless, you're just making that up.
    No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all your POWER/STRENGTH is no more useful then a squirt gun. And if you cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at will?

  2. #32
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    Re: Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    I think they're classmates in the academy. So it's just natural that they know each others.

    ---------- Post added at 06:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:39 PM ----------



    Female hashirama? Nah, she's more like female haku.
    It's never been hinted at that they were classmates in the academy. All we've found out about her academy days was that Minato was in her class.

  3. #33
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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    When one is not content with how much he has then yes. They where ready to start a civil war that would probably lead to the village's distruction (because of its weaken state) and then plundge the ninja world in a world war just so they can have more power.
    Except they were content with what they had. It wasn't until Konoha started taking even that away that they choose to rebel. And the possibility of the vilage being attacked or a world war were a possible conclusion, not a sure thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    They accepted the fate they got based on the actions they chosed. Loving his son has nothing to do with what they where ready to do for POWER (even if its getting back the power they once had).
    It has plenty to do, because someone power hungry as you claim wouldn't simply surrender to their opponent or willing choose to lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    No village had the same weaken state that a civil war of that level would bring. Now i am sure Itachi knew what he was doing considering he is as wise as a hokage and 1 of the smartest man in this manga.
    The Kyuubi attack on Konoha was said to have devastated the village, the invasion of Suna/Oto weakened Konoha to the point that they needed to send out every available skilled ninja to complete missions and leaving only the genin behind, and the same event weakened Suna to the point that it had to concede to Konoha afterward. That's not even counting all the other times a village has been implied to have been devastated like from their Jinchuuriki going wild. Point is, that none of those noted devastating events lead to any other village attacking or a world war.

    And Itachi didn't want to eliminate his clan until Danzo threatened Sasuke, who various characters made clear Itachi would do anything for. If it was the only thong to do, then Itachi wouldn't have been looking to get more time for Sarutobi or had to be blackmailed into it. Now considering that Itachi would have spilled Konoha's secrets to all the other villages had something happen to Sasuke, his decisions show nothing more then his massive love for his little brother.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Previous power? And what was that anyway? They've given the police force since tobirama's time. And they're still the konoha's police at their coup. You keep on insisting that the uchiha had the previous power. Whereas in the konoha's history, there's no singleuchiha capable enough to become a hokage or an elders. ( itachi is a given) so what kind of power they previously had?

    Do share your knowledge. Because honestly, I can't find that in the manga. Not unless, you're just making that up.
    We were outright told that they were trying to take back political power. They can't take something back, if they never had it in the first place, so clearly they did have more power then just the police force. And how can you talk about Konoha's history when we know very little of anyone outsides the key characters?

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  5. #34
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Except they were content with what they had. It wasn't until Konoha started taking even that away that they choose to rebel. And the possibility of the vilage being attacked or a world war were a possible conclusion, not a sure thing.

    It has plenty to do, because someone power hungry as you claim wouldn't simply surrender to their opponent or willing choose to lose.

    The Kyuubi attack on Konoha was said to have devastated the village, the invasion of Suna/Oto weakened Konoha to the point that they needed to send out every available skilled ninja to complete missions and leaving only the genin behind, and the same event weakened Suna to the point that it had to concede to Konoha afterward. That's not even counting all the other times a village has been implied to have been devastated like from their Jinchuuriki going wild. Point is, that none of those noted devastating events lead to any other village attacking or a world war.

    And Itachi didn't want to eliminate his clan until Danzo threatened Sasuke, who various characters made clear Itachi would do anything for. If it was the only thong to do, then Itachi wouldn't have been looking to get more time for Sarutobi or had to be blackmailed into it. Now considering that Itachi would have spilled Konoha's secrets to all the other villages had something happen to Sasuke, his decisions show nothing more then his massive love for his little brother.

    We were outright told that they were trying to take back political power. They can't take something back, if they never had it in the first place, so clearly they did have more power then just the police force. And how can you talk about Konoha's history when we know very little of anyone outsides the key characters?
    After founding the konoha, hashirama never said that the village belong to the uchiha and senju. And as the manga said, there's no such thing as VIP clan in the konoha. All of them are one/equal. And they're under to their protector, their hokage and their elders. So it's hard to imagine that the uchiha had more power than the rest of the clan or power other than for being a hokage and an elders. What kind of power that be? Are the uchiha are the royal clan/family in the konoha?

    So overall, the uchiha doesn't have that kind of power. They're just the konoha's police force. They don't have that kind of power simply because the senju/hashirama just let them live.
    No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all your POWER/STRENGTH is no more useful then a squirt gun. And if you cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at will?

  6. #35
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    @Rikudou King

    Quote Quote:
    Except they were content with what they had. It wasn't until Konoha started taking even that away that they choose to rebel. And the possibility of the vilage being attacked or a world war were a possible conclusion, not a sure thing.
    Oh look at little old uchiha... Bohoho... We where moved to the edge of the village... Oh what we lost... so HORIBLE....

    Better start a world war and decimate the village, do it NOW... And this IS what would have happened... A good number of caracters claimed it... It was as sure as the sun rising the next morning... Sure a black hole could swip trough the solar system and anihilate the Sun... But... Well yeah...

    Oh and perhaps next time they should help defened the village vs a Kyuubi attack. They where sure as hell lucky to be out on a "mission"(or whatever it was) when this happened.

    Quote Quote:
    It has plenty to do, because someone power hungry as you claim wouldn't simply surrender to their opponent or willing choose to lose.
    He "surrendered" to his SON who ALREADY won the fight. He was behind them with a sword.

    Quote Quote:
    The Kyuubi attack on Konoha was said to have devastated the village, the invasion of Suna/Oto weakened Konoha to the point that they needed to send out every available skilled ninja to complete missions and leaving only the genin behind, and the same event weakened Suna to the point that it had to concede to Konoha afterward. That's not even counting all the other times a village has been implied to have been devastated like from their Jinchuuriki going wild. Point is, that none of those noted devastating events lead to any other village attacking or a world war.
    Not the same. They where not engaged in a civil war... They had ninja to even take missions...

    Quote Quote:
    And Itachi didn't want to eliminate his clan until Danzo threatened Sasuke, who various characters made clear Itachi would do anything for. If it was the only thong to do, then Itachi wouldn't have been looking to get more time for Sarutobi or had to be blackmailed into it. Now considering that Itachi would have spilled Konoha's secrets to all the other villages had something happen to Sasuke, his decisions show nothing more then his massive love for his little brother.
    Because he got what Danzo was telling him.. HE KENW that was the only way out. The "threat" was about what would happen if this events would be allowed to play out.
    He had as much wisdom as a hokage... HE KNEW that was the only way out at this point.. HE KNEW his people are NEVER going to stand down or accept a peace treaty...
    When Danzo offered to "protect" Sasuke so Itachi at least get's something he accepted it... It was because Danzo GAVE him something and not because of a threath.

  7. #36
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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    After founding the konoha, hashirama never said that the village belong to the uchiha and senju. And as the manga said, there's no such thing as VIP clan in the konoha. All of them are one/equal. And they're under to their protector, their hokage and their elders. So it's hard to imagine that the uchiha had more power than the rest of the clan or power other than for being a hokage and an elders. What kind of power that be? Are the uchiha are the royal clan/family in the konoha?

    So overall, the uchiha doesn't have that kind of power. They're just the konoha's police force. They don't have that kind of power simply because the senju/hashirama just let them live.
    First off, the village only began with the two clans living there. It would make no sense, given Hashirama's attitude, that there wouldn't have originally been an equal distribution of political power. Heck, he wanted Madara to become Hokage. Secondly, there are "noble" clans in Konoha, of which the Uchiha clan was apart of. And thirdly, it really doesn't matter what you wish to think. The fact remains that we were outright told that the Uchiha clan was attempting to take back their political power and there's not a single statement in the series saying they didn't have such power. Nothing at all states that they only had the police force, only that it was later given to them as a peace offering.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Oh look at little old uchiha... Bohoho... We where moved to the edge of the village... Oh what we lost... so HORIBLE....

    Better start a world war and decimate the village, do it NOW... And this IS what would have happened... A good number of caracters claimed it... It was as sure as the sun rising the next morning... Sure a black hole could swip trough the solar system and anihilate the Sun... But... Well yeah...

    Oh and perhaps next time they should help defened the village vs a Kyuubi attack. They where sure as hell lucky to be out on a "mission"(or whatever it was) when this happened.
    Huh? The problem extended to more then simply them being moved. Are you saying people who get discriminated against should just take it? That's horrible reasoning, even for a fictional series. And again, that was only a pragmatic possibility, far from a sure thing.

    And there's nothing suggesting that the rest of the clan didn't help against the Kyuubi. Only two Uchiha's were said to have been missing that night, and not a single person has said anything differently. Considering the Uchiha clan was still seen loved afterward, they obviously had to have been helping.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    He "surrendered" to his SON who ALREADY won the fight. He was behind them with a sword.
    And again, no power hungry person would just give up without a fight. They would fight until the end, and they wouldn't be accepting of their lost. When has a villain ever did that?

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Not the same. They where not engaged in a civil war... They had ninja to even take missions...
    How is it not the same thing? The claim was that a weakened village would be open to attack and that would lead to a world war, which is not what we have been shown. If anything, the village would have been much easier to take over in these examples, since the most powerful ninjas and later all the skilled ninjas were gone away from the village.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Because he got what Danzo was telling him.. HE KENW that was the only way out. The "threat" was about what would happen if this events would be allowed to play out.
    He had as much wisdom as a hokage... HE KNEW that was the only way out at this point.. HE KNEW his people are NEVER going to stand down or accept a peace treaty...
    When Danzo offered to "protect" Sasuke so Itachi at least get's something he accepted it... It was because Danzo GAVE him something and not because of a threath.
    No, the threat was that Sasuke would be killed unless he acted, something even Itachi acknowledged. Heck, according to Danzo, the Uchiha clan was gonna lose and the only options for Itachi to stand with them and be destroyed too or stand with Konoha and save Sasuke. No claims of Konoha's destruction or a world war. And clearly Itachi didn't think that the Uchiha's wouldn't have gone for the negotiations seeing as he was gonna attempt to buy Sarutobi more time.

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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    How would theuchiha clan take back their political power whereas the truth is they don't have that kind of power?

    Political power? They don't have that kind of power. They're powerless and talentless to become a hokage/elders.
    No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all your POWER/STRENGTH is no more useful then a squirt gun. And if you cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at will?

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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    What says they didn't have that kind of power and more importantly, why would Koharu state it if it wasn't true? Not a single statement in the series claims that the Uchiha clan didn't have any political power. And considering the entire situation with the higher ups is based on who knew who, that means nothing.

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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    The fact that they led the Konoha Police Force is clear evidence of them having political power..

    And yes, Itachi acted the way he did in order to keep Sasuke alive. That was the whole point of coming back to the village following Hiruzen's death, as a warning for Danzo.

    Itachi was given an ultimatum:

    1) Either all of the Uchiha, including Sasuke, die in combat.
    2) Or Itachi assassinates them himself, but Sasuke can be kept alive.

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  12. #40
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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    The only political power they got is for being the konoha's police force. Nothing more nothing less.

    As far as the manga is concern, the konoha's political system composed of hokage, elders, head of the jounin and anbu. So where the hell is the uchiha align in that system?

    Hokage? Nah.
    Elders? Nah.
    Head of the jounin? Nah.
    Head of the anbu? Nah.

    So what they got is just for being the police force.
    No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all your POWER/STRENGTH is no more useful then a squirt gun. And if you cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at will?

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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    The only political power they got is for being the konoha's police force. Nothing more nothing less.

    As far as the manga is concern, the konoha's political system composed of hokage, elders, head of the jounin and anbu. So where the hell is the uchiha align in that system?

    Hokage? Nah.
    Elders? Nah.
    Head of the jounin? Nah.
    Head of the anbu? Nah.

    So what they got is just for being the police force.
    Being Hokage means that you are the Head of the Jounin/Anbu/everybody else, so that position is one and the same. The elders are more or less only advisors to the Hokage, the Hokage is ultimately the one that is in charge of making the decisions.

    In any case, I never said that they had much political power, but they still did have some. If you lead a Police Force, then you by definition have political power in the form of judicial power. Officially, they were the ones who were in charge of arresting and sentencing criminals.

    The power structure in Konoha is very centralized. The Hokage is both the Commander-in-chief and the de facto leader. The Anbu is the Secret Police and answers directly to the Hokage. The Jounins etc. make up the Military and thus also answers to the Hokage. The Konoha Military Police Force, on the other hand, is merly the village's official police force. They are at the bottom of the political structure.
    Last edited by Azuma; May 18, 2013 at 04:51 AM.

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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    The only political power they got is for being the konoha's police force. Nothing more nothing less.

    As far as the manga is concern, the konoha's political system composed of hokage, elders, head of the jounin and anbu. So where the hell is the uchiha align in that system?

    Hokage? Nah.
    Elders? Nah.
    Head of the jounin? Nah.
    Head of the anbu? Nah.

    So what they got is just for being the police force.
    Again, where was such a claim ever made and why would Koharu say otherwise?

    And how are you gonna say what the Konoha political system intels when it's never been shown in depth and only been revealed in pieces here and there? Need I point out that long ago, we all thought that the Hokage had complete power, only to discover that the council holds just as much if not more power? Or that the Hokage must be voted in by the jounins of the village even after being chosen? Danzo doesn't have any of those roles, yet he clearly been shown with plenty of political power. And the "head" of Anbu would be the Hokage, who's the one who gives them orders.

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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Being Hokage means that you are the Head of the Jounin/Anbu/everybody else, so that position is one and the same. The elders are more or less only advisors to the Hokage, the Hokage is ultimately the one that is in charge of making the decisions.

    In any case, I never said that they had much political power, but they still did have some. If you lead a Police Force, then you by definition have political power in the form of judicial power. Officially, they were the ones who were in charge of arresting and sentencing criminals.

    The power structure in Konoha is very centralized. The Hokage is both the Commander-in-chief and the de facto leader. The Anbu is the Secret Police and answers directly to the Hokage. The Jounins etc. make up the Military and thus also answers to the Hokage. The Konoha Military Police Force, on the other hand, is merly the village's official police force. They are at the bottom of the political structure.
    Exactly. I'm just that curious on how the hell that the uchiha was trying to take back their POLITICAL POWER. Whereas the only political power they got is just for being the police force.

    And no. Shikaku is the head of the jounin while some unknown anbu is the head of the anbu. Remember when they elected a hokage after nagato destroyed the konoha? Shikaku was there sitted at the last sit of that council.

    Based from that scene, the konoha's political system/council is composed of hokage, 3elders, head of anbu and the head of the jounin.

    Now, if they planned their coup to take back their political power, then does it mean that the konoha was stripping out their role as a police force?
    No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all your POWER/STRENGTH is no more useful then a squirt gun. And if you cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at will?

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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    Oh right, I forgot about that. The Hokage is definitely the head of the Anbu though, it's been stated several times.

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    Re: Mikoto was a Senju!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Again, where was such a claim ever made and why would Koharu say otherwise?

    And how are you gonna say what the Konoha political system intels when it's never been shown in depth and only been revealed in pieces here and there? Need I point out that long ago, we all thought that the Hokage had complete power, only to discover that the council holds just as much if not more power? Or that the Hokage must be voted in by the jounins of the village even after being chosen? Danzo doesn't have any of those roles, yet he clearly been shown with plenty of political power. And the "head" of Anbu would be the Hokage, who's the one who gives them orders.
    You're basing your arguments from koharu's statement. We don't even know if it was just a mistranslation or not.

    No. The hokage holds much more power. And the reason why danzo holds plenty of political power is simply because hiruzen just let him do as he pleases.

    No, I'm talking about the konoha's council. The manga already shown us that shikaku was known as the head of the jounin. That's why he was part of the konoha's council. He was even voted kakashi as the new hokage,

    Now, does it mean that the nara clan hold a political power simply because their clan leader is part of the konoha's political power? No. So what makes you think that theuchiha clan has a political power? The konoha is all about the democracy. They voted for their leader/s. So it's hard to imagine that the uchiha was planning their coup to take back their political power. It's clearly that they planned their coup to take the konoha's power. Accept it already, the uchiha is a greedy clan. They planned to take on something that doesn't belong to them.
    No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all your POWER/STRENGTH is no more useful then a squirt gun. And if you cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at will?

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