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Thread: Hulk's Stoppin In To Say Hi

  1. #151
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    Re: Two Weeks Left In This Semester Means Crunch Time For Hulk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Hystzen View Post
    im just a cynic ...and i prefer science to back up ideas of fables ( mythbusters FTW) .

    also damn the bible seriously....it is prob the most famous and worshipped fairy tale to date.

    no doubt there man called jesus no doubt he was not white...

    but the he is a false symbol ...not a marytr like they claim.

    also the amount of wars caused by christanity is huge from a faith where we shou not kill. heck even the vatican had a place where the pope could sit and watch people been crucified.
    Now what ground do you have to say its a Fairy Tale? My thing is that your just spurting out things your assuming based on the fact that you can't analyze it and proove with with science. I hope you do realize that science can't prove everything either. Science doesn't prove love, it doesn't prove beauty, it doesn't prove the existence of any of us, only gives theories. Many of the things you believe in science are still theories, because no one can go back millions of years to that event and say it exactly happened the way it did.

    Again the problem is that if you theologically go about something and recognize why the church was created, and that the people in the Church aren't what makes the Church what it is, It is God who makes the Church what it is, then that changes your view on it. Again I do not deny what the Church did in the past was bad, BUT that doesn't change the fact that God established the Church through Jesus Christ and that it has a place in Humanity in order to allow people to get in touch with God at a personal (and I'd argue physical level through the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist). That is the MAIN purpose of the Church, and whether or not it strayed down a wrong path, doesn't take away that purpose from it. All big things including humanity itself, hits road bumps, and goes wrong ways at times. Anywhere where humans are involved leaves room for some error because humans are limited and can't be perfect. So even in regards to the Church error is possible but HUMANITY is not what makes the Church what it is and as a result even in the wake of mistakes the purpose of the Church is not lost because thats not humanities decision to make.


    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium View Post
    Speaking of Christianity. Do you mind if I ask you some questions i always wanted to understand?....Being a nice person I am sure you will say "of course old chap". So ill just proceed to ask them instead of wasting a post.

    The thing is, I understand the difference between Protestants and Catholics, the reformation, Martin Luther etc. We were taught that in school. However something that was never discussed at all, is the eastern orthodox church. I looked into it once but it got too complicated and i gave up. So, how exactly is the orthodox church different from the catholic church?
    Sure . Well what I would say to this is that this was the first major split of Christianity. A few issues arose between the East and the West and these influenced the split. One was the change made to the Nicene Creed in which a phrase was reworded in order to better clarify a doctrine regarding the trinity, but the east was absent at this decision so they personally felt it was forced upon then (although they actually believe the exact same thing ). The others were the primacy of the pope over other bishops that was disputed. Also there were cultural changes such as the East being Greek oriented while the West was more Roman and Latin based. These were the basis for the split.

    In our times though and through ecumenical discussion, the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics for the most part have the exact same Theology and believe the exact same things. The only issue today would be the primacy of the pope that is keeping the two apart.
    Last edited by Arrogance; December 10, 2010 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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  3. #152
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    Re: Two Weeks Left In This Semester Means Crunch Time For Hulk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrogance View Post
    Now what ground do you have to say its a Fairy Tale? My thing is that your just spurting out things your assuming based on the fact that you can't analyze it and proove with with science. I hope you do realize that science can't prove everything either. Science doesn't prove love, it doesn't prove beauty, it doesn't prove the existence of any of us, only gives theories. Many of the things you believe in science are still theories, because no one can go back millions of years to that event and say it exactly happened the way it did.
    Oh I bet science does have the potential to explain everything. Of course it does not yet - It's a process, which cannot be expected to be finished at some point. However, it's a process which could possibly end in explaining everything.
    Love? Hormons affecting the human body and brain. The system makes sense in terms of evolution, first to achieve to give birth to a child with a biologically "good" partner and afterwards to make sure that father and mother (possibly) stay together for some time so the birth was not in vain as the child still has to grow up before it can keep itself alive.

    Beauty? Depends, but I'm certain evolution theory also offers many possiblities to explain it.
    Such as: Evolution preferred men who search for young, healthy women because they have the best odds to give birth to and raise a healthy child. Also, not everywhere "beauty" (at least the beauty of humans) is rated equally; Studies show that in poorer countries where people starve, heavier people seem more attractive to the other gender - obviously makes sense.
    Women have different systems again, their taste is less simple as they have to compromise... a perfectly strong and healthy partner is great for reproduction as good genes might mix in, but there might be a lot of competition for him on the other hand so me might not help raising the resulting children - bad for making sure the own genes survive.
    Less "good" partners might reduce the chances of the own genes to sustain in the future because the children might be weaker; But the competition for might be lower, so he might stay to raise children as he won't have much of a chance to get any different partners anyways.
    I don't have any special expertise or in-depth knowledge in this field, but it offers a lot of plausible explanations to me so I stick to it. (Also recalling a study here which says that women tend to search strong "macho" men for one night stands, but preferr less attractive ones for longer partnerships)

    Beauty of arts etc. of course depends, I certainly can't explain it with my knowledge - but it seems likely that there are other patterns behind it which can be explained scientifically.
    (Another example: Bird songs appear soothing to many persons and scientists guess that it might be, because hearing singing birds ment "no dangerous foe nearby" in past times. )

    About the religious discussion I posted a lot in the according thread:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...36#post2129036

    Imo religion just came into existence to explain the existence of things, then was used as a source of comfort ("live sucks, but afterlife will be better") and so different religions evolved: The only reason why people believe in it is 1) religious "indoctrination", or, more neutral: education; 2) search for comfort; 3) traditions; 4) not knowing the alternatives (atheists and other non-believing groups scored absolutely best in world wide/general religious knowledge in a recent study, got that link somewhere in the General World Topics).
    Last edited by Roflkopt3r; December 10, 2010 at 12:18 PM.

  4. #153
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    Re: Two Weeks Left In This Semester Means Crunch Time For Hulk - Part 1

    there alot of fairy tale like exaggerated parts

    feeding five thousand..im dead now im alive curing lepers etc.

    of course i only mentioning the gospels of jesus not the other parts.

    if no bible and someone wrote harry potter at time when bible was done (im dead now im alive thanks to love scarifice etc etc) then he would be your "messiah". The fact the bible was written so far long in timeline after middle ages ..if it written before or after death of jesus it might be more beliveable (without the usual extras of miracles).

    then is the fact jesus is jewish not christian which was turned

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    Re: Two Weeks Left In This Semester Means Crunch Time For Hulk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Hystzen View Post
    there alot of fairy tale like exaggerated parts

    feeding five thousand..im dead now im alive curing lepers etc.

    of course i only mentioning the gospels of jesus not the other parts.

    if no bible and someone wrote harry potter at time when bible was done (im dead now im alive thanks to love scarifice etc etc) then he would be your "messiah". The fact the bible was written so far long in timeline after middle ages ..if it written before or after death of jesus it might be more beliveable (without the usual extras of miracles).

    then is the fact jesus is jewish not christian which was turned
    Jesus was Jewish I don't deny that, but one must understand that the New Testament and the Old are not separate. The whole point of Christ is that he fulfills prophecies of the Old Testament and also brings the whole world into the picture. It is through the Jews that God wished to reach the whole world.

    Also its not just a fairy tail in that Christians were in practice before the Bible was written. Immediately following Christ's death, the Apostles went out and built the Church. First was Oral Tradition but then it was recognized that there needs to be written work to correspond to the Oral Tradition. To back this up, one can look tot he earliest writings of the New Testament, the letters of Paul. In these letters he is writing to Christian communities already establish in order to help and guide them. These communities were not established because of the Bible, but they were already in practice after the Apostles went out and orally presented what they had witnessed in Christ. The writings came after because it was more important to get the ball rolling instead of sitting down and writing everything.

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  7. #155
    MH's Best Artist 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000!
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    Re: Two Weeks Left In This Semester Means Crunch Time For Hulk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by BBB Banana View Post
    Oh wait. I know I can believe in it without understanding it but I can't describe something I don't understand, which is why I don't believe the Bible or the Qur'an or any holy book.

    And I meant that if God is so complex that we will never understand him then we should put our efforts in something else, like saving our planet, which is his main creation and is in danger because of all we did, instead of trying to understand him.

    @Hyst
    Don't forget the thousands of Innocent people who were killed by the church.
    I think that after all the things that the Catholic church made it's lost all of its authority and believing on it, it's like believing on Hitler only because he says he has a good cause behind all of his bad actions.
    In my eyes,the Bible is not a holy book.It's more like an attempt of humanity to understand and explain it.The Bible is full of imagery,it's not like all those things are fairy tales,which really happened.Let's take paradise and Adam and Eva as an example.The people who wrote the bible did not want to state that there is a god who went like "Oh lulz,i create peoples and give dem life and then i takes it away,because dey been bad boys.",they created a metaphor.It stands for human needs,or more like what we need to be happy and satisfied.In paradise Adam and Eva had everything:endless amounts of food,freedom,no work,no clothes,no shame, and all that.They were happy.But after they were expelled from paradise,they had what we have now:work,limited amounts of food....you know the rest,as you probably experienced it yourself.It's not all that magical and those miracles didn't exist,so if people belive in the bible,they believe in the pieces of advice in it.At least that's what i always thought,as God is nothing more than an attempt to explain what the human mind can not comprehend.

    As for all the innocent people dying and God(in case he exists) not doing anything about it.In my opinion,God only gave humanity life.Then he just let it evolve and make its own mistakes.If a teacher would always show you the results and wouldn't let you make any mistakes,you wouldn't learn anything,would you?God is teaching humanity this way.He once even helped humanity out by using Jesus to purify humanity and to show something,but humanity didn't take this seriously and now you see what we got.God is letting us feel our own mistakes.

    I personally don't really believe in God,but i'm not really against it either.

  8. #156
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Roflkopt3r's Avatar
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    Re: Two Weeks Left In This Semester Means Crunch Time For Hulk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrogance View Post
    Jesus was Jewish I don't deny that, but one must understand that the New Testament and the Old are not separate. The whole point of Christ is that he fulfills prophecies of the Old Testament and also brings the whole world into the picture. It is through the Jews that God wished to reach the whole world.

    Also its not just a fairy tail in that Christians were in practice before the Bible was written. Immediately following Christ's death, the Apostles went out and built the Church. First was Oral Tradition but then it was recognized that there needs to be written work to correspond to the Oral Tradition. To back this up, one can look tot he earliest writings of the New Testament, the letters of Paul. In these letters he is writing to Christian communities already establish in order to help and guide them. These communities were not established because of the Bible, but they were already in practice after the Apostles went out and orally presented what they had witnessed in Christ. The writings came after because it was more important to get the ball rolling instead of sitting down and writing everything.
    The order of christianity spreading and the bible doesn't seem so surprising to me though, even to explain it without the apostles or actual miracles to happen.
    Someone - perhaps Jesus, seemingly he did exist although he certainly did not have supernatural powers imo - founded a new cult (not that this would've been rare over the course of history), it was successful for some reason (many previous religions or cults have been successful, this isn't special either).
    It spreads orally, and at some point someone or a community packs all of this stuff into a book. Happens.
    Personally I guess that the miracle stories of Jesus probably mostly had their first appearance in the Bible, perhaps to suit the old testamony. After all Jesus idea was to reform Judaism, so the referrence to and includance of the old testamony made sense.

    It would've rather surprised me if the bible had been the beginning, I don't think that it happened a lot that a book itself was the very beginning of such a cult.
    Last edited by Roflkopt3r; December 10, 2010 at 12:27 PM.

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    Re: Two Weeks Left In This Semester Means Crunch Time For Hulk - Part 1

    we graphic designers claim most stupid things on adverts to draw more people in . the bible is similar with its added stuff of miracles. it was to draw more people in that it

    yes there was religion before but to boost followers they added stuff to lure people in ...which to me is not something that is powerfull as religion should do..it should be more honest .

    im not bashing you been religious to me it not logical (any relgion doesnt make sense to me)

    also the fact they altered his birth to xmas for making money and creating the whole idea is even more WTF .

  10. #158
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    Re: Two Weeks Left In This Semester Means Crunch Time For Hulk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Roflkopt3r View Post
    Oh I bet science does have the potential to explain everything. Of course it does not yet - It's a process, which cannot be expected to be finished at some point. However, it's a process which could possibly end in explaining everything.
    Love? Hormons affecting the human body and brain. The system makes sense in terms of evolution, first to achieve to give birth to a child with a biologically "good" partner and afterwards to make sure that father and mother (possibly) stay together for some time so the birth was not in vain as the child still has to grow up before it can keep itself alive.

    Beauty? Depends, but I'm certain evolution theory also offers many possiblities to explain it.
    Such as: Evolution preferred men who search for young, healthy women because they have the best odds to give birth to and raise a healthy child. Also, not everywhere "beauty" (at least the beauty of humans) is rated equally; Studies show that in poorer countries where people starve, heavier people seem more attractive to the other gender - obviously makes sense.
    Women have different systems again, their taste is less simple as they have to compromise... a perfectly strong and healthy partner is great for reproduction as good genes might mix in, but there might be a lot of competition for him on the other hand so me might not help raising the resulting children - bad for making sure the own genes survive.
    Less "good" partners might reduce the chances of the own genes to sustain in the future because the children might be weaker; But the competition for might be lower, so he might stay to raise children as he won't have much of a chance to get any different partners anyways.
    I don't have any special expertise or in-depth knowledge in this field, but it offers a lot of plausible explanations to me so I stick to it. (Also recalling a study here which says that women tend to search strong "macho" men for one night stands, but preferr less attractive ones for longer partnerships)

    Beauty of arts etc. of course depends, I certainly can't explain it with my knowledge - but it seems likely that there are other patterns behind it which can be explained scientifically.
    (Another example: Bird songs appear soothing to many persons and scientists guess that it might be, because hearing singing birds ment "no dangerous foe nearby" in past times. )

    About the religious discussion I posted a lot in the according thread:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...36#post2129036

    Imo religion just came into existence to explain the existence of things, then was used as a source of comfort ("live sucks, but afterlife will be better") and so different religions evolved: The only reason why people believe in it is 1) religious "indoctrination", or, more neutral: education; 2) search for comfort; 3) traditions; 4) not knowing the alternatives (atheists and other non-believing groups scored absolutely best in world wide/general religious knowledge in a recent study, got that link somewhere in the General World Topics).
    I'm not saying there are signs of these things in the brain and the body, but what I see here is a flipping of the coin. We are obviously human, and we obviously have bodies and brains which allow us to function period. BUT just because there is a system in which we experience these things, doesn't mean its is only because of that system that these things exist. Love is not simply a neural processing, but I would argue that because we are human that is how we experience it because its the only way it can be manifested.

    Also everything you stated are still theories and attempts by scientists to try and explain everything and yet they have still done that. In your claim that religion is man made, then I could also flip the argument that science is a man made method in order to try and prove everything so since your saying religion is man made and unreliable then I would say that Science is man made and also not fully reliable.
    (But I'm not crazy so I don't hold that to be the case). My point is that the universe isn't static and everything can't be proven through science because science is conducted by humans and we are too limited to know everything. THE MAJORITY of science and what science holds to be true is still an act of faith because the majority of things are Theories which we see some evidence for and as a result we trust in it. Evolution is a theory that has evidence to suggest its the case yet no one can actually say they KNOW evolution. You still need to have faith in evolution because you can't possibly go back and say this is exactly how it happened. Heck even gravity is something we have faith in. All we witness in our experience is the effects of Gravity, but one cannot KNOW gravity. You can't have a face to face encounter with the force of Gravity in itself and truly know it.

    But like I said I'm not crazy and I see it reasonable to accept the thing science has dones. BUT that doesn't mean science necessarily PROVES everything, because if you think you as a human can PROVE anything? Then I'd say your crazy. Life itself is a leap of faith because we are surrounded by so much uncertainty.

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  12. #159
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Imperium's Avatar
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    Re: Two Weeks Left In This Semester Means Crunch Time For Hulk - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Roflkopt3r View Post
    Imo religion just came into existence to explain the existence of things, then was used as a source of comfort ("live sucks, but afterlife will be better") and so different religions evolved: The only reason why people believe in it is 1) religious "indoctrination", or, more neutral: education; 2) search for comfort; 3) traditions; 4) not knowing the alternatives (atheists and other non-believing groups scored absolutely best in world wide/general religious knowledge in a recent study, got that link somewhere in the General World Topics).
    I get the feeling at times the most important issue is never discussed when it comes to a discussion between Science vs Religion. While there are many reasons why people believe in religion, the main reason is that religion tells people what will happen to them when they die. The fear of the unknown is a natural human reaction, we don't know what will happen to us and we humans naturally fear that. Look at any major religion, the main theme running through is the afterlife. Religion tell us, it informs us, it reassures us, if you follow a certain path this will happen. Science cannot disprove that, it has never been able to disprove that. And until it can - if indeed it can - religion will exist and people will believe in it. My two cents anyhow.
    Quote Originally Posted by gnut View Post
    ...i could pimp in bulgaria...my game tight like that

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    Re: Two Weeks Left In This Semester Means Crunch Time For Hulk - Part 1

    Closed the thread because I'm getting bombarded here and I need to answer everyone one step at a time. I can't follow what everyone's saying nor can I possibly answer all your posts at once. I'm basically having 5 different conversations at once .


    Quote Originally Posted by Googlez_kun View Post
    In my eyes,the Bible is not a holy book.It's more like an attempt of humanity to understand and explain it.The Bible is full of imagery,it's not like all those things are fairy tales,which really happened.Let's take paradise and Adam and Eva as an example.The people who wrote the bible did not want to state that there is a god who went like "Oh lulz,i create peoples and give dem life and then i takes it away,because dey been bad boys.",they created a metaphor.It stands for human needs,or more like what we need to be happy and satisfied.In paradise Adam and Eva had everything:endless amounts of food,freedom,no work,no clothes,no shame, and all that.They were happy.But after they were expelled from paradise,they had what we have now:work,limited amounts of food....you know the rest,as you probably experienced it yourself.It's not all that magical and those miracles didn't exist,so if people belive in the bible,they believe in the pieces of advice in it.At least that's what i always thought,as God is nothing more than an attempt to explain what the human mind can not comprehend.

    Trust me I don't take Adam and Eve literally either. YET I say that there is a major theological importance in it. It established God as creator (but its not a scientific analysis of how the world was created because the people of that time could not possibly explain that). And is also establishes that there is something wrong with the relationship between Humanity and God. The first sin represents that sin is an innate issue humanity has that hinder its from being with God. In the beginning of the Bible we see the fall of humanity and at the end we see the solution to the problem through Jesus Christ. That is the purpose of Genesis.

    I would say that a major issue is that people try to read the Bible as a History book and because it doesn't have dates and times they find it unreliable. My point is that if it was meant to be a history book then it would have dates and times in it, but its not. Its mean to be a theological book which gives people insight into God and how He relates to humanity. The Bible is mainly a Theological Text of events in history yet not a historical account of events in history, so I find that to be essential in ones approach to understanding the Bible and what its trying to present.


    As for all the innocent people dying and God(in case he exists) not doing anything about it.In my opinion,God only gave humanity life.Then he just let it evolve and make its own mistakes.If a teacher would always show you the results and wouldn't let you make any mistakes,you wouldn't learn anything,would you?God is teaching humanity this way.He once even helped humanity out by using Jesus to purify humanity and to show something,but humanity didn't take this seriously and now you see what we got.God is letting us feel our own mistakes.

    I would disagree with that because then it makes it look like God is not involved with humanity at all, and Jesus Christ and His existence says otherwise. What I would say that Evil is not something God creates, but man creates in his opposition to God. God loved us so much that we have the ability to have Free Will, as God's Will is free. But to truly be Free, one must also have the choice to do the opposite of good. Because God respects our freedom, he permits evil although he is in opposition to it. Its a matter of what God sees as the greater good, and I would say his gift of free will is the greater good.

    I personally don't really believe in God,but i'm not really against it either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roflkopt3r View Post
    The order of christianity spreading and the bible doesn't seem so surprising to me though, even to explain it without the apostles or actual miracles to happen.
    Someone - perhaps Jesus, seemingly he did exist although he certainly did not have supernatural powers imo - founded a new cult (not that this would've been rare over the course of history), it was successful for some reason (many previous religions or cults have been successful, this isn't special either).
    It spreads orally, and at some point someone or a community packs all of this stuff into a book. Happens.
    Personally I guess that the miracle stories of Jesus probably mostly had their first appearance in the Bible, perhaps to suit the old testamony. After all Jesus idea was to reform Judaism, so the referrence to and includance of the old testamony made sense.

    It would've rather surprised me if the bible had been the beginning, I don't think that it happened a lot that a book itself was the very beginning of such a cult.
    But its not a matter of the God aspect of Chirst being added later because Paul in his letters to these communities are addressing issues regarding Jesus's Divinity. This means that Jesus is seen as Divine Before the Gospels themselves and the New Testament was written. Also there have been archaeological finds of prayers from the earliest moments of the Church in which Jesus is Acknowledged as Divine. From what I recall these particular finds of prayers were dated to about ten years before the writing of the Gospels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hystzen View Post
    we graphic designers claim most stupid things on adverts to draw more people in . the bible is similar with its added stuff of miracles. it was to draw more people in that it

    yes there was religion before but to boost followers they added stuff to lure people in ...which to me is not something that is powerfull as religion should do..it should be more honest .

    im not bashing you been religious to me it not logical (any relgion doesnt make sense to me)

    also the fact they altered his birth to xmas for making money and creating the whole idea is even more WTF .
    Well as I was trying to say already is that what is presented in the Bible was already in practice before it was written so I wouldn't say things were added for propaganda. Also another thing to recognize that all the Apostles were killed for their beliefs in Christ.....if this was all about getting a following and to gain power then why would they do it just to be brutally murdered for their beliefs? It just doesn't add up.

    Also Christmas wasn't made for money...its that we don't have an exact date for the Birth of Jesus so a date was set up around a previous roman holiday just to give it a day that was set aside to celebrate such an important event. It wasn't a matter of fabricating a holiday but it was that the Birth if Christ is so important that it needed a day to be celebrated on.



    Threads staying closed because this isn't a discussion I can have with people at such a wide range. Its something I would need to do personally with a person one on one because I find that its a discussion that deserves quality and the quality of response I can offer just cannot be given when I'm addressing 5 different people that are saying 5 different things.
    Last edited by Arrogance; December 10, 2010 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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  15. #161
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member riki's Avatar
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    Re: One Week Left In The Semester Means 4 Papers and 3 Tests for Hulk :/

    Yay, your thread is unlocked.

    When is your last exam?

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    Re: One Week Left In The Semester Means 4 Papers and 3 Tests for Hulk :/

    Quote Originally Posted by riki View Post
    Yay, your thread is unlocked.

    When is your last exam?
    Lets hope that was a good decision

    On Friday I have a paper and an exam due that day and then I'm free .

    Its gonna be a crazy week because I'm basically doing one paper every night and occasionally will need to study in between. Its not that the papers themselves are hard, its just the work load and a matter of me actually doing all the work in general. I'll survive though .

  17. #163
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member riki's Avatar
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    Re: One Week Left In The Semester Means 4 Papers and 3 Tests for Hulk :/

    Yeah, papers aren't so bad. The worst part is getting started. How many pages do you have to write?

    Good luck!

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  19. #164
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Arrogance's Avatar
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    Re: One Week Left In The Semester Means 4 Papers and 3 Tests for Hulk :/

    Quote Originally Posted by riki View Post
    Yeah, papers aren't so bad. The worst part is getting started. How many pages do you have to write?

    Good luck!
    I guess each paper is approximately 5 pages so around 20 pages the whole week. Again its doable but its just the fact that I have to do it .

    Thank you!

  20. #165
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Roflkopt3r's Avatar
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    Re: One Week Left In The Semester Means 4 Papers and 3 Tests for Hulk :/

    Nice the thread is back

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    Moderator message by: Arrogance
    Really don't want to have this conversation today, I opened my thread because I thought this would be done with
    Last edited by Arrogance; December 11, 2010 at 12:25 PM.

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