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Thread: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

  1. #916
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader
    I mean that (A) Sauske doesn't trust other people and (B) Sauske would quickly be frustrated by other people not doing what he told them to do.
    That's obvious, but not such a distinct character flaw that it can be attributed predominately to only two people. Seriously? These very common, very un-specific traits make him like Danzo? That's it? I don't even know if the second one counts since I've never seen either Danzou frustrated, ever.

    Quote Quote:
    Not really when you confine "being like Danzo" to the context that I supplied

    Then you agree it's a very confined, VERY limited, out-of-context comparison?

    Okay. Because if being an untrusting pessimist is the qualifier for Danzo-like qualities, everyone in the manga would be a Danzo-doppleganger. Everyone that's ever given up on someone or lost to hatred for the sake of vengeance or sacrificed the few for the many would be just like Danzou.

  2. #917
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Invader's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    Quote Quote:
    These very common, very un-specific traits make him like Danzo?
    They don't make him a clone of Danzo if that helps. But they do make him highly unlikely to have the patience or disposition to really effect change as a leader. Danzo was faced with a similar problem. People didn't want him to lead. His response? "Well, screw the people. I'll do what I want, get the results that matter, and nuts to all these idiots like Hiruzen that don't have the guts to do what is needed." I see Sauske as being very similarly inclined.

    Let's say a shinobi under Sasuke's leadership goes rogue. This rogue shinobi is going to start a conflict with his actions if he isn't stopped. What do you really see as Sauske's reaction to such an person? Is he going to talk-no-jutsu such a person into changing his mind and heart? Or is he just going to go out there and slap the guy down? Clearly his tendency is the latter, not the former. Naruto would talk the guy to death while letting the guy beat on him like a rug before doing anything.

    Anyway - my whole point is that a Hokage that is going to 'change the system' so that the mistakes of the past aren't repeated just seems like a person who is going to have to be VERY patient, kind, understanding, powerful, and willing to nurture others. And what's Sauske's first response right out the gate? "Screw you guys, I don't care what you think." And I don't see him being much different no matter what the situation is.
    Hidan... Naruto's ONLY real villain!

  3. #918
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    Sauske wanted revenge on Itachi. He ran off the second he heard Itachi was in the village and charged right at him. Impatient.
    Sauske got clocked by Itachi and was shown how weak he was at the time. He didn't want to take the time to learn to grow his power, so he ran off with a known criminal to get power faster. Impatient.
    Sauske is goes hunting for Itachi the second he leaves Orochimaru without gathering intel, or doing anything except getting a crew of brain-dead idiots. Impatience.
    Sauske gets easily manipulated by Tobi with a story of half-truths. Impatience.
    Sauske decides he's going to destroy the whole village without knowing even a fraction of the truth. Impatience.
    This is comical.

    At 13 he was an impulsive revenge bent kid ruled by his emotions while having his mind screwed with by a cursed seal. If you want to compare his emotionsl out bursts 4-5 years ago in his life go right ahead, that's an awful example.

    He left for Orochimaru after thinking about the situation, after seeing his own village wouldn't help him with his goals. This was selfish not impatient. He showed paitence with Kakashi and it didn't get him as far as he wanted. He was right that Orochimaru got him stronger as that's exactly what happened.

    And wow, did you even pay attention the manga. Sasuke carefully put together Hawk, it wasn't something he thought of overnight. He waited for Orochimaru to be at his weakest before attacking him.

    He then actually did go and search for information, or did you forget his whole fight with Deidara? He had the information he needed on his brother already, knew how he fought, he just needed to find him. That isn't impatience, I don't know where you get that idea.

    His getting brainwashed by Obito and wanting to destroy Konoha is not impatience but stupidity based on his psychotic revenge fuled mind that was manipulated by Obtio when he was vulnerable. He was maniuplated much like Naruto has been manipulated by the Kyuubi on several occasions.

    Both of them grew up and learned though, became less emotional and more logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    And on and on and on and on. Sauske is not a patient master of waiting for information before making snap decisions. He's an easily manipulated bumpkin who runs around like a chicken with its head cut off the second he hears fractional rumors and half-truths. Next.
    And on and on and on, wow what an explanation. He's not easily manipulated, he's been manipulated once in his life, by Obito, who took advantage of him.

    I hate to bring Naruto into this, but he's just as if not easily manipulated as Sasuke, and by his own emotions no less. He doesn't even need others to manipulate him, he used to lose control of himself and let the Kyuubi take control.

    Notice I used the word used to, much like Sasuke used to do all the things you describe. You fail to see he changed like so many others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    Reading comprehension 101. Step 1. READ what someone says. I never said I wanted him to take 20 minutes in this situation. I said IF he had 20 minutes he STILL WOULD NOT BOTHER taking the time to explain himself because that's not Sauske's style. He's never done it before, and it is foolishness to assume he would start now. As I've said multiple times, THAT is what would make him an epic failure as a Hokage. He won't listen to people. He won't teach. He won't explain himself. He'll just lay down rules and expect everyone will do what he says because he said it.
    I read what you said perfectly, you seemed to use that situation as a reason that he wouldn't explain things to anyone, which isn't a good example. Already pointed out how he isn't as impatient as you make him out to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    As I've said - Sauske has shown no inclination at any point for explaining himself, justifying behavior, or otherwise being an 'educator'. Tolerance of ignorance is a critical aspect of teaching because every student comes to you ignorant. It is your job to provide the information to make them NOT ignorant. And that's just not Sasuke's thing. His modus operandi is to make abrupt statements and then ignore everyone. And we're supposed to believe now he's going to be a better orator, persuader, and educator than anyone else? Stretches credibility.
    When has he ever had to explain himself for anything? The whole point of him meeting the Hokages was so he could gain the information he lacked. Sasuke has never had to inform anyone of anything because he was searching for revenge the entire manga. It was only until recently when he realized what her really wanted that he would have to explain anything to anyone. And again, he hasn't even had the chance to do that yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    That was all to satisfy his own selfishness. He needed Juugo & Karin, so he kept Juugo from going nuts. It wasn't any form of compassion or caring. It was just so he could get to Itachi. That's it. The ONE time he seemed to do something because he cared was when he saved them from Killer Bee. That's the only time I can recall he ever did something that had even a panel of art suggesting he was motivated by comradeship rather than selfishness.
    How do you know? Sasuke has shown glimpses of thinking of Team 7 and thinking of Hawk when in life or death situations or in emotional ones showing he does indeed care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    Naruto is indeed a hothead, and prone to running off and doing his own thing against orders. But he doesn't generally act against the village, or totally disregard his superiors, or otherwise behave insubordinately. Sauske does/did all those things. And Naruto's 'leadership' isn't military, but philosophical.
    He doesn't behave insubordinately? That's all he's ever done, even most recently telling the Kages to go fuck themselves I'm gonna do my own thing. If it wasn't for Itachi and Kurama letting him do whatever he wants with his power he would have been captured and killed by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    I'm not inclined to beat up on Hiruzen. Every Kage has had hundreds/thousands of people die under their watch. I fail to see how Sauske has got any attitude or approach that would have produced a better result.
    We have no idea what Naruto, Sasuke, or Kakashi's approach to being Hokage would be so that is a moot point. As far as his attitude goes, Tobirama had a terrible attitude, as did other Kages so that doesn't matter. What matters is what he wants to accomplish, and he's specifically stated he wants to correct the mistakes of the past Kages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    Lol - this is the most romantically exaggerated description of Sauske's miserable, selfish existence that I've ever heard. Living in caves with Orochimaru = "traveling the nations in search of his brother". Myopic obsession with revenge is some sort of noble, "going to hell and back". Being shown that his entire universe was pure idiocy is having "the wisdom of the Hokages". Where I come from they call that "putting lipstick on the pig" and/or "polishing the crap".
    Miserable selfish existence, how quaint. He's spent the past two years in manga time away from Orochimaru traveling the world. And he hasn't gone to hell and back? He's had his world torn apart several times, been mind fucked several times.

    As for putting lipstick on a pig, Sasuke has always been far more intelligent than 95% of everyone in the manga. Problem is he was misguided and mentally and emotionally destroyed thanks to his brother and Konoha's actions.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  5. #919
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Xiraiya's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    Spoiler show

    The odd similarities I keep seeing between Hashirama/Madara and Sasuke/Naruto just pile up.

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  7. #920
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    Some people are unaware what the term selfish even implies. The analogies are downright hilarious.

  8. #921
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Invader's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    Quote Quote:
    This is comical.
    Me having to explain such plain truths - yes.

    Quote Quote:
    He's not easily manipulated,
    Sauske's whole life is one long series of ways he has been repeatedly manipulated. To say he is not easily manipulated is nonsense. Foe someone so hard to manipulate, it sure seems to happen a lot.

    Quote Quote:
    I hate to bring Naruto into this, but he's just as if not easily manipulated as Sasuke, and by his own emotions no less. He doesn't even need others to manipulate him, he used to lose control of himself and let the Kyuubi take control.
    You should have listened to your first instinct and not brought him into it because it destroys your own argument. Naruto "let" the Kyuubi take control once at the bridge. He 'lost' control of himself once as well, when Pain impaled Hinata. Otherwise there are no examples of Naruto either being manipulated or losing control. Well - I take that back - he was manipulated into getting that scroll in chapter 1. Stack that against Sauske's life of almost purely being manipulated and there's really no comparison between the two. Naruto is far less prone to manipulation than Captain Emo.

    Quote Quote:
    I read what you said perfectly
    Then why did you deliberately misapply what I said? I repeat it again. I never once said that Sauske should have stopped for 20 minutes to explain himself - as you implied I did. I said that "EVEN IF HE HAD THAT TIME" he would not bother explaining himself because that's how he rolls.

    Quote Quote:
    When has he ever had to explain himself for anything?
    He could have explained himself to Naruto, Kakashi, Tobi/Obito, Itachi, Karin, Juugo, Suigetsu, or any number of people on multiple occasions. His response is always - to the effect - "I don't care what you think. This is what I'm going to do and if you don't like it then I'll kill you too." But the whole point is that IF he wants to be Hokage then he is going to HAVE to start explaining himself. A lot. And given his track record, he isn't the kind of guy to exhibit that trait. Which makes him a terrible choice as a leader.

    Quote Quote:
    What matters is what he wants to accomplish, and he's specifically stated he wants to correct the mistakes of the past Kages.
    Which he has zero ability to do since he has such rotten leadership qualities. He heard Hashirama's story, saw Tobirama's attitude, and lived through Hiruzen's era. You think he'd have learned something about how being a smarmy prick causes failure as a leader. Apparently he didn't.

    Quote Quote:
    He's spent the past two years in manga time away from Orochimaru
    In what particular realm of fantasy did this fevered imagination take place? There's no mention in the manga of Sauske spending two seconds outside of Orochimaru's caves, let alone two yeaers just wandering around free as a bird so he could 'travel the world'. You're talking like Sauske spent the majority of his time as some sort of Jiraya-esque pilgrim where he studied humanity, sought inner peace, and otherwise became some sort of guru. Give the chapter and page in the manga where this is discussed, or it didn't happen.
    Hidan... Naruto's ONLY real villain!

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  10. #922
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    IMO the problem with Sasuke being any sort of leader isn't necessarily his similarities to people like Danzou/Madara. The real problem is that Sasuke's the ultimate flip-flopper, whose motivations are guided by the nose as the plot dictates. He made a big deal about killing and forbade Suigetsu from killing, but then started killing without so much as a single thought bubble to tell the reader what the fuck is going on. He went from remembering Team 7 to gain a powerup to stabbing Karin next to the heart because... I guess it was inconvenient to headshot someone with an attack made of lightning.

    The truth is that it was simply more dramatic for Kishi to portray Sasuke this way, but it pisses off people who pay attention and expect consistency from a character whose defining trait is inconsistency. I don't blame people for praising the entertainment value of characters like Sasuke/Minato/Itachi. They're fucking cool. They were designed to make you feel like that. But being cool doesn't make an inconsistent character into a quality creation. You can slather frosting on shit but it'll just taste like frosting-covered-shit for anybody brave enough to actually consume the entire thing, instead of just licking the surface like so many fans seem to do.

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  12. #923
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Invader's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    Quote Quote:
    You can slather frosting on **** but it'll just taste like frosting-covered-**** for anybody brave enough to actually consume the entire thing, instead of just licking the surface like so many fans seem to do.
    An apt - if revolting - analogy.
    Hidan... Naruto's ONLY real villain!

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  14. #924
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    They don't make him a clone of Danzo if that helps. But they do make him highly unlikely to have the patience or disposition to really effect change as a leader. Danzo was faced with a similar problem. People didn't want him to lead. His response? "Well, screw the people. I'll do what I want, get the results that matter, and nuts to all these idiots like Hiruzen that don't have the guts to do what is needed." I see Sauske as being very similarly inclined.
    That's very questionable. And Danzo literally waited years in the shadows before making his move. Not at all sure how he wasn't patience. And he did go out of his way to "rightfully" achieve the title, as oppose to using his means to simply take it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    Let's say a shinobi under Sasuke's leadership goes rogue. This rogue shinobi is going to start a conflict with his actions if he isn't stopped. What do you really see as Sauske's reaction to such an person? Is he going to talk-no-jutsu such a person into changing his mind and heart? Or is he just going to go out there and slap the guy down? Clearly his tendency is the latter, not the former. Naruto would talk the guy to death while letting the guy beat on him like a rug before doing anything.
    Sasuke would probably be the person in the best position to understand someone going rogue, since he did that himself, and probably would be willing to help the person so they wouldn't need to go rogue. That aside, why would the former reaction be wrong? You're acting as if every person can simply be changed easily. What happens if the person is just bad? Like Kakuzu or Hidan? Or corrupted like Orochimaru and Nagato? No amount of talking will change the former and by the time the latter changes, they've already done a bunch of damage? Seems far more dangerous trying to talk everyone down then it would be to simply deal with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    Anyway - my whole point is that a Hokage that is going to 'change the system' so that the mistakes of the past aren't repeated just seems like a person who is going to have to be VERY patient, kind, understanding, powerful, and willing to nurture others. And what's Sauske's first response right out the gate? "Screw you guys, I don't care what you think." And I don't see him being much different no matter what the situation is.
    How would someone like the previous Hokages be the type of person to change the system? Hashirama, Sarutobi, Minato, and Tsunade were all those things, along with Jiraiya. It makes more sense a person unlike those things would be in in a better position to do differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    IMO the problem with Sasuke being any sort of leader isn't necessarily his similarities to people like Danzou/Madara. The real problem is that Sasuke's the ultimate flip-flopper, whose motivations are guided by the nose as the plot dictates. He made a big deal about killing and forbade Suigetsu from killing, but then started killing without so much as a single thought bubble to tell the reader what the fuck is going on. He went from remembering Team 7 to gain a powerup to stabbing Karin next to the heart because... I guess it was inconvenient to headshot someone with an attack made of lightning.
    There's a big difference between simple flip-flopping and developing as a person. Though I'm not sure how him choosing to kill is him flip-flopping when his orders were for the others, or how it's out of character that he would put his goal above everything else, including teammates.

  15. #925
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader
    They don't make him a clone of Danzo if that helps. But they do make him highly unlikely to have the patience or disposition to really effect change as a leader. Danzo was faced with a similar problem. People didn't want him to lead. His response? "Well, screw the people. I'll do what I want, get the results that matter, and nuts to all these idiots like Hiruzen that don't have the guts to do what is needed." I see Sauske as being very similarly inclined.
    I agree partially. I agree he's not a clone of Danzou, and I agree he'll make "the hard choice" like Danzou, aswell as the fact that he's as untrusting as Danzou. I don't think that he'll do something akin to the Uchiha massacre though because he's following Itachi's wishes finally, and harming his own citizens, or doing anything to outsiders that would cause an all-out war, would spit on that wish.

    I think you'd be better off comparing him to Raikage than Danzou, but that's just me.

    Quote Quote:
    Let's say a shinobi under Sasuke's leadership goes rogue. This rogue shinobi is going to start a conflict with his actions if he isn't stopped. What do you really see as Sauske's reaction to such an person? Is he going to talk-no-jutsu such a person into changing his mind and heart? Or is he just going to go out there and slap the guy down? Clearly his tendency is the latter, not the former. Naruto would talk the guy to death while letting the guy beat on him like a rug before doing anything.
    You're right. Sasuke would strike the guy down, and Naruto would talk the guy down instead. And then the guy'd escape, become the next Orochimaru, and attack the village later (like when Oro was spared by Sarutobi). This is the exact thing Sasuke's trying to prevent. Not saying it's right or wrong, but in his eyes he would have protected the village by bringing to justice the guy who was harming it, or preparing to harm it, in the future. His mantra as Hokage will be seen by villagers as "Rule with an iron fist." In actuality, in Sasuke's eyes his mantra is "WWID: What would Itachi do?"

    Quote Quote:
    Anyway - my whole point is that a Hokage that is going to 'change the system' so that the mistakes of the past aren't repeated just seems like a person who is going to have to be VERY patient, kind, understanding, powerful, and willing to nurture others. And what's Sauske's first response right out the gate? "Screw you guys, I don't care what you think." And I don't see him being much different no matter what the situation is.
    Gotta disagree. Hashirama's patience resulted in Madara's aquisition of the Kyuubi and attack on the village. Sarutobi's patience resulted in Orochimaru killing him, and a number of his villagers. At some point there's gotta be a leader who has the foresight to say "If I'm soft on these guys they're gonna get bold and try something dangerous. Best to put them down before they get the chance."

    If Tobirama had said something like this you guys would be cheering, lol. As for you not seeing him being much different, remember: Sasuke's already surprised you. Twice.

    ---------- Post added at 04:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist
    IMO the problem with Sasuke being any sort of leader isn't necessarily his similarities to people like Danzou/Madara. The real problem is that Sasuke's the ultimate flip-flopper, whose motivations are guided by the nose as the plot dictates. He made a big deal about killing and forbade Suigetsu from killing, but then started killing without so much as a single thought bubble to tell the reader what the fuck is going on. He went from remembering Team 7 to gain a powerup to stabbing Karin next to the heart because... I guess it was inconvenient to headshot someone with an attack made of lightning.
    Well, that was orchestrated by Kishi to show Sasuke slowly becoming more controlled by his hatred. It was a gradual build so that people would see him change over time. Now that Sasuke knows the truth it should be tougher for him to decend into madness, as he knows it's not his true nature. Then again, he only goes full psycho when the memory of his brother is being tainted so... his leadership skills should only really diminish in emotional situations like that. And potentially, over time, with people to protect, he would be able to focus on that rather than looking for someone to hate. Maybe.

  16. #926
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ryr's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    IMO the problem with Sasuke being any sort of leader isn't necessarily his similarities to people like Danzou/Madara. The real problem is that Sasuke's the ultimate flip-flopper
    The term "flip-flopper" is used to denote someone who keeps changing his/her mind.

    Sasuke changed his stance once in the entire manga.

    Seriously, the accusations do not even make sense.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Darkdrone's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 631 Discussion / 632 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    The term "flip-flopper" is used to denote someone who keeps changing his/her mind.

    Sasuke changed his stance once in the entire manga.

    Seriously, the accusations do not even make sense.
    The day Sasuke becomes Hokage is the day I will eat frosted cover shit. It aint going to happen, he did too many unlawful actions and doesn't command the respect of the village.


    "It’s not always the talented that wins! But the ones who won because they persevere!"

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