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Thread: The good or bad Sasuke, which one?

  1. #16
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: The good or bad Sasuke, which one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    But Kimamaro spouted all that nonsense for Orochimaru's sake, because Sasuke was his next container? In other words, Juugo should be following Sasuke because of Orochimaru. But that fell apart.
    Kimimaro did it because he felt it was the right thing to do. He was abandoned by his clan and Orochimaru gave him a purpose. Juugo needed a purpose to, so I suppose it was the easiest thing for him to cling to since he had no idea what to do with his life.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: The good or bad Sasuke, which one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Kimimaro did it because he felt it was the right thing to do. He was abandoned by his clan and Orochimaru gave him a purpose. Juugo needed a purpose to, so I suppose it was the easiest thing for him to cling to since he had no idea what to do with his life.
    But Kimimaro meant for Juugo to follow Sasuke for Orochimaru's sake, not for Sasuke's. That's why it doesn't really make sense that he's loyal more to Sasuke than to Orochimaru.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: The good or bad Sasuke, which one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    But Kimimaro meant for Juugo to follow Sasuke for Orochimaru's sake, not for Sasuke's. That's why it doesn't really make sense that he's loyal more to Sasuke than to Orochimaru.
    I have to re-read it but I think he simply wanted to protect Sasuke because that's what Kimi did and died for. The reasons don't seem to matter too much to Juugo, after all what does he have to gain by following Sasuke? Kimi is dead, is he just going to follow him until he dies?

    I personally think Juugo follows Sasuke because he respects him and because Sasuke helps him and because they are similar in some ways. The Kimi thing is just an excuse.

    Like why does Suigetsu follow Sasuke? For power? Sasuke is interested in power, he was interested in revenge. Suigetsu wanted the Seven Swords, and yes Sasuke helped him get one, but then he broke it and lost it.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The good or bad Sasuke, which one?

    Good one. Can't w8 to see Sasuke fight on Naruto's side once again

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    Re: The good or bad Sasuke, which one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I have to re-read it but I think he simply wanted to protect Sasuke because that's what Kimi did and died for. The reasons don't seem to matter too much to Juugo, after all what does he have to gain by following Sasuke? Kimi is dead, is he just going to follow him until he dies?

    I personally think Juugo follows Sasuke because he respects him and because Sasuke helps him and because they are similar in some ways. The Kimi thing is just an excuse.

    Like why does Suigetsu follow Sasuke? For power? Sasuke is interested in power, he was interested in revenge. Suigetsu wanted the Seven Swords, and yes Sasuke helped him get one, but then he broke it and lost it.
    Kimimaro valued only Orochimaru and everything that was related to him. Since he was ill, Sasuke was the next container and something that is precious to orochimaru. That's why Kimimaro paid so much attention to him. He then passed that on to Juugo and Suigetsu who somewhere in the middle of Sasuke betryaing orochimaru defected to Sasuke. As simple as that.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: The good or bad Sasuke, which one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I have to re-read it but I think he simply wanted to protect Sasuke because that's what Kimi did and died for. The reasons don't seem to matter too much to Juugo, after all what does he have to gain by following Sasuke? Kimi is dead, is he just going to follow him until he dies?

    I personally think Juugo follows Sasuke because he respects him and because Sasuke helps him and because they are similar in some ways. The Kimi thing is just an excuse.

    Like why does Suigetsu follow Sasuke? For power? Sasuke is interested in power, he was interested in revenge. Suigetsu wanted the Seven Swords, and yes Sasuke helped him get one, but then he broke it and lost it.
    I wouldn't call leaving Juugo (and Suigetsu) to die constitutes helping them. He clearly stopped caring about either of them yet they went through the trouble of bringing him Orochimaru's scroll. The dynamism of their relationship is strange, to say the least.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Avishek's Avatar
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    Thumbs Up Re: The good or bad Sasuke, which one?

    We are really getting side-tracked here. First, let’s see the changes that Sasuke has gone through over the years in the Narutoverse

    Initial years – Had loving parents and a skilled brother. A little jealous that his brother got more attention but also proud of him (totally real world like).

    Uchiha massacre – Believed brother turned into a madman and killed the entire clan just to ‘test’ his skills. Also that he was so weak that Itachi decided killing him was worthless (the only one in the entire village?What?Even babies deserved to die but not Sasuke?)

    Before Team Kakashi – Isolated from others even through called a genius. Nobody understood why he was aloof (reverse of Naruto who wanted friends and was seen as a curse) and so, he had only one motivation – to become stronger and be equal to Itachi so he could kill him(or, and I believe he implied this, to be worthy of being ‘killed’ by the brother). Nothing else mattered.

    Team Kakashi – Gradually realized the importance of friends but constant hurdles- both positive and negative. Positive hurdles included Naruto being able to fight Oro, and then beat Gaara and finally, Rasengan being more devastating than his Chidori. These all resulted in jealousy. Combined with his shortcomings in each of the three events (paralyzed by fear during Oro, beaten up by Gaara-Shukaku and then the Rasengan-Chidori comparison), and the loss to Itachi and Sound 4 led him to seek some way to be better than BOTH Itachi and Naruto, and he saw that Oro, who was able to kill the Hokage, could be perfect for him. In a way, Sasuke wanted to use his strong feelings of revenge that had grown soft during his Team Kakashi days as a motivator for becoming more powerful. And while kakashi did have a talk with him, it did not have the time to sink in before he was attacked by the Sound 4.

    Post break – Sasuke’s encounter with Naruto and his ability to suppress the Kyuubi gave him more resolve that he was on the right path. And when he felt Oro was not more important, he decided to kill him and assemble a squad to take on Itachi. I think it was not the thought of comradeship but decoys that made him assemble the squad. He wanted to take on Itachi and anyone else would be busy with the other members of his squad. The fact that he saved Juugo and co during the encounter with Bee was, as I believe, a result of learning the truth about Itachi.

    Itachi death and Tobi encounter - After Itachi died, Tobi’s story actually seemed to fill a void left in Sasuke. The thing was, he never did give much thought to what he would do if he ever killed Itachi. I think he never believed he could kill Itachi. All along, I think his intention was that he would be able to get Itachi so serious that it would result in his own death .(the fact that Itachi died from medical causes did subvert an interesting scenario of what Itachi would do if Sasuke was at his mercy.)So, when Tobi told him the real reason for the Uchiha massacre, it both gave him a sense of purpose and also gave him the role of an avenger again (first it was for the Uchiha chan and now it was for both Itachi and the Uchiha clan).

    Itachi revival and Kabuto – The fight with Kabuto alongside Re-animated Itachi brought with it great conflict in Sasuke’s mind. All along while Sasuke had said he wanted to destroy Konoha, he never really got to that point. He only killed someone (Danzo) whom he believed had directly been responsible for the Uchiha debacle. The fact had seemed that his MS had awakened on Itachi’s death, so above all other motivations, the fact that it was a traumatic event of Itachi’s death really gave a sense that it was unexpected. Sasuke had never intended it to happen. His spoken major motivations – killing Itachi or destroying Konoha have never carried much weight when the actual event of ‘victory’ happened (fight against Itachi resulted in Itachi’s death). So, all along he had doubts about destroying Konoha. Just saying something (like at the waterfall place with Naruto after Danzo’s death) does not equate to actually believing he could do it. And all his doubts resurfaced when Itachi told him to change his path. He began to question what did all the symbols that were treated as representing a person in the shinobi world actually amout to?

    The Hokage encounter – Hashirama’s narration seemed to have made Sasuke, at least for the time being, decide to honour Itachi’s memory by fighting for those he sought to protect with his sacrifice. Actually it seems like it was anger at being misguided at every turn, rather than revenge which he espoused that had been his motivating factor. He was angry that Itachi had betrayed him, then that the Village Elders had betrayed Itachi. During his search for power, it had been anger that he wasn’t strong enough to either protect his parents and clan as well as not being worthy of dying by his brother’s hands. His answers to Naruto all gave signs of someone trying to make himself believe what he was saying instead of actually believing it. Hashirama’s answers made him let go of his ‘death wish’ and while I do not believe he has been convinced of Hashirama’s answers, he has at least finally decided to search for the answers himself after all other distractions have been removed.

    While Kishi has sometimes managed to make Sasuke look like a freaking psychopath, I believed he had intended to make Sasuke actually representative of a person who does not have any real motivations (unlike Naruto) for living and instead of trying to confront that problem head-on, had decided to focus his efforts on other people(Itachi and then Konoha). I believe Kishi is actually going to make Sasuke the antithesis of Obito (a person who started with a Naruto-like idealism and has become like Sasuke, an escapist) instead of Naruto.

    And as for the future, if Sasuke does survive this battle, I think he will be pardoned by the Hokage but would choose to be like Jiraiya (hermit/nomad life) and search for the answers though his own experiences.

    A final panel showing Sasuke returning, after finally getting enough answers, to a Hokage-Naruto and still-waiting Sakura would really be a great end to Naruto if handled well enough (please give Sakura a reason to still love him instead of just being starry eyed and brain dead about him).

    And this is just my take from the manga on Sasuke's character. Kishi may have meant otherwise but this is my opinion. Feel free to criticize. I welcome it
    Last edited by Avishek; May 20, 2013 at 10:29 AM.
    Reading is a good habit.

  8. #23
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: The good or bad Sasuke, which one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    I wouldn't call leaving Juugo (and Suigetsu) to die constitutes helping them. He clearly stopped caring about either of them yet they went through the trouble of bringing him Orochimaru's scroll. The dynamism of their relationship is strange, to say the least.
    Yet before that he released them both from their chains, "killed" the man who imprisoned them, and was leading what they believed to be a righteous life.

    He then went bat shit crazy (something Juugo can relate to), but they didn't give up on them. All of them have fought and protected each other before, that's a bond that doesn't just go away. There is obvious animosity between them, but they look up to Sasuke in a twisted sort of way.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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