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Thread: "races" and connection's between them

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    Bleach "races" and connection's between them

    I wanted to talk in this topic about "races"(humans, hollows, shinigami, quincy and others), differences between them, how they are connected to each other and how they affect each other.

    I wanted to say that it's weird how well humans, hollows, shinigami and quincy fit together, like they were part of something greater, what I mean is that we have here two sets of opposites: human-hollow and shinigami-quincy, but find something's EXACT oposite in nature isn't easy, I am not sure what is exactly that "part" of them that makes them opposite but it's possible that it is reiatsu(every race has different reiatsu from others), but if we think of difference between races as difference in wavelength we realize that chance of finding EXACT opposite wavelength in nature is VERY small, If there was even small difference from being opposite then they wouldn't cancel each other out, so HOW exactly two sets of EXACT opposite come to existence ?

    Another thing that is weird is that stuff in manga about races being opposite of each other ignore's existence of of hell and being's living there. IF soul society is is closest thing to heaven then the beings living there should be opposite of beings from hell, but we know that it isn't true so who exactly is opposite of hell beings, does that hint that TRUE heaven exists ?

    three out of four races has unique sets of powers:
    -shinigami's - zanpaktou, ability to send soul's to afterlife kido and others
    -hollows - cero, soul devouring, ability to put soul in different body(human soul into body of bird) and other unique abilities
    -quincy - spirit weapon, ability to destroy souls, Blut , ginto based "magic" similar to kido and other abilities
    But what about humans, we they don't have unique set of abilities ? we do know that humans DO have reiatsu, so what exactly they do with it ?. We do see some humans with unique abilities like Don Kanonji, Inoue and chad but later we find out that chad's power is holllow based but there isn't any explanation for Don Kanonji's and inoues power so it's possible that Don Kanonji and/or inoue(I am not sure about her since her power is GODLIKE) is example of human power. The fact Urahara wasn't shocked when he saw inoues and chad's power implies that human's gaining power isn't that rare even if he was mistaken about chad power. Also it was hinted later that ANY human who spends time in close proximity to being that has LOTS of reiatsu will develop their own power/s. does tha mean that human's have their own unique set of abilities ?

    We know that breaking boundary between species grants greater power, it was hinted that hybrid of any of two species will be stronger then pure blood but we saw that not every hybrid has greater power for example: mixed blood quincy(human-quincy hybrid unless I am mistaken) isn't stronger then pure blood but is actually WEAKER.(or atleast it looks like that) also both ginjou and Ichigo(both human-shinigami hybrids) didn't show any greater power(I could be mistaken since I didn't see how stronger ginjou is with just his shinigami powers), at first it was believed that Ichigo was so strong because he was human-shinigami hybrid but now we see that there is more to his heritage. So does that mean that not every hybrid is stronger(which contradicts what Urahara said) OR that we didn't see yet what those hybrids can do ?
    also Inoue is human which power's similar to shinigami zanpaktou, does that mean that she is hybrid too ? we do know that one side of hybrid can be dominant (shinigami dominant vizard and hollow dominant arrancar), does that mean that there is even more hybrids for example: fullbringers are human side dominant human-hollow hybrids so what about opposite hollow dominant human-hollow hybrid ? what about other hybrids with dominant side(shinigami-human, human-quincy,quincy-human, quincy-shinigami, shinigami-quincy and others).

    I know that this topic has many questions but I wanted to talk about everything related to "races" in bleach in this topic since all questions are related to each other.

    ps. sorry for bad english
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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    the main connection is "spirit". based on your topic, that one thing ties everything together.

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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    Dunno, I have given this some thought but I can't really put my finger on it for a coherent theory. At a very basic level though I would argue that more than anything we are talking simply about different types of souls. Each souls simply has different sort of innate abilities. The part that baffles me the most are human souls to be honest. For one thing the confusing part here is that human souls at large seem to be able to transform into other souls. We have seen pluses turn into hollows and we know that people who die can become shinigami. It is however strange that apparently it is quincy that human souls can't turn into.

    A thought that just came to me is that this has to do with the spiritual awakening of an individual. In this regard pluses are not actually considered in this since pluses are not spiritually awakened. So you have four types of souls each with definite forms and powers characteristic of each. Spiritually awakened humans, shinigami, hollows and quincy. Standard pluses are not anywhere there, they are simply unawakened souls that have the ability to turn into other souls each of which falls within a category or boundaries with specific shape and powers. Of course if this is the case then kanonji would be the only example of a proper human souls with powers seeing that chad is perhaps a sort of hybrid himself and orihime is ambiguously similar to shinigami and fullbringers. So there are 5 types of souls in total, humans which stand in the middle of the spectrum and can turn into other more defined souls and the other 4 souls which stand at opposite ends of each other. Of course the implication of this would be that normal humans can on their own somehow become quincy but that idea is a tad strange in itself so far.

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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    But what about quincy being pure or mixed blood ? it implies that power is related to having right genes but since from what you said it sounded like only soul is important and not organic body, wouldn't that mean that there is some kind of spiritual DNA passed from parent to children, and the pure or mixed genes would be bassed on this spiritual DNA ?

    Also why would hybrid between quincy and person with unawakened soul be weaker then pure blood if unawakened soul could become quincy ?

    For now it looks like for quincy having living body is important, which makes sense since it looks like connection between humans and quincy is similar to connection between shinigamis and hollows: two sides of same coin.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    My theory on this is fairly basic, but might explain things...

    Ability 'A' = Manipulate internal energy to manifest heart's core powers.
    Ability 'B' = Manipulate external energy to absorb it or use it as a weapon.

    Humans have neither 'A' nor 'B', whereas Hollows have both 'A' (as they manifest their powers when they turn into a monster) and 'B' (as they can consume energy).

    Shinigami have 'A' (as they manifest their powers as Shikai/Bankai) but not 'B', whereas Quincies have 'B' (as they can absorb and use external energy for their weapons) but not 'A'.
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee.J.Baxter View Post
    My theory on this is fairly basic, but might explain things...

    Ability 'A' = Manipulate internal energy to manifest heart's core powers.
    Ability 'B' = Manipulate external energy to absorb it or use it as a weapon.

    Humans have neither 'A' nor 'B', whereas Hollows have both 'A' (as they manifest their powers when they turn into a monster) and 'B' (as they can consume energy).

    Shinigami have 'A' (as they manifest their powers as Shikai/Bankai) but not 'B', whereas Quincies have 'B' (as they can absorb and use external energy for their weapons) but not 'A'.
    it was hinted that human's can manifest their own power(urahara wasn't shocked that that chad and inoue awakened power even though he was mistaken about source of their power), for example Don Kanonji awakened his own power, so it looks like humans are also A
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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    Quote Originally Posted by Culaio View Post
    it was hinted that human's can manifest their own power(urahara wasn't shocked that that chad and inoue awakened power even though he was mistaken about source of their power), for example Don Kanonji awakened his own power, so it looks like humans are also A
    The theory is still valid despite of that though, since there is a difference between humans without spiritual powers, a human spiritual powers, ullbringer and a human Quincy.
    _________
    To add to many of the goodies already said in this thread, it seems that Quincies indeed draw their power from their soul, but it's while remaining in their human body.
    If a Quincy dies, then they got a really big problem, because they either have to become a Hollow or a Shinigami, they can't just not decide.
    So I think it's just as simple as that, Quincies can't die because of that, and as a result, they need to stay human in order to draw from their Quincy powers.

    So when a Quincy becomes a Hollow, they loose all their senses and humanity. When they become a shinigami they get a soul burial, which seems to seal off a humans possibility to become a hollow. This Soul Burial might also seal off Quincy abilities, and that's probably why we never see any Quincies in Soul Society.

    So going back to the main point, I think the power of the Quincy is drawn from the soul itself, this is also evident when Ichigo uses his Quincy powers in his Spirit Body.

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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    The theory is still valid despite of that though, since there is a difference between humans without spiritual powers, a human spiritual powers, ullbringer and a human Quincy.
    _________
    To add to many of the goodies already said in this thread, it seems that Quincies indeed draw their power from their soul, but it's while remaining in their human body.
    If a Quincy dies, then they got a really big problem, because they either have to become a Hollow or a Shinigami, they can't just not decide.
    So I think it's just as simple as that, Quincies can't die because of that, and as a result, they need to stay human in order to draw from their Quincy powers.

    So when a Quincy becomes a Hollow, they loose all their senses and humanity. When they become a shinigami they get a soul burial, which seems to seal off a humans possibility to become a hollow. This Soul Burial might also seal off Quincy abilities, and that's probably why we never see any Quincies in Soul Society.

    So going back to the main point, I think the power of the Quincy is drawn from the soul itself, this is also evident when Ichigo uses his Quincy powers in his Spirit Body.
    Actually saying that there are people without spiritual power is incorrect, EVERY human has spiritual power(Reiryoku) but most of them has very small amount, people who have enough to see spirits are rare and the people who can USE spiritual power(like Don Kanonji) are even rarer. Also we know that spiritual power of ANY human can be increased by being near person who has lots of spiritual power like Ichigo or even high rank shinigami's from soul society. Based on what Urahara or yoruichi(don't remember which) said about inoue and chad awakening power's by being near Ichigo it looks like EVERY human could in theory gain powers.

    I must agree about quincy power coming from soul since when Ichigo, inoue, chad and ishida gone to soul society to save rukia they gone through special Senkaimon(World Penetration Gate) it converted kishi(The material that makes up the things in the Human World) into Reishi(spirit particles) since only Ichigo was spiritual being and rest of them were living people, by going through this special gate they become more like spirits and yet it didn't affect Ishida's power.

    By the way if I am not mistaken mayuri mentioned experimenting on soul's of quincy so it looks like they keep their power after death.
    Last edited by Culaio; May 23, 2013 at 06:34 AM.
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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    Quote Originally Posted by Culaio View Post
    Actually saying that there are people without spiritual power is incorrect, EVERY human has spiritual power(Reiryoku) but most of them has very small amount, people who have enough to see spirits are rare and the people who can USE spiritual power(like Don Kanonji) are even rarer. Also we know that spiritual power of ANY human can be increased by being near person who has lots of spiritual power like Ichigo or even high rank shinigami's from soul society. Based on what Urahara or yoruichi(don't remember which) said about inoue and chad awakening power's by being near Ichigo it looks like EVERY human could in theory gain powers.

    I must agree about quincy power coming from soul since when Ichigo, inoue, chad and ishida gone to soul society to save rukia they gone through special Senkaimon(World Penetration Gate) it converted kishi(The material that makes up the things in the Human World) into Reishi(spirit particles) since only Ichigo was spiritual being and rest of them were living people, by going through this special gate they become more like spirits and yet it didn't affect Ishida's power.

    By the way if I am not mistaken mayuri mentioned experimenting on soul's of quincy so it looks like they keep their power after death.
    Quite agree with you, although I suppose we use the word "power" differently, and that's oki, just a misunderstanding.
    Having power is in the way I used it, to have the power to see, touch, hear, affect other souls.
    While the one you mentione which also is correct, is power hidden within the soul, but still sleeping, or too weak. It's probably also true that souls need a minimum power to sustain their life in order to keep their soul working.

    Both are true, depending on the context. What I meant to say was souls with awakened powers vs. souls with sleeping powers, I could probably have worded it better in my earlier post.

    On the regard of Mayuri, did he really say Quincy "soul"? In that case, that indeed makes this all the more interesting!!
    I assume a dead Quincy can't hold out long by becoming a Soul, they might retain their powers as a Soul, but would they be able to withstand a hollow transformation that all non soul burial souls will eventually do if left alone?
    What about Shinigami powers? A dead Quincy should in theory be able to awaken shinigami powers if left alone as a soul and able to withstand the hollow transformation.
    It seems there are reasons why souls can't become shinigami while still in the human world, for example Ichigo was exceptionally powerful and a soul from a powerful Noble house, whereas most other souls are normal, and can't just become a shinigami in the little time they have before falling victim to becoming a hollow.

    So if all this is indeed the case, what happens in a Soul Burial? What does it seal? Only the hollow powers? or also the Quincy powers?
    Can all normal plus souls really become shinigami before a Soul Burial if they had more time as a plus soul before falling victim to becoming a hollow? Was Ichigo just the exception due to his powerful soul? So many question that we can't answer for certainty... but theories are awesome to reflect on :3

    ---------- Post added May 24, 2013 at 12:09 AM ---------- Previous post was May 23, 2013 at 09:20 PM ----------

    Thinking about this in a Evolutionary sense, the very first Shinigami most have come from the human population, a very rare few but strong enough to become shinigami before they did fall victim to becoming hollows. So in a sense, were the first Shinigami Vizards? or could they have been straight shinigami from the very start upon reaching the powers of shinigami?

    Is the powers of Shinigami natural in nature? or did "God" create it?

    One thing is certain though, the very first Shinigami did not have zanpaktou's, that much we know. So hand to hand supported by high levels of reatsu was probably the first art of combat.
    We know one of the Royal Guards created Kido, and we know another created the Zanpaktou, so none of these were there orignally.

    So how long do we have to look back to see the very first Shinigami?
    We have seen the very first Quincy, Bach, but who was the first Shinigami?

    Granted the first Shinigami might be dead, unless it's the Soul King, which it "might" be.
    The very first Shinigami, hell he could be a Vizard as well, having hollow powers, since he never went through a Soul Burial, that way he's similar to Ichigo and Aizen.

    So if that's really the case, what steps did the Soul King take to reach the hights he has reached? He most have gone further than Aizen, yet he most have done something differently than using a Hougyoku, since this was created with Soul Science, and doubt they had that back when the very first Shinigami appeared, which most have been around the very first humans.

    Unless humanity was saved from something else, then hollows would have consumed humanity a long time ago, if there were no shinigami around from early times.

    Imagine that, a Shinigami without a zanpaktou, without knowledge that all the current living souls has, and the only way you can battle are with your hands.
    Certainly Yama-Jii seemed pretty trained in hand to hand combat, he might have been CC for a 1.000 years, but it almost seems like he was from an era with no zanpaktou.

    Just a lot of loose thoughts, not a complete theory, but I think that the Soul King was once a human, a human from a very long time ago. It's easy to imagine the first humans becoming shinigami, but how would the Soul King have gotten his powers without a hougyoku?

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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    Ishida's grandfather was killed by hollows, Mayuri Kurotsuchi reveals to Uryū that this was his doing; he delayed the Shinigami meant to protect Sōken so that he could study Sōken's soul for his research. so yeah he was researching quincy souls.

    There is a difference between normal soul in living world and in soul society, souls in soul society lack "Chain of Fate" and probably because of that they can't become hollows anymore in natural way(corrosion). Since soul's are changed after going to soul society maybe only after that they can become shinigami.

    It's possible that once soul becomes something it can't become something else for example: once soul become's hollow it can't become shinigami, or oposite once soul become's shinigami it can't become hollow, maybe it's also true for quincy, quincy soul can't become shinigami or hollow because it's already quincy.
    I think that once soul become's something it creates wall that prevent it from becoming something else, breaking down that wall turn's someone into hybrid with greater power.

    Those are good question's about first shinigami, I also wonder how they did "soul burial" without zanpaktou.

    I don't know when Ōetsu Nimaiya created zanpaktou but pic of first generation of Gotei 13 showed them already carrying swords which means that either Ōetsu Nimaiya is as old as first generation OR they were carrying "normal" swords made from metal, soul society is similar to living world, it probably has metal's, swords like that would lack any special abilities but EVERYTHING in soul society is made from Spirit Particles with probably means that swords like that would be able to kill hollows but probably wouldn't purify their souls.
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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    Quote Originally Posted by Culaio View Post
    Ishida's grandfather was killed by hollows, Mayuri Kurotsuchi reveals to Uryū that this was his doing; he delayed the Shinigami meant to protect Sōken so that he could study Sōken's soul for his research. so yeah he was researching quincy souls.

    There is a difference between normal soul in living world and in soul society, souls in soul society lack "Chain of Fate" and probably because of that they can't become hollows anymore in natural way(corrosion). Since soul's are changed after going to soul society maybe only after that they can become shinigami.

    It's possible that once soul becomes something it can't become something else for example: once soul become's hollow it can't become shinigami, or oposite once soul become's shinigami it can't become hollow, maybe it's also true for quincy, quincy soul can't become shinigami or hollow because it's already quincy.
    I think that once soul become's something it creates wall that prevent it from becoming something else, breaking down that wall turn's someone into hybrid with greater power.

    Those are good question's about first shinigami, I also wonder how they did "soul burial" without zanpaktou.

    I don't know when Ōetsu Nimaiya created zanpaktou but pic of first generation of Gotei 13 showed them already carrying swords which means that either Ōetsu Nimaiya is as old as first generation OR they were carrying "normal" swords made from metal, soul society is similar to living world, it probably has metal's, swords like that would lack any special abilities but EVERYTHING in soul society is made from Spirit Particles with probably means that swords like that would be able to kill hollows but probably wouldn't purify their souls.
    Pretty much agree with everything, gotta love when it's like that ^_^
    Reflecting a bit on what you said about purifying souls without a zanpaktou, indeed, this seems tricky, perhaps Shinigami were like the Quincy once upon a time? A really long time back? Since without Zanpaktou, all they did was to kil lthe hollows.

    Maybe that's why they were called "Balancers" before they became "Shinigami"? Because they had to kill souls on each side to a much greater degree to keep the balance?
    But how on earth did Shinigami (or balancers for that matter) remain shinigami, without a soul burial :|

    So the current Quincy could be like the past Shinigami, who needs a method to purify souls rather than destroying them.
    Maybe Ichigo being a pureblood of both Quincy and Shinigami can lead both factions one day, uniting them, similar to what Souken sought?

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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    Pretty much agree with everything, gotta love when it's like that ^_^
    Reflecting a bit on what you said about purifying souls without a zanpaktou, indeed, this seems tricky, perhaps Shinigami were like the Quincy once upon a time? A really long time back? Since without Zanpaktou, all they did was to kil lthe hollows.

    Maybe that's why they were called "Balancers" before they became "Shinigami"? Because they had to kill souls on each side to a much greater degree to keep the balance?
    But how on earth did Shinigami (or balancers for that matter) remain shinigami, without a soul burial :|

    So the current Quincy could be like the past Shinigami, who needs a method to purify souls rather than destroying them.
    Maybe Ichigo being a pureblood of both Quincy and Shinigami can lead both factions one day, uniting them, similar to what Souken sought?
    it actually make sense because according to Yhwach, the original Gotei 13 were "defenders" in name only, being comprised from nothing less than a brutal mob of killers. They probably killed both hollows and souls in soul society to keep balance.

    About soul burial: there are few possibilities: souls can/could go to soul society by themselves, there was another method of soul burial or shinigamis taken soul's with them when they gone back to soul society using 'gate'(Senkaimon) but this method creates different problem: Senkaimon is opened by placing the Zanpakutō in front of the user and, inserting it into the spacial area one wants the Senkaimon to appear, turning the sword like a key, without zanpaktou it's probably impossible.
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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    Quote Originally Posted by Culaio View Post
    Ishida's grandfather was killed by hollows, Mayuri Kurotsuchi reveals to Uryū that this was his doing; he delayed the Shinigami meant to protect Sōken so that he could study Sōken's soul for his research. so yeah he was researching quincy souls.
    That's interesting, because it implies that when a Quincy dies, their spirit body remains Quincy, not that we had any reason to doubt that beforehand. But this might go towards confirming it. I wonder how that affects them; it might make them much stronger than regular living Quincy. Perhaps the Vandenreich's elite are Quincy from all throughout history who have died.

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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    I just remembered that we already saw arrancar using quincy "bow" so it looks like Yhwach can give guincy power to anyone, even if someone is already different "race"
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    Re: "races" and connection's between them

    i believe that soul burial does not turn one into a shinigamy soul, that hapens, in my opinion, when they are given an asauchi, this way the souls in soul society are just souls, and there is something speccial about soul society itself that makes them not turn into hollows, that would explain why is soul balance so important when the trully strong hollows can go to soul society by garganta without a problem, it doesnt protect souls against hollows, but against turning into hollows.
    heres what i think is the explanation to BB having multiple DF:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3373390

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