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Thread: Yhwach is responsible for Souken's death.

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Yhwach is responsible for Souken's death.

    I've been thinking about this ever since we learned of how Masaki died. Despite being known as a powerful Quincy, she was killed by a random Hollow. Does that ring a bell? It sounds awfully like what we know of Souken's death.

    Now let's list a few things we know about Souken:

    1. He was opposed to using the Vollständig and preferred Letzt Stil.
    2. He seemed to have regular meetings with the Vandenreich.
    3. He wanted to be on good terms with the Shinigami whereas Yhwach took a much harder stance based on the Quincy Annihilation. He probably wanted to overtake the Shinigami.

    My hypothesis is that the Vollständig is probably something Yhwach can 'give' to the Quincies in exchange for strengthening his link with them. Naturally, this wouldn't be an issue for those who are loyal to Yhwach, but Souken who disagrees with his goals could effectively be putting his life in Yhwach's hands. This is probably how we will see Ishida gaining a quick and significant power boost, Yhwach will merely 'give' it to him, just like he can strengthen the Quincies' Blut. I am certain that Yhwach is capable of doing so, as we saw Arrancars with Quincy powers. My suspicion is that Yhwach subsequently killed them off in order to retrieve the power he had given them in the first place.

    Now, Souken was probably meeting with Yhwach to try and change his mind about the situation with the Shinigami. As I mentioned above, Souken sought a more peaceful co-existance with the Shinigami whereas Yhwach doesn't. It wouldn't be too far-fetched if Yhwach's ultimate plans involve killing the Soul King and take his place. Yhwach is, after all, somewhat of a Quincy God and would thus be the equivalent of the Soul King. Despite this, based on Quilge's reaction to Ichigo saying that Ishida is weaker than him, it seems like the Ishida clan has great potential as Quincies. They are also one of the few, pure Quincy clans left. That is probably why Yhwach did not kill Souken immediately - instead he likely wanted Souken to join the Vandenreich in their cause.

    When Souken eventually died, it seemed like Ishida was roughly the same age as Ichigo at the time of Masaki's death, or perhaps a little younger. It isn't too far-fetched to think that as Yhwach was regaining his powers, he decided that there was no longer a need to keep Souken alive given that Yhwach knew that Souken would not co-operate with them and was thus a liability. Perhaps Yhwach noticed that Uryuu had great potential, far greater than Souken's, and decided to forget about Souken and instead recruit Uryuu when necessary (i.e. the present). Thus, Yhwach most likely 'took' away Souken's power as he had done to Masaki. But because Souken was a pure-blooded Quincy, this might not have been as effective against him as the impure Quincies and he would thus retain parts of his power - enough to fight back against the Hollows, but not enough to actually defeat them.

    It doesn't make any sense that Souken would lose to a random group of Hollows given that he was portrayed as strong in the most recent flashback. Masaki and Ryuuken appeared far stronger than Souken, yet when Ryuuken panicked, he screamed after Souken which indicates that Souken is above him. Perhaps old age is also tied into this. Souken was very old at the time of his death and it could be that it is easier for Yhwach to retrieve his 'blood' from Quincies as they are approaching their end. That could explain why it doesn't seem like Yhwach has done anything to Ryuuken. The connection between the Quincy Powers and Ryuuken's soul might currently be too strong for Yhwach to break. At the same time, he probably sees no need to kill Ryuuken as it doesn't seem like he has any agenda whatsoever.

    Since we moved into Ryuuken, we might as well discuss why Ryuuken seems to be opposed to the Quincy so much. It is likely that it is linked to the aforementioned. Both his wife, Masaki and his father had been killed because of Yhwach and he probably realized that nothing good could come out of being a Quincy. He seems to be rather skeptical and most likely believes that there's no way for the Vandenreich to overtake SS. At the same time, he realizes that if a Quincy actively oppses Yhwach or his beliefs, he would sooner or later end up dead. This could explain why he keeps telling Ishida that he has no talent and why he hasn't actually taught Ishida anything. Perhaps Ryuuken knows better than anyone that Ishida has the potential to be really strong, but is trying to keep him away from Yhwach by deliberately keeping him as weak as possible and discouraging him.
    Last edited by Azuma; May 19, 2013 at 02:05 PM.

  2. #2
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Yhwach is responsible for Souken's death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    I've been thinking about this ever since we learned of how Masaki died. Despite being known as a powerful Quincy, she was killed by a random Hollow. Does that ring a bell? It sounds awfully like what we know of Souken's death.
    Don't think it was ever stated that Masaki was a powerful Quincy, although I guess we can assume she was above average since she was of pure blood. And it's not like she was killed while she had her powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    He wanted to be on good terms with the Shinigami whereas Yhwach took a much harder stance based on the Quincy Annihilation. He probably wanted to overtake the Shinigami.
    You know, I never noticed this, but apparently there have been two Quincy exterminations. One was 1000 years ago according to Yhwach and another was 200 years ago according to Souken. Did anyone else notice that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Now, Souken was probably meeting with Yhwach to try and change his mind about the situation with the Shinigami. As I mentioned above, Souken sought a more peaceful co-existance with the Shinigami whereas Yhwach doesn't. It wouldn't be too far-fetched if Yhwach's ultimate plans involve killing the Soul King and take his place. Yhwach is, after all, somewhat of a Quincy God and would thus be the equivalent of the Soul King. Despite this, based on Quilge's reaction to Ichigo saying that Ishida is weaker than him, it seems like the Ishida clan has great potential as Quincies. They are also one of the few, pure Quincy clans left. That is probably why Yhwach did not kill Souken immediately - instead he likely wanted Souken to join the Vandenreich in their cause.
    I think we need to see more of both, before we can compare the two together. As of now though, I don't see Yhwach being comparable to the Soul King, although I could be wrong. As I think about it now, the 5 War Potentials could have been his answer to the Royal Guards. I wouldn't be surprised if Yhwach did approach Souken and asked for his family's assistance in reviving the Quincy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    When Souken eventually died, it seemed like Ishida was roughly the same age as Ichigo at the time of Masaki's death, or perhaps a little younger. It isn't too far-fetched to think that as Yhwach was regaining his powers, he decided that there was no longer a need to keep Souken alive given that Yhwach knew that Souken would not co-operate with them and was thus a liability. Perhaps Yhwach noticed that Uryuu had great potential, far greater than Souken's, and decided to forget about Souken and instead recruit Uryuu when necessary (i.e. the present). Thus, Yhwach most likely 'took' away Souken's power as he had done to Masaki. But because Souken was a pure-blooded Quincy, this might not have been as effective against him as the impure Quincies and he would thus retain parts of his power - enough to fight back against the Hollows, but not enough to actually defeat them.
    I can kinda see this, but not entirely. Unless Souken was preparing to amass a group of Quincy to face off against Yhwach, I don't see how Yhwach would find Souken a threat to anything. He was old and probably weakening and his predecessor wanted nothing to do with Quincys. There was no real threat. However, I do think its possbile that in the past something happened to Souken that would have tainted his Quincy blood which would make him a candidate for the Holy Selection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    It doesn't make any sense that Souken would lose to a random group of Hollows given that he was portrayed as strong in the most recent flashback. Masaki and Ryuuken appeared far stronger than Souken, yet when Ryuuken panicked, he screamed after Souken which indicates that Souken is above him. Perhaps old age is also tied into this. Souken was very old at the time of his death and it could be that it is easier for Yhwach to retrieve his 'blood' from Quincies as they are approaching their end. That could explain why it doesn't seem like Yhwach has done anything to Ryuuken. The connection between the Quincy Powers and Ryuuken's soul might currently be too strong for Yhwach to break. At the same time, he probably sees no need to kill Ryuuken as it doesn't seem like he has any agenda whatsoever.
    While Souken was probably a strong Quincy, he was still human and old age could still affect him. As for the flashback, he didn't even appear. At the most it alluded to him being knowledgeable in healing techniques and that Ryuken thought he would have the answer on how to help Masaki. I'm not saying he was weak, but we have nothing to go on for his strength. I'm sure that if Yhwach is the King and Father of the Quincy, it wouldn't matter how young or old they are, he can take their power whenever pleases. I just think he doesn't care about what Ryuken does, because he is pure blood and he isn't acting against him.

    However I will say this about Ryuken. If he knew about Yhwach and the Sternritter, yet he still chose to call himself the Last Quincy, I think that can point to something deeper about the Quincy that we don't know. Perhaps the truth of Quincy Royal Lineage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Since we moved into Ryuuken, we might as well discuss why Ryuuken seems to be opposed to the Quincy so much. It is likely that it is linked to the aforementioned. Both his wife, Masaki and his father had been killed because of Yhwach and he probably realized that nothing good could come out of being a Quincy. He seems to be rather skeptical and most likely believes that there's no way for the Vandenreich to overtake SS. At the same time, he realizes that if a Quincy actively oppses Yhwach or his beliefs, he would sooner or later end up dead. This could explain why he keeps telling Ishida that he has no talent and why he hasn't actually taught Ishida anything. Perhaps Ryuuken knows better than anyone that Ishida has the potential to be really strong, but is trying to keep him away from Yhwach by deliberately keeping him as weak as possible and discouraging him.
    There are multiple reasons as to why Ryuken wasn't big on Quincy pride. Masaki showed him that being a Quincy wasn't everything. Isshin showed him that all Shinigami weren't jerks. Katagiri showed him why Quincy shouldn't be bound by their heritage. And I'm assuming Uryu showed him that he had more important things to protect other than his bloodline. I do agree that he didn't want to get Uryu involved in this life as he figured he would live a happier and simpler life. However Souken was still teaching Uryu. In a way, its a tale of them trying to do what they each thought was best for Uryu.

    This post is probably a bit messy since it's basically a flow of conscious reply, so forgive me if something are a bit wonky.

  3. #3
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    Re: Yhwach is responsible for Souken's death.

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    Don't think it was ever stated that Masaki was a powerful Quincy, although I guess we can assume she was above average since she was of pure blood. And it's not like she was killed while she had her powers.
    It was very much implied though. I'm not saying that she would be strong enough to take on and defeat any captain-class Shinigami with ease, but that she shouldn't have lost to a random hollow. Isshin said so himself.



    Quote Quote:
    You know, I never noticed this, but apparently there have been two Quincy exterminations. One was 1000 years ago according to Yhwach and another was 200 years ago according to Souken. Did anyone else notice that?
    Yes. I think the two are pretty much unrelated though. The first one was definitely linked to Yhwach in one way or another as it also matches the time when he was 'sealed' away. The second one was more related to them disrupting the balance of souls.


    Quote Quote:
    I think we need to see more of both, before we can compare the two together. As of now though, I don't see Yhwach being comparable to the Soul King, although I could be wrong. As I think about it now, the 5 War Potentials could have been his answer to the Royal Guards. I wouldn't be surprised if Yhwach did approach Souken and asked for his family's assistance in reviving the Quincy.
    Interesting idea about the 5 war potentials, it is certainly plausible. I do think the two are comparable since the Soul King most likely is the Father of Shinigami while Yhwach is the Father of Quincy. We still know nothing about the Soul King though, so it is still too early, as you said.



    Quote Quote:
    I can kinda see this, but not entirely. Unless Souken was preparing to amass a group of Quincy to face off against Yhwach, I don't see how Yhwach would find Souken a threat to anything. He was old and probably weakening and his predecessor wanted nothing to do with Quincys. There was no real threat. However, I do think its possbile that in the past something happened to Souken that would have tainted his Quincy blood which would make him a candidate for the Holy Selection.
    The way I see it, the Quincy are short in numbers and it is thus possible Yhwach wanted to regain as much of his power as necessary by absorbing the power of all those who are completely useless to him, which would include Souken. This is a bit too far-fetched perhaps.



    Quote Quote:
    While Souken was probably a strong Quincy, he was still human and old age could still affect him. As for the flashback, he didn't even appear. At the most it alluded to him being knowledgeable in healing techniques and that Ryuken thought he would have the answer on how to help Masaki. I'm not saying he was weak, but we have nothing to go on for his strength. I'm sure that if Yhwach is the King and Father of the Quincy, it wouldn't matter how young or old they are, he can take their power whenever pleases. I just think he doesn't care about what Ryuken does, because he is pure blood and he isn't acting against him.
    I do think the fact that Souken was away and most likely meeting with the Vandenreich implies that he was powerful enough to at leaast be recognized by Yhwach. Based on Uryuus, description, he seems far weaker than he should have.

    Quote Quote:
    However I will say this about Ryuken. If he knew about Yhwach and the Sternritter, yet he still chose to call himself the Last Quincy, I think that can point to something deeper about the Quincy that we don't know. Perhaps the truth of Quincy Royal Lineage.
    If you think about it, Yhwach was sealed away 700 years prior to the 'second' Quincy extermination and regained his 'intelligence' 110 years after the Quincy extermination. Perhaps Ryuuken was referring to himself as the 'Last Quincy' of that era.

  4. #4
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SoulAuron's Avatar
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    Re: Yhwach is responsible for Souken's death.

    i think you are right, yhwach is most definetly involved in soukens death, if souken was against him then there is no reason why he would let him keep his powers as long as they where usefull elswhere,and him being a pure quincy may be the reason why he didnt loose his powers completly.
    on another note, i think i know of someone who also got their power stolen by ywach, soukens wife, remember when we saw her scar that looks like the ones hollow bitten people have? and what a big deal she made about being pure and even told souken "you dont understand" i think she had her powers taken by yhwach just like masaki because she was impure,i think she and the other purebloods knew that being impure would bring some sort of calamity, which turned out to be yhwach taking their powers, it was probably a part of their prophecy and folklore.
    heres what i think is the explanation to BB having multiple DF:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3373390
    here is what orihimes powers are and where shinigami power comes from.
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3446556

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