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Thread: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

  1. #61
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member flow like's Avatar
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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post

    No one's defending Naruto, I'm simply presenting facts from the manga that proves posts against him wrong. Naruto is pretty stupid compared to people like Shikamaru, has pretty lame arsenal of techniques when compared to Kakashi, all that is true, but sometimes those aspects get a pretty exaggerated description in which he becomes basically useless.
    disagree about naruto stupidity and naruto arsenal and naruto not stupid and rage more
    Last edited by flow like; May 21, 2013 at 12:30 PM.

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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Those are not facts that back up Kurama's claim, you are just using what normally happens in Shounen to prove a point. I am saying that if you use actual real world logic, not shounen logic, what Kurama is saying can't possibly be proven, and he isn't the person (thing?) most qualified to make such a claim.

    Sasuke copying Lee's movement wasn't genius. The fact that he altered Lee's Movement into his own taijutsu while fighting Yoroi was genius IMO but I don't think that was ever stated.

    Later, Sasuke gained the physical abilities in a month whereas it took Lee years. He never copied the speed, he copied the taijutsu and later acquired the speed in a very short period of time. That was the genius act. And no, not any Uchiha could do that, but any Uchiha could copy the taijutsu movements.

    Any Sharigan user can copy movements, that the whole point of the Sharigan. I never claimed that just any old Uzumaki could do what Naruto could do. I did point out that Mito's child should have all the characteristics Naruto had, but you seemed to ignore that notion.

    And frankly, there may be people other than Uzumaki's who can do what Naruto has done, such as Hashirama, or perhaps even Madara. You seem to need a strong chakra presence and an ability to be a jinchuriki. Those aren't exactly hard qualifications. Aside from that, you need skill. There are plenty of people more skilled than Naruto in the world.

    The fact that Madara and Obtio are capable of housing the Juubi, never mind the Kyuubi goes to show that this shouldn't be something only Uzumaki's can do as the Juubi > Kurama in every way possible.

    Now, perhaps they can only do that because they possess Uchiha and Senju genes, who knows, but that's never been stated if I recall correctly.
    Yeah, they don't prove what Kurama was saying, but the genre of the manga in general proves Naruto's uniqueness. I remember that Lee generally spoke of him as being a true Genius because he copied his movements and that the only thing he lacked was the stamina to maintain that speed.

    Plenty people as in few (fewer if you don't count Edos)? Yeah, then I agree. The only people and clan ever to host Kurama was the Uzumaki clan. That was specifically stated in manga so logically, Madara and Obito are able to do it due to Hashirama's cells you mentioned.

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  4. #63
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Athrin's Avatar
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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Quote:
    Naruto wind style variety and abilities
    Are nonexistent. He was never proficient in ninjutsu anyways. I've come to accept that learning fuuton manipulation was just a plot point and Naruto will never effectively use it for anything. He doesn't need to when he has Sage mode + Kyuubi.

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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Yeah, they don't prove what Kurama was saying, but the genre of the manga in general proves Naruto's uniqueness. I remember that Lee generally spoke of him as being a true Genius because he copied his movements and that the only thing he lacked was the stamina to maintain that speed.

    Plenty people as in few (fewer if you don't count Edos)? Yeah, then I agree. The only people and clan ever to host Kurama was the Uzumaki clan. That was specifically stated in manga so logically, Madara and Obito are able to do it due to Hashirama's cells you mentioned.
    I hate the whole "It's Shounen so it has to be like this" argument. That's a cop out. Naruto is already unlike other Shounen in many ways, and while it does have many similarities, uniqueness among main characters is not one of them that spans all of Shounen and manga/anime of this genre. Case and point, look at Goku from DBZ. He was the strongest like Naruto is the strongest, but he was not unique. In fact it said both of his sons possessed more potential than him, his techniques were learned by others, and his powers were attained by others.

    The whole idea that Uzumaki's are the only one's who can contain the Kyuubi has always been strange to me, especially since ordinary people and premature babies can house the other Biju. I get that the nine-tails is the strongest, but the Juubi is even stronger than him, and it was never implied you need anything special in order to house him.

    Also, if the Kyuubi could only be contained by an Uzumaki, why did Kumo ninja try to capture in on multiple occasions? Unless they wanted to breed Uzumaki's from Kushina, it makes little sense that no one else could contain Kurama.

    If Senju DNA is all you need, then Hashirama could do it too. I see no reason why someone like him couldn't house the Kyuubi.

    Shit, Sasuke's chakra is already more sinister than the Kyuubi's as is Madara's. Why wouldn't they be able to contain the Kyuubi? Idk there are a lot of unanswered questions to the whole idea.
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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Naruto could get chakra blades like Asuma's and pump wind chakra into it. He can also do what Danzou did and turn his kunai into a dagger, which could give him an advantage over Sasuke and the previous two Raikage. Naruto can also find out how to use fuuton to his advantage with kage bunshin, like Kakashi/Kisame with rai/mizu bunshin.

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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I hate the whole "It's Shounen so it has to be like this" argument. That's a cop out. Naruto is already unlike other Shounen in many ways, and while it does have many similarities, uniqueness among main characters is not one of them that spans all of Shounen and manga/anime of this genre. Case and point, look at Goku from DBZ. He was the strongest like Naruto is the strongest, but he was not unique. In fact it said both of his sons possessed more potential than him, his techniques were learned by others, and his powers were attained by others.

    The whole idea that Uzumaki's are the only one's who can contain the Kyuubi has always been strange to me, especially since ordinary people and premature babies can house the other Biju. I get that the nine-tails is the strongest, but the Juubi is even stronger than him, and it was never implied you need anything special in order to house him.

    Also, if the Kyuubi could only be contained by an Uzumaki, why did Kumo ninja try to capture in on multiple occasions? Unless they wanted to breed Uzumaki's from Kushina, it makes little sense that no one else could contain Kurama.

    If Senju DNA is all you need, then Hashirama could do it too. I see no reason why someone like him couldn't house the Kyuubi.

    Shit, Sasuke's chakra is already more sinister than the Kyuubi's as is Madara's. Why wouldn't they be able to contain the Kyuubi? Idk there are a lot of unanswered questions to the whole idea.
    Hmm, it is actually almost the same as DBZ, given the fact that Naruto and Sasuke are very similar to Goku and Vegeta. Their sons had a better potential up to Super Saiyan 2, it was the mixed blood power that gave them a "boost" but they could never reach SS3. Not even Vegeta did it.

    One thing was implied and stated, that you need an Uzumaki. That's a fact and we can't go around it, although I do agree that's strange. Also, we know that Madara and Obito are attempting to Jin Juubi, but we have no idea how Juubi or they will react once they seal him in one of themselves. It could be that Juubi can only have So6P as the Jin, but that's just my guess.

    Why not? They probably didn't know that Kyuubi could be contained only shinobi with extraordinary chakra. Besides, generally, an individual has to have some talents to even contain a Bijuu so trying to make one a host is always risky.

    Why would he if he can control it freely like Madara or suppress it without effort?

    Sinister doesn't mean large in capacity or something, I think. But then again, why would they house it if they could control it? It's a lot more simpler idea, and better if you ask me.

  8. #67
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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Hmm, it is actually almost the same as DBZ, given the fact that Naruto and Sasuke are very similar to Goku and Vegeta. Their sons had a better potential up to Super Saiyan 2, it was the mixed blood power that gave them a "boost" but they could never reach SS3. Not even Vegeta did it.

    One thing was implied and stated, that you need an Uzumaki. That's a fact and we can't go around it, although I do agree that's strange. Also, we know that Madara and Obito are attempting to Jin Juubi, but we have no idea how Juubi or they will react once they seal him in one of themselves. It could be that Juubi can only have So6P as the Jin, but that's just my guess.

    Why not? They probably didn't know that Kyuubi could be contained only shinobi with extraordinary chakra. Besides, generally, an individual has to have some talents to even contain a Bijuu so trying to make one a host is always risky.

    Why would he if he can control it freely like Madara or suppress it without effort?

    Sinister doesn't mean larger, I think. But then again, why would they house it if they could control it? It's a lot more simpler idea, and better if you ask me
    .
    Their sons never trained as hard as they did though. When fused Goten and Trunks could go SSJ3, and it was stated that Gohans unlocked potential was stronger than SSJ3 to the point he didn't even need to go SSJ2.

    And it's implied but we don't know if that's the only case, because it's never been attempted by anyone else. Obviously Kumo wanted to try and believed they could do it. After all, despite Konoha always having the Kyuubi and having access to Uzumaki sealing techs, it was Kumo who had all the Jinchuriki stuff to help a Jinchuriki bond with it's Biju.

    And if extraordinary chakra is all that's required, a lot of shinobi could be a vessel for the Kyuubi. And what does extraordinary chakra mean? Large amounts? Or a distinct quality? We have many shinobi with large chakra pools like A and Kisame, so large they comparable to Biju. We then have shinobi like Sasuke, Madara, and Hashirama with strong chakras.

    As for why would they want to seal it into themself, ummm are you kidding? Look what Naruto and any other jinchuriki is capable of, and the fact it gives you a healing factor, access to different elements, chakra arms, etc etc.

    The sinister quality of Sasuke's chakra is what suppressed the Kyuubi's though. Sasuke lacked MS at the time, so it was his chakra that held it at bay.

    It's unknown if the Kyuubi's chakra is the only chakra that is poisonous. If it isn't, then so long as you have strong chakra, which it seems all successful Jinchuriki have, you'd be able to house the Kyuubi.

    If it's only the Kyuubi, then perhaps you need a strong enough chakra to suppress it's negative affects. If that's the case, then perhaps Sasuke, Madara and Hashriama could house the Kyuubi, and Madara and Obito with Hashirama's genes should almost certainly be able too.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Their sons never trained as hard as they did though. When fused Goten and Trunks could go SSJ3, and it was stated that Gohans unlocked potential was stronger than SSJ3 to the point he didn't even need to go SSJ2.

    And it's implied but we don't know if that's the only case, because it's never been attempted by anyone else. Obviously Kumo wanted to try and believed they could do it. After all, despite Konoha always having the Kyuubi and having access to Uzumaki sealing techs, it was Kumo who had all the Jinchuriki stuff to help a Jinchuriki bond with it's Biju.

    And if extraordinary chakra is all that's required, a lot of shinobi could be a vessel for the Kyuubi. And what does extraordinary chakra mean? Large amounts? Or a distinct quality? We have many shinobi with large chakra pools like A and Kisame, so large they comparable to Biju. We then have shinobi like Sasuke, Madara, and Hashirama with strong chakras.

    As for why would they want to seal it into themself, ummm are you kidding? Look what Naruto and any other jinchuriki is capable of, and the fact it gives you a healing factor, access to different elements, chakra arms, etc etc.

    The sinister quality of Sasuke's chakra is what suppressed the Kyuubi's though. Sasuke lacked MS at the time, so it was his chakra that held it at bay.

    It's unknown if the Kyuubi's chakra is the only chakra that is poisonous. If it isn't, then so long as you have strong chakra, which it seems all successful Jinchuriki have, you'd be able to house the Kyuubi.

    If it's only the Kyuubi, then perhaps you need a strong enough chakra to suppress it's negative affects. If that's the case, then perhaps Sasuke, Madara and Hashriama could house the Kyuubi, and Madara and Obito with Hashirama's genes should almost certainly be able too.
    Well, fusion sky-highs hax the power up so it's no wonder but without it, they couldn't reach it.

    We can only speculate about others being able to do it, but there's obviously a reason why Kyuubi was always kept within the Uzumaki clan to suppress it. Since Uzumakis are Senjuu's distant relatives, we can somewhat relate the reason as to why only they're able to contain it.

    I'm not sure, but I'd say chakra capacity to hold a certain amount, but quality as well. In that sense, it's logical that Senjuus/Uzumakis would be only ones to contain it since they're known for such talents. They maybe have chakra as powerful as Bijuu's, but they don't have the capacity (excluding Hashirama). Only speculation though.

    You're right about the benefits, but then again, they wouldn't have as much benefits as Naruto because they wouldn't beat their hatred since they give in it. Excluding Hashirama, and maybe Sasuke now that he might be reedemed.

    I don't think the rest of the Bijuu have as powerful chakra as Kurama. He was able to deflect/block upwards a Bijuudama from 5 of them at once.

    That might be true but here's the catch. I don't think a negative chakra could suppress another negative chakra. Naruto's chakra is probably pure just like his character so that's another potential reason for having Kurama restrained.

  10. #69
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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Well, fusion sky-highs hax the power up so it's no wonder but without it, they couldn't reach it.

    We can only speculate about others being able to do it, but there's obviously a reason why Kyuubi was always kept within the Uzumaki clan to suppress it. Since Uzumakis are Senjuu's distant relatives, we can somewhat relate the reason as to why only they're able to contain it.

    I'm not sure, but I'd say chakra capacity to hold a certain amount, but quality as well. In that sense, it's logical that Senjuus/Uzumakis would be only ones to contain it since they're known for such talents. They maybe have chakra as powerful as Bijuu's, but they don't have the capacity (excluding Hashirama). Only speculation though.

    You're right about the benefits, but then again, they wouldn't have as much benefits as Naruto because they wouldn't beat their hatred since they give in it. Excluding Hashirama, and maybe Sasuke now that he might be reedemed.

    I don't think the rest of the Bijuu have as powerful chakra as Kurama. He was able to deflect/block upwards a Bijuudama from 5 of them at once.

    That might be true but here's the catch. I don't think a negative chakra could suppress another negative chakra. Naruto's chakra is probably pure just like his character so that's another potential reason for having Kurama restrained.
    Yet Goten became a Super Saiyan at age 6, Trunks at age 8 lol. They certainly surpassed their fathers in that regard. There's no telling if they could have ever achieved higher levels seeing as how the story ended after the Buu Saga (unless you count GT which I don't).

    And the reason the Kyuubi was always kept with an Uzumaki was because they were the best containers available to Konoha, whom I doubt would want a Uchiha being a Jinchuriki because of how frighteningly powerful they'd become.

    As for them bearing their hatred, they wouldn't have to if they were Uchiha's with MS, they could simply hypnotize the fox inside their minds. The Mizukage likely never visited the falls, and unless he was purer than Naruto, he would have certainly had hatred in him.

    And Naruto's chakra isn't pure, that's never been implied. Sasuke's chakra is sinister because he's an Uchiha, and their hatred Sharigan BS causes them to be hate filled, the more hatred they have, the more powerful they become. What is interesting is once they get rid of that hatred they don't lose power, or so it seems.
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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Yet Goten became a Super Saiyan at age 6, Trunks at age 8 lol. They certainly surpassed their fathers in that regard. There's no telling if they could have ever achieved higher levels seeing as how the story ended after the Buu Saga (unless you count GT which I don't).

    And the reason the Kyuubi was always kept with an Uzumaki was because they were the best containers available to Konoha, whom I doubt would want a Uchiha being a Jinchuriki because of how frighteningly powerful they'd become.

    As for them bearing their hatred, they wouldn't have to if they were Uchiha's with MS, they could simply hypnotize the fox inside their minds. The Mizukage likely never visited the falls, and unless he was purer than Naruto, he would have certainly had hatred in him.

    And Naruto's chakra isn't pure, that's never been implied. Sasuke's chakra is sinister because he's an Uchiha, and their hatred Sharigan BS causes them to be hate filled, the more hatred they have, the more powerful they become. What is interesting is once they get rid of that hatred they don't lose power, or so it seems.
    Gohan reached Super Saiyan 2 at the age of 11-12, yeah that's awesome. But that's where it stops, considering Gohan from Majin Buu saga. Mystic shit from the Kais doesn't count because it's not Saiyan's power.

    Like I said, Senjuus were known for their powerful chakra with which Uzumakis could relate. Add Kyuubi to that and it's not that hard to grasp the reason they were the best choice for containment. Uchihas simply weren't for that role. Their chakra was strong, but nothing compared to Senjuu/Uzumaki. Just like Doujutsu was non-existent, literally, when compared to Uchihas.

    Well, we don't know if their eyes would work "inside" them, just like we don't know how they'd function as hosts.

    I sure hope they don't lose power since Sasuke was drawn twice in MS form without EMS version (without Itachi's part). It's probably a slight error, but even so, such details mustn't be missed.

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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Gohan reached Super Saiyan 2 at the age of 11-12, yeah that's awesome. But that's where it stops, considering Gohan from Majin Buu saga. Mystic shit from the Kais doesn't count because it's not Saiyan's power.

    Like I said, Senjuus were known for their powerful chakra with which Uzumakis could relate. Add Kyuubi to that and it's not that hard to grasp the reason they were the best choice for containment. Uchihas simply weren't for that role. Their chakra was strong, but nothing compared to Senjuu/Uzumaki. Just like Doujutsu was non-existent, literally, when compared to Uchihas.

    Well, we don't know if their eyes would work "inside" them, just like we don't know how they'd function as hosts.

    I sure hope they don't lose power since Sasuke was drawn twice in MS form without EMS version (without Itachi's part). It's probably a slight error, but even so, such details mustn't be missed.
    His Mystic Version was him at his full potential, his full potential > Goku's full potential. It being Saiyan power is irrelevant, Goku's SSJ was simply him powering up as far as he could go. If you remember SSJ2 Vegata beat SSJ2 Goku. Goku wasn't always the strongest at every level, he simply reached them first. You could say that Goku was the strongest pure blooded Saiyan, but his two half blooded sons, and probably Trunks would have surpassed him, that was a general fact, especially for Gohan, hence why he always pushed him.

    This is off topic. My point is within the Shouen genre there isn't a set rule on how the protagonist are supposed to be displayed. There's a trend, but it isn't the same for all.

    On topic:

    The Uchiha's inherited the spirit and eyes of the Sage. Senju the body and physical power. Chakra is spirit energy plus physical energy. The Uchiha's chakra is supposed to be more powerful than the Senju's according the explanation we are given, it was only Hashirama who seemed to be the outlier in the Senju Clan. No other Senju's had that kind of power.
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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    FRS and Wind style: rasengan are two different moves so at the very least you could say he has 2-3 wind jutsus.

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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    His Mystic Version was him at his full potential, his full potential > Goku's full potential. It being Saiyan power is irrelevant, Goku's SSJ was simply him powering up as far as he could go. If you remember SSJ2 Vegata beat SSJ2 Goku. Goku wasn't always the strongest at every level, he simply reached them first. You could say that Goku was the strongest pure blooded Saiyan, but his two half blooded sons, and probably Trunks would have surpassed him, that was a general fact, especially for Gohan, hence why he always pushed him.

    This is off topic. My point is within the Shouen genre there isn't a set rule on how the protagonist are supposed to be displayed. There's a trend, but it isn't the same for all.

    On topic:

    The Uchiha's inherited the spirit and eyes of the Sage. Senju the body and physical power. Chakra is spirit energy plus physical energy. The Uchiha's chakra is supposed to be more powerful than the Senju's according the explanation we are given, it was only Hashirama who seemed to be the outlier in the Senju Clan. No other Senju's had that kind of power.
    His full potential seems to be low then. Imagine what would happen if Kais used that power on Goku or Vegeta, a full blooded Saiyan. Vegeta beat Goku only once and only by a margin when Babidi used his spell on him. Not to mention that Super Saiyan 3 Goku was stronger than Mystic Gohan.

    Yeah, by that explanation, it would seem you need a powerful body to withstand the sealing of Kurama. Too bad the manga hasn't given us a proper reason as to why the Uzumaki clan is the only one capable of it.

    Hashirama is unique, no doubt about that, but he alone couldn't beat Uchiha clan countless times. That's why Senjuus were stronger in general. Tobirama is not as strong as Hashirama, but he's probably close. I have a feeling that Naruto will surpass Hashirama.

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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    And yet it's still a close range attack making a ton of noise. It would make more sense and would take less chakra to just use a regular Rasengan. FRS is great because it's a ranged attack that does a ton of damage, Odamma Rasengan would suffice instead of a close ranged FRS.



    What does Sasuke or anyone else have to do with Naruto? For the record, Sasuke's EMS isn't truly his own power because as you said, Itachi had to die for him. Sasuke doesn't truly deserve those powers they were a gift given to him.

    The Kyuubi is a not a genetic gift, it was sealed into Naruto. The Kyuubi is as much a part of Naruto's power as it was Madara's. Only difference was that Madara went out and captured the Kyuubi, bent it to his will, and made it his personal summon.

    The point I was making, was that the Kyuubi is what led to Naruto being able to create FRS. And the only way he was able to utilize the Kyuubi's power to do so was to have Tenzou there helping him. That had nothing to do with his intelligence, his hard work, or his linage.

    At the time, Naruto wasn't using his own power to control the Kyuubi, Tenzou was. So basically Naruto had a massive chakra pool being monitored by an outside source (Tenzou) in which he used the most hax training method in the world.

    I'll give Naruto credit for learning Kage Bushin in one night. For mastering Sage Mode. For a finding a way to do Rasengan (with a clone) in a way unique to him (because he lacks the skill to do it the right way).

    But I won't give him as much credit as everyone else for creating FRS. It wasn't his idea, he showed massive stupidity through the entire process, and he needed a lot of help from Kakashi, the Kyuubi, and Tenzou to complete it. Was it impressive? Yes, but not genius worthy in the slightest bit by the manga standards or by real life ones.

    Same thing goes for his two part mastery of the Kyuubi. First he had help from Bee and his mother, and then the Kyuubi simply gave him power.

    I wanted Naruto to kick the Kyuubi's ass by himself, but he had to be fucking handheld like always through the entire process.



    Hashriama mastered it to his level and beyond it would seem. And Kabuto's mastery seems to be on part with Naruto's. What made Naruto's mastery impressive is that he did it quickly (granted, he used the clone trick again but to a much smaller scale).

    ---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 PM ----------



    There's a limit to how many times he can use it in Sage Mode, this bit him in the ass and led to Neji dying.

    And who knows if he'll have the Kyuubi forever? He only recently got the Kyuubi mode which allows him to spam everything.

    The original point of this thread, and my argument that was only having FRS was and can be a hindrance to Naruto. If he had more variety he wouldn't have always needed people to save his ass in the past, and could have had defensive and AOE attacks to help in battle.
    Kyuubi Mode doesn't allow him to 'spam everything'. I will agree that it allows him to use his current jutsu to greater levels, but KM also has a time limit and the amount of chakra that he can use is limited, to a degree. That said, I agree about Naruto needing help with every one of his fights. The only times that Naruto looked to win a fight by himself were aganst Kakuzu and Pain, but Kakuzu had already been 'killed' twice, and even then Kakashi finished him off, while he didn't even beat Pain at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Blame it on Kishimoto. Pretty much every shounen manga keeps the main character limited in options for whatever reason. Goku had Kamehameha, Spirit Bomb, and then everything else was just powerups. Ichigo had Getsuga Tenshou... and then powerups. Yusuke had Spirit Gun, Shotgun, and... I think that was it.

    I think it's because they want fans to be impressed with their willpower and emotion more than their attacks. This is also why their attack is most often just a basic full on offensive attack with no trick to it.
    In DragonballZ Vegeta clearly states that Goku is a genius. In Bleach, Ichigo has time and again proven himself to be equally so.
    Last edited by shane1594; May 27, 2013 at 03:20 AM.

  16. #75
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member flow like's Avatar
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    Re: Narutos wind style variety and abilities

    kakashi not win no one fight by himself. sasuke not win no one fight by himself.

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