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Thread: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

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    Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    Hello, I need a bit of a help with this sentence. A girl is speaking.
    She can become little, she can become adult, she can travel in different times and places...
    She's trying to explain why but she just complicate things. Then she says:

    …「時」はわたしをなげかそうとして
    いこいを盗んだりとどまらせたりする。

    "Time, in an attempt to grieve for me, steals my repose and stops".

    ?
    Last edited by Guren no heya kara; May 20, 2013 at 01:15 PM.

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    I am not really sure ... I am not poetic at all.

    Anyway, you don't need "for" before "me." I think I would translate いこい being the object for verbs 盗む(steal) and 留まらせる(retain).
    Last edited by mikkih; May 23, 2013 at 12:11 PM. Reason: added s
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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Aarowaim's Avatar
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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    I believe you may have made a minor mistake in transcription it seems very much like なげかそう is actually the verb 投げ返す (なげかそう in this circumstance)
    I'll highlight the pieces of the sentence for you, as it is made of three separate pieces (3 verbs).
    「時」はわたしをなげかえそうとして
    いこいを盗んだりとどまらせたりする

    Piece 1: toki wa watashi wo nagekaesou toshite
    Literal: About 'time', (it's) trying to throw me back...
    Translation: 'Time' is trying to return me (to my rightful place)

    Piece 2: ikoi wo musundari [...suru]
    Literal: Stealing rest
    Translation: Steals my rest
    Note: The /たり/ form of a verb is a sort of way to list verbs that are alternatives, e.g, 飲んだり食べたりしてください = Drink and/or eat please. It is a way to turn verbs into nouns and describe 'do this and/or that'. Most of all, it implies that other verbs are possible, just like using や instead of と when listing nouns.

    Piece 3: todomarasetari suru
    Literal: force to stop
    Translation: or holds me back
    Note: 'to stop' is the verb's meaning in dictionary form. In this conjugation, it is causative so its meaning becomes 'to make (x) stop'

    Overall, I hope you're not the copy and paste kind of learner, as I have given you a basic clue of how to dissect sentences and translate them. The full translation is 'Time is trying to return me, but it robs me of rest or holds me behind.' Not perfect translation and I hope you learn from seeing how I went about it, rather than just taking my words.

    By the way, most of the time, unless there's a comma, any word marked with を or が will only go with the next verb. These two sentences have different meanings and I've highlighted what the moon is doing:
    月が、輝くことを見る
    The moon looked at glittering things
    月が輝くことを見る
    [I/You/We/Someone] looked at the moon glittering
    Last edited by Aarowaim; May 23, 2013 at 04:14 PM.
    There is a fine line between bad and good, and an even finer line between good and great.
    Even the most impossible dreams can become possible with time.

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    Please verify the original Japanese txt.

    なげかそう嘆かそう): grieve (someone)
    なげかそう with an extra え (投げ返そう): try to through back

    These 2 are completely different. The first one sounds fine as it is, but please check the original just in case.
    Last edited by mikkih; May 23, 2013 at 06:49 PM. Reason: added: as
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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    As you can see, it's なげかそう

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    Man, I need a better dictionary >.<
    My dictionary doesn't have an entry for なげかそう, however, 嘆く has an entry. I've noticed how on occasion, an adjective will have そう replacing the い, so perhaps this is a situation of a suffix that I'm not familiar with. As you can see, you can't learn everything from dictionaries and grammar books. As with any language, you'll find yourself bumping into new ideas and information all the time. Language is such a vast thing because it is a tool used to express everything we can possibly experience and imagine.

    Anyways, seeing my previous example, you only need to modify the first piece to get the correct translation. The one thing to keep in mind is that として means 'to be trying towards'. To be honest, I'm a little bit interested in figuring out where that verb came from. Though I'm quite experienced, I am far from the most informed.
    There is a fine line between bad and good, and an even finer line between good and great.
    Even the most impossible dreams can become possible with time.

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    You won't find nagekasou in dictionaries, because the verb is nagekasu. Here we have the form that we, in Italy, call B6+tosuru (B = base of the verb. The B6 is the ishikei, like miyou, kakou, tabeyou, oyogou, ganbarou and so on). Here it's simply a -te form to suspend a sentence and connect it to another one. But basically is "to try to do/to make an attempt to". So nageku is the normal verb, while nagekasu it's its...I dunno. Translating this manga I found a lot of verbs ending in -kasu. I think that maybe are some old japanese forms that remain in the current language, like beki/beshi/bekarazu/nu/zu/zaru/gotoku and so on. It's 1967 manga. I couldn't find half of them...but, I know what ugoku means and he has its ugokasu form too. So...I used that to determine that nagekasu (and the other ones) are the same.

    About todomarasetari: I think it's just "make to stop" and not "force". If it was "force" it would be todomaraseraretari or todomaraseretari (colloquial), basically a...I don't know how you call it in English but it's a causative-passive, a type of verb form I've found only a couple of times in my life. Like in 謹慎させられている男, "a man forced to house arrest". That I guess you'll probably put as "under house arrest"......

    Btw, I've noticed another thing while translating old manga: a lot of verbs that today have the ず in their reading, once they had づ (that's why I couldn't find any of those...). I guess that 続く and just a few others resist today, but sooner or later...
    Just some trivia.

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    Something along with ...
    In an attempt to grieve/trouble me
    the Time steals/takes away and stops/stagnates my oasis

    留まらせる:
    I thought of using "stand still (留まる)" in "Time stands still"" but that didn't fit in very well. I prefer not to use "cease" which has a meaning of putting something to the end.
    Last edited by mikkih; May 25, 2013 at 08:52 AM. Reason: added /trouble

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    I'll "steal" from you that "takes away"
    I'll keep "grieve" and "stops" like I translated at the beginning.
    And "repose" too, with the meaining of calm, quietness, peace...

    "takes away and stops my peace"...uhm...

    "takes away my peace and stops"...are we sure that both verbs have ikoi fo object and not just the first one?

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    Your interpretation is: 時はわたしをなげかそうとして 憩いを盗んだり 時をとどまらせたりする。by choosing "時を" as an omitted object. It can be omitted, but unlike "留まる(intransitive verb)," you need an object for "留まらせる” to make a full sentence. I thought the subject was a bit too far away to omit "時を," but it is not entirely clear, and you could probably translate the sentence in 2 ways.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Aarowaim's Avatar
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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    Spoiler show


    Ah, you're using a very formal method of translating. Now, as for づ, in modern Japanese, づ and ず are pronounced 'zu'. In older Japanese, there was a distinction, with づ being more like 'dzu'. This same distinction has faded with regards to じ and ぢ. In essence, Japanese is becoming a more structured language now that Japan is becoming more of a whole where once there were rivalries and opposing factions. Because the two characters have the same pronunciation now, they have decided to make one the standard for expressing the sound.

    With regards to なげかす/なげかそう, the only explanation I can find is here: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/causepass.
    Essentially, a shortened version of causative form is to use the negative root 嘆く > 嘆か and add す. Thus, 嘆かそう = to try to make (object) grieve. Of course, I'm not entirely certain if this is true in older Japanese. The link is to Tae Kim's website and he does an excellent job of explaining all the grammar you find in modern Japanese. Now, if you want something very dry, but potentially useful, I found this: http://ia700307.us.archive.org/19/it...00sansuoft.pdf
    It goes over the entire history of Japanese as a language, however, it ends at about the period of 1928, the date which the book was published.

    Now, jumping onto the topic of 留まらせたり, you are correct. I used the word 'force', because it emphasizes the lack of control on the part of the afflicted party. When someone is 'made to do' something, they have no say in the matter. That is the essence of the causative form. What you are talking about when you say 'causative-passive' implies that you simply had no choice. Circumstances (not a person/object), caused you to do something. For example, 思わせられる means 'to be caused to think', whereas 思わせる simply means 'X made Y think', or 'to be forced to think by X'. Basically, causative implies that 'the choice was made by another person'. Causative-passive means that 'the choice was the only possible choice'.

    Spoiler show


    Alright, grammar 101. とどまる is 'intransitive'. Thus, no-one does it. It happens. 時をとどまる is incorrect. The ball fell. fell is 'intransitive' because you cannot cause it. You cannot say 'I made the ball fell' (I made the ball fall is correct because 'fall' is transitive). Thus, 【私が】【時に】留まらせたり
    "(I am) made to stop (in the presence of/because of time)".
    Simple and sweet:
    SubjectがObjectをTransitive (やめる/とめる/とどめる)
    ObjectがIntransitive (やむ/とまる/とどまる)

    盗む is transitive, thus 【時が】【私の】いこいを盗んだり
    "(time) steals (my) rest"
    盗む does not seem to have an intransitive version. This is probably because things are not simply 'stolen'; they are 'stolen by someone'.

    Now, secondly, in the sentence 『「時」はわたしをなげかそうとして
    いこいを盗んだりとどまらせたりする。』, the subject is 'time'. Time is causing each verb to happen, and the verbs are happening to 'me' (the object). Therefore, the most likely and most complete candidate for translation is: "Time, in trying to cause me grief, robs me of rest and causes me to linger". 留まる gives the sense of remaining behind and being unable to move on. 'linger' is probably the best word in English to express the idea and perhaps the most poetic.

    Anyways, using grammar books which reduce sentences into B6+tosuru is probably not the best approach to translation, as it seems to neglect the sense in favour of the semantics. There is something universal in the way we use language and trying to translate directly at best results in bastardized versions of the sentence and not faithful translations. Machine translations are perhaps the best and most extreme example of trying to translate a language as a code/substitution cipher. Google Translate's attempt: "Time" as Lend threw me
    And you can not remain to steal Ikoi.
    Google Translate with 嘆こう instead of 嘆かそう: In an attempt to Nageko me "time"
    And you can not remain to steal Ikoi.

    Edit: Here's why I use 時に as a particle for the causative: http://gendocs.ru/docs/18/17727/conv_1/file1.pdf
    In lesson 30, it states that causative may use a を only if を has not already been used. Moreover, をimplies direct control and agreement between the person who is made to do something and the person who causes them to do it. Time is going to make her stop whether or not she wants it to, so に is the particle to use.
    Last edited by Aarowaim; May 27, 2013 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Added spoilers to prevent redundancy and make post smaller

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    To make it easier for Guren to translate ...
    there are different interpretations for 時はわたしをなげかそうとして 憩いを盗んだり とどまらせたりする。

    時はわたしをなげかそうとして 憩いを盗んだり 時をとどまらせたりする。
    時はわたしをなげかそうとして 憩いを盗んだり憩いをとどまらせたりする。
    時はわたしをなげかそうとして 憩いを盗んだり 私をとどまらせたりする。
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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Aarowaim's Avatar
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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    1. Possible, however, it implies that time is made to stop. She seems to be at the mercy of time's whims, so this is unlikely.
    2. Rest/repose is stopped. This is also a potential translation, however, it is slightly dissonant, as stealing and then stopping someone's respite seems redundant. This also conflicts with the sense of とどまる, which seems to mean 'hold back/stay back/remain', rather than 'stop', which is とまる.
    3. Perhaps the most likely interpretation, as the 'unspoken' subject is 'time' and the object seems to be 'watashi'. In all language, the subject acts upon the object, and causative verbs are perhaps the most intently focused upon this relationship. This is the translation that the majority of my evidence and experience supports.

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by Aarowaim View Post
    2. Rest/repose is stopped. This is also a potential translation, however, it is slightly dissonant, as stealing and then stopping someone's respite seems redundant. This also conflicts with the sense of とどまる, which seems to mean 'hold back/stay back/remain', rather than 'stop', which is とまる.
    Just to note that there is no intransitive とどまる here, but transitive とどまらせる (similar to とどめる) that goes with an object.
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