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Danzo strengthened himself, but he acted in such ways because he thought he was strengthening the village. I mentioned Oro when talking about ninjas amassing power, I'm not nearly insane enough to argue that he didn't do it for completely selfish reasons. Ao's situation is unknown, but it is extremely unlikely that a Hyuuga willingly handed over their Byakugan to him. That would suggest that he took it. Arguing that Rin is different from Kushina seems a bit silly; they kidnapped her to utilise her ability to use her as a weapon, it isn't any different from attempting to kidnap Hinata to attempt to gain her Byakugan or kidnapping Kushina to make use of the Kyuubi. The Byakugan would've been used to increase their military strength, and the Kyuubi would've been used as a weapon. And you say that we've seen Kumo take actions beyond the other villages, but what are these actions? Kidnapping; they aren't the only one obviously. As for Suna, their Daimyo downgraded them, yes. However, the Kazekage wasn't particularly fond of the idea. It was external forces that weakened Suna, in this case the Daimyo of the nation at large. And changing the way you train shinobi isn't disarmament; Kiri didn't necessarily lose strength because of it. To be honest, Kirigakure is probably stronger now that their own people aren't slaughtering one another every other day.Quote:
I didn't say that they said it 'just because'. We saw the accusation that Akatsuki was formed in Kiri thrown around, we know that wasn't the case. I'm not ignoring the past of certain villages, but this discussion from the very beginning has been focused on the current Kages. As for Tsunade, although she is relevant in the wider discussion, her inclusion on that list was purely my own error. In the case of Danzo, the only relationship between him and Akatsuki proper is when he decided to join Hanzo in attempting to wipe them out. So that doesn't change that there is only one Kage that has been shown to utilise Akatsuki. I'm not sure what the mention of missing-nins is about. And even Kages aren't infallible.Quote:
We've talked about kidnappings, but in the end we're talking about the actions that the current Kages have taken. I dispute that you can attribute the Hyuuga incident to A, and with Kushina's kidnapping happening years before; there's little chance A was involved there. Rin's kidnapping happened before Mei's tenure, so there's that. And simply saying that the villages have torture teams is rather meaningless; we know absolutely nothing about these teams, their potential actions, or how the Kages might've utilised them. So I'm not going to bother trying to address them, or their existence. This debate wasn't about comparing the dealings and crimes of the Five Great Shinobi Villages over the years to the actions of Sasuke, this was about comparing the actions of the current Kages to Sasuke's actions.
Last edited by Impossibility; July 02, 2013 at 06:09 AM.
I'm not arguing that Danzo strengthened the village, I'm arguing that he thought he did. So Ao gets a free pass with a Hyuuga eye in his socket, but A must be involved with the Hyuuga incident. This seems a bit inconsistent. They kidnapped her to utilise her as a jin, we know that only certain individuals are capable of becoming jins, so in effect they utilised her for that specific trait, or ability. I don't see the distinction. Kumo took Kushina to claim Kurama, who would've been used as a weapon, just as Rin was. Trying to differentiate between the two seems arbitrary. My point about Suna was that the shinobi of Suna didn't decide to disarm, they were forced to. And Kiri didn't stop their ninjas from being as strong, they just made them less murderous and unstable, and that was for the good of the village. I don't see how that can be considered disarmament. And Konoha having a few key shinobi to maintain their strength doesn't seem any different from the other villages; each seems to have a few ninja that are pretty much one-man-armies that serve as their greatest threat.Quote:
It wasn't the case. Akatsuki was formed in Amegakure, it wasn't formed in Kiri. So, that statement was wrong. A also suggested that Danzo conspired with Akatsuki to engineer Oro and Suna's attack on Konoha, we know that wasn't the case. A said quite a few things during that meeting that were just inaccurate, he was emotional and suspicious, as I said. Can you point out to me where Danzo utilised Akatsuki? He had a relationship with Oro over the years, and we know that he met Tobi, but beyond that I see nothing. The only Kage known to have made use of Akatsuki is Oonoki.Quote:
There isn't any evidence; there's just a lack of information and some guesswork on your part. How is it that you've come to believe that Rin was kidnapped during Mei's tenure? Mei recently became Mizukage. And there is that glaring fact that Yagura, as Mizukage, was manipulated by Obito, the same Obito who only came to take to Madara's plan after he witnessed Rin's death. So....I don't see how Mei being Mizukage during the Rin incident makes any sense, whatsoever. Try again. There isn't anything complex about 'torture squads', I'm just not prepared to speculate about the actions of groups that we've never seen, I'm even less willing to attribute some possible crimes from some potential groups to any of the Kages. And once again, we have a clear list of crimes and acts that can be attributed to Sasuke, the lists for the Kages aren't anywhere near as extensive.Quote:
Moot point since it's the Daimyo who's responsible for deciding major thing for the villages. Less murderous and unstable? Because Konoha doesn't have murderous and unstable people... It was disarmament if you're removing/limiting your armaments. And it has been shown quite different. Both Suna and Iwa's individual forces were able to decimate Konoha's individual forces.
Bloody Mist, meaning it had to have been towards the end of that era since Zabuza was a child at the end of it. Since Rin was killed here, it would have taken some time for it to have reappeared and then recaptured by Kiri to be placed back in Yagura, which doesn't fit with the previous mentioned. Speculate about groups we never seen? But we have seen then via Konoha's squad. It's silly to claim that their crimes aren't more extensive compared to Sasuke who has done pretty minor compared to the standard ninja.
We aren't talking about whether what he was doing was right, we're talking about whether or not he thought it would benefit Konoha. We have more to suggest that Ao was involved with a plan to steal the Byakugan than we have for A; Ao has a Byakugan in his eye socket. We know that A has been accused by others of amassing ninjutsus, and we know that Kumo has done such things in the past. We don't know what actions A might have taken. It's pure speculation. Not anyone can handle a bijuu, we've had mention of it over and over. To be honest, I don't get the point of arguing over this. Kiri kidnapped someone to achieve some ends, Kumo kidnapped someone to achieve some ends. At this point, I'm not even sure how this is relevant to the conversation anymore, so I'm probably just going to move on.Quote:
The Daimyo's involvement in the villages affairs seems to be relatively minor, beyond the choice of the Kage at least. Konoha has some crazy ninja, yes. And those ninjas have caused tons of problems. That's probably why Kiri wanted less shinobi like that. And you've provided the definition of disarmament, but you haven't shown how the change in their training methods meets that definition. When was it that Suna and Iwa's 'individual forces' decimated Konoha's? Considering that you argued about Konoha's strength above, I'm struggling to see how these two arguments fit together.Quote:
Was Akatsuki formed in Kiri? No. Was Akatsuki formed in Amegakure? Yes. So the assertion that Akatsuki was formed in Kiri is incorrect. Whether someone who was instrumental in the formation of the organization happened to hang out in Kiri doesn't change that fact. Danzo plotted against Sarutobi and Konoha, ok. Now show me where he was involved in Oro and Suna's attack on Konoha. You're addressing things that just aren't relevant. Either Danzo was involved in the plot, or he wasn't. And we know that he wasn't. Any potential dealings between Danzo and Obito remain unknown, and was Oro a member of Akatsuki when Danzo had dealings with him?Quote:
The accusations you speak of were lodged against Kumo itself, they weren't accusations against A. We know that Kumo was responsible for that, those accusations add nothing beyond that. And Kumo being at war when Sandaime died isn't evidence of anything, considering that we've already established that the villages have been engaged in conflict almost endlessly since their formations.Quote:
As for Mei being Mizukage at the time of the Rin incident, that is just nonsensical. It is simply impossible, and it is ridiculous that I have to explain this again. Obito is saved by Madara. He is nursed backed to health. He's stuck in the cave. He hears of Kiri's activity. He leaves the cave to witness Rin's death. Rin's death at the hands of Kakashi inspires him to take on Madara's cause. At some point after this, Obito manipulates Yagura, the Yondaime Mizukage. If Yagura is Mei's predecessor, and Yagura, as Mizukage was manipulated by Obito. And Obito only decided to do so after Rin's death. How on earth is it possible for Mei to have been Mizukage during the time of Rin's kidnapping? Are you serious? The only way that would be possible is if someone has mastered time travel. Just move on. You've speculated, you've conjectured, and you've just straight out gotten some things wrong. This has gotten far off topic in some ways, and yet my original assertion stands.
Konoha was only up against three other villages, only two being major villages. You're forgetting that Konoha had lost alot of powerful ninjas since then. As I mentioned before, while the standard ninjas of Konoha could barely measure up, the handful of strong ninjas they had could easily even out the balance, such as when Minato wiped out fifty Iwa ninjas himself. Between Minato, the Sannins, and the Uchiha clan, they would have obviously been able to make up for the strength difference.
Ao directly mentions it as a souvenir of battle. Not once did Ee deny the accusation of amassing power. Not anyone can control a Bijuu, but since Kiri wasn't expecting Rin to control it, your example is moot. There have been several examples of Jinchuuriki incapable of controlling the Bijuus and said Bijuus going wild in a village. There's clearly a huge difference between kidnapping someone to make into a bomb and kidnapping someone to gain their unique power.
Considering Kakashi's follow-up and the use of "you", pretty sure they were lodged at Ee himself. And given that the only war we know Kumo was involved with at that time was with Konoha, it's enough evidence.
a child when he graduated eleven years ago near the end of the era and an adult when he fought Kakashi and co, meaning at least a decade had passed, or Kakashi stating it had been long ago, or Mei calling the rule of Yagura the old days and "long over", or even the previous mentioned fact that Rin's death would have meant the death of the Sanbi and it's later rebirth somewhere else. Your claim requires Yagura's rule to have been relatively recent, which just doesn't make sense with everything that has been shown. The only piece of evidences to support such a conclusion is the piece about Yagura being manipulated, and given that the person's face was never actually shown, it's still ambiguous. So the fact is that it's neither speculation nor conjecture. The timeline may not be consistent or definitive, but multiple pieces of evidence point to Yagura's rule and the Bloody Mist era being around a decade before as opposed to a single piece of enigmatic evidence implying it was recent.
This discussion about Danzo has veered into the unnecessary and only vaguely relevant. Danzo thought that what he was doing was best for Konoha in the long term. He might've gone about it in the wrong way, but his intent remains. As for jinchuurikis, the villages go to far extents to find someone capable of bearing a bijuu. It isn't just a matter of control, only a few have ever been able to control their respective bijuus. The suggestion that the Gold & Silver Brothers were distantly related to the Sage because of their ability to assimilate the chakra of a bijuu indicates handling the chakra of a bijuu is a special skill. As for differentiating between the different kidnappings, I'm over it...it's barely relevant and one of the many things dragging this on.Quote:
Another side argument. Kiri making ninjas less violent doesn't equate to disarmament. To say that Kiri disarmed, you have to show that Kiri's military might significantly decreased because of their change in training methods. We don't have anything to suggest that was the case, it would seem to be the opposite. They were able to establish order, and bring an end to the internal conflict, in order to strengthen the village. The Oto/Suna invasion was a surprise attack. As soon as Konoha had brought their civilians to safety, they turned the tides. You mention a handful of powerful ninja, but we saw quite a few ninja getting in on the action to bring the invasion to an end. And you specifically mention Minato's intervention during the battle with Iwa. We don't know enough about the battle. Konoha might've been overwhelmed by numbers, Iwa could've sent higher ranked shinobi, some of their elites. Simply saying that the other villages have superior forces because of a single battle is meaningless. Yes, Minato alone was able to turn the tide. But I don't see how that is any different from Sandaime Raikage taking on an army alone, that is even more of a solo feat. Konoha isn't the only village with a handful of ninjas that make up the core of their military strength. The difference in class within villages is obvious, it is the main reason a few Edos from amongst the villages were so effective against the Allied Forces.Quote:
And here I was with the impression that Akatsuki was formed by Yahiko in Amegakure with shinobi from Amegakure. Yahiko was encouraged to do so, but the fact remains. Akatsuki was formed in Amegakure. And saying that there's nothing to suggest that Danzo wasn't involved is possibly the most desperate argument I've ever seen from you. We have nothing to suggest that he was involved. We have no idea what Danzo and Obito discussed and whether anything beyond that discussion ever happened. And what evidence is there to suggest that Oro was a member of Akatsuki when Danzo had dealings with him? This is a serious question because I know he wasn't later on, but I can't be bothered to try to work out Oro's earlier relationship with Danzo, in terms of timeframe.Quote:
So Kakashi using the word 'you' when talking to A and asking him to forgive Sasuke is now evidence that A was involved with the Hyuuga incident. Yeah, this had definitely been going on for too long.Quote:
The crux of your argument seems to be that Kiri was known as 'The Bloody Mist' during Yagura's rule. Was that title established during Yagura's tenure? Just wondering if you could show me where he was responsible for that name. I should point out that the Rin incident happened more than 15 years ago, since you seem to be trying to put together some timeframe for your own purposes. Since you mention Mei; Mei has only recently become Mizukage, we know this. Mei has also actively attempted to change the reputation of Kiri. Neither of those things fit with an incident more than 15 years ago that involves kidnapping a girl to use as a weapon. I don't see why the rebirth of the Sanbi changes anything, what would stop Kiri from recapturing it? My claim doesn't require Yagura to have ruled recently, unless you consider 15 years recent. Another thing about timeframe; Mei is 30. If Mei was Mizukage at the time of the Rin incident, she would've had to have become a Kage at 15, at the oldest. Not in itself unheard of, considering Gaara. However, I don't think Gaara would've been considered so young if a Kage across from him had attained the rank of Kage at the same time, or possibly even younger. Yagura is considered the Sanbi's last jinchuuriki, he was the host for the Sanbi after Rin. If Yagura's rule is as you say, a 'decade before', that would be after the Rin incident. The timeframe you've put forth actively supports what I've already stated. This argument is just ludicrous at this point.Quote:
This has gone on for far too long, and we've moved on to topics that aren't relevant to the thread. I'm happy to stick with your suggestion of keeping it simple and to what we know. I'm just going to point to my list of what we actually know about the activities of Sasuke and the Kages that I put forward so long ago.
Last edited by Impossibility; July 05, 2013 at 04:20 AM.
So er, what makes Sasuke an asshole? Or at least, worse asshole than other characters in the manga who've arguably done worse stuff than he has?
Actually, this whole discussion was about the crimes of the current Kage. Danzo was brought up in the context of the summit, and as an example of what has been done in the name of some of the villages. Once again, not arguing about Danzo's intentions. That has long been made clear. Not just anyone can be a jinchuuriki, the fact that Suna tested for compatibility is evidence of that. And the reference to Minato seems pointless, Naruto is an Uzumaki. He is inherently suited to handle a jinchuuriki because of this. And since we're talking about the crimes committed by the Kages and Sasuke, the process of choosing a jin is wholly irrelevant to this discussion, and isn't worth the attention.Quote:
You've yet to show how Kiri's change in training amounts to disarmament; there isn't anything to suggest that their military might was reduced as a result of these changes. One only needs to look at the decision to end the graduation process that involved students murdering one another; it ended because one student wiped out the entire class. They weren't better off because of that method, so they changed it. Gaara wasn't even in the village, and Oro and Sarutobi were engaged in a battle that was completely separate and apart from the battle to secure Konoha. By the time Oro had ended his battle with Sarutobi, the shinobi of Konoha had already brought down the invaders. We don't know enough about the battle at Iwa to draw the broad conclusion that Iwa's general forces are superior to Konoha's. The other villages have more than one or two elite ninja; the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist, Mei, Yagura for Kiri, A, Bee, Yugito, Darui, Sandaime, and the Gold and Silver Brothers for Kumo, Oonoki, Muu, Deidara, Akatsuchi, Gari, Han, Roshi, and Kitsuchi for Iwa, and Gaara, Chiyo, Pakura, Sasori, Sandaime, and Yondaime. Those are just the ones that came to mind. Each of the villages have quite a few elites, we've just seen more action from Konoha's. The fighting strength of the villages is also off-topic. I don't see any reason to continue this.Quote:
You're attempting to differentiate one organisation from the other. Akatsuki's make-up and goals might've changed, but the organisation remained Akatsuki. You've moved beyond ridiculous at this point. Danzo wasn't involved in Oro's plot to destroy Konoha. Danzo was shady, yes. People were willing to believe anything about him, yes. However, we have absolutely nothing to link him to the invasion of Konoha. What you consider obvious is beyond what we have been provided with, it is speculation. And you say Oro was a member of Akatsuki soon after he left Konoha, how soon? Is there something that definitively links Oro to Akatsuki at the time of his dealings with Danzo?Quote:
Yamamoto uses the word 'you', so what? He also uses the term 'we' in the same sentence, he isn't speaking of himself and the group he was with, but rather Konoha. 'You' references Kumo, and 'we' references Konoha.Quote:
I didn't ask whether Kiri was known as the 'Bloody Mist' during Yagura's tenure, I asked whether it became known as the 'Bloody Mist' during his tenure. Two very different things. 'The Bloody Mist' existed as a moniker for Kiri even before Yagura's term as Mizukage. Exactly 14/15 years ago? Really? The Rin incident happened before Obito's attack on Konoha. Obito's attack coincided with Naruto's birth. Naruto is how old? Dude, get your facts sorted before you bother to write this stuff. Yes, Mei ordering a kidnapping in order to use a girl as a weapon against Konoha goes against the position of improving the reputation of Kiri. My reference was to point out the reaction to Gaara's age, if Mei had ascended to Mizukage at a comparable age or even younger, which would be required under the sequence you've put forth, their reactions would've been out of place. There is far too much that makes it clear that Mei wasn't Mizukage at the time of the Rin incident for you to be continuing with this.Quote:
Your statements haven't shown anything, you don't even have a grasp of the links you're putting forward. Your entire argument is based on a few accusations. The series hasn't stated something, someone within the series has stated something. Two very different things.Quote:
Too much? You haven't given anything that "makes it clear" and completely ignoring that Yagura's time was repeatedly mention as being a long time ago.
Well, it began as a discussion on why Sasuke wasn't any worst then any of the Kages, and how he has done less crappy stuff then them...
Danzo wished to protect Konoha, albeit in his own twisted way. He remained vigilant in eliminating threats to Konoha, he was willing to give up his life for his team, and he tried to bring Sasuke and Obito to their graves to save Konoha. I don't understand why this is even being discussed. As for the Jins, they came up in the context of Rin's kidnapping and your attempt to differentiate her kidnapping from Kushina and Hinata's. Although, their continued use could easily be an argument against the idea of disarmament on the parts of the villages. This has veered to the completely out of focus, as some have pointed out.Quote:
And you have something to show that Konoha's shinobi are weaker than Kiri's were? You've attempted to say Konoha's elites are beyond those of any of the other villages; they were trained using what you obviously consider to be Konoha's less effective methods. You haven't even come close to showing that Kiri was weaker after changing the way they trained shinobi. As for the Seven Swordsmen, Zabuza and Kisame were murderous shinobi that ran off with their blades, and we've little clue about the remaining four. Although, their bearers were probably from that same murderous generation, so I don't understand how Kiri's new training approach factors into this. You're just saying anything and everything at this point, regardless of whether or not there is even a shred of evidence to support it. As for the Konoha invasion, one jin fought another, one leader fought another, and at the end of the day it was Konoha's forces that defeated the combined forces of Oto and Suna. And as I've already pointed out, we know next to nothing about that particular battle between Iwa and Konoha, so drawing broad conclusions from it is absolutely meaningless. This entire thread of discussion is far off-topic at this point.Quote:
Everything wasn't different. Nagato and Konan remained at the forefront, Amegakure continued to serve as a central operations base, those snazzy uniforms stuck around, and they continued to wield influence as an organisation that had an eventual goal of peace. Up until her death, Konan considered Akatsuki to be Yahiko's organisation. Danzo is a bad guy, we get it. But that isn't enough to attribute everything that goes wrong in Konoha to him. We've seen his past relationship with Oro, his numerous dealings and seemingly endless crimes, but we haven't seen anything that links him in any shape or form to the Oto/Suna invasion. So, can you show me where Danzo dealt with Oro while he was a member of Akatsuki?Quote:
He used the word Konoha first, just for your record. And I'm absolutely certain that it wasn't Yamamoto, Kakashi, and Naruto that had to swallow bloody tears to maintain peace between the two villages. 'We' meant Konoha. Stop trying so hard to be absolutely wrong.Quote:
Where was it shown that Yagura was the one that established that title? Rin's kidnapping happened before Naruto's birth, fact. Yet your 'exact' timing of the event is less than Naruto's age. Are you seriously trying to look foolish on this one? This is beyond what should be expected. It is clear that Mei wasn't Mizukage during the Rin incident; her age, her reputation, the sequence of events, the timeframe, Obito's subsequent involvement with Yagura, Kisame and Yagura's interactions, Zabuza's assassination attempt, the history of Kirigakure, the list is exhaustive. And yet, here we are with you arguing against something that should be so easy to get. Your argument comes down to the name of Kiri at the time, and the fact that someone said that Yagura's reign was long gone. We don't know when it was that Kiri became known as the Bloody Mist, which makes that argument meaningless. And we can't quantify 'long', a decade ago might be long, twelve years maybe. Both would allow for Mei to become Mizukage after the Rin incident. You have everything suggesting otherwise, yet you continue to hold onto shreds of seemingly absolutely nothing. You can't even grasp basic concepts of time, at this point. This conversation just needs to end.Quote:
A list of things that characters have said that are just wrong would go on almost endlessly. The crimes laid out against Sasuke exceed those that can be attributed to the Kages. To be honest, even if you accept the accusations laid out against the current Kages, Sasuke's list is still worse when compared to any one of them. So, I don't see how you think you're making any sense.Quote:
Last edited by Impossibility; July 07, 2013 at 04:21 AM.