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Thread: Sasuke remains an asshole

  1. #271
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    @Sanadan What are you people even talking about?
    Just made a statement, you attack the head of a country=an attack on that country. Sasuke has been a bad boy 8)
    Meh

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    ^ No it doesn't.

  3. #273
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Actual source, actual link to manga, previous post. I've shown Suna and Iwa have been at war, and have been in conflict consistently, there isn't anything else left on that front. So what if they were fighting after the third war, how does that detract from their proven conflict during The Third World War?
    Nowhere in your previous post give either an actual source in the manga about such a war happening. You haven't in the slightest shown that Suna and Iwa have been at war constantly, only that they have animosity towards each other. Because it was made clear that the war between Kumo and Konoha was separate from the Third World War, due to ending well after it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And that created half? Double KOs, students taking more than one life, much like Zabuza. As I've said, the only graduation we saw resulted in a single graduate. Ninjas are supposed to be 'violent and unstable', so what about the majority of shinobi that we've seen that aren't? What are you even talking about? I don't know how to clarify the term surprise attack, it seems pretty self-explanatory. They were heightened alert because of Oro's presence, they didn't expect to be invaded by Suna and Oto. The reality remains that you made a broad statement comparing the forces of Suna and Konoha, and the one incident you have between them doesn't come remotely close to showing that. In fact, it suggests otherwise.
    You could have a point with a double KO, but it was made pretty clear that a student taking out more then one student was unprecedented before Zabuza. Pretty sure no one would refer to child soldiers as peaceful and stable... And pretty sure all the Rookies except perhaps Shikamaru have been shown emotionally unstable.

    What is there to clarify? There was no surprise attack. It wasn't just about being alerted to Orochimaru. Konoha was fully prepared to be invaded, that's what they were waiting for. My statement is fully supported by the series, whereas you're trying to apply circumstances that truly wasn't there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    They were Yahiko's support, and his inner circle. It was they that took the reins immediately after his death. Just because you dislike what the manga's shown doesn't change what it has shown, Konan herself marks that the cloud was a reference to the suffering within Amegakure. So the only difference we have between the uniforms is the belt, which I've already pointed out. As for Oro's work on Danzo, you don't know when it happened. The manga doesn't provide for that, so we don't know if Oro was a member of Akatsuki at the time.
    Which is not them being the leaders too, as you have claimed. As far as we were shown, Yahiko had a pretty large inner circle. It has nothing to do with what I dislike, the series shows there wasn't any clouds. If the clouds were such a symbol, then surely Yahiko wouldn't have been the only one wearing them as you have attempted to claim. Now I asked for another panel showing the cloud, and I'm not surprise you haven't been able to produce one. And we do know it happen soon after, due to the aforementioned fact that chakra disappears upon death. As pointed out before, Shisui's arm still had his chakra in it, mean it couldn't have been on his corpse that long after his death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This paragraph is just so pointless. There is time between the arcs, time before the Wave, time after the Chuunin, time after Tsunade's return, time after Sasuke's rescue attempt, time before Gaara's rescue, time after Gaara's rescue, and the list goes on. I don't even understand why you're being so asinine. Your last post clearly states you acknowledge three years, it also accepts that Naruto was 12 at the commencement of the manga, so how is it that you're once again arguing that he isn't over 15. Have you lost the ability to add the numbers 12 and 3 together?
    Aside from the fact that I didn't deny there was time between some of the arcs, I'm not the one being asinine. My claim about most of the arcs are continuous and lead into one another, with little to no time passing. And your strawman makes me laugh. My argument has been that he's not that much older then 15, nowhere near 16 as you were attempting to claim. I said that the combined time probably equals a few months total.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Zabuza was a mercenary that had formed an organisation separate and apart from the village. Why are we continuing to talk about this. You keep on attempting to reframe my argument, but it isn't going to change. The only thing my argument requires if for Mei to have become Mizukage after the Rin incident. You've already said that, by your own reckoning, 10 years is long ago, so that fits into a timeframe of 15 years. Are you able to keep your arguments together for more than one post? That's your only argument for Mei's tenure extending to the Rin incident, and even that is meaningless by your own accounting.
    Yeah, an orginaization created to buold up funds so he could try again to kill the Mizukage. You've yet to answer why he would still be after the Mizukage if his target had already been killed. I'm not attempting to refrain anything. You outright claimed that Mei became Mizukage recently. That was your claim that I disagreed with. I'm the one who started this by claiming she had been Mizukage a long time ago. And I'm sure you realize that Mei would have become Mizukage right after Yagura's death, within the week from all that we have seen. Since Yagura clearly couldn't have been the one behind putting the Sanbi in Rin...

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I've never once said that A being Raikage at the time wasn't possible.

    My claim from the very beginning was that there wasn't enough information to link him to the Hyuuga incident.

    And you:

    It seems as though you've been pushing another line, while I've simply questioned the lack of evidence.
    You started this whole thing by arguing against the possibility. And I gave several pieces of evidence along with pointing out there was nothing to contradict said evidence. I'm pushing the same line I've always pushed and there isn't a lack of evidence. The entire reason we even know of this stuff is due to us being told about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Where is this building? Tsunade doesn't have anything to do with A's comment, which is why she wasn't brought up in that context, but since we're talking about Sasuke's crimes compared to the Kages, she's completely relevant. And your argument is now 'theres nothing not linking Mei to Akatsuki'. I'm going to give you a chance to take that in, and allow you to realise that statements like take any credibility away from you and make you look completely ridiculous. If that is the standard of evidence around here, there isn't any point. On Shizune, you're right. The speech was right next to her on the panel, so I just attributed it to her. However, the statement itself stands. Sasuke was already being treated as an international criminal.
    In the middle of a mountainous area... Not sure what that has to do with anything. If we're talking about the Kages crimes based on the comment about Akatsuki, then why would Tsunade be mentioned when she has nothing to do with said comment? You're once again making exacts without there being anything to base it on. You can not for sure claim Mei has no connection to Akatsuki or deny the possibility of any such connection. The standard of evidence has all Kages but Ee and Gaara being faulted for the usage of Akatsuki, so until you can produce the evidence granting Mei the same benefit, you can't possible make such a definitive statement. And no it really doesn't, else Sai wouldn't have had to justify his decision nor would Shikamaru had to talk things over. Not to mention the aforementioned comment by Temari. Sasuke couldn't very well be made into a international criminal if he was already an international criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    A guy working for Akatsuki? I'm pretty sure Kabuto was working for Oro, who wasn't a member of Akatsuki at the time. So, Akatsuki wasn't involved. And Jiraiya captured a ninja from a group conspiring against Konoha, sent him back, and they had a look through his mind. I might give you kidnapping, although I see this very differently. But so as to avoid a lengthy debate on the qualities of kidnapping; Tsunade now has a charge of sending Jiraiya to infiltrate an Akatsuki base against her. A few hundred more cases like this and Tsunade might get close to Sasuke. Although, it is definitely not torture, so I'm going to have to shoot that one down.
    Kabuto was originally working for Sasori, the series makes a whole thing about it. Sasori even mentions that the man was working for him. And since Sasori is a member of Akatsuki too... Aside from the fact that the guy didn't have any connection to Akatsuki except being a member of Ame, the guy was first sent to Ibiki (the aforementioned torture guy) before Inoichi got him. A few hundred cases? You should be careful with the hyperbole. Given that Sasuke only invaded one enemy base and didn't kidnap anyone, merely killed in self-defense, he doesn't even measure up to Tsunade or the other Kage's actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    Just made a statement, you attack the head of a country=an attack on that country. Sasuke has been a bad boy 8)
    Mifune isn't the head of the country so...

  4. #274
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    @Rikudou King

    Quote Quote:
    Aside from the fact you don't have a clue as to what Sasuke plans, thus you can't say what works and what doesn't, if that was true then it makes even less sense for him to want to become Hokage. You can't have it both ways.

    And what holes? Your argument has been that Sasuke's has such an ego that he believes he can handle the Juubi alone and that he intends to kill everyone afterward. If that was the case, then wouldn't his arrogance be such that he wouldn't help the Alliance due to assuming he could handle the Juubi alone and allow them to be massacre so they can't be in his way? You saying that Sasuke is trying to grab power like Anakin and Palpatine imply just that, that he'll kill anyone and everyone regardless. Again, you can't have it both ways.
    I am going by what he stated, what he implied, what his mental state dictates, his actions before this point in time and Madara as an example. Now of course i can't see the future and state for sure THIS is how things are going to go down... Thing is i assumed we where discusing possible outcomes (the more likely ones...) based on how we can interpret the manga as it is now... if you don't feel like taking different liberties in doing so then we don't have much to discuss on this forums now do we?

    I said his ego is big enough to IGNORE his comrades(even when they have more info on the task at hand) and belive his decisions are the best. Huge leap from him soloing the Juubi and killing everybody after that (no idea where you got the "killing" part from).

    Now even ANAKING before attacking Obi1 offerened him to join him... He said if you are not with me you are against me. Nobody is curetly against him... He is not stupid. Same for Sidious... He did not start by buchering people in front of him.. No he worked with them and gainged trust (that is how he got to be who he was, chancellor = hokage). Sasuke helping here is the prime oportunity to gain trust so he can be "chancellor"...

    As for the rest of the post... Its simple as this:

    Sasuke decided in his arrogance that his actions are best ignoring Naruto who would be the BEST man to know what needs to be done. THIS would have lead to Juubi getting reborn at FULL POWER somewhere and killing an unfoldable amouth of people desending civilization in the same "dark ages" before RS changed the world.
    That is what makes him a moron. The ignorance he displayed because of his arrogance that would have lead to a indescribable world disaster.
    Last edited by xXan; July 15, 2013 at 02:04 AM.

  5. #275
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Nowhere in your previous post give either an actual source in the manga about such a war happening. You haven't in the slightest shown that Suna and Iwa have been at war constantly, only that they have animosity towards each other. Because it was made clear that the war between Kumo and Konoha was separate from the Third World War, due to ending well after it.
    So the link listed as Kumo v Iwa doesn't exist, ok. I've shown that they have been in conflict, by your own reckoning they've fought each other over the course of at least two World Wars, and they particularly detest each other. What else is there for me to show? How was it made clear that the war was separate? And if it was at the same time as the Third World War, then your suggestion that Konoha only fought Iwa and Suna simultaneously is already completely wrong, even with your farcical argument.

    Quote Quote:
    You could have a point with a double KO, but it was made pretty clear that a student taking out more then one student was unprecedented before Zabuza. Pretty sure no one would refer to child soldiers as peaceful and stable... And pretty sure all the Rookies except perhaps Shikamaru have been shown emotionally unstable.
    It was made pretty clear that the entire class being wiped out was unprecedented, that's about it. And I don't see how most of the rookies are emotionally unstable.

    Quote Quote:
    What is there to clarify? There was no surprise attack. It wasn't just about being alerted to Orochimaru. Konoha was fully prepared to be invaded, that's what they were waiting for. My statement is fully supported by the series, whereas you're trying to apply circumstances that truly wasn't there.
    Your link shows Ibiki saying finally they come, after the surprise attack had already began and he had been informed of the invading forces. How does that indicate what you're suggesting? You should maybe read a few pages before your link to get some context before you post it.

    Quote Quote:
    Which is not them being the leaders too, as you have claimed. As far as we were shown, Yahiko had a pretty large inner circle. It has nothing to do with what I dislike, the series shows there wasn't any clouds. If the clouds were such a symbol, then surely Yahiko wouldn't have been the only one wearing them as you have attempted to claim. Now I asked for another panel showing the cloud, and I'm not surprise you haven't been able to produce one. And we do know it happen soon after, due to the aforementioned fact that chakra disappears upon death. As pointed out before, Shisui's arm still had his chakra in it, mean it couldn't have been on his corpse that long after his death.
    They took leadership roles, they were at the forefront, which is the main reason that immediately after his death Nagato was in control. Why would I look for other panels, I've already shown the cloud on Yahiko's cloak, and already pointed out Konan's reference to them. How soon after? Was it maintained somehow? I'm going to take it you don't know, mainly because the series doesn't provide that information. You're speculating.

    Quote Quote:
    Aside from the fact that I didn't deny there was time between some of the arcs, I'm not the one being asinine. My claim about most of the arcs are continuous and lead into one another, with little to no time passing. And your strawman makes me laugh. My argument has been that he's not that much older then 15, nowhere near 16 as you were attempting to claim. I said that the combined time probably equals a few months total.
    So...your argument is that he's not much older than 15? Strawman, really?

    Quote Quote:
    Unless you can show where all these months are coming from, he's not over 15. My estimate is on given all that the series has given us. Just accept it.
    Now you're just being ridiculous, and blatantly dishonest. That isn't even long ago, that was from your post that directly precedes this one. Naruto is at least over the age of 15, and 16 is a possibility within the timeframe, mainly because we don't know how far along in his 12th year he was.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, an orginaization created to buold up funds so he could try again to kill the Mizukage. You've yet to answer why he would still be after the Mizukage if his target had already been killed. I'm not attempting to refrain anything. You outright claimed that Mei became Mizukage recently. That was your claim that I disagreed with. I'm the one who started this by claiming she had been Mizukage a long time ago. And I'm sure you realize that Mei would have become Mizukage right after Yagura's death, within the week from all that we have seen. Since Yagura clearly couldn't have been the one behind putting the Sanbi in Rin...
    Whatever vendetta he held against the Mist afterwards is probably a result of prior events. Recently is relative, which is why I'm not even bothering about it anymore. It's going to lead to an unending discussion about the meaning of the word recently, in the same manner as it did about the word long. And I don't know the reason for suggesting Yagura put the Sanbi into Rin, I never argued that. You realise that there was a Sandaime Mizukage right?

    Quote Quote:
    You started this whole thing by arguing against the possibility. And I gave several pieces of evidence along with pointing out there was nothing to contradict said evidence. I'm pushing the same line I've always pushed and there isn't a lack of evidence. The entire reason we even know of this stuff is due to us being told about it.
    I started this thing by saying there wasn't sufficient evidence to link him to it. That's about it, and I subsequently pointed out the potential flaws in what you considered evidence.

    Quote Quote:
    In the middle of a mountainous area... Not sure what that has to do with anything. If we're talking about the Kages crimes based on the comment about Akatsuki, then why would Tsunade be mentioned when she has nothing to do with said comment? You're once again making exacts without there being anything to base it on. You can not for sure claim Mei has no connection to Akatsuki or deny the possibility of any such connection. The standard of evidence has all Kages but Ee and Gaara being faulted for the usage of Akatsuki, so until you can produce the evidence granting Mei the same benefit, you can't possible make such a definitive statement. And no it really doesn't, else Sai wouldn't have had to justify his decision nor would Shikamaru had to talk things over. Not to mention the aforementioned comment by Temari. Sasuke couldn't very well be made into a international criminal if he was already an international criminal.
    It's in a country, in which he was unwelcome. In an area, in which he was unwelcome. In a village, in which he was unwelcome. You brought up the Kages comments when you accused other Kages of being involved with Akatsuki. The focus of this discussion has always been to compare the crimes of the current Kages against Sasuke's. I can't deny the possibility of any connection whatsoever, it's nearly impossible to disprove a negative. Prove to me that unicorns don't exist within the scope of the manga. Is it an impossibility, no. Is there anything to support the argument, no. It's nonsensical to make a list of the crimes for the Kages that are purely hypothetical and for which there isn't any evidence to suggest they're responsible for. You're supporting the argument that was put forward that the Kages have engaged in greater criminal activity than Sasuke, when an accusation like that is made, the burden of proof is on you. It's not for me to prove that there's absolutely no chance whatsoever that they weren't. Unless I can account for every waking moment of their tenure, that's impossible and an exercise in the ridiculous. I was unaware that a casual statement made by Temari trumped the will of the Hokage, Kumogakure, and Shikamaru. Maybe Temari was woefully uninformed, maybe Suna just hadn't signed on because of their history with Naruto. Who knows. What we do know is that others had already deemed fit to classify him as a criminal, and those individuals wielded far more authority than Temari.

    Quote Quote:
    Kabuto was originally working for Sasori, the series makes a whole thing about it. Sasori even mentions that the man was working for him. And since Sasori is a member of Akatsuki too... Aside from the fact that the guy didn't have any connection to Akatsuki except being a member of Ame, the guy was first sent to Ibiki (the aforementioned torture guy) before Inoichi got him. A few hundred cases? You should be careful with the hyperbole. Given that Sasuke only invaded one enemy base and didn't kidnap anyone, merely killed in self-defense, he doesn't even measure up to Tsunade or the other Kage's actions.
    Was he working under Sasori's orders during the Konoha invasion, no. Case closed. Did we see Ibiki torture him, have any indication that was the case? It seems pretty pointless to torture a guy when you can just take a look through his mind. At least you recognised the hyperbole. Murder is generally considered a more heinous crime than kidnapping. And I'm not even going to get into that never-ending debate about claims of self-defence for Sasuke, it's pointless. After this lengthy debate, the Kages aren't any closer to Sasuke's rap sheet.
    Last edited by Impossibility; July 15, 2013 at 05:11 AM.

  6. #276
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    I am going by what he stated, what he implied, what his mental state dictates, his actions before this point in time and Madara as an example. Now of course i can't see the future and state for sure THIS is how things are going to go down... Thing is i assumed we where discusing possible outcomes (the more likely ones...) based on how we can interpret the manga as it is now... if you don't feel like taking different liberties in doing so then we don't have much to discuss on this forums now do we?
    What he stated: he wasn't gonna let the village or his brother's efforts be wasted, what he implied: he wasn't gonna let the mistakes of the past be repeated, his mental state: reasonable, his actions before now: willing to seek out answers from multiple sources in order to see the whole picture. There's nothing "most likely" about what you seem to think Sasuke will do, it's the opposite given the character development that he's gone through.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    I said his ego is big enough to IGNORE his comrades(even when they have more info on the task at hand) and belive his decisions are the best. Huge leap from him soloing the Juubi and killing everybody after that (no idea where you got the "killing" part from).
    There's nothing to indicate that he would ignore someone who knew more then him or rely solely on his own decision, the very fact that he just got through reviving the Hokages in order to learn the truth would show otherwise. You proclaimed Sasuke was gonna "build a new world order" and "dominate everybody", then compared him to Anakin and Palpatine, who murdered anyone in the path. And you went on to claim that Sasuke ignored Naruto and attacked the Juubi because he was just that arrogant. Explain why I shouldn't have come to the conclusion that I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Now even ANAKING before attacking Obi1 offerened him to join him... He said if you are not with me you are against me. Nobody is curetly against him... He is not stupid. Same for Sidious... He did not start by buchering people in front of him.. No he worked with them and gainged trust (that is how he got to be who he was, chancellor = hokage). Sasuke helping here is the prime oportunity to gain trust so he can be "chancellor"...
    Anakin murdered an entire academy without offering them anything. Nobody? The Rookies made it clear they weren't in support of him, right to his face. Except that Sasuke doesn't want to gain trust so he can be the "chancellor".

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Sasuke decided in his arrogance that his actions are best ignoring Naruto who would be the BEST man to know what needs to be done. THIS would have lead to Juubi getting reborn at FULL POWER somewhere and killing an unfoldable amouth of people desending civilization in the same "dark ages" before RS changed the world.
    That is what makes him a moron. The ignorance he displayed because of his arrogance that would have lead to a indescribable world disaster.
    Why is Naruto the "best man"? Because he connected with the Bijuus? Even if that did make him the "best man", and that's seriously questionable, that happen when Sasuke was elsewhere. So how exactly is Sasuke being arrogant ignoring something he logically has no idea even happen? That's ridiculous. You're proclaiming a situation (Sasuke purposely ignoring Naruto's knowledge because he's arrogant) that not even close to the truth (Sasuke ignoring Naruto because the Naruto he knew was an idiot and he has no reason to listen). And as mentioned again and again, there's nothing to indicate that the Juubi would be reborn if killed here, or at full power. If such a thing was the case, then it surely would have been mentioned by someone. And if Naruto believed such a thing, why would he have attempted to destroy the Juubi himself earlier or allow the Alliance to attempt the same later. Sasuke isn't doing anything everyone else hasn't been attempting to do. So it's ridiculous to claim Sasuke's doing like everyone else out of some arrogance or disregard of knowledge he wouldn't even be aware of. Had it been that Naruto mentioned such things and then Sasuke went on to attack, you could claim that, but Naruto neither mentioned any of the such nor bothered to speak of this to anyone else beforehand.

    Spoiler: Impossibility;3481312 show

  7. #277
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I asked for a link to the actual source, a link from the manga itself. The issue was never that there was no conflict nor fighting in the World Wars. You claimed that they personally had wars between each other, and I asked for proof that I'm still waiting for. How is it clear it was separate? Um, because as repeatedly mentioned, it ended well after the Third World War. And I never claimed Konoha ONLY fought them simultaneously. I said that Konoha was the only village to fight wars simultaneously.
    Link is there. I claimed that they conflicted frequently throughout their history. You said Konoha only fought two great villages simultaneously, here we have at least three; Suna, Iwa, Kumo. Over. Your claim that Konoha was the only village that fought more than one village simultaneously is already wrong by the fact that we know that Iwa fought both Suna and Konoha simultaneously. So regardless of what you're trying to drag this on about, you've been wrong for ages.

    Quote Quote:
    And if other students had been wiping out numerous others, then it wouldn't have been that unprecedented. You can't? Have you ignored all the flashbacks we've been given about them and their sad, sad live? Actually, correction, you could probably add Shino with Shikamaru.
    Wiping out the entire class was unprecedented, that's it. As far as I know having a sad backstory doesn't necessarily mean that one is emotionally unstable.

    Quote Quote:
    Konoha already had their forces stationed for the attack when it happen. What, are you claiming that the attack happen and then Konoha's forces went to sit around while it was going on? And you speak about context, yet seem to ignore Sarutobi attempting to appeal to the "Kazekage" or Kakashi criticizing Sarutobi for only having two Anbu team for the whole arena and Gai mentioning how they were needed to gather information on the outside.
    If Konoha had their forces prepared to fight off the invasion, where were the forces that showed up and started ripping their way through the Suna/Oto forces much later?

    Quote Quote:
    Show them taking these leadership roles. Nagato was in control because he was leading a whole new group. Because as I pointed out, that was an error and you claimed otherwise. So unless you can show it wasn't an error, by showing it appearing elsewhere... And Konan didn't just reference Yahiko, she reference them all, making your claim moot. Soon enough for the chakra to still be there. I'm inferring from what the series has given us.
    A whole new group. So immediately after the death of Yahiko the members of Akatsuki we know just showed up? He took control over the organisation long before the new membership joined up. Forgive me, if I find your argument that the manga was mistaken unpersuasive. She referenced Amegakure, so how does that make the claim moot when you're desperately attempting to establish this 'new' organisation beyond the organisation founded in Amegakure. Soon? Maybe Oro left Akatsuki soon after the Uchiha Massacre. You don't know.

    Quote Quote:
    That's what I said several posts ago, to counter your claim about him being 16.
    That post directly preceded the one I responded to, so it wasn't several posts ago. And your claim that he wasn't 15 was to counter the idea that he could possibly be 16? Wow, this is just beyond entertaining at this point.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm far from being either ridiculous nor dishonest. And we know Naruto wasn't that far along, because Shino and Sakura were still between 12 and 13, and they were born half a year before Naruto (January and March respectfully).
    I'd say you making a statement in one post and immediately denying you made said statement in the next is both ridiculous and dishonest. Obviously, that's just my take on it.

    Quote Quote:
    His vendetta was against the Mizukage though, which is the whole point. It's not relative when we know 10+ isn't considered recent by the series standards. You have basically be arguing that by assigning the crime with Rin to being before Mei. There being a Sandaime Mizukage doesn't change anything, because of the aforementioned timeline.
    If you can show me where Zabuza indicated he wanted to kill Mei, I'd be more than willing to continue this, otherwise I've pretty much moved on. The rest of the paragraph is pretty much repetition, or just taking up space.

    Quote Quote:
    And I pointed out that there was, and nothing to contradict it. And I countered said potential flaws.
    You didn't counter the flaws in your argument, you pointed out that there wasn't enough evidence to prove that A wasn't Raikage at the time. Something I agree with, but there also isn't enough to prove that he was Raikage at the time.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke was never unwelcome in the country, at least not til he committed said crimes. And there isn't a village, as pointed out. I specifically excused Tsunade and made it clear I was speaking of Danzo when I brought up the crime of using Akatsuki. What do you mean there isn't anything to support the argument? Again, only Ee and Gaara were cleared of any usage of Akatsuki. Mei never denies such a claim. I know the burden of proof is on me, which is why I have constantly been giving you links from the series and such to show said proof. Trumped the will of the Hokage and Kumo? Neither Danzo nor Kumo make any mention of Sasuke as an international criminal before the attack on the summit. Shikamaru is the only person to make such a claim. No one with "authority" made such a proclamation and since Temari is actually connected to a Kage, went to the actual summit, and had no one corrected her there, she's by far the superior source. Surely if Shikamaru was telling the truth, then Sai would have also mentioned it, given that he was actually under the Hokage's command at that point.
    I'd say a member of an international terrorist organisation who intends to kill a guest of the country is probably unwelcome. And I specifically pointed out Tsunade because she's one of the foci of the overarching argument, not Danzo. Your proof for Mei being involved with Akatsuki is that A accused individuals, including former Kages, of being involved with Akatsuki. That's an accusation, not even one specifically against her. There isn't anything. Danzo declared Sasuke a criminal; a missing-nin, he was a criminal. Kumo decided to consider him an international criminal, Shikamaru just stated what they had already made clear. And Temari being close to Gaara doesn't discount the decision of Danzo and Kumo. As for correcting her, did you expect a debate on the topic while they were facing Sasuke? So Shikamaru's statement is only valid if it is repeated by Sai? You're most definitely running out of steam here.

    Quote Quote:
    How is it case closed when the entire reason he was helping and spying on Orochimaru was under Sasori's orders? The indication is that Jiraiya sent him straight to Ibiki, as oppose to sending him to Inoichi. And the whole point was that looking through the mind wasn't easy. Maybe in the real world, not in a world of profession child soldiers and assassins. Heck, name one example in this series of murder itself being mentioned as a crime. There's nothing to debate about it, and you have yet show Sasuke with more then one crime.
    Once again, whose orders was Kabuto following? Oro, who was not a member of Akatsuki at the time. So nothing showing Ibiki torturing him then? Even in a world of child soldiers, murder trumps kidnapping. Name one example in the series of kidnapping being mentioned as a crime, do you have a point with that statement? And by your recent reasoning, you haven't shown any crimes for the Kages. If Sasuke's actions are just fine, I don't see what you could possibly attribute to the Kages.

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  9. #278
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    RK:
    You have absolutely not once thought about that being a retcon due to changes in the manga, due to Mai appearing hundreds of chapters after we got the first image of Kirigakure to show a change and enable them to build an alliance, not with ruthless murderers that let the children die, but with a new leader and new perspective. And don't you dare to play obtuse here, use some common sense instead of trying to win an argument. Mai is not the same Hokage that let her citizens suffer, that's what everything is hinting to, that's what the whole farewell was about, to show a difference to the old picture we had.
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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Spoiler: Impossibility;3482555 show


    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    You have absolutely not once thought about that being a retcon due to changes in the manga, due to Mai appearing hundreds of chapters after we got the first image of Kirigakure to show a change and enable them to build an alliance, not with ruthless murderers that let the children die, but with a new leader and new perspective. And don't you dare to play obtuse here, use some common sense instead of trying to win an argument. Mai is not the same Hokage that let her citizens suffer, that's what everything is hinting to, that's what the whole farewell was about, to show a difference to the old picture we had.
    First off, what are you talking about. Of course the addition of Mei is a retcon, I never said otherwise. Secondly, we're talking about the end of the Bloody Mist era, the end of Yagura's reign. The very fact that things began to change then for the better would suggest that someone new was in power. It simply doesn't make any sense that Yagura was still around or came later. And third, Mei was the Mizukage and there isn't any sign of Kiri's citizens suffering after the Bloody Mist era. Her using Rin as a weapon doesn't mean she wasn't a "good" person. Sarutobi was a "good" person too, but that didn't stop bad things from being done in Konoha under his watch.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    First off, what are you talking about. Of course the addition of Mei is a retcon, I never said otherwise. Secondly, we're talking about the end of the Bloody Mist era, the end of Yagura's reign. The very fact that things began to change then for the better would suggest that someone new was in power. It simply doesn't make any sense that Yagura was still around or came later. And third, Mei was the Mizukage and there isn't any sign of Kiri's citizens suffering after the Bloody Mist era. Her using Rin as a weapon doesn't mean she wasn't a "good" person. Sarutobi was a "good" person too, but that didn't stop bad things from being done in Konoha under his watch.
    Ummm, not to be rude and jump in, but there is no way Mei was the one who used Rin as a weapon.

    Firstly, Rin was being used as a weapon while Obito was still recovering. If we remember correctly, Obito was the one manipulating Yagura. Mei's rain was after the Rin incident, because Kisame confronted Yagura and Obito. Mei comes after Yagura.

    If I'm missing something please let me know lol.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  13. #281
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    ^ No it doesn't.
    Sure it does.
    You go and attack the Fuedal Lord of the Fire Country and that attack leads to killing him, you've basically waged war against the nation surely.

    By fighting Raikage, Sasuke had made himself an enemy of Kumogakure. There are easily a few other examples too.

    Like when Kisame and Zabuza were 7Swordsmen at the same time and tried a Coup d'Etat, where they tried to take out the heads of their village and then next thing we know they're enemies of the Hidden Mist?

    I think its clear in Naruto at least that an attack on the head of a nation = attack on the nation.

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Ummm, not to be rude and jump in, but there is no way Mei was the one who used Rin as a weapon.

    Firstly, Rin was being used as a weapon while Obito was still recovering. If we remember correctly, Obito was the one manipulating Yagura. Mei's rain was after the Rin incident, because Kisame confronted Yagura and Obito. Mei comes after Yagura.

    If I'm missing something please let me know lol.
    It has to have been Mei, or at least under her watch. Mei herself stated that Yagura's reign had been a long time ago, and was considered the olden days. And with Rin dying, that would have meant that the Sanbi would have been taken out of the game for x-amount of years before being reborn, which just doesn't fit. Since the Obito controlling Yagura thing came before Mei's statements or the Rin revelation, it seems like simply another retcon.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Sure it does.
    You go and attack the Fuedal Lord of the Fire Country and that attack leads to killing him, you've basically waged war against the nation surely.

    By fighting Raikage, Sasuke had made himself an enemy of Kumogakure. There are easily a few other examples too.

    Like when Kisame and Zabuza were 7Swordsmen at the same time and tried a Coup d'Etat, where they tried to take out the heads of their village and then next thing we know they're enemies of the Hidden Mist?

    I think its clear in Naruto at least that an attack on the head of a nation = attack on the nation.
    Considering how rebels in Syria and Libya were funded by Qatar Royal Family, and yet, no one took up weapons to avenge their leader. I don't see your point. A leader is a mere figure head to lead the country effectively. If he dies, someone can always take his place. It's not the end of the world even in Military factions.

    Raikage is the one who instigated. It doesn't matter what the circumstances were, it was a fight for survival. Even in Naruto Sarutobi was killed because of Wind Country's hidden village's transgression and yet no one retaliated. He was replaced. It means that matters can be averted. That was an internal affair, not an external attack. Surely, Sasuke would be declared enemy by the Ninja faction because he attacked the head of Ninjas in hidden Cloud Village, but will everyone abide by it, the whole country? I doubt it as there is nothing to support this.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It has to have been Mei, or at least under her watch. Mei herself stated that Yagura's reign had been a long time ago, and was considered the olden days. And with Rin dying, that would have meant that the Sanbi would have been taken out of the game for x-amount of years before being reborn, which just doesn't fit. Since the Obito controlling Yagura thing came before Mei's statements or the Rin revelation, it seems like simply another retcon.
    There's no way. What consitutes "a long time ago". 20 years sounds long enough to me, that's right around the time Rin was made into a Jinchuriki which happened before or around Naruto's birth. Naruto is like 18 years old now.

    Kisame wasn't even 40 when he died, meaning if he met Obito before Naruto's birth, he'd be around 20, which it seems he was.

    As for the Sanbi, if your remember it was free and in the ocean. I see no reason why it couldn't have been reborn several years after Yagura's death, and then was free for like 10 plus years until Tobi an Deidara found it.

    Obito controlling Yagura after Rin's Jinchuriki status makes sense. In fact the entire reason Obito chose Kiri was probably because he wanted revenge for Rin, specifically against the Kage who turned her into a monster.

    So a timeline of events would look like this.

    - Yagura takes power before the Third Shinobi War

    - Third Shinobi War, Obito is "killed"

    - Third Shinobi War, Obito finds Rin who is dead

    - Obito becomes "Madara"

    - Obito infiltrates Kiri and controls Yagura

    - Kisame confronts Yagura and Obito, leaves Kiri

    - A few years go by and people become suspicious of the Yagura, people are leaving the village and Kiri is killing bloodlines, and then Zabuza goes and murders his whole class.

    - Kimimarro's clan is exterminated

    - Orochimaru takes Kimi

    - Haku's clan is hunted

    (these three can be in any order and likely all happened around the same time)

    - Yagura is found out and killed

    - Mei takes charge (this would be about the time Naruto and company start the academy)

    - Zabuza leaves and finds Haku (Naruto and co are children still)

    - Zabuza attempts his coup and flees with Haku

    - Then we get the start of the series

    Not sure how this can't make sense.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    10+ according to statements in the series (Kakashi talking about Zabuza's history, which is around the time the Bloody Mist era was ending). Naruto's only around 15 currently and Rin seemingly died shortly before his birth if events are to be taken literally.

    Obito really doesn't make any sense. A huge point was made about how he just didn't care, and it doesn't make much sense for him to want revenge against Kiri when he basically left the just as guilty Kakashi free. Not to mention, nothing apparently came from Yagura being controlled. It's not as if Kiri was destroyed or anything. And why would Obito be having Kisame hunt down ninjas selling the village secrets when that would have been perfectly align with his revenge goal?

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