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Thread: Sasuke remains an asshole

  1. #226
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Why? Is there something unique about him fighting Konoha ninjas verses say Iwa ninjas? And as mentioned, there is no "history" of the villages engaging others in war. Konoha is the sole village we've seen in such a position.
    Have you forgotten your argument? It makes a big difference whether Sandaime was facing Konoha shinobi or shinobi of another village, which is why you're arguing that there isn't any evidence that Kumo was engaged against any villages other than Konoha. If Sandaime was facing Konoha, it means that he likely died before the peace treaty and the Hyuuga incident was under the tenure of A. If he was facing another village, it means that the timeframe for Sandaime's tenure is more open, and that the Hyuuga incident could've occurred under him. And there is a history of war between the nations; we are now facing the Fourth Shinobi World War. That means there were three other world wars, that would indicate some pretty frequent fighting between the villages. I don't know how you can argue that Konoha is the only one when we know that Iwa battled against Konoha, but also Suna and Kiri. So at the moment, we know that at least four of the Five Great Villages have engaged and conflicted with at least two others throughout their history. So arguing that there isn't a history of war, or conflict, between the villages is a bit ridiculous.

    Quote Quote:
    Danzo wasn't in any way acting towards the village. It was made quite clear he was acting solely for himself, with no care of what happened to the village. And you seem to be forgetting that you also mentioned Orochimaru there... As mentioned before, Ao's situation is completely unknown to us. Rin is a completely different situation then Hinata and Kushina, the latter being kidnapped for their powers while the former was kidnapped in order to become a secret weapon. And we have seen Kumo take actions that the other villages haven't been shown to take. It was their Daimyo who was downgrading them, so... And considering said training is part of said armament, then stopping and changing it would be disarmament.
    Danzo strengthened himself, but he acted in such ways because he thought he was strengthening the village. I mentioned Oro when talking about ninjas amassing power, I'm not nearly insane enough to argue that he didn't do it for completely selfish reasons. Ao's situation is unknown, but it is extremely unlikely that a Hyuuga willingly handed over their Byakugan to him. That would suggest that he took it. Arguing that Rin is different from Kushina seems a bit silly; they kidnapped her to utilise her ability to use her as a weapon, it isn't any different from attempting to kidnap Hinata to attempt to gain her Byakugan or kidnapping Kushina to make use of the Kyuubi. The Byakugan would've been used to increase their military strength, and the Kyuubi would've been used as a weapon. And you say that we've seen Kumo take actions beyond the other villages, but what are these actions? Kidnapping; they aren't the only one obviously. As for Suna, their Daimyo downgraded them, yes. However, the Kazekage wasn't particularly fond of the idea. It was external forces that weakened Suna, in this case the Daimyo of the nation at large. And changing the way you train shinobi isn't disarmament; Kiri didn't necessarily lose strength because of it. To be honest, Kirigakure is probably stronger now that their own people aren't slaughtering one another every other day.

    Quote Quote:
    They both wouldn't have spoke in plurals "just because". You can't simply write off information we're given as false without any proof. Nor can you ignore that the comments were about previous Kages in addition to the current ones. Not sure why you mention Tsunade, when at that point it was Danzo who was Hokage, and it had already been implied that Danzo was involved with them on several layers (having deals with Orochimaru, Itachi, and Obito). And the situation with Kiri isn't all that different then the situation with the other villages aside from Kumo, what with Akatsuki's members ll being missingnins from said villages. Being stated in the series, twice, without anything to imply otherwise, does make it facts.

    Pretty sure we have been talking about the kidnapping of Hinata for some time now, along with Kushina and Rin. And all the villages would have their own torture teams, along with things like Anbu, which would answer only to the Kage.
    I didn't say that they said it 'just because'. We saw the accusation that Akatsuki was formed in Kiri thrown around, we know that wasn't the case. I'm not ignoring the past of certain villages, but this discussion from the very beginning has been focused on the current Kages. As for Tsunade, although she is relevant in the wider discussion, her inclusion on that list was purely my own error. In the case of Danzo, the only relationship between him and Akatsuki proper is when he decided to join Hanzo in attempting to wipe them out. So that doesn't change that there is only one Kage that has been shown to utilise Akatsuki. I'm not sure what the mention of missing-nins is about. And even Kages aren't infallible.

    We've talked about kidnappings, but in the end we're talking about the actions that the current Kages have taken. I dispute that you can attribute the Hyuuga incident to A, and with Kushina's kidnapping happening years before; there's little chance A was involved there. Rin's kidnapping happened before Mei's tenure, so there's that. And simply saying that the villages have torture teams is rather meaningless; we know absolutely nothing about these teams, their potential actions, or how the Kages might've utilised them. So I'm not going to bother trying to address them, or their existence. This debate wasn't about comparing the dealings and crimes of the Five Great Shinobi Villages over the years to the actions of Sasuke, this was about comparing the actions of the current Kages to Sasuke's actions.
    Last edited by Impossibility; July 02, 2013 at 06:09 AM.

  2. #227
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Have you forgotten your argument? It makes a big difference whether Sandaime was facing Konoha shinobi or shinobi of another village, which is why you're arguing that there isn't any evidence that Kumo was engaged against any villages other than Konoha. If Sandaime was facing Konoha, it means that he likely died before the peace treaty and the Hyuuga incident was under the tenure of A. If he was facing another village, it means that the timeframe for Sandaime's tenure is more open, and that the Hyuuga incident could've occurred under him. And there is a history of war between the nations; we are now facing the Fourth Shinobi World War. That means there were three other world wars, that would indicate some pretty frequent fighting between the villages. I don't know how you can argue that Konoha is the only one when we know that Iwa battled against Konoha, but also Suna and Kiri. So at the moment, we know that at least four of the Five Great Villages have engaged and conflicted with at least two others throughout their history. So arguing that there isn't a history of war, or conflict, between the villages is a bit ridiculous.
    Forgotten what? We don't know anything about the situation with the Sandaime Raikage's death or any clues to say one way or another. Until we actually get some more details, it doesn't matter here, since all it would be either way is hypothetical. You can't use an hypothetical to disprove anything, any more then I can use it to prove so. So as I said before, it doesn't matter. And again, Konoha is the only village shown fighting against different nations at once. It's basically been at the center of every war, something that hasn't been shown for any other village. So presuming that Kumo must have been fighting another village while fighting Konoha holds no water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Danzo strengthened himself, but he acted in such ways because he thought he was strengthening the village. I mentioned Oro when talking about ninjas amassing power, I'm not nearly insane enough to argue that he didn't do it for completely selfish reasons. Ao's situation is unknown, but it is extremely unlikely that a Hyuuga willingly handed over their Byakugan to him. That would suggest that he took it. Arguing that Rin is different from Kushina seems a bit silly; they kidnapped her to utilise her ability to use her as a weapon, it isn't any different from attempting to kidnap Hinata to attempt to gain her Byakugan or kidnapping Kushina to make use of the Kyuubi. The Byakugan would've been used to increase their military strength, and the Kyuubi would've been used as a weapon. And you say that we've seen Kumo take actions beyond the other villages, but what are these actions? Kidnapping; they aren't the only one obviously. As for Suna, their Daimyo downgraded them, yes. However, the Kazekage wasn't particularly fond of the idea. It was external forces that weakened Suna, in this case the Daimyo of the nation at large. And changing the way you train shinobi isn't disarmament; Kiri didn't necessarily lose strength because of it. To be honest, Kirigakure is probably stronger now that their own people aren't slaughtering one another every other day.
    Danzo never acted as if he was strengthening the village. In fact, he actively plotted against the village and by all accounts was responsible for it being weakened several times, all for his own desire of power. And we weren't talking about ninjas, we were talking about the villages. Aoi taking it as a spoil of battle or something is meaningless here unless it can be shown being done on orders from the village. Except Kiri didn't kidnap Rin to utilize any ability she had. She didn't even have an ability. It was Kiri who had the "ability" and they gave her the "ability" they intended to use. That is pretty different from the situations with Hinata and Kushina, who were taken specifically so Kumo could get their hands on their unique powers. All Kiri did was kidnap a random person for a suicide plot. Kumo is the only village shown kidnapping people for powers, none of the other villages have done so, unless you count Oto as a village. The Daimyo isn't an external force, he's the commander of the village. The villages can't do anything without getting permissions from their Daimyo's first, as shown when the villages had to get permission to even fight in the Fourth War. And it is disarmament if you're not training them to be as strongly as you previously were. While there clearly are issues with their method, saying that them not killing each other would make them stronger is a leap, especially since we have an example in Konoha to disprove such a notion. Konoha, despite having such a method of training, as been shown to have an inferior force compared to the other villages and maintain it's strength through a small key group of soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I didn't say that they said it 'just because'. We saw the accusation that Akatsuki was formed in Kiri thrown around, we know that wasn't the case. I'm not ignoring the past of certain villages, but this discussion from the very beginning has been focused on the current Kages. As for Tsunade, although she is relevant in the wider discussion, her inclusion on that list was purely my own error. In the case of Danzo, the only relationship between him and Akatsuki proper is when he decided to join Hanzo in attempting to wipe them out. So that doesn't change that there is only one Kage that has been shown to utilise Akatsuki. I'm not sure what the mention of missing-nins is about. And even Kages aren't infallible.
    Not the case? Pretty sure it was shown that Madara/Obito were commanding Kiri, and they were the one who gave Yahiko the idea for Akatsuki. Danzo has a far greater relationship with Akatsuki then that. He had been shown making deals with Obito around the time of the Uchiha massacre, and making use of Orochimaru around that time and before. Since both of them would have been in Akatsuki at that point... The mention of missingnin is towards your comment about Mei's feeling towards Akatsuki. All the villages but Kumo had missingnins in Akatsuki, so they all would have had issues of betrayal, yet that didn't prevent them from using them. So we have two for sure and one unknown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    We've talked about kidnappings, but in the end we're talking about the actions that the current Kages have taken. I dispute that you can attribute the Hyuuga incident to A, and with Kushina's kidnapping happening years before; there's little chance A was involved there. Rin's kidnapping happened before Mei's tenure, so there's that. And simply saying that the villages have torture teams is rather meaningless; we know absolutely nothing about these teams, their potential actions, or how the Kages might've utilised them. So I'm not going to bother trying to address them, or their existence. This debate wasn't about comparing the dealings and crimes of the Five Great Shinobi Villages over the years to the actions of Sasuke, this was about comparing the actions of the current Kages to Sasuke's actions.
    There's more evidence for it being Ee then not, and Rin's kidnapping had to most likely happen under Mei's rule, since it involved a freed Sanbi. There isn't a Mizukage between her and Yagura. I'm not sure what's complex about torture squads. We outright know from Ibiki that they do exactly as their name would suggest. And while the argument about Akatsuki may have involved both current and past generations of Kages, the rest as been all on the current set.

  3. #228
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Forgotten what? We don't know anything about the situation with the Sandaime Raikage's death or any clues to say one way or another. Until we actually get some more details, it doesn't matter here, since all it would be either way is hypothetical. You can't use an hypothetical to disprove anything, any more then I can use it to prove so. So as I said before, it doesn't matter. And again, Konoha is the only village shown fighting against different nations at once. It's basically been at the center of every war, something that hasn't been shown for any other village. So presuming that Kumo must have been fighting another village while fighting Konoha holds no water.
    That's my point; we don't know enough to determine the time of A's tenure. Konoha is simply the focus of the manga, so their battles and role during conflicts are often the focus. The reality is that Iwa and Suna have battled on multiple occasions throughout their history, Iwa betrayed Kiri in the act of taking action against Kumo, have battled Konoha on multiple occasions, and each of these have happened within the span of two generations; the idea that they never fought someone other than Konoha simultaneously just doesn't make any sense. Suna was also involved in the Second Shinobi World War, considering their immense distaste for Iwa, the idea that they were engaged with Iwa at the same time Konoha was doesn't seem like much of a logical leap. The Five Great Villages were each engaged in the Third Shinobi War, as a matter of fact. If Konoha is the only village to have engaged multiple villages at once, that would mean that Konoha fought off the full might of the four other villages simultaneously. With that being said, this portion of the debate has to be over, because that clearly doesn't make any sense. It should be obvious to anyone that takes a look at the information provided, the facts that we know to be facts, that villages other than Konoha have engaged more than one village simultaneously.

    Quote Quote:
    Danzo never acted as if he was strengthening the village. In fact, he actively plotted against the village and by all accounts was responsible for it being weakened several times, all for his own desire of power. And we weren't talking about ninjas, we were talking about the villages. Aoi taking it as a spoil of battle or something is meaningless here unless it can be shown being done on orders from the village. Except Kiri didn't kidnap Rin to utilize any ability she had. She didn't even have an ability. It was Kiri who had the "ability" and they gave her the "ability" they intended to use. That is pretty different from the situations with Hinata and Kushina, who were taken specifically so Kumo could get their hands on their unique powers. All Kiri did was kidnap a random person for a suicide plot. Kumo is the only village shown kidnapping people for powers, none of the other villages have done so, unless you count Oto as a village. The Daimyo isn't an external force, he's the commander of the village. The villages can't do anything without getting permissions from their Daimyo's first, as shown when the villages had to get permission to even fight in the Fourth War. And it is disarmament if you're not training them to be as strongly as you previously were. While there clearly are issues with their method, saying that them not killing each other would make them stronger is a leap, especially since we have an example in Konoha to disprove such a notion. Konoha, despite having such a method of training, as been shown to have an inferior force compared to the other villages and maintain it's strength through a small key group of soldiers.
    I'm not arguing that Danzo strengthened the village, I'm arguing that he thought he did. So Ao gets a free pass with a Hyuuga eye in his socket, but A must be involved with the Hyuuga incident. This seems a bit inconsistent. They kidnapped her to utilise her as a jin, we know that only certain individuals are capable of becoming jins, so in effect they utilised her for that specific trait, or ability. I don't see the distinction. Kumo took Kushina to claim Kurama, who would've been used as a weapon, just as Rin was. Trying to differentiate between the two seems arbitrary. My point about Suna was that the shinobi of Suna didn't decide to disarm, they were forced to. And Kiri didn't stop their ninjas from being as strong, they just made them less murderous and unstable, and that was for the good of the village. I don't see how that can be considered disarmament. And Konoha having a few key shinobi to maintain their strength doesn't seem any different from the other villages; each seems to have a few ninja that are pretty much one-man-armies that serve as their greatest threat.

    Quote Quote:
    Not the case? Pretty sure it was shown that Madara/Obito were commanding Kiri, and they were the one who gave Yahiko the idea for Akatsuki. Danzo has a far greater relationship with Akatsuki then that. He had been shown making deals with Obito around the time of the Uchiha massacre, and making use of Orochimaru around that time and before. Since both of them would have been in Akatsuki at that point... The mention of missingnin is towards your comment about Mei's feeling towards Akatsuki. All the villages but Kumo had missingnins in Akatsuki, so they all would have had issues of betrayal, yet that didn't prevent them from using them. So we have two for sure and one unknown.
    It wasn't the case. Akatsuki was formed in Amegakure, it wasn't formed in Kiri. So, that statement was wrong. A also suggested that Danzo conspired with Akatsuki to engineer Oro and Suna's attack on Konoha, we know that wasn't the case. A said quite a few things during that meeting that were just inaccurate, he was emotional and suspicious, as I said. Can you point out to me where Danzo utilised Akatsuki? He had a relationship with Oro over the years, and we know that he met Tobi, but beyond that I see nothing. The only Kage known to have made use of Akatsuki is Oonoki.

    Quote Quote:
    There's more evidence for it being Ee then not, and Rin's kidnapping had to most likely happen under Mei's rule, since it involved a freed Sanbi. There isn't a Mizukage between her and Yagura. I'm not sure what's complex about torture squads. We outright know from Ibiki that they do exactly as their name would suggest. And while the argument about Akatsuki may have involved both current and past generations of Kages, the rest as been all on the current set.
    There isn't any evidence; there's just a lack of information and some guesswork on your part. How is it that you've come to believe that Rin was kidnapped during Mei's tenure? Mei recently became Mizukage. And there is that glaring fact that Yagura, as Mizukage, was manipulated by Obito, the same Obito who only came to take to Madara's plan after he witnessed Rin's death. So....I don't see how Mei being Mizukage during the Rin incident makes any sense, whatsoever. Try again. There isn't anything complex about 'torture squads', I'm just not prepared to speculate about the actions of groups that we've never seen, I'm even less willing to attribute some possible crimes from some potential groups to any of the Kages. And once again, we have a clear list of crimes and acts that can be attributed to Sasuke, the lists for the Kages aren't anywhere near as extensive.

  4. #229
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    That's my point; we don't know enough to determine the time of A's tenure. Konoha is simply the focus of the manga, so their battles and role during conflicts are often the focus. The reality is that Iwa and Suna have battled on multiple occasions throughout their history, Iwa betrayed Kiri in the act of taking action against Kumo, have battled Konoha on multiple occasions, and each of these have happened within the span of two generations; the idea that they never fought someone other than Konoha simultaneously just doesn't make any sense. Suna was also involved in the Second Shinobi World War, considering their immense distaste for Iwa, the idea that they were engaged with Iwa at the same time Konoha was doesn't seem like much of a logical leap. The Five Great Villages were each engaged in the Third Shinobi War, as a matter of fact. If Konoha is the only village to have engaged multiple villages at once, that would mean that Konoha fought off the full might of the four other villages simultaneously. With that being said, this portion of the debate has to be over, because that clearly doesn't make any sense. It should be obvious to anyone that takes a look at the information provided, the facts that we know to be facts, that villages other than Konoha have engaged more than one village simultaneously.
    But we do have enough. We have various statements to make a reasonable suggestion, without anything to disagree. The series focus on Konoha hasn't meant we haven't learnt the history of the wider world or other villages. Gonna need a link showing the comment about Iwa and Suna, and Iwa and Kiri. Not seeing what's strange about Konoha fighting against the other three villages at once, considering that they have been noted as the strongest village. That seems like a reason feat of the "strongest" village. Anyway, that in no way changes my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm not arguing that Danzo strengthened the village, I'm arguing that he thought he did. So Ao gets a free pass with a Hyuuga eye in his socket, but A must be involved with the Hyuuga incident. This seems a bit inconsistent. They kidnapped her to utilise her as a jin, we know that only certain individuals are capable of becoming jins, so in effect they utilised her for that specific trait, or ability. I don't see the distinction. Kumo took Kushina to claim Kurama, who would've been used as a weapon, just as Rin was. Trying to differentiate between the two seems arbitrary. My point about Suna was that the shinobi of Suna didn't decide to disarm, they were forced to. And Kiri didn't stop their ninjas from being as strong, they just made them less murderous and unstable, and that was for the good of the village. I don't see how that can be considered disarmament. And Konoha having a few key shinobi to maintain their strength doesn't seem any different from the other villages; each seems to have a few ninja that are pretty much one-man-armies that serve as their greatest threat.
    But he didn't think such a thing. He knew fully well what he was doing was wrong. It's not a "free pass" and how is it inconsistent? We don't have a thing to support the idea that Aoi purposely went after the Byakugan on orders from his village, while we know Ee has been amassing ninjutsus and such. That doesn't apply to Rin though. Anyone can take in a Bijuu, as shown by Minato, it's only a few that are capable of actually controlling said power. But Kiri didn't intend for Rin to control it, their plan was specifically for her to lose control within Konoha. So there's a clear distinction between her and Kushina. One was a bomb while the other was an actual Jinchuuriki.

    Moot point since it's the Daimyo who's responsible for deciding major thing for the villages. Less murderous and unstable? Because Konoha doesn't have murderous and unstable people... It was disarmament if you're removing/limiting your armaments. And it has been shown quite different. Both Suna and Iwa's individual forces were able to decimate Konoha's individual forces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It wasn't the case. Akatsuki was formed in Amegakure, it wasn't formed in Kiri. So, that statement was wrong. A also suggested that Danzo conspired with Akatsuki to engineer Oro and Suna's attack on Konoha, we know that wasn't the case. A said quite a few things during that meeting that were just inaccurate, he was emotional and suspicious, as I said. Can you point out to me where Danzo utilised Akatsuki? He had a relationship with Oro over the years, and we know that he met Tobi, but beyond that I see nothing. The only Kage known to have made use of Akatsuki is Oonoki.
    It's not wrong when the one who created Akatsuki was in Kiri. And how wasn't Danzo conspiring when Akatsuki to engineer the attack on Konoha "not the case" when it's been well established that Danzo had plotted against Sarutobi and Konoha several times? And both Orochimaru and Obito were apart of Akatsuki when Danzo was making deals with them and such. if he's using members of Akatsuki, then he's using Akatsuki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    There isn't any evidence; there's just a lack of information and some guesswork on your part. How is it that you've come to believe that Rin was kidnapped during Mei's tenure? Mei recently became Mizukage. And there is that glaring fact that Yagura, as Mizukage, was manipulated by Obito, the same Obito who only came to take to Madara's plan after he witnessed Rin's death. So....I don't see how Mei being Mizukage during the Rin incident makes any sense, whatsoever. Try again. There isn't anything complex about 'torture squads', I'm just not prepared to speculate about the actions of groups that we've never seen, I'm even less willing to attribute some possible crimes from some potential groups to any of the Kages. And once again, we have a clear list of crimes and acts that can be attributed to Sasuke, the lists for the Kages aren't anywhere near as extensive.
    No evidence? We have Yamato's comment, Onoki's comment, and Kumo still being at war when the Sandaime Raikage died. There's no lack of information. It presumably was Mei's tenure since it involved the Sanbi and they reference themselves as the Bloody Mist, meaning it had to have been towards the end of that era since Zabuza was a child at the end of it. Since Rin was killed here, it would have taken some time for it to have reappeared and then recaptured by Kiri to be placed back in Yagura, which doesn't fit with the previous mentioned. Speculate about groups we never seen? But we have seen then via Konoha's squad. It's silly to claim that their crimes aren't more extensive compared to Sasuke who has done pretty minor compared to the standard ninja.

  5. #230
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    But we do have enough. We have various statements to make a reasonable suggestion, without anything to disagree. The series focus on Konoha hasn't meant we haven't learnt the history of the wider world or other villages. Gonna need a link showing the comment about Iwa and Suna, and Iwa and Kiri. Not seeing what's strange about Konoha fighting against the other three villages at once, considering that they have been noted as the strongest village. That seems like a reason feat of the "strongest" village. Anyway, that in no way changes my point.
    The only thing we know for certain about the incident is that while negotiating a peace treaty between Kumo and Konoha, the Head Ninja of Kumo attempted to kidnap Hinata. That is the only thing we actually know. The dispute between Iwa and Kiri originated over the betrayal of Kiri by Iwa after the retrieval of documents from Kumo. The battles over the years between Iwa and Suna have been mentioned before, most recently at the start of the Fourth Shinobi World War. And it wouldn't have been three villages, it would've been four villages. Konoha barely managed to handle an attack from a weakened Suna and Oto, it seems completely unreasonable to think the could handle the four other Great Villages simultaneously.

    Quote Quote:
    But he didn't think such a thing. He knew fully well what he was doing was wrong. It's not a "free pass" and how is it inconsistent? We don't have a thing to support the idea that Aoi purposely went after the Byakugan on orders from his village, while we know Ee has been amassing ninjutsus and such. That doesn't apply to Rin though. Anyone can take in a Bijuu, as shown by Minato, it's only a few that are capable of actually controlling said power. But Kiri didn't intend for Rin to control it, their plan was specifically for her to lose control within Konoha. So there's a clear distinction between her and Kushina. One was a bomb while the other was an actual Jinchuuriki.
    We aren't talking about whether what he was doing was right, we're talking about whether or not he thought it would benefit Konoha. We have more to suggest that Ao was involved with a plan to steal the Byakugan than we have for A; Ao has a Byakugan in his eye socket. We know that A has been accused by others of amassing ninjutsus, and we know that Kumo has done such things in the past. We don't know what actions A might have taken. It's pure speculation. Not anyone can handle a bijuu, we've had mention of it over and over. To be honest, I don't get the point of arguing over this. Kiri kidnapped someone to achieve some ends, Kumo kidnapped someone to achieve some ends. At this point, I'm not even sure how this is relevant to the conversation anymore, so I'm probably just going to move on.

    Quote Quote:
    Moot point since it's the Daimyo who's responsible for deciding major thing for the villages. Less murderous and unstable? Because Konoha doesn't have murderous and unstable people... It was disarmament if you're removing/limiting your armaments. And it has been shown quite different. Both Suna and Iwa's individual forces were able to decimate Konoha's individual forces.
    The Daimyo's involvement in the villages affairs seems to be relatively minor, beyond the choice of the Kage at least. Konoha has some crazy ninja, yes. And those ninjas have caused tons of problems. That's probably why Kiri wanted less shinobi like that. And you've provided the definition of disarmament, but you haven't shown how the change in their training methods meets that definition. When was it that Suna and Iwa's 'individual forces' decimated Konoha's? Considering that you argued about Konoha's strength above, I'm struggling to see how these two arguments fit together.

    Quote Quote:
    It's not wrong when the one who created Akatsuki was in Kiri. And how wasn't Danzo conspiring when Akatsuki to engineer the attack on Konoha "not the case" when it's been well established that Danzo had plotted against Sarutobi and Konoha several times? And both Orochimaru and Obito were apart of Akatsuki when Danzo was making deals with them and such. if he's using members of Akatsuki, then he's using Akatsuki.
    Was Akatsuki formed in Kiri? No. Was Akatsuki formed in Amegakure? Yes. So the assertion that Akatsuki was formed in Kiri is incorrect. Whether someone who was instrumental in the formation of the organization happened to hang out in Kiri doesn't change that fact. Danzo plotted against Sarutobi and Konoha, ok. Now show me where he was involved in Oro and Suna's attack on Konoha. You're addressing things that just aren't relevant. Either Danzo was involved in the plot, or he wasn't. And we know that he wasn't. Any potential dealings between Danzo and Obito remain unknown, and was Oro a member of Akatsuki when Danzo had dealings with him?

    Quote Quote:
    No evidence? We have Yamato's comment, Onoki's comment, and Kumo still being at war when the Sandaime Raikage died. There's no lack of information. It presumably was Mei's tenure since it involved the Sanbi and they reference themselves as the Bloody Mist, meaning it had to have been towards the end of that era since Zabuza was a child at the end of it. Since Rin was killed here, it would have taken some time for it to have reappeared and then recaptured by Kiri to be placed back in Yagura, which doesn't fit with the previous mentioned. Speculate about groups we never seen? But we have seen then via Konoha's squad. It's silly to claim that their crimes aren't more extensive compared to Sasuke who has done pretty minor compared to the standard ninja.
    The accusations you speak of were lodged against Kumo itself, they weren't accusations against A. We know that Kumo was responsible for that, those accusations add nothing beyond that. And Kumo being at war when Sandaime died isn't evidence of anything, considering that we've already established that the villages have been engaged in conflict almost endlessly since their formations.

    As for Mei being Mizukage at the time of the Rin incident, that is just nonsensical. It is simply impossible, and it is ridiculous that I have to explain this again. Obito is saved by Madara. He is nursed backed to health. He's stuck in the cave. He hears of Kiri's activity. He leaves the cave to witness Rin's death. Rin's death at the hands of Kakashi inspires him to take on Madara's cause. At some point after this, Obito manipulates Yagura, the Yondaime Mizukage. If Yagura is Mei's predecessor, and Yagura, as Mizukage was manipulated by Obito. And Obito only decided to do so after Rin's death. How on earth is it possible for Mei to have been Mizukage during the time of Rin's kidnapping? Are you serious? The only way that would be possible is if someone has mastered time travel. Just move on. You've speculated, you've conjectured, and you've just straight out gotten some things wrong. This has gotten far off topic in some ways, and yet my original assertion stands.

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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The only thing we know for certain about the incident is that while negotiating a peace treaty between Kumo and Konoha, the Head Ninja of Kumo attempted to kidnap Hinata. That is the only thing we actually know. The dispute between Iwa and Kiri originated over the betrayal of Kiri by Iwa after the retrieval of documents from Kumo. The battles over the years between Iwa and Suna have been mentioned before, most recently at the start of the Fourth Shinobi World War. And it wouldn't have been three villages, it would've been four villages. Konoha barely managed to handle an attack from a weakened Suna and Oto, it seems completely unreasonable to think the could handle the four other Great Villages simultaneously.
    We also know for a fact that Konoha and Kumo were at war before that, without any mention of any other wars involving them going on. So according to Occam's razor... And you're gonna have to be clearer and provide some links, cause I don't recall either the Iwa/Kiri or mention of Iwa/Suna over the years, especially at the start of the Fourth War. The only mention of war I can recall is the previous world wars. And I'm quire sure Konoha was only up against three other villages, only two being major villages. You're forgetting that Konoha had lost alot of powerful ninjas since then. As I mentioned before, while the standard ninjas of Konoha could barely measure up, the handful of strong ninjas they had could easily even out the balance, such as when Minato wiped out fifty Iwa ninjas himself. Between Minato, the Sannins, and the Uchiha clan, they would have obviously been able to make up for the strength difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    We aren't talking about whether what he was doing was right, we're talking about whether or not he thought it would benefit Konoha. We have more to suggest that Ao was involved with a plan to steal the Byakugan than we have for A; Ao has a Byakugan in his eye socket. We know that A has been accused by others of amassing ninjutsus, and we know that Kumo has done such things in the past. We don't know what actions A might have taken. It's pure speculation. Not anyone can handle a bijuu, we've had mention of it over and over. To be honest, I don't get the point of arguing over this. Kiri kidnapped someone to achieve some ends, Kumo kidnapped someone to achieve some ends. At this point, I'm not even sure how this is relevant to the conversation anymore, so I'm probably just going to move on.
    The point is that Danzo purposely went against the village, fully knowing it wasn't gonna benefit them. No we do not have more to suggest such a thing. In addition to Kiri not having a history of trying to steal powers, Ao directly mentions it as a souvenir of battle. Not once did Ee deny the accusation of amassing power. Not anyone can control a Bijuu, but since Kiri wasn't expecting Rin to control it, your example is moot. There have been several examples of Jinchuuriki incapable of controlling the Bijuus and said Bijuus going wild in a village. There's clearly a huge difference between kidnapping someone to make into a bomb and kidnapping someone to gain their unique power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The Daimyo's involvement in the villages affairs seems to be relatively minor, beyond the choice of the Kage at least. Konoha has some crazy ninja, yes. And those ninjas have caused tons of problems. That's probably why Kiri wanted less shinobi like that. And you've provided the definition of disarmament, but you haven't shown how the change in their training methods meets that definition. When was it that Suna and Iwa's 'individual forces' decimated Konoha's? Considering that you argued about Konoha's strength above, I'm struggling to see how these two arguments fit together.
    Minor? Pretty sure deciding when and if to go to war isn't minor. What crazy ninjas have Konoha had? All the Konoha ninjas that have caused problems didn't end up the way they did due to being trained that way, so that's makes the whole changing training method claim moot, had the fact that their training being nothing alike already done that. Kiri making their ninjas less violent and willing to due what it takes would obviously lower their skills in and ability to handle war. We see that with Konoha. The Oto/Suna invasion of 200 was shown to have devastated Konoha and Iwa's standard nins were shown outmatching Konoha's ninjas during the Third War. Considering I had previous began this discussion mentioning how Konoha's strength resided in a handful of powerful ninjas, it's not that complex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Was Akatsuki formed in Kiri? No. Was Akatsuki formed in Amegakure? Yes. So the assertion that Akatsuki was formed in Kiri is incorrect. Whether someone who was instrumental in the formation of the organization happened to hang out in Kiri doesn't change that fact. Danzo plotted against Sarutobi and Konoha, ok. Now show me where he was involved in Oro and Suna's attack on Konoha. You're addressing things that just aren't relevant. Either Danzo was involved in the plot, or he wasn't. And we know that he wasn't. Any potential dealings between Danzo and Obito remain unknown, and was Oro a member of Akatsuki when Danzo had dealings with him?
    Madara/Obito formed Akatsuki. They formed it while in Kiri. They are the one who made "Akatsuki" into Akatsuki, changing it from a group of revolutionaries fighting for peace to a group composed of a bunch of S-rank criminals. Therefore it was formed in Kiri. Here, the implication that Danzo was involved. You keep saying "we know he wasn't", which isn't true at all. There's nothing at all to suggest Danzo didn't have a hand in it, especially since he has a history of similar actions. His dealing with Obito involved the Uchiha massacre, and yeah, Orochimaru was still a member of Akatsuki when Danzo had dealings with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The accusations you speak of were lodged against Kumo itself, they weren't accusations against A. We know that Kumo was responsible for that, those accusations add nothing beyond that. And Kumo being at war when Sandaime died isn't evidence of anything, considering that we've already established that the villages have been engaged in conflict almost endlessly since their formations.
    Considering Kakashi's follow-up and the use of "you", pretty sure they were lodged at Ee himself. And given that the only war we know Kumo was involved with at that time was with Konoha, it's enough evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    As for Mei being Mizukage at the time of the Rin incident, that is just nonsensical. It is simply impossible, and it is ridiculous that I have to explain this again. Obito is saved by Madara. He is nursed backed to health. He's stuck in the cave. He hears of Kiri's activity. He leaves the cave to witness Rin's death. Rin's death at the hands of Kakashi inspires him to take on Madara's cause. At some point after this, Obito manipulates Yagura, the Yondaime Mizukage. If Yagura is Mei's predecessor, and Yagura, as Mizukage was manipulated by Obito. And Obito only decided to do so after Rin's death. How on earth is it possible for Mei to have been Mizukage during the time of Rin's kidnapping? Are you serious? The only way that would be possible is if someone has mastered time travel. Just move on. You've speculated, you've conjectured, and you've just straight out gotten some things wrong. This has gotten far off topic in some ways, and yet my original assertion stands.
    So exactly how do you explain the fact that they were the Bloody Mist, which was the title during Yagura's rule, or the fact that Zabuza was a child when he graduated eleven years ago near the end of the era and an adult when he fought Kakashi and co, meaning at least a decade had passed, or Kakashi stating it had been long ago, or Mei calling the rule of Yagura the old days and "long over", or even the previous mentioned fact that Rin's death would have meant the death of the Sanbi and it's later rebirth somewhere else. Your claim requires Yagura's rule to have been relatively recent, which just doesn't make sense with everything that has been shown. The only piece of evidences to support such a conclusion is the piece about Yagura being manipulated, and given that the person's face was never actually shown, it's still ambiguous. So the fact is that it's neither speculation nor conjecture. The timeline may not be consistent or definitive, but multiple pieces of evidence point to Yagura's rule and the Bloody Mist era being around a decade before as opposed to a single piece of enigmatic evidence implying it was recent.

  7. #232
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    We also know for a fact that Konoha and Kumo were at war before that, without any mention of any other wars involving them going on. So according to Occam's razor... And you're gonna have to be clearer and provide some links, cause I don't recall either the Iwa/Kiri or mention of Iwa/Suna over the years, especially at the start of the Fourth War. The only mention of war I can recall is the previous world wars. And I'm quire sure Konoha was only up against three other villages, only two being major villages. You're forgetting that Konoha had lost alot of powerful ninjas since then. As I mentioned before, while the standard ninjas of Konoha could barely measure up, the handful of strong ninjas they had could easily even out the balance, such as when Minato wiped out fifty Iwa ninjas himself. Between Minato, the Sannins, and the Uchiha clan, they would have obviously been able to make up for the strength difference.
    Occam's razor? Seriously? Hardly appropriate, but if you wish to decide this discussion by Parsimony's Principle, these side discussions are entirely irrelevant. We have a list of crimes that are known to be Sasuke's doing, while you've put forth a list of crimes for the Kages that are based on assumptions. Discussion over, imagine that. Since we've gotten there, I'm just going to point out some serious flaws in your argument, particularly since we seem to be way off-topic at this point, and I just can't be bothered scouring for links to talks about the history of the villages. Your link shows Pain and Hanzo, who aren't even remotely relevant. Hanzo was involved in the Second Shinobi World War, I referenced the Third Shinobi World War. So, wrong again. And to point out, the other villages have powerful, elite shinobi too.

    Quote Quote:
    The point is that Danzo purposely went against the village, fully knowing it wasn't gonna benefit them. No we do not have more to suggest such a thing. In addition to Kiri not having a history of trying to steal powers, Ao directly mentions it as a souvenir of battle. Not once did Ee deny the accusation of amassing power. Not anyone can control a Bijuu, but since Kiri wasn't expecting Rin to control it, your example is moot. There have been several examples of Jinchuuriki incapable of controlling the Bijuus and said Bijuus going wild in a village. There's clearly a huge difference between kidnapping someone to make into a bomb and kidnapping someone to gain their unique power.
    This discussion about Danzo has veered into the unnecessary and only vaguely relevant. Danzo thought that what he was doing was best for Konoha in the long term. He might've gone about it in the wrong way, but his intent remains. As for jinchuurikis, the villages go to far extents to find someone capable of bearing a bijuu. It isn't just a matter of control, only a few have ever been able to control their respective bijuus. The suggestion that the Gold & Silver Brothers were distantly related to the Sage because of their ability to assimilate the chakra of a bijuu indicates handling the chakra of a bijuu is a special skill. As for differentiating between the different kidnappings, I'm over it...it's barely relevant and one of the many things dragging this on.

    Quote Quote:
    Minor? Pretty sure deciding when and if to go to war isn't minor. What crazy ninjas have Konoha had? All the Konoha ninjas that have caused problems didn't end up the way they did due to being trained that way, so that's makes the whole changing training method claim moot, had the fact that their training being nothing alike already done that. Kiri making their ninjas less violent and willing to due what it takes would obviously lower their skills in and ability to handle war. We see that with Konoha. The Oto/Suna invasion of 200 was shown to have devastated Konoha and Iwa's standard nins were shown outmatching Konoha's ninjas during the Third War. Considering I had previous began this discussion mentioning how Konoha's strength resided in a handful of powerful ninjas, it's not that complex.
    Another side argument. Kiri making ninjas less violent doesn't equate to disarmament. To say that Kiri disarmed, you have to show that Kiri's military might significantly decreased because of their change in training methods. We don't have anything to suggest that was the case, it would seem to be the opposite. They were able to establish order, and bring an end to the internal conflict, in order to strengthen the village. The Oto/Suna invasion was a surprise attack. As soon as Konoha had brought their civilians to safety, they turned the tides. You mention a handful of powerful ninja, but we saw quite a few ninja getting in on the action to bring the invasion to an end. And you specifically mention Minato's intervention during the battle with Iwa. We don't know enough about the battle. Konoha might've been overwhelmed by numbers, Iwa could've sent higher ranked shinobi, some of their elites. Simply saying that the other villages have superior forces because of a single battle is meaningless. Yes, Minato alone was able to turn the tide. But I don't see how that is any different from Sandaime Raikage taking on an army alone, that is even more of a solo feat. Konoha isn't the only village with a handful of ninjas that make up the core of their military strength. The difference in class within villages is obvious, it is the main reason a few Edos from amongst the villages were so effective against the Allied Forces.

    Quote Quote:
    Madara/Obito formed Akatsuki. They formed it while in Kiri. They are the one who made "Akatsuki" into Akatsuki, changing it from a group of revolutionaries fighting for peace to a group composed of a bunch of S-rank criminals. Therefore it was formed in Kiri. Here, the implication that Danzo was involved. You keep saying "we know he wasn't", which isn't true at all. There's nothing at all to suggest Danzo didn't have a hand in it, especially since he has a history of similar actions. His dealing with Obito involved the Uchiha massacre, and yeah, Orochimaru was still a member of Akatsuki when Danzo had dealings with him.
    And here I was with the impression that Akatsuki was formed by Yahiko in Amegakure with shinobi from Amegakure. Yahiko was encouraged to do so, but the fact remains. Akatsuki was formed in Amegakure. And saying that there's nothing to suggest that Danzo wasn't involved is possibly the most desperate argument I've ever seen from you. We have nothing to suggest that he was involved. We have no idea what Danzo and Obito discussed and whether anything beyond that discussion ever happened. And what evidence is there to suggest that Oro was a member of Akatsuki when Danzo had dealings with him? This is a serious question because I know he wasn't later on, but I can't be bothered to try to work out Oro's earlier relationship with Danzo, in terms of timeframe.

    Quote Quote:
    Considering Kakashi's follow-up and the use of "you", pretty sure they were lodged at Ee himself. And given that the only war we know Kumo was involved with at that time was with Konoha, it's enough evidence.
    So Kakashi using the word 'you' when talking to A and asking him to forgive Sasuke is now evidence that A was involved with the Hyuuga incident. Yeah, this had definitely been going on for too long.

    Quote Quote:
    So exactly how do you explain the fact that they were the Bloody Mist, which was the title during Yagura's rule, or the fact that Zabuza was a child when he graduated eleven years ago near the end of the era and an adult when he fought Kakashi and co, meaning at least a decade had passed, or Kakashi stating it had been long ago, or Mei calling the rule of Yagura the old days and "long over", or even the previous mentioned fact that Rin's death would have meant the death of the Sanbi and it's later rebirth somewhere else. Your claim requires Yagura's rule to have been relatively recent, which just doesn't make sense with everything that has been shown. The only piece of evidences to support such a conclusion is the piece about Yagura being manipulated, and given that the person's face was never actually shown, it's still ambiguous. So the fact is that it's neither speculation nor conjecture. The timeline may not be consistent or definitive, but multiple pieces of evidence point to Yagura's rule and the Bloody Mist era being around a decade before as opposed to a single piece of enigmatic evidence implying it was recent.
    The crux of your argument seems to be that Kiri was known as 'The Bloody Mist' during Yagura's rule. Was that title established during Yagura's tenure? Just wondering if you could show me where he was responsible for that name. I should point out that the Rin incident happened more than 15 years ago, since you seem to be trying to put together some timeframe for your own purposes. Since you mention Mei; Mei has only recently become Mizukage, we know this. Mei has also actively attempted to change the reputation of Kiri. Neither of those things fit with an incident more than 15 years ago that involves kidnapping a girl to use as a weapon. I don't see why the rebirth of the Sanbi changes anything, what would stop Kiri from recapturing it? My claim doesn't require Yagura to have ruled recently, unless you consider 15 years recent. Another thing about timeframe; Mei is 30. If Mei was Mizukage at the time of the Rin incident, she would've had to have become a Kage at 15, at the oldest. Not in itself unheard of, considering Gaara. However, I don't think Gaara would've been considered so young if a Kage across from him had attained the rank of Kage at the same time, or possibly even younger. Yagura is considered the Sanbi's last jinchuuriki, he was the host for the Sanbi after Rin. If Yagura's rule is as you say, a 'decade before', that would be after the Rin incident. The timeframe you've put forth actively supports what I've already stated. This argument is just ludicrous at this point.

    This has gone on for far too long, and we've moved on to topics that aren't relevant to the thread. I'm happy to stick with your suggestion of keeping it simple and to what we know. I'm just going to point to my list of what we actually know about the activities of Sasuke and the Kages that I put forward so long ago.
    Last edited by Impossibility; July 05, 2013 at 04:20 AM.

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  9. #233
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    So er, what makes Sasuke an asshole? Or at least, worse asshole than other characters in the manga who've arguably done worse stuff than he has?

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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I showed two examples where the Enton flames spread and incinerated their target quickly, and pointed out several times where the Amaterasu flames didn't spread or burn quickly. I can easily point to Itachi setting Pain's dog and Edo Nagato on fire as further examples of Amaterasu not exactly burning quickly. During the fight with Kabuto, both were used with similar effect.

    Sasuke wasn't focusing on either Karin or the Hachibi, which is the point. The burning is up to the user, not some inherent property of the flames themselves.
    What do you mean the flames were not focused on Hachibi's head? It's true that it put up its tentacle and the flames started spreading from there instead, but the flames were focused on a certain point regardless. I suggest you give the points I mentioned another long and hard thought as the flame has different properties depending upon eye focus element, its use as a defense, or lost focus etc. There is nothing to debate here.

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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Occam's razor? Seriously? Hardly appropriate, but if you wish to decide this discussion by Parsimony's Principle, these side discussions are entirely irrelevant. We have a list of crimes that are known to be Sasuke's doing, while you've put forth a list of crimes for the Kages that are based on assumptions. Discussion over, imagine that. Since we've gotten there, I'm just going to point out some serious flaws in your argument, particularly since we seem to be way off-topic at this point, and I just can't be bothered scouring for links to talks about the history of the villages. Your link shows Pain and Hanzo, who aren't even remotely relevant. Hanzo was involved in the Second Shinobi World War, I referenced the Third Shinobi World War. So, wrong again. And to point out, the other villages have powerful, elite shinobi too.
    Occam's razor is perfectly appropriate. We have the series outright telling us what Ee and the other Kages have done, without anything stating or showing differently. And claiming that you "can't be bothered" says a lot about your argument. As for my link, you really need to pay attention. That wasn't the Second World War, during which the Ame orphans were just children, that was the Third World War, after Jiraiya had left and they became revolutionaries. The elites of the other village can't compare to the elites of Konoha, that's been acknowledged several times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This discussion about Danzo has veered into the unnecessary and only vaguely relevant. Danzo thought that what he was doing was best for Konoha in the long term. He might've gone about it in the wrong way, but his intent remains. As for jinchuurikis, the villages go to far extents to find someone capable of bearing a bijuu. It isn't just a matter of control, only a few have ever been able to control their respective bijuus. The suggestion that the Gold & Silver Brothers were distantly related to the Sage because of their ability to assimilate the chakra of a bijuu indicates handling the chakra of a bijuu is a special skill. As for differentiating between the different kidnappings, I'm over it...it's barely relevant and one of the many things dragging this on.
    Considering this whole discussion was about crimes the Kages at the summit commented, it's quite relevant. Him willing sacrificing Konoha ninjas by the dozens for his own desire and willing to allow the village to be wiped out shows he wasn't even thinking about the best for Konoha. If that's the way it works, then I can easily claim that Sasuke did what he did "for the best of Konoha" too. Far extents to find someone capable of bearing the Bijuu? Suna tested the Kazekage's children as was regular practice according to what was said at the summit, Kumo had some sort of physical competition, and Minato dropped the Kyuubi in Naruto on pure faith. So in two of the examples we've seen, the villages hardly extended themselves. And it's all about control. Jinchuuriki incapable of control normally end up being consumed by their Bijuus. And KinGin didn't just handle the chakra, they literally became real Jinchuurikis in complete control. Claiming something isn't relevant doesn't suddenly make it irrelevant or you any less wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Another side argument. Kiri making ninjas less violent doesn't equate to disarmament. To say that Kiri disarmed, you have to show that Kiri's military might significantly decreased because of their change in training methods. We don't have anything to suggest that was the case, it would seem to be the opposite. They were able to establish order, and bring an end to the internal conflict, in order to strengthen the village. The Oto/Suna invasion was a surprise attack. As soon as Konoha had brought their civilians to safety, they turned the tides. You mention a handful of powerful ninja, but we saw quite a few ninja getting in on the action to bring the invasion to an end. And you specifically mention Minato's intervention during the battle with Iwa. We don't know enough about the battle. Konoha might've been overwhelmed by numbers, Iwa could've sent higher ranked shinobi, some of their elites. Simply saying that the other villages have superior forces because of a single battle is meaningless. Yes, Minato alone was able to turn the tide. But I don't see how that is any different from Sandaime Raikage taking on an army alone, that is even more of a solo feat. Konoha isn't the only village with a handful of ninjas that make up the core of their military strength. The difference in class within villages is obvious, it is the main reason a few Edos from amongst the villages were so effective against the Allied Forces.
    Yes it does. Less violent makes them less dangerous, it's quite obvious. They already had order, and their actions had nothing to do with ending internal conflict since the sole internal conflict was the coup removing Yagura. Turnt the tide? Them fighting didn't turn the tide or end the invasion. What ended the invasion was the lost of Gaara and Orochimaru losing his arms to Sarutobi, at which point he called for the retreat. If your assumption was true, then the fighting would have already been over before that point and Konoha wouldn't have suffered so much damage. Considering we saw the battlefield full of dead Konoha ninjas, it seems quite unlikely they got overwhelm by a force of fifty. How is it meaningless when we see Konoha's forces being greatly defeated by Iwa's forces? And while the other villages have their own elite ninja or two, Konoha is the only one with numerous elite and powerful ninjas. And the majority of Edo summons were far from effective. Only a couple were actually effective as in eliminating an entire battlefield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And here I was with the impression that Akatsuki was formed by Yahiko in Amegakure with shinobi from Amegakure. Yahiko was encouraged to do so, but the fact remains. Akatsuki was formed in Amegakure. And saying that there's nothing to suggest that Danzo wasn't involved is possibly the most desperate argument I've ever seen from you. We have nothing to suggest that he was involved. We have no idea what Danzo and Obito discussed and whether anything beyond that discussion ever happened. And what evidence is there to suggest that Oro was a member of Akatsuki when Danzo had dealings with him? This is a serious question because I know he wasn't later on, but I can't be bothered to try to work out Oro's earlier relationship with Danzo, in terms of timeframe.
    You should reread the series, cause your impression is wrong. As mentioned before, Yahiko's "Akatsuki" was nothing like Akatsuki in look, make-up, or goal. They were a bunch of Ame revolutionaries looking to create peace, not a bunch of S-rank ninjas plotting to take over the world using the Bijuus. If you can't understand the difference, I can't help you. Nothing to suggest Danzo wasn't involved? We have Ee's comments, Obito's comments, and his history all to do just that, to suggest that he was involved. Discussion? Where exactly did you come up with the belief that Danzo and Obito merely had a discussion during the Uchiha massacre? That makes no sense. The far more obvious belief would be they were dividing up the spoils of that night, the numerous Sharingans. And Orochimaru was a member of Akatsuki soon after he left Konoha, and didn't leave the group til some time after Itachi joined, which was after the Uchiha massacre. Since we know Danzo had dealing with Orochimaru after the massacre had happen, he was clearly dealing with Orochimaru during his time in Akatsuki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So Kakashi using the word 'you' when talking to A and asking him to forgive Sasuke is now evidence that A was involved with the Hyuuga incident. Yeah, this had definitely been going on for too long.
    Um, Yamato uses the word too. Kakashi's comment was just to show that there was a clear difference when they spoke of Ee and when they spoke of the village.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The crux of your argument seems to be that Kiri was known as 'The Bloody Mist' during Yagura's rule. Was that title established during Yagura's tenure? Just wondering if you could show me where he was responsible for that name. I should point out that the Rin incident happened more than 15 years ago, since you seem to be trying to put together some timeframe for your own purposes. Since you mention Mei; Mei has only recently become Mizukage, we know this. Mei has also actively attempted to change the reputation of Kiri. Neither of those things fit with an incident more than 15 years ago that involves kidnapping a girl to use as a weapon. I don't see why the rebirth of the Sanbi changes anything, what would stop Kiri from recapturing it? My claim doesn't require Yagura to have ruled recently, unless you consider 15 years recent. Another thing about timeframe; Mei is 30. If Mei was Mizukage at the time of the Rin incident, she would've had to have become a Kage at 15, at the oldest. Not in itself unheard of, considering Gaara. However, I don't think Gaara would've been considered so young if a Kage across from him had attained the rank of Kage at the same time, or possibly even younger. Yagura is considered the Sanbi's last jinchuuriki, he was the host for the Sanbi after Rin. If Yagura's rule is as you say, a 'decade before', that would be after the Rin incident. The timeframe you've put forth actively supports what I've already stated. This argument is just ludicrous at this point.
    Yes, the era known as the Bloody Mist was under Yagura's rule. The second fanbook and Suigetsu's databook entry both state so. Yeah, from the current point in the series it would have been 15 years ago, and 12 years ago when Kakashi and Zabuza both gave us a timing of about a decade and some. Also, the Rin incident didn't happen more then 15 years ago, it happen exactly 14/15 years ago, seeing as Kakashi is currently 29/30 years old and he was 13 when Obito died. So that only leaves at most two years between Obito's "death" and Naruto's birth. And Mei herself mentions how Yagura's rule was long ago and in the old days. Unless Kiri was missing a Kage for a while, his rule couldn't have been that long ago. By your own argument, his rule would have had to be recent too, right? Mei actively attempting to change things doesn't go against anything I've said, since clearly things wouldn't have simply changed overnight. It would take years for the Sanbi to be reborn, and then more for them to find it again, placing those events quite recent and going against Mei's claim about Yagur's reign being a long time ago. And why wouldn't Gaara be considered the youngest at the summit when he was the youngest at the summit? Yagura was the last known Jinchuuriki, obvious the situation with Rin wouldn't be known. What's ludicrous is you ignoring the facts that we have already been given and outright statements expressing that a long time had passed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This has gone on for far too long, and we've moved on to topics that aren't relevant to the thread. I'm happy to stick with your suggestion of keeping it simple and to what we know. I'm just going to point to my list of what we actually know about the activities of Sasuke and the Kages that I put forward so long ago.
    I have backed up everything I've claim with statements from the actual series to show that the Kages have worst, whereas you have nothing to support the belief they didn't do as they were accused of. No counterclaim, no denial on their part, no flashback showing differently. When the series states something, you can't simply deny it or argue it's not true unless there's something in the series to back that up.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    What do you mean the flames were not focused on Hachibi's head? It's true that it put up its tentacle and the flames started spreading from there instead, but the flames were focused on a certain point regardless. I suggest you give the points I mentioned another long and hard thought as the flame has different properties depending upon eye focus element, its use as a defense, or lost focus etc. There is nothing to debate here.
    Focus as in concentrated. He simply shot out the flames and covered it, no deep concentration to torch through. The flames acting differently when the user desires it doesn't mean the flames have different properties. It means that the user is using them differently. I've given numerous examples showing the flames themselves have the same properties.

  12. #236
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Occam's razor is perfectly appropriate. We have the series outright telling us what Ee and the other Kages have done, without anything stating or showing differently. And claiming that you "can't be bothered" says a lot about your argument. As for my link, you really need to pay attention. That wasn't the Second World War, during which the Ame orphans were just children, that was the Third World War, after Jiraiya had left and they became revolutionaries. The elites of the other village can't compare to the elites of Konoha, that's been acknowledged several times.
    This is getting painful. I can't be bothered because I don't care enough. As for your link, they are referencing the Second Shinobi World War. The conflict between Suna, Iwa, and Konoha that raged throughout Amegakure was the Second Shinobi World War. The Third Shinobi World War was fought across Kusagakure, and this war involved the five villages. This is getting embarrassing for you. And when was it that someone pointed out that the elites from the other villages couldn't compare to the elites from Konoha? This suggestion seems a bit ridiculous when you look at the members of Akatsuki, the Kages, and the Edos summoned. We've also seen what some of the other villages' elites are capable of during the war. The only individuals that set themselves apart are Madara and Hashirama; individuals who've been out of the picture for some time.

    Quote Quote:
    Considering this whole discussion was about crimes the Kages at the summit commented, it's quite relevant. Him willing sacrificing Konoha ninjas by the dozens for his own desire and willing to allow the village to be wiped out shows he wasn't even thinking about the best for Konoha. If that's the way it works, then I can easily claim that Sasuke did what he did "for the best of Konoha" too. Far extents to find someone capable of bearing the Bijuu? Suna tested the Kazekage's children as was regular practice according to what was said at the summit, Kumo had some sort of physical competition, and Minato dropped the Kyuubi in Naruto on pure faith. So in two of the examples we've seen, the villages hardly extended themselves. And it's all about control. Jinchuuriki incapable of control normally end up being consumed by their Bijuus. And KinGin didn't just handle the chakra, they literally became real Jinchuurikis in complete control. Claiming something isn't relevant doesn't suddenly make it irrelevant or you any less wrong.
    Actually, this whole discussion was about the crimes of the current Kage. Danzo was brought up in the context of the summit, and as an example of what has been done in the name of some of the villages. Once again, not arguing about Danzo's intentions. That has long been made clear. Not just anyone can be a jinchuuriki, the fact that Suna tested for compatibility is evidence of that. And the reference to Minato seems pointless, Naruto is an Uzumaki. He is inherently suited to handle a jinchuuriki because of this. And since we're talking about the crimes committed by the Kages and Sasuke, the process of choosing a jin is wholly irrelevant to this discussion, and isn't worth the attention.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes it does. Less violent makes them less dangerous, it's quite obvious. They already had order, and their actions had nothing to do with ending internal conflict since the sole internal conflict was the coup removing Yagura. Turnt the tide? Them fighting didn't turn the tide or end the invasion. What ended the invasion was the lost of Gaara and Orochimaru losing his arms to Sarutobi, at which point he called for the retreat. If your assumption was true, then the fighting would have already been over before that point and Konoha wouldn't have suffered so much damage. Considering we saw the battlefield full of dead Konoha ninjas, it seems quite unlikely they got overwhelm by a force of fifty. How is it meaningless when we see Konoha's forces being greatly defeated by Iwa's forces? And while the other villages have their own elite ninja or two, Konoha is the only one with numerous elite and powerful ninjas. And the majority of Edo summons were far from effective. Only a couple were actually effective as in eliminating an entire battlefield.
    You've yet to show how Kiri's change in training amounts to disarmament; there isn't anything to suggest that their military might was reduced as a result of these changes. One only needs to look at the decision to end the graduation process that involved students murdering one another; it ended because one student wiped out the entire class. They weren't better off because of that method, so they changed it. Gaara wasn't even in the village, and Oro and Sarutobi were engaged in a battle that was completely separate and apart from the battle to secure Konoha. By the time Oro had ended his battle with Sarutobi, the shinobi of Konoha had already brought down the invaders. We don't know enough about the battle at Iwa to draw the broad conclusion that Iwa's general forces are superior to Konoha's. The other villages have more than one or two elite ninja; the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist, Mei, Yagura for Kiri, A, Bee, Yugito, Darui, Sandaime, and the Gold and Silver Brothers for Kumo, Oonoki, Muu, Deidara, Akatsuchi, Gari, Han, Roshi, and Kitsuchi for Iwa, and Gaara, Chiyo, Pakura, Sasori, Sandaime, and Yondaime. Those are just the ones that came to mind. Each of the villages have quite a few elites, we've just seen more action from Konoha's. The fighting strength of the villages is also off-topic. I don't see any reason to continue this.

    Quote Quote:
    You should reread the series, cause your impression is wrong. As mentioned before, Yahiko's "Akatsuki" was nothing like Akatsuki in look, make-up, or goal. They were a bunch of Ame revolutionaries looking to create peace, not a bunch of S-rank ninjas plotting to take over the world using the Bijuus. If you can't understand the difference, I can't help you. Nothing to suggest Danzo wasn't involved? We have Ee's comments, Obito's comments, and his history all to do just that, to suggest that he was involved. Discussion? Where exactly did you come up with the belief that Danzo and Obito merely had a discussion during the Uchiha massacre? That makes no sense. The far more obvious belief would be they were dividing up the spoils of that night, the numerous Sharingans. And Orochimaru was a member of Akatsuki soon after he left Konoha, and didn't leave the group til some time after Itachi joined, which was after the Uchiha massacre. Since we know Danzo had dealing with Orochimaru after the massacre had happen, he was clearly dealing with Orochimaru during his time in Akatsuki.
    You're attempting to differentiate one organisation from the other. Akatsuki's make-up and goals might've changed, but the organisation remained Akatsuki. You've moved beyond ridiculous at this point. Danzo wasn't involved in Oro's plot to destroy Konoha. Danzo was shady, yes. People were willing to believe anything about him, yes. However, we have absolutely nothing to link him to the invasion of Konoha. What you consider obvious is beyond what we have been provided with, it is speculation. And you say Oro was a member of Akatsuki soon after he left Konoha, how soon? Is there something that definitively links Oro to Akatsuki at the time of his dealings with Danzo?

    Quote Quote:
    Um, Yamato uses the word too. Kakashi's comment was just to show that there was a clear difference when they spoke of Ee and when they spoke of the village.
    Yamamoto uses the word 'you', so what? He also uses the term 'we' in the same sentence, he isn't speaking of himself and the group he was with, but rather Konoha. 'You' references Kumo, and 'we' references Konoha.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes, the era known as the Bloody Mist was under Yagura's rule. The second fanbook and Suigetsu's databook entry both state so. Yeah, from the current point in the series it would have been 15 years ago, and 12 years ago when Kakashi and Zabuza both gave us a timing of about a decade and some. Also, the Rin incident didn't happen more then 15 years ago, it happen exactly 14/15 years ago, seeing as Kakashi is currently 29/30 years old and he was 13 when Obito died. So that only leaves at most two years between Obito's "death" and Naruto's birth. And Mei herself mentions how Yagura's rule was long ago and in the old days. Unless Kiri was missing a Kage for a while, his rule couldn't have been that long ago. By your own argument, his rule would have had to be recent too, right? Mei actively attempting to change things doesn't go against anything I've said, since clearly things wouldn't have simply changed overnight. It would take years for the Sanbi to be reborn, and then more for them to find it again, placing those events quite recent and going against Mei's claim about Yagur's reign being a long time ago. And why wouldn't Gaara be considered the youngest at the summit when he was the youngest at the summit? Yagura was the last known Jinchuuriki, obvious the situation with Rin wouldn't be known. What's ludicrous is you ignoring the facts that we have already been given and outright statements expressing that a long time had passed.
    I didn't ask whether Kiri was known as the 'Bloody Mist' during Yagura's tenure, I asked whether it became known as the 'Bloody Mist' during his tenure. Two very different things. 'The Bloody Mist' existed as a moniker for Kiri even before Yagura's term as Mizukage. Exactly 14/15 years ago? Really? The Rin incident happened before Obito's attack on Konoha. Obito's attack coincided with Naruto's birth. Naruto is how old? Dude, get your facts sorted before you bother to write this stuff. Yes, Mei ordering a kidnapping in order to use a girl as a weapon against Konoha goes against the position of improving the reputation of Kiri. My reference was to point out the reaction to Gaara's age, if Mei had ascended to Mizukage at a comparable age or even younger, which would be required under the sequence you've put forth, their reactions would've been out of place. There is far too much that makes it clear that Mei wasn't Mizukage at the time of the Rin incident for you to be continuing with this.


    Quote Quote:
    I have backed up everything I've claim with statements from the actual series to show that the Kages have worst, whereas you have nothing to support the belief they didn't do as they were accused of. No counterclaim, no denial on their part, no flashback showing differently. When the series states something, you can't simply deny it or argue it's not true unless there's something in the series to back that up.
    Your statements haven't shown anything, you don't even have a grasp of the links you're putting forward. Your entire argument is based on a few accusations. The series hasn't stated something, someone within the series has stated something. Two very different things.

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  14. #237
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This is getting painful. I can't be bothered because I don't care enough. As for your link, they are referencing the Second Shinobi World War. The conflict between Suna, Iwa, and Konoha that raged throughout Amegakure was the Second Shinobi World War. The Third Shinobi World War was fought across Kusagakure, and this war involved the five villages. This is getting embarrassing for you. And when was it that someone pointed out that the elites from the other villages couldn't compare to the elites from Konoha? This suggestion seems a bit ridiculous when you look at the members of Akatsuki, the Kages, and the Edos summoned. We've also seen what some of the other villages' elites are capable of during the war. The only individuals that set themselves apart are Madara and Hashirama; individuals who've been out of the picture for some time.
    This is getting painful. So you're gonna sit there and claim that Nagato was referring to the Second World War, despite him talking about the Ame orphans as adults being tricked and the events of Yahiko's death, even though we saw them as children being trained by Jiraiya after said war and young teens upon meeting Obito during the Third War? Nowhere in the series was it stated that the Third World War involved all five major villages. Konoha fighting Iwa across Kusa does not mean that the entire war took place there. Ee acknowledged Minato and Shikaku, Chiyo acknowledged Tsunade and the Uchiha clan, Pain acknowledged Jiraiya, Hanzou acknowledged the Sannins, and Obito acknowledged the Hokages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Actually, this whole discussion was about the crimes of the current Kage. Danzo was brought up in the context of the summit, and as an example of what has been done in the name of some of the villages. Once again, not arguing about Danzo's intentions. That has long been made clear. Not just anyone can be a jinchuuriki, the fact that Suna tested for compatibility is evidence of that. And the reference to Minato seems pointless, Naruto is an Uzumaki. He is inherently suited to handle a jinchuuriki because of this. And since we're talking about the crimes committed by the Kages and Sasuke, the process of choosing a jin is wholly irrelevant to this discussion, and isn't worth the attention.
    This specific discussion was about the villages and disarmament, with you bring up Danzo as an example of the opposite. Danzo's actions had nothing to do with the village and were done solely for himself. No, them testing compatibility only shows that not everyone can control a Bijuu. And no, Naruto being a Uzumaki didn't make him inherently anything. Both Mito and Kushina were chosen not because they were Uzumaki, but because they had unique chakra. Heck, Minato himself became a Jinchuuriki, without any testing or such. And the Jinchuuriki is quite relevant to an argument about armament/disarmament.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You've yet to show how Kiri's change in training amounts to disarmament; there isn't anything to suggest that their military might was reduced as a result of these changes. One only needs to look at the decision to end the graduation process that involved students murdering one another; it ended because one student wiped out the entire class. They weren't better off because of that method, so they changed it. Gaara wasn't even in the village, and Oro and Sarutobi were engaged in a battle that was completely separate and apart from the battle to secure Konoha. By the time Oro had ended his battle with Sarutobi, the shinobi of Konoha had already brought down the invaders. We don't know enough about the battle at Iwa to draw the broad conclusion that Iwa's general forces are superior to Konoha's. The other villages have more than one or two elite ninja; the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist, Mei, Yagura for Kiri, A, Bee, Yugito, Darui, Sandaime, and the Gold and Silver Brothers for Kumo, Oonoki, Muu, Deidara, Akatsuchi, Gari, Han, Roshi, and Kitsuchi for Iwa, and Gaara, Chiyo, Pakura, Sasori, Sandaime, and Yondaime. Those are just the ones that came to mind. Each of the villages have quite a few elites, we've just seen more action from Konoha's. The fighting strength of the villages is also off-topic. I don't see any reason to continue this.
    Considered I pointed to Konoha as an example of what such training would amount to, quite sure I have showed as such. Heck, because of it's changes, Kiri has lost all but one of it's unique swords. And them allowing the surviving students to become ninjas as oppose to picking a small handful and then sending the rest of the graduates away is clearly not as different. Gaara's removal from the village is the entire reason the plan couldn't be gone through with and Konoha hadn't brought down the Oto/Suna ninjas before Orochimaru had them retreat. No such thing was shown. Exactly what more do we need to know that the Iwa's standard forces were superior to Konoha's standard forces. We're talking elite ninjas, not just high-ranking ninjas, thus the reason I didn't mention the likes of Kakashi, Gai, and others. Only a handful of those ninjas are elite and could change an entire battle alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You're attempting to differentiate one organisation from the other. Akatsuki's make-up and goals might've changed, but the organisation remained Akatsuki. You've moved beyond ridiculous at this point. Danzo wasn't involved in Oro's plot to destroy Konoha. Danzo was shady, yes. People were willing to believe anything about him, yes. However, we have absolutely nothing to link him to the invasion of Konoha. What you consider obvious is beyond what we have been provided with, it is speculation. And you say Oro was a member of Akatsuki soon after he left Konoha, how soon? Is there something that definitively links Oro to Akatsuki at the time of his dealings with Danzo?
    I'm not attempting anything, they are different. If everything about them is different except the names, then they are clearly not the same thing. What's ridiculous is making claims that are neither supported or even implied. Danzo was more then shady, he was outright criminal with a history of both working with Orochimaru and plotting against the village. Those two easily link him to it, whereas there's nothing to counter the claim. We were told it, making it more then speculation. Um, as mentioned before, we know that Orochimaru was in Akatsuki during the time of the Uchiha massacre and he didn't leave til some time afterward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yamamoto uses the word 'you', so what? He also uses the term 'we' in the same sentence, he isn't speaking of himself and the group he was with, but rather Konoha. 'You' references Kumo, and 'we' references Konoha.
    If "we" itself meant Konoha, then he wouldn't have followed that with stating the word "Konoha". For that to work, Yamato would have had to say something like "You of Kumo"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I didn't ask whether Kiri was known as the 'Bloody Mist' during Yagura's tenure, I asked whether it became known as the 'Bloody Mist' during his tenure. Two very different things. 'The Bloody Mist' existed as a moniker for Kiri even before Yagura's term as Mizukage. Exactly 14/15 years ago? Really? The Rin incident happened before Obito's attack on Konoha. Obito's attack coincided with Naruto's birth. Naruto is how old? Dude, get your facts sorted before you bother to write this stuff. Yes, Mei ordering a kidnapping in order to use a girl as a weapon against Konoha goes against the position of improving the reputation of Kiri. My reference was to point out the reaction to Gaara's age, if Mei had ascended to Mizukage at a comparable age or even younger, which would be required under the sequence you've put forth, their reactions would've been out of place. There is far too much that makes it clear that Mei wasn't Mizukage at the time of the Rin incident for you to be continuing with this.
    And it did, as I had pointed with said evidence. Where was it shown or stated that the Bloody Mist title existed before Yagura? You're the one who needs to get your facts straight. As I pointed out, Kakashi is currently 29/30 years old, according to the databooks. He had just turnt 13 the day that Obito "died". That leaves two years before Naruto was born, making it exactly 14/15 years ago that these events could have happen. Exactly what does Mei wanting to change Kiri's history and reputation of genocide and civil murder have to do with attacking another village? Those are completely separate things. And no, there's nothing out of place. You're acting as if they were shocked or surprised by it. All you have is Onoki commenting that Gaara must be something special, which does not preclude anyone else being just as special.

    Too much? You haven't given anything that "makes it clear" and completely ignoring that Yagura's time was repeatedly mention as being a long time ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Your statements haven't shown anything, you don't even have a grasp of the links you're putting forward. Your entire argument is based on a few accusations. The series hasn't stated something, someone within the series has stated something. Two very different things.
    No, they aren't different things. All the facts we get in the series are given to us by characters. It's simply ridiculous to claim that us being told something isn't true. By that logic, I see no reason to believe Madara is evil or that the Rikudou Sennin actually beat the Juubi, despite the series having characters tell us this stuff.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    So er, what makes Sasuke an asshole?
    From what I'm reading, you guys aren't on topic anymore.

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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Well, it began as a discussion on why Sasuke wasn't any worst then any of the Kages, and how he has done less crappy stuff then them...

  17. #240
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    Re: Sasuke remains an asshole

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    This is getting painful. So you're gonna sit there and claim that Nagato was referring to the Second World War, despite him talking about the Ame orphans as adults being tricked and the events of Yahiko's death, even though we saw them as children being trained by Jiraiya after said war and young teens upon meeting Obito during the Third War? Nowhere in the series was it stated that the Third World War involved all five major villages. Konoha fighting Iwa across Kusa does not mean that the entire war took place there. Ee acknowledged Minato and Shikaku, Chiyo acknowledged Tsunade and the Uchiha clan, Pain acknowledged Jiraiya, Hanzou acknowledged the Sannins, and Obito acknowledged the Hokages.
    Are you being daft on purpose? What about your link shows that the conflict he spoke of wasn't the Second World War; he says they were 'still' in the middle of war. He was talking about the Second Shinobi World War. And if you'd stopped and thought for just a moment, you'd have remembered those battles between Minato and A, and the subsequent peace treaty, and Kiri's kidnapping and attempt to destroy Konoha with a bijuu from within. Seriously, get it together. And I don't even know what that list of acknowledgements is meant to show.

    Quote Quote:
    This specific discussion was about the villages and disarmament, with you bring up Danzo as an example of the opposite. Danzo's actions had nothing to do with the village and were done solely for himself. No, them testing compatibility only shows that not everyone can control a Bijuu. And no, Naruto being a Uzumaki didn't make him inherently anything. Both Mito and Kushina were chosen not because they were Uzumaki, but because they had unique chakra. Heck, Minato himself became a Jinchuuriki, without any testing or such. And the Jinchuuriki is quite relevant to an argument about armament/disarmament.
    Danzo wished to protect Konoha, albeit in his own twisted way. He remained vigilant in eliminating threats to Konoha, he was willing to give up his life for his team, and he tried to bring Sasuke and Obito to their graves to save Konoha. I don't understand why this is even being discussed. As for the Jins, they came up in the context of Rin's kidnapping and your attempt to differentiate her kidnapping from Kushina and Hinata's. Although, their continued use could easily be an argument against the idea of disarmament on the parts of the villages. This has veered to the completely out of focus, as some have pointed out.

    Quote Quote:
    Considered I pointed to Konoha as an example of what such training would amount to, quite sure I have showed as such. Heck, because of it's changes, Kiri has lost all but one of it's unique swords. And them allowing the surviving students to become ninjas as oppose to picking a small handful and then sending the rest of the graduates away is clearly not as different. Gaara's removal from the village is the entire reason the plan couldn't be gone through with and Konoha hadn't brought down the Oto/Suna ninjas before Orochimaru had them retreat. No such thing was shown. Exactly what more do we need to know that the Iwa's standard forces were superior to Konoha's standard forces. We're talking elite ninjas, not just high-ranking ninjas, thus the reason I didn't mention the likes of Kakashi, Gai, and others. Only a handful of those ninjas are elite and could change an entire battle alone.
    And you have something to show that Konoha's shinobi are weaker than Kiri's were? You've attempted to say Konoha's elites are beyond those of any of the other villages; they were trained using what you obviously consider to be Konoha's less effective methods. You haven't even come close to showing that Kiri was weaker after changing the way they trained shinobi. As for the Seven Swordsmen, Zabuza and Kisame were murderous shinobi that ran off with their blades, and we've little clue about the remaining four. Although, their bearers were probably from that same murderous generation, so I don't understand how Kiri's new training approach factors into this. You're just saying anything and everything at this point, regardless of whether or not there is even a shred of evidence to support it. As for the Konoha invasion, one jin fought another, one leader fought another, and at the end of the day it was Konoha's forces that defeated the combined forces of Oto and Suna. And as I've already pointed out, we know next to nothing about that particular battle between Iwa and Konoha, so drawing broad conclusions from it is absolutely meaningless. This entire thread of discussion is far off-topic at this point.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm not attempting anything, they are different. If everything about them is different except the names, then they are clearly not the same thing. What's ridiculous is making claims that are neither supported or even implied. Danzo was more then shady, he was outright criminal with a history of both working with Orochimaru and plotting against the village. Those two easily link him to it, whereas there's nothing to counter the claim. We were told it, making it more then speculation. Um, as mentioned before, we know that Orochimaru was in Akatsuki during the time of the Uchiha massacre and he didn't leave til some time afterward.
    Everything wasn't different. Nagato and Konan remained at the forefront, Amegakure continued to serve as a central operations base, those snazzy uniforms stuck around, and they continued to wield influence as an organisation that had an eventual goal of peace. Up until her death, Konan considered Akatsuki to be Yahiko's organisation. Danzo is a bad guy, we get it. But that isn't enough to attribute everything that goes wrong in Konoha to him. We've seen his past relationship with Oro, his numerous dealings and seemingly endless crimes, but we haven't seen anything that links him in any shape or form to the Oto/Suna invasion. So, can you show me where Danzo dealt with Oro while he was a member of Akatsuki?

    Quote Quote:
    If "we" itself meant Konoha, then he wouldn't have followed that with stating the word "Konoha". For that to work, Yamato would have had to say something like "You of Kumo"...
    He used the word Konoha first, just for your record. And I'm absolutely certain that it wasn't Yamamoto, Kakashi, and Naruto that had to swallow bloody tears to maintain peace between the two villages. 'We' meant Konoha. Stop trying so hard to be absolutely wrong.

    Quote Quote:
    And it did, as I had pointed with said evidence. Where was it shown or stated that the Bloody Mist title existed before Yagura? You're the one who needs to get your facts straight. As I pointed out, Kakashi is currently 29/30 years old, according to the databooks. He had just turnt 13 the day that Obito "died". That leaves two years before Naruto was born, making it exactly 14/15 years ago that these events could have happen. Exactly what does Mei wanting to change Kiri's history and reputation of genocide and civil murder have to do with attacking another village? Those are completely separate things. And no, there's nothing out of place. You're acting as if they were shocked or surprised by it. All you have is Onoki commenting that Gaara must be something special, which does not preclude anyone else being just as special.

    Too much? You haven't given anything that "makes it clear" and completely ignoring that Yagura's time was repeatedly mention as being a long time ago.
    Where was it shown that Yagura was the one that established that title? Rin's kidnapping happened before Naruto's birth, fact. Yet your 'exact' timing of the event is less than Naruto's age. Are you seriously trying to look foolish on this one? This is beyond what should be expected. It is clear that Mei wasn't Mizukage during the Rin incident; her age, her reputation, the sequence of events, the timeframe, Obito's subsequent involvement with Yagura, Kisame and Yagura's interactions, Zabuza's assassination attempt, the history of Kirigakure, the list is exhaustive. And yet, here we are with you arguing against something that should be so easy to get. Your argument comes down to the name of Kiri at the time, and the fact that someone said that Yagura's reign was long gone. We don't know when it was that Kiri became known as the Bloody Mist, which makes that argument meaningless. And we can't quantify 'long', a decade ago might be long, twelve years maybe. Both would allow for Mei to become Mizukage after the Rin incident. You have everything suggesting otherwise, yet you continue to hold onto shreds of seemingly absolutely nothing. You can't even grasp basic concepts of time, at this point. This conversation just needs to end.


    Quote Quote:
    No, they aren't different things. All the facts we get in the series are given to us by characters. It's simply ridiculous to claim that us being told something isn't true. By that logic, I see no reason to believe Madara is evil or that the Rikudou Sennin actually beat the Juubi, despite the series having characters tell us this stuff.
    A list of things that characters have said that are just wrong would go on almost endlessly. The crimes laid out against Sasuke exceed those that can be attributed to the Kages. To be honest, even if you accept the accusations laid out against the current Kages, Sasuke's list is still worse when compared to any one of them. So, I don't see how you think you're making any sense.
    Last edited by Impossibility; July 07, 2013 at 04:21 AM.

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