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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
But for now I just couldn't get pass a few facts:
For example, the Japanese evolves in such a way that it's written upside-down.
And secondly, if there were ever Titans on our timeline, the Oriental race would have been scarce and I probably wouldn't exist today myself, not to mention the whole history from ~9th Century AD onward would run down a different course. This could mean that there is mostly likely no Crusades, no Hundred Years War between England and France, Tokugawa wouldn't have established his Shogunate (if he existed in the first place,) no Spaniards interfering with the Aztecs, no British Empire, and so on. There may be parallels to real events, but it's hard to think that they would be exactly the same.
Since many important decisive factors in the fate of history (such as the ones listed above ) are changed, the world today would have been a very, very different place.
I was thinking of 8500-850 BC not AD. But we still don't know whether there are other humans living outside the walls though. For all we know, if there were humans outside the walls, then there's probably a variety of races out there. But nah. This theory is way too unlikely.
If it was B.C, it would have been specified. If one were to simply write "850," it would instantly imply A.D because the A.D doesn't technically need specifying. 850 B.C is never called "The year 850" because it works in reverse ever since Jesus Christ. When Jesus came on the scene, our concept of recording time had changed. Since the author of this manga is living after this change, you can bet on him using the current timelineOriginally Posted by Yumpo
Oh yeah. I totally forgot BC works in reverse! T-T
I still doubt that the theory though. I mean if the author had the right to change history in the story, then they wouldn't be using our current timeline, but an alternate one. Unless the civilization inside the walls are just experiments and that the world isn't actually roaming with plenty of titans, or time machines were used, that is.
Ah I'm just really conscious of these things because I do physics (albeit not very accomplished lol.) Since we're on this topic, I'll try to make some parallels to our real world.
For their technological advancement, I think the most promising piece of evidence would be the use of compressed gas in canisters (for 3D maneuvering.) In our real world, the concept of pressurised liquids stored in cans date from the late 1700s/ early 1800s, when they tried to invent carbonated drinks. However, compressing gas involves a leap in technology, since compressing gas into containers under high pressure is much more dangerous. It took about 100 years to take away much of the risk when dealing with pressure vessels.
The second piece of invention that is outstanding is canned food (shown as canned herring.) This concept also dates back to the late 1700s/ early 1800s, although they used glass jars to begin with. They then involved tin cans, but it wasn't for another 100 years or so before they perfected the canning technique.
I can safely say the current technology in SnK Universe is at least early 20th century real world standard, but since the two aforementioned inventions look so refined, I can probably add about 50 years to the count. I do notice the lack of technology involving electricity for the general public, but given the situation it is most likely impossible to get enough energy around the town. Maintaining power plants, utility poles for overhead power lines and the likes are probably not an effective investment. Since the general public does not benefit from electrical technology, it is natural that it doesn't get developed.
Whether it is due to a lack of fuel/resources or simply being a non-necessity, cars/trains that should have been developed seem to be non-existent on the SnK timeline. Since their physics seem to agree with our real world, so I'm quite certain it will develop similar technology after this Titan crisis.
(Just that I still wouldn't exist lol, unless Mikasa is my ancestor.)
---------- Post added at 11:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 AM ----------
(I've updated the first post with more spoiler and bits of translation on the spoiler people!!!)
Ok, how about this. Let's say it really is 850 B.C. I understand what Fayte wrote, but just hear me out.
Now forget the current storyline, let's say we are in 12th century. Medieval with gunpowder, even some steampunk technology. The world has been a long time under titan control. The only human survivors develop a timemachine with steampunk technology to go back in time and try to change the course of history. Imagine something like this:
But still, they couldn't have known what excatly to do. What could they do in past, that could change the present if they can't even fight them off now. This is also foreshadowed a few times:
Still, they send back titan shifters together with all the technology and science about titans. They explain to the human leaders what was going to happen, and together, with their technology and human leaders influence, they manage to prepare the walls before the outbreak. The collosal titans for the walls were maybe prisoners injected with injection like Eren, but a different one. One that would make them unable to leave their titan state and somehow desinged to create the walls around it. After that, as long the sunlight doesn't fall on those titans inside, they will remain that way, otherwise they could go havoc!
Also, this would make sense with translations from the covers:
"Those who gained passage aboard the ships were only a small fraction composed of the rich and powerful."
The human shifters from 12th century also explain the human leaders that, by their calendar, this year now is 850 B.C. Since the human population that moved inside the walls embraced the 12th century culture together with their technology, they started to call it year 850 as well. They left out the B.C. part so not to confuse and reveal anything to general population. It would also explain the idea of religion that was brought from the future:
Actually, I just realized that the titans came 107 years before year 845. Meaning the outbreak began in 738. So before that was when they came from the future. I'm too lazy to edit the years above, but it doesn't change anything so just keep that in mind..
Anyways, where was I, ah.. Titan shifters and royalty were working together, trying to find a way to maybe kill the Ape titan(s), who are the cause of invasion, but at one point the royalty that was inside the wall decided that they have no interest in what is going to happen in 2000 years for now. They have a nice big wall that's been protecting them, and they live a luxurius life and don't want to change anything. Basically, they are rotten to the core!
The shifter titans are betrayed, some maybe murdered, and their children want to take revenge on humanity.
Even earlier, Annie said this about her father, that could indicate her father's strugle to change the history:
Annie, Ryner and Berth start breaking down the walls. Annie and Berth are focused on their mission, but Ryner couldn't handle it, developing a split personality, that explained a lot of weird behavior like saving Connie and generaly behaving like a really nice guy.
But then, they notice a glimmer a hope, the one who caused all this. This was the information they originaly needed. The Ape titan's location:
Ymir was posibly one of the titans created by the royalty, and was used to kill human shifters during the betrayal?
Eren's basement: Time Machine? With all the knowledge of the situation stored in some way?
Historia Reiss, maybe an heir to the throne, maybe that's why she is so important. Maybe the titan shifter want to make a Coup d'état on royalty and use Historia to restore autority later on.
Also, another foreshadowing about the timetravel perhaps, showing that they are aware of the future plot?
So, theory loose ends, holes etc., let me hear them. We can bounce ideas around.
Last edited by ImmortalZodd; June 08, 2013 at 12:24 PM.
Ah, I have never thought about sending resources back in order to prepare for the crisis. This is certainly something to consider.
Over the month, I don't think I have come across of a single comment fully in support of Time Leap or whatever you call it (at least within the non-Japanese community.) My idea for Time Leap is actually very very broad, and I suppose ImmortalZodd you wouldn't like time machines to be involved either? :P But two main reasons I can't deny the possibility:
- Author's said inspiration from Muv-Luv Alt
- First sequence in Chapter 1 (the mysterious girl in one of the first panels)
Inspiration doesn't necessarily mean an exact copy, and one thing for certain, I can see there are tons of settings other than a time-travelling device that could have inspired SnK.
However, due to the nature of Chapter 1 (being extremely similar to MLA opening sequence,) our of the three possibilities whom the girl could have come from (dream, past, future,) I weigh the third option equally, or even heavier, than the first two.
Random point: (Lol dude your year-talk confuses me :P ) It can't be B.C., because 845 B.C. would come after 850 B.C., which doesn't seem to be the case. Also, I doubt anyone would be counting down to a future year (i.e. year 0) when they do their calendars lol. Just a minor point.
I also haven't thought about the Ape being not from this time. I can say for sure, Titans are definitely NOT common knowledge prior to year 738. This means they could either:
- Be creation of human
- Come from another dimension/world/time
- Live in hiding for the history of humanity
And after 107 years of struggle, in 845, we get the Chapter titled: To you, in 2000 years. Remember what Reiner says to Ymir in the Chapter 46? "Do you think this world has a future?" Let's assume the title in Chapter 1 is a reference to a story underplot, this highly suggests the world is still intact in the year 845+2000. Now, if it were a pure Titan victory against humanity, do you really think Isayama would phrase it as "To you?" For a human(-struggling)-centric series, I doubt the "You" would be referring to anything other than human, or at least "You" must be on the side of Eren and Mikasa. The worst case scenario would be, the final humans have gone into hiding. The better scenario would be, Titans have been purged from this world, and this is a simple retelling of a story.
A very interesting point in the following, not necessarily about anything to do with the Time talk. This probably goes better in the Ape Titan thread but I'll say it here for now. I will connect the following points together.
Finding the Ape means R&B going home.
Ymir's safety is not guaranteed.
R&B have once been attacked by Ymir, most likely before they have found their Shifter powers.
The Ape has something to do with people turning into Titans (presumably in Connie's village.) (I predict that Ymir is right on this. Reiner stops her from guessing who the real enemy is, meaning he thinks she's on the right track. Therefore, everything she has said in Chapter 46 should be things Reiner knows are true.)
These Titans can roam at night.
Disclaimer: I haven't eliminated all the impossible, nor have I considered all the possibilities, but from first impression this is what I get:
The Ape has the method to turn people into special Titans whom can roam at night. Assuming the R&B and Ape are on the same side (because finding Ape somehow = home,) after Ymir's attack on R&B, they could have then been 'saved' by the Ape to join the its cause.
This is also the reason I wouldn't exactly say R&B are directly involved with the Time-play, but rather they have simply been convinced of a dying world that cannot be saved. I personally don't think a time-traveller has come on-screen yet, if there would ever be one. Foreseeing the general direction this world is heading to doesn't necessarily mean knowing exactly what would happen. Simply "despair" in Reiner's heart can do the trick.
What I'm more concerned about is when Reiner (rhetorically) asks, "Do you think this world has a future?" If I assume "this world" means humanity the way we know it, there are (at least) two ways to interpret this:
- This "humanity" is doing something that R&B tries to prevent. Meaning humanity is ultimately destroying itself.
- This "humanity" is the weaker of the world and thus will naturally die off, sooner or later, to the stronger race.
Will continue writing more later, I'm going to eat lol.
Yeah, but Ymir didn't seem to know exactly what that titan is. She only realized it's importance by Ryner and Berth reaction.Quote:
And no, I wouldn't like time machines nor time travel to be involved at all. But since it's likely it will happen, I'm just trying to generata some ideas
I even like your idea about Mikasa having an ability to send Eren back in time, instead of there being a time machine. But then I just can't get around the 2000 years scope, ie. why would there be identical Mikasa and Eren 2000 years in the future.
- Finding that Ape, let it declare 'mission complete' and take them home.
- Finding that Ape, finishing it off, then go home.
I'm gonna leave this idea open-ended lol...
And yes, do keep the ideas coming :P The more the merrier haha!
I guess when I first started this thread, I wasn't intending to fit everything together congruently. In fact, I didn't link the title (2000 years) to 'sending Eren back,' i.e. I was thinking, sending Eren back happens within the lifetime of Mikasa. If that makes it clearer
I can't be helped but think about how weirdly the way Reiner's talk in the latest chapter is worded.
Here he seems to be implying that they initially thought the "coordinate" they were looking for was Eren. But R&B are not at all sure about that being the case. Also, "when the time comes, the search will definitely be much easier if Christa is here" on their side.
Also, in the following page, it's made clear they can't go on with the mission just yet, but "the next time we come here...". They are positive about the additional info/resources they are gathering. Berth: "and then... we'll never come here again". Reiner: "yeah... and then all our work will be done".
C'mon, are they really planning to return to the wall at a later time? After blowing up their cover? And managing to rescue Annie and win Christa over to their cause as well?
Also, the words "time", "here" and "then" pop up an awful lot in a few sentences.
This is essentially why I'm more and more thinking the Warriors group can travel through time and are in a loop of sorts. They are looking for a "coordinate". I find that very strange. They are not looking for a "person", a "thing", a "place", a "target" or for "something". They specifically use the "coordinate" term (although I hope this is just not a case of sloppy translation).
Coordinates have sense when you consider them in a spatial sense (ie a geographic location), but time is a coordinate as well (from modern science we do know the space-time, understandable as a 4D coordinate system, is a very actual thing).
So in my mind, R&B are looking for something important which they know should be happening/presenting itself somewhere inside the walls at some point in time.
They thought they found the "coordinate" in the person of Eren, hence they opted to kidnap him. But still, it's very evident they are not at all sure Eren is what they were looking for. In fact they do try and make provisions for their next attempt, if it turns out Eren was not the "coordinate".
They did collect additional intelligence during this expedition: they found out about Christa's true identity, and also about /THAT/.
They are withdrawing for the time being, but the next time (ie. in the next loop) they come here (ie. in this place and time).
Oh, and I would say their "hometown" (another recurring word which often pops up but seems like holding a much deeper sense then in the usual usage for the term) might be a place in another time too: they always talk about it like they've been missing from it for an awful lot of time, and also is somewhere they won't be able to easily return to anytime soon. It's been said they'll be able to return to their hometown only after completing the mission, and finding out about the Ape location seems to be part of that as well. So, maybe they're stuck in the time loop until the mission is completed.
The coordinate could also be both in space and time. Maybe for ground zero so they can stop it? It would make sense that Crista would come in handy since her family was passed a secret for generations? So she could know what, where and when 'the outbrake' happened.
And I like the idea about them coming back in another loop, since it just didn't make sense them talking about going back in the current context.
I also agree about their hometown being at another time, Reiner even hinted it pretty hard here:
Just one thing I want to add and put it out there for speculation.
Assuming Ymir has some sort of understanding/grasp of the whole situation, while Reiner doesn't particularly deny her suspicion:
"Finding the Ape means they can go home"
Any idea how to slot this into your "coordinate" theory? (I'm gonna call it that in the first post lol)
Or are there still certain bits of evidence missing?
Also, Annie's crystallisation could have anticipated future people to un-crystallise her. Who knows. In that case, her promise to her father about "going back home" will finally make sense.
Even though I started the thread, I'm sorta somewhat against time loops because it can get really messy, but I personally love the idea, and currently your posts make the most sense for the few phrases they use ("coordinate," "next time" etc.) as well as Christa's role in their agenda.
I think you are reading too much into things. I know the author likes to use small details as links to events as the story advances but this idea of time travel from the future looks kinda vague. Maybe future chapters will show i am wrong but right now i prefer not to buy this hypothesis. Better be surprised than disappointed later.
When it comes to the Ape Titan, I'm really clueless.
The thing about the Ape is, R&B really looked to be surprised by seeing it. I can't tell why exactly, ie if they weren't expecting to see the Ape in the slightest or for some other reason.
I honestly don't know how the Ape could fit in a time-leap context. It's evident he hasn't been up with humanity's whereabouts in recent times, but still it seems like he has investigated humans before. Maybe it is looping in time as well and, if humans didn't have the 3DM gear in the previous loop, then its comment about it ("you developed something interesting") might make sense. Just a very casual guess though.
BTW, I don't really think Ymir has much of a grasp about what's really going on. She knows something, most likely, but she's far from having the whole picture. I'm of this opinion mainly because of how she deducted stuff based on whatever R&B where willing to talk about and their reaction to the Ape. Might also be she knows more than she's willing to show, although I don't think that's the case.
Oh, and given how Reiner wanted to be secretive to Ymir's questioning about the Ape, I think there's a mild chance that the /THAT/ Reiner was mentioning could indeed be the Ape. Given they didn't know about the Ape before seeing it at Utgard, this added info might play in their favor with completing the mission "the next time".
I'm still not at all sure myself about how likely it might be for shifters to be leaping or looping in time, but I really can't deny there definitely is something pesky going on about how lots of things are being worded here. It's so confusing and makes very little sense unless you trow some bizarre theory around. It just happens a time-leaping motif seems to fit-in pretty nicely.
And yeah, things tend to get incredibly messy when authors start playing with the time continuity, but we shall see.