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Thread: Time Leap

  1. #31
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: Time Leap

    Quote Originally Posted by Bandreus View Post
    I think A LOT of evidence is still missing regarding, well, basically everything in the manga, really.

    When it comes to the Ape Titan, I'm really clueless.

    The thing about the Ape is, R&B really looked to be surprised by seeing it. I can't tell why exactly, ie if they weren't expecting to see the Ape in the slightest or for some other reason.

    I honestly don't know how the Ape could fit in a time-leap context. It's evident he hasn't been up with humanity's whereabouts in recent times, but still it seems like he has investigated humans before. Maybe it is looping in time as well and, if humans didn't have the 3DM gear in the previous loop, then its comment about it ("you developed something interesting") might make sense. Just a very casual guess though.

    BTW, I don't really think Ymir has much of a grasp about what's really going on. She knows something, most likely, but she's far from having the whole picture. I'm of this opinion mainly because of how she deducted stuff based on whatever R&B where willing to talk about and their reaction to the Ape. Might also be she knows more than she's willing to show, although I don't think that's the case.

    Oh, and given how Reiner wanted to be secretive to Ymir's questioning about the Ape, I think there's a mild chance that the /THAT/ Reiner was mentioning could indeed be the Ape. Given they didn't know about the Ape before seeing it at Utgard, this added info might play in their favor with completing the mission "the next time".

    I'm still not at all sure myself about how likely it might be for shifters to be leaping or looping in time, but I really can't deny there definitely is something pesky going on about how lots of things are being worded here. It's so confusing and makes very little sense unless you trow some bizarre theory around. It just happens a time-leaping motif seems to fit-in pretty nicely.

    And yeah, things tend to get incredibly messy when authors start playing with the time continuity, but we shall see.

    Yeah pretty much lol, there's absolutely no evidence for more or less everything but suggestions are dotted around here and there... and most are subjected to various explanations.

    Judging from R&B's reaction to the Ape, it could be possible it is the /THAT/ they refer to.

    As for Ymir, I think she does have a basic grasp of the situation, not fully, but she's definitely on the right track. But I'm pretty sure she knows who the real enemy is, or at least have the same knowledge as R&B on that matter.

    Anyway, a long while before more new info I assume, we're probably getting some action next right? lol

  2. #32
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Time Leap

    Quote Originally Posted by Utsune View Post
    Anyway, a long while before more new info I assume, we're probably getting some action next right? lol
    Maybe? I honestly thought we were going to get 0 new info in 47, and see what we got. We might still be getting some tidbits of info in the midst of an eventual fight.

    But yeah, most likely Shifters vs. Scouting Legion is bound to happen, at least in some order. I have the feeling Irvine and Armin prepared one of their badass plans, those guys are scary. Also chances are Mikasa will be severely pissed off.

    But still, somehow, it just looked like Ymir was seriously confident they could grab Christa and just outrun their trailers. We shall see.

    If I had to make a prediction, I'd say they manage to kidnap Christa, but Eren gets freed and Ymir dies in the process.

  3. #33
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member ImmortalZodd's Avatar
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    Re: Time Leap

    So now they know when and where Ape Titan appears so they can easily get him in the next loop?

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  5. #34
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    Re: Time Leap

    Well, considering how R&B were all "Eren, stop being a dick and just come with us since, you know, we don't really have to exterminate humans anymore", and that seemed to be linked at least in some regards to the Ape Titan being spotted...

    I really don't know, but if I had to guess at it, R&B's mission started as a "kill all humans" project, only to drift more towards a "the info we gathered is so cool, let's retreat instead" one.

    IF the time-loop is actually a thing, I think the simple fact that "we now know the Ape is involved with this" might end up being major for whatever Greater Cause the Warriors are pursuing, yes.

    In a sense, yes, knowing about the Ape whereabouts, plus knowing about Christa's true identity, plus /THAT/ (unless /THAT/ was the Ape), would make her mission much easier the next time (loop).

    Oh and also, it looks like R&B would have been very interested into following the Ape, if only all the mess with having to take off their cover and being chased by the Scouting Legion didn't happen.

  6. #35
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: Time Leap

    One more idea, I'm starting to think, maybe Mikasa's tattoo has something to do with the "Coordinate." So my evidence-less speculation is, Eren turns out not to be whom they're looking for, but Mikasa and her informative tattoo.

    At the moment I think there are a couple of possible reasons leading up to making Eren the coordinate.

    Eren transforms during their second attack, and RBA sees the significance of that transformation as their "coordinate." Here, I assume they don't see Eren important at all prior to that. This means either:

    1) Eren himself is the significant existence they've been looking for; or
    2) the cause/reason for which Eren turns into a Titan is what they're looking for (and hence need Eren's help.)

    Referring to a human as a "coordinate" doesn't makes sense, and ultimately (space-time aside) the word might be used to describe an event. Therefore, I'm more lenient towards the (2)nd option. In this case, I won't be surprised if Mikasa also turns out to be a Shifter later on, should RBA got it wrong.

    Mikasa's (and probably her mum's) tattoo could be something Grisha picked up on. Maybe there is a secret code (or something of the sort) within the design, and Grisha notices it as an insider of the Titan crisis. If that's so, then their Oriental clan would probably be something significant later on, too. But this is me speaking with fanfic mode turned on.



    The other scenario is:
    Spoiler show


    (Unimportant useless point, so I've put it in spoiler just so that I can say I've considered other ideas lol.)



    Also, Eren knowing to injure himself in order to transform is leftover memories from his previous experience/existence. That is either his lost memories with his father, or memories of himself from another time/universe.

    On a slightly related note, I'm going for Parallel Universe instead of simply Time Travelling. Time Loop is stealing from Muv-Luv Alt too much lol, also there is no way the nature of the Loop is something like Higurashi, while Steins;Gate type of Loop means any small action will affect the future (if they come from the future, they will be careful not to change it or something like that.) However, Parallel Universe solves all these problems.



    Fanfic mode off.

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  8. #36
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    Re: Time Leap

    Well yeah, as far as we know anything goes really. All is still that much open-ended.

    Mikasa certainly stands among the most interesting figures in the manga: her origins are a bit of a mystery in itself, she's believed to be the last of her kind, her clan probably disappeared as well, the tattoo, her supernatural strength... I don't know if she's going to be a shifter as well, but even if that ends up not being the case, she certainly is special in more than one way.

    As far as RBA knowing in advance Eren would be a shifter... I don't know. As I see it, either way might work:
    - Maybe they knew a shifter would appear sometime inside the walls but they were unsure about its true identity (this might also partially explain why RB are so surprised with seeing the Ape later on)
    - Similarly to Utsune's other option, maybe they knew Eren was going to become a shifter, but they needed to investigate something else about his transformation.
    - Something else entirely

    And yes, I agree possibilities explode in a lot of different way once you trow space-time into the equation. For instance, assuming time-travel is a thing in SnK, it's not even a given that People is going back in time... in fact it might very well be the other way around, with people leaping forward through time, which might solve the recurring "don't alter the past or our present will be messed up" issue with this kind of stuff.

    I've been thinking to this (people traveling forward in time) several times already even before the latest chapter.

    Again, assuming time travel is an actual thing, I think it would make a lot more sense for people to be traveling forward in time rather than backwards.
    - Title of first chapter "To you, in 2000 years"
    - The fact the Wall was built in advance of the Titan crisis seems to suggest some civilization/group from the past hold both an higher level of tech AND Titan-shifting capabilities
    - Reiner looks very serious when stating "the world doesn't have a future", but still he wants to return to his place that much strongly. If Hometown = Past, that would make much more sense (at least assuming the possible demise of humanity is sooner rather than later)
    - Ape Titan not knowing about humans' current level of technology (3DMG). Assuming the Ape is traveling through time himself, you would expect it to know that kind of stuff if it was from the future and had any meaningful knowledge of what happened in the past.

    Alternatively, one might hypthesize that things are altered enough within each following loop that important events in the continuity are not always the same. To point out a simple instance of how much this might be import, just consider the case (again just assuming stuff here) in which shifting powers are given by the serum and Grisha injects Eren or someone else entirely.

    Lastly, if any of you watched the movie Groundhog Day, you know time-loops can also work in very strange ways. Another interesting case of specific time traveling/continuity models being exposed in movies is the one in Twelve Monkeys. Notice in both movies the protagonist is trying to alter the events in some significant way, although in the latter that has to do with undoing humanity's near-extinction and a time-paradox is a crucial aspect of the story (I won't spoil it ), while in the former it's in order to stop the loop from repeating itself entirely.

    Lots of possibilities, my head is hurting already :P
    Last edited by Bandreus; July 09, 2013 at 04:08 AM.

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  10. #37
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kannazuki's Avatar
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    Re: Time Leap

    Thanks for rounding up those scattered additional pieces of the theory above, guys. There are some more things we should add here too (like Beatrice's bit about Ragnarok being a "future" battle of the gods against the titans).

    *edit*

    @Bandreus: Loved 12 Monkeys (and thanks to film school I have also seen its inspiration, La Jetée. I've also seen the film Groundhog Day was ripping off, but not all of Groundhog Day itself... Hopefully the antagonist of this story doesn't have the same kind of power as the ones in 12 Monkeys though, heh.

    I want to say something general about discussing this theory though...

    If people really truly don't think there's enough evidence (or preferably if they actually see evidence for another explanation to the points rounded up above), then great and more power to you, I mean it. I hope everyone will share their alternative theories! Meanwhile wouldn't it also be nice if we could keep discussion focused on a combination of fact and logical inference (i.e. our actual hypotheses and theories) and not our preconceptions/how we *feel* about alternate timeline narratives or how they tend to be written? Any trope (time travel; virus outbreaks) can be done badly, sure, but they can also all be done well, provided the author puts in the effort to do it right. How about (if you're going to participate in the discussion), rather than deciding if we believe there might be something to this theory based on whether we *like* it or not, we please for the purposes of *enjoying ourselves on these boards* give Isayama's writing ability (when it comes to time alteration narratives) a chance? Later on, if there are time loops and it turns out it was done badly, you can say you at least did give him a chance (which is done not just by reading it but by being reasonably open to it), and not just an empty "I told you so."

    That said, I would argue that IF it does turn out this story messes with time, Isayama's on track to have done it *well.* He's already set up some very good indicators that this sort of narrative could be *possible* (i.e. the same stuff people are objecting to based on their feelings alone), so it won't be sprung randomly out of nowhere, later on. Seems so far that any potential time aspect is well-incorporated enough not to be retconned in later, or a thread like this one wouldn't even exist at all. Neither is it shaping up to be too much of a shallow/convenient device to properly tie into the core of what the story is about. So far, what I see is highly systematic (i.e. potential indicators appear in many aspects of the story-- dreams, foreground/background objects, people's casually spoken words, possibly even Norse symbology, etc., etc.) and potentially theme-consistent implementation of what may be signs of time loops/leaps occurring.

    Those are all ingredients for good writing, people. So let's give Isayama-sensei a chance.

    (I feel like I have to say something, as between here and another forum I visit, people are harder on this theory than any other. Meanwhile, people on this board are talking about a zombie movie-like "titan serum" or "titan virus" as if it's proven fact, when that could just as easily turn out to be false as leaps/loops could.)
    Last edited by kannazuki; July 09, 2013 at 04:50 PM.

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  12. #38
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: Time Leap

    @kannazuki
    To be fair, pretty much a lot of stuff in this thread has no hard evidence. The most is implications from maybe a few scenes or choice of words they use, or how it is presented in general... So unfortunately any further discussion upon this issue are likely to sound like fanfic from all the ambiguous hints that we have. You're right about giving Isayama a chance, and by all means I do and trust him on his writing, but I guess I haven't made this clear about myself. Whenever you see me going "Oh I think it will get messy" or "This will be difficult to work out," please assume there's one more invisible sentence to follow saying "If Isayama did go for that route, I'll be amazed." :P In fact, I'm a strong supporter of "Let the author portray his world in peace," and I don't really like it when people say the mangaka should've done this or done that. It's his world after all, and I'm reading SnK exactly because I want to see Isayama's type of "despair" he talks about, not my own ideas. (Pretty much goes for any manga that I read.)

    Thing is, we can't even call the strength of theories "validity" but rather "likelihood." Ideas are put forward, and we base the likelihood of each by fitting the pieces together, hacking them down and disprove them one by one. That's pretty much the most anyone could do for whatever theory they have right now.

    Also, instead of saying "I told you so," my motivation for putting forward random points (and ultimately this thread) is that, hopefully somebody will find it interesting and hence develop the ideas (so I can have an interesting read and go mind-blown myself lol.) Again, going back to my previous point about everything being evidence-less, and exactly as Bandreus puts it, pretty much anything goes at this point, so naturally there are bound to be swarms of ideas.

    Hope this clears things up

  13. #39
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kannazuki's Avatar
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    Re: Time Leap

    Quote Originally Posted by Utsune View Post
    Thing is, we can't even call the strength of theories "validity" but rather "likelihood." Ideas are put forward, and we base the likelihood of each by fitting the pieces together, hacking them down and disprove them one by one. That's pretty much the most anyone could do for whatever theory they have right now.
    I think you're misunderstanding me here because, of course, I agree with you 100%. Please keep in mind I've never claimed there is any hard evidence for this theory. What I actually said was that I am totally fine with people saying they don't like/want to discuss the theory because they don't see enough support for it. The problem was that I don't get the impression people are actually saying that (not just here on this forum but on others too). I see people going into their fears about it not being something Isayama can write, as if "the writer can't write it well" = "the writer isn't writing it." Big logical fallacy there.

    People are all over this forum talking about "titan serum" or "titan virus" zombie movie-like theories as if they're fact when there's no *hard* evidence for that either, yet no one is doing that with this theory. We always couch what we say in the conditional language of "if," "it's possible," "it could be," and so on. Seems to me everyone already understands we're talking opinions and inferences here, not facts and realities.

    Quote Quote:
    Also, instead of saying "I told you so," my motivation for putting forward random points (and ultimately this thread) is that, hopefully somebody will find it interesting and hence develop the ideas (so I can have an interesting read and go mind-blown myself lol.) Again, going back to my previous point about everything being evidence-less, and exactly as Bandreus puts it, pretty much anything goes at this point, so naturally there are bound to be swarms of ideas.
    I wasn't talking about you there, silly!

    The "I told you so" part of my post is directed at folks who don't really know what they're talking about (in this case, the writer's ability to pull such a narrative off), yet essentially claim that if he dares to work with a time leap/loop trope, it will automatically suck. Again, I don't recall anyone in this thread taking this theory for granted as definitely true. This isn't a bandwagon we're riding because we think it's a "sure thing" and we can rub it in someone's face later (which would be an "I told you so" kind of set-up). We're just putting stuff together that seems to make sense for now and maybe resonates with other stuff we've discussed (or that's "mind blowing" like you said, lol), and we'll update it as better information comes in, or discard it when the theory is proven false for once and for all.

    Quote Quote:
    Hope this clears things up
    Uh, I wasn't unclear on any of that, though... ^_^
    Last edited by kannazuki; July 09, 2013 at 10:48 PM.

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    Re: Time Leap

    "To you, in 2000 years."

    My brother makes a very good point that this can also be to us, since we live roughly around the year 2000. And that the entire message of the manga is to show that if humans keep fighting amongst each other, they will wipe themselves out. Even if there's a bigger threat.

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  16. #41
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    Re: Time Leap

    Quote Originally Posted by I Am Jager View Post
    "To you, in 2000 years."

    My brother makes a very good point that this can also be to us, since we live roughly around the year 2000. And that the entire message of the manga is to show that if humans keep fighting amongst each other, they will wipe themselves out. Even if there's a bigger threat.

    The moral is good but I don't think it would be that. Even in SNK humans are still fighting amongst each other. It could just be the story of one of the survivors(who?) about the triumph of humans and the sacrifice of a certain person...
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic172142_25.gif

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    Re: Time Leap

    I hear previously of some time loop theory but back then I didn't check as I didn't saw how that would fit in the whole Shingeki no Kyojin universe.

    But now with all that information you presented I'm pretty much convince that something like that is at play. Perhaps not exactly as described in the theory but I agree, there is too much correlation here. I don't think it would have to do with a time machine thought, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would fit into SnK universe.

    There's another theory that I also find appealing though. Maybe the thing described by the title «to you in 2000 years» is Eren himself. Provided that he would have obtained the titan power before the destruction of his home, it's possible he wouldn't have aged at all during 2000 years. It is possible that the injection is father gives to him wasn't the cause of is transformation but had some other purpose.

    Also, I always thought that the forests of giants tree have to be related to the titans in some way.

    On another note,

    Does anyone know if R&B knew of Annie's defeat and capture? I don't remember them being there during the capture operation. Isn't that why Armin is able to fool Bertholtd in the latest chapter ? But maybe I'm wrong.
    Last edited by mirrorstorm; September 13, 2013 at 11:57 PM.

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  19. #43
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    Re: Time Leap

    I didn't read all the posts (only the OP), however for some reason I think (and hope, I don't really like time-travel fiction) this is the one.

    Quote Quote:
    Time Skip (Atlantis-like civ from past):

    Titan from 2000 years ago (from Graydient's post):
    To be developed.
    Grisha: "...As for the way to use [the power], their memories should teach you..."
    Grisha's quote made me think of the famous "Assassin's Creed" game franchise. "Why?" some of you may ask, and I will explain, but for the sake of those who may be currently playing one of the games, or are planning to start and play them in the near future, I will try to be vague when it comes to the details of the games. So, in "Assassin's Creed" the protagonist repeatedly enters a machine named the Animus, so he can "travel back in time" (not really) and relieve the life of his ancestors through genetic memory. Genetic memory is a kind of memory that it is locked deep within our subconscious and it contains the memories of our ancestors instead of ours (this is not 100% true IRL, but the game creators have come close enough). The Animus, however has a side effect, which is caused by prolonged usage of the machine.

    This side effect makes the user go crazy, have visions of the memories of his ancestor even outside the Animus, forget who he is and in which era he is living, and ultimately act like his ancestor for a brief period of time (usually a few minutes). During these lapses the Animus-user gains even the skills of his ancestors, and through careful usage of the Animus one can gain the skills of his ancestors without having to forget who he is.

    I previously said that this was not possible to relieve the memories of your ancestors, however for the sole reason that they did not have the technology to send their memories to us through the DNA. It has been discovered that we can use parts of our DNA as a biological Flash Drive for pretty much everything and anyone in the future can use it(however it costs tons of money and it is thus not worth it). The serum Grisha gave Eren could have held genes filled with memories on Titans from an advanced lost civilization. This civilization may have created Titan-shifters, however things spiraled out of control and we have a Titan apocalypse.

    I know it's sort of pathetic to make a theory based on another franchise and real-life facts that were proven true after the manga had started, but I truly can't think of anything else.
    Last edited by TheOwl; September 14, 2013 at 10:50 AM.

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  21. #44
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: Time Leap

    Nice! I'll dump everything onto the first post. As long as theories aren't contradicting the current revealed story line, they are just as plausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirrorstorm View Post
    Spoiler show


    On another note,

    Does anyone know if R&B knew of Annie's defeat and capture? I don't remember them being there during the capture operation. Isn't that why Armin is able to fool Bertholtd in the latest chapter ? But maybe I'm wrong.
    I've always thought the serum has to do with something else other than allowing his transformation. Although Ymir's recent statement about her "stealing the power from RBA group" suggests it could in a physical, steal-able form e.g. a serum, I think Isayama is actually misleading us with that flashback (not that I have any basis.) But it's only natural to think the serum is related, and even Eren himself thinks so.

    Concerning Annie's capture, take a look at this post here, and go to the second part of the post. It seems that when the Titans are sighted during the Breach arc, this is also when they are confronting Annie. Under this chronology, RB would have no way of knowing about Annie's capture. This is also evident as Hanji explains to the team, "Do not mention anything about Annie in front of RB."



    Quote Originally Posted by TheOwl View Post
    Spoiler show

    Damn! AC eh, why didn't I think of that sooner? That would be emphasising the memory subplot very nicely indeed. There's one thing, Grisha says to Eren about "Their memory will help you" after talking about the basement, and naturally we would think the "memories" are hidden in the basement rather than the do with the serum. However, we also see Eren able to transform into a Titan by knowing the need to injure himself.

    There's a very strange scene with Eren sort of 'hallucinating' during his transformation tasked with carrying the big rock. I'm not sure if that simply means his mind is in a messed up state, or that there is a deeper meaning behind it. I doubt it's the latter, but it is also important to note that is the first time Eren in his full transformation is able to communicate with the outside world (Armin.)

    ---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------

    EDIT: I've also added information about the boulder on the first post, which is valid as pseudo-evidence for any time-related theories.

    Or if it's too bothersome for the lazy lot of you, the extra bit is here:

    Spoiler show
    Last edited by Utsune; September 14, 2013 at 05:43 AM.

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    Re: Time Leap

    Am I the only one who thinks Reiner and Berthold are not the real enemy, and that their faction is fighting a much bigger enemy of their own and their mission has to do with finding something that will help them fight/stop that enemy?

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