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Thread: First Captains of Gotei 13

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner CaptainMikee's Avatar
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    First Captains of Gotei 13

    As the title suggests, we do know that the first captains of Gotei 13, that includes Genryusai Shigekuni Yamamoto (1st Division) and Yachiru Unohana (11th Division), is the strongest generation of all time.

    Now, I know you have speculations to who are the other 11 members of the Gotei 13. I presumed that the Royal Guards and the founder of each Five Noble Houses are all members of the FG13. To sum up:

    1. Genryusai Shigekuni Yamamoto
    2. probably a Shihoin, since it's a Noble House
    3.
    4. probably Tenjiro Kirinji
    5.
    6. probably a Kuchiki, since it's a Noble House
    7. probably Sajin Komamura's grandfather-dog since I think he's old enough to be a member
    8.
    9.
    10. probably a Shiba
    11. Yachiru Unohana
    12. Kirio Hikifune / Senjumaru Shutara
    13.

    Now, fill those up. I know you have alot in mind.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    Kyorakus are also a noble family, so possibly one of them, though not definitely. Families might have been raised to noble status at any point in SS's history, as recognition for some great deeds which could have been performed well after the G13 was formed. Anyway, Nimaiya's likely one of the originals. As the creator of Zanpakuto he's old as hell, maybe older than Yama (complete speculation). Zaraki fought Unohana with a stolen Asauchi-turned-Zanpakuto, so that was after Nimaiya invented them, and that was 10 generations of Kenpachi ago.

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    Yeah, I agree - unless the old shinigami didn't fight with Zanpakutou as we know them (which is an interesting idea, one that I would like to be true - as it would lead to a potentially new way to fight the Quincy)...
    Also, why did Yama age so damn badly - Juha Bach and Nimaiya (and perhaps Boze) all appear quite young - and going by the Kyouraku flashback, it is not like Yama always looked 400 years old...
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    @NoOneInParticular, I remember Kubo stating in an interview that Kyoraku's robe that he usually wears over his captain's haori had a history to it that would be explained later in the series. Most likely, Kyoraku's back story will be coming up soon, since now, he's the new General Commander. This could also be why, Central 46 chose him as a replacement for Yamamoto.

    @zimbardo, this is very, very interesting and could explain why, Hitsugaya has made up his mind to go back to the basics. This really tells us something about the shinigami's history, that during Yamamoto's early beginnings, there was no need of "shikai" or "bankai", it was all basic skill level that made the "divisions" strong and feared at the same time. Even someone like Juha Bach, acknowledged this.

    The bald dude of the Zero Division, I'm guessing he could be part of the original divisions, but i doubt it. I'd say, the only ones are the captain who healed Ichigo and Renji and lady with multiple arms (sorry, i forgot their names) who, I'm assuming, use to be in charge of the 12th division like Hikifune.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Kyorakus are also a noble family, so possibly one of them, though not definitely. Families might have been raised to noble status at any point in SS's history, as recognition for some great deeds which could have been performed well after the G13 was formed. Anyway, Nimaiya's likely one of the originals. As the creator of Zanpakuto he's old as hell, maybe older than Yama (complete speculation). Zaraki fought Unohana with a stolen Asauchi-turned-Zanpakuto, so that was after Nimaiya invented them, and that was 10 generations of Kenpachi ago.
    Kyoraku isn't one of the 5 noble families though. It's more like a minor noble family if you know what I mean. Ukitake is as well.

    So far we only know that Kuchiki and Shiouin are noble families but the novel said Hikifune was a noble family as well.

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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    http://mangafox.me/manga/bleach/v36/c315.1/14.html

    Am i misunderstanding Shunsui here or is he saying that he and Ukitake were part of the Original Gotei 13? The timeline doesn't make much sense, but what could he mean by original in that case?

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    http://mangafox.me/manga/bleach/v36/c315.1/14.html

    Am i misunderstanding Shunsui here or is he saying that he and Ukitake were part of the Original Gotei 13? The timeline doesn't make much sense, but what could he mean by original in that case?
    Yeah, that confused me a little bit. However, what I believe he means is that those 4 (Yama, Unohana, Shunsui, Ukitake) were part of the original Gotei 13 (those who teach in Yamamoto's academy). Not Yamamoto's first set of 13 (who were "no better than criminals" - and maybe were not around/not willing to help when Yamamoto set up his academy).

    However, in that case, who was around to teach Ukitake/Shunsui? Just Yamamoto and Unohana? Yamamoto did say that those 2 were the first to graduate as captains - but does that mean that the entirety of the Gotei 13's organization changed dramatically following them being promoted?
    Last edited by zimbardo; May 28, 2013 at 04:48 AM.
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Yeah, that confused me a little bit. However, what I believe he means is that those 4 (Yama, Unohana, Shunsui, Ukitake) were part of the original Gotei 13 (those who teach in Yamamoto's academy). Not Yamamoto's first set of 13 (who were "no better than criminals" - and maybe were not around/not willing to help when Yamamoto set up his academy).

    However, in that case, who was around to teach Ukitake/Shunsui? Just Yamamoto and Unohana? Yamamoto did say that those 2 were the first to graduate as captains - but does that mean that the entirety of the Gotei 13's organization changed dramatically following them being promoted?
    That just means that at that time those four were the only ones from the current captains who were the also captains 100 years prior. In that page, Shunsui is talking about how long each person has been Captain and he's talking about how there have been a lot of changes. 100 years isn't much for a shinigami so Shunsui is jsut saying that the Gotei 13 has changed really quickly in the past 100 years if 9 captains have been replaced in the past 100 years.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SoulAuron's Avatar
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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    That just means that at that time those four were the only ones from the current captains who were the also captains 100 years prior. In that page, Shunsui is talking about how long each person has been Captain and he's talking about how there have been a lot of changes. 100 years isn't much for a shinigami so Shunsui is jsut saying that the Gotei 13 has changed really quickly in the past 100 years if 9 captains have been replaced in the past 100 years.
    that is true i think, but the use of the wording "original guard" implies that there is something more then that.
    i also dont think shunshui and ukitake where part of the original gottei 13, when juhabach talked about the original divisions he said that they where "just a bunch of blood thirsty men you gathered" this implies that they did not graduate from the shinigamy school, yamamoto simply gathered those he thought where up to the task, also if the formation of the thirteen divisions came right after the creation of zanpakuto (i think it did, but i dont know), then i have a feeling that the royal guard who where already shinigamy back then where not royal guard yet, but something akin to yamamoto, who already worked for soul society but did not have the role they have now, anyway here is a possible timeline inmy opinion:
    - soul society existed, there where already people in it who fought for it, but they had no speccial powers and fought with techs and weapons.
    - some of those people are very talented and lead the others in battle or something, while others are very inteligent and research stuff, one of them creates zanpakuto.
    - the zan are given to some trusted people and one of them (yamamoto) convinces the council to create a military for soul society with these zan, he then proceeds to gather the strong people (killers) in SS to make into the gotei 13.
    - yuhabach and others with him (probably the first quincy he created) attack SS, it is unknown if they had conflicts before that or their reasons for attacking.
    - the attackers loose and die, but juhabach manages to survive somehow.
    - the shinigamy academy is founded to train shinigamy for the future, ukitake and shunshui become students.
    - something happens to the original captains (the bloodthirsty ones) so that most of them are replaced by others who come from the shinigamy academy (this could possibly be related to how unohana came to be the way she is now, she seemed extreemly reluctant to show her "true self").
    - many shinigamy are trained, and the best become captains, these captains remain mostly unchanged in the following years, as they also continue to improve over the years and thus the others never surpass them, but rarely something happens that prompts change.
    - 200 years ago (100 years prior to the flashback) the quincy extermination occurs, the captains at that time are still roughly unchanged, but that starts to, well, change.
    - 100 years ago most captains have already changed, leaving only the four we where told about by shunshui.

    well in this case, the "original guard" would not refer to the first captains really, but to the first who became legitimate captains, wether they graduated on shinigamy academy or where "normatized" like unohana, i bet that the healer royal guard was the one who had the job of normatizing unohana considering the way she acts arround him.

    it should be noted that the role of the royal guard is not taken into account here mostly because we know so little about them, but i know that they are an organization that has also been developing considering that people have been promoted to it like kiryno, but i think that some of its members, like nimaya, where important people since before the 13 divisions existed.
    heres what i think is the explanation to BB having multiple DF:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3373390

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    ^You're looking too much into a translation. Kyoraku meant the Gotei 13 when he said "original guard" according to the RAW.

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    ^You're looking too much into a translation. Kyoraku meant the Gotei 13 when he said "original guard" according to the RAW.
    I actually like his ideas - I wonder how long the academy has been around for now (as in how recently he founded it).
    Shunsui and Ukitake must have been captains for quite a long time!
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    ^Yama found the academy 2100 years ago. However it was not always used to generate Shinigami IIRC according to the databook. I think it started as a martial arts school.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    The first thing to consider here is that while the gotei 13 is just about 1000 years old SS and its military organizations are not. SS and yamamoto are well over that age. The earliest point in time we have seen is the flashback when sasakibe was young and just got bankai 2000 years ago. So that means that there was an academy and military organization around a full 1000 years before the gotei 13 first appeared. The question would be what exactly the organization was like back then. While it probably didn't have captains per say it probably did have a number of captain level shinigami among its ranks.

    Now, reading what I just wrote the idea does sound weird to a great extent. Ultimately any military organization in bleach relies heavily in its dozen or so of strong warriors. The rest are fodder waiting to be murdered so to speak. So what exactly was the change that yamamoto brought fourth by restructuring the previous military organization into the gotei 13? Did the previous gotei 13 not have a number of captain level shinigami among its members? Even without captains per say having those captain level shinigami is enough so to speak. Perhaps yamamoto was the sole captain at the time?

    Or perhaps what yamamoto changed was the places from where shinigami could come, in particular captains? Perhaps back then only nobles could hold positions in the squads. Perhaps the change was twofold, shinigami could come from any soul and he gathered criminals from SS to take captain level positions. Even today nobles hold a decent number of positions among the captains however if similar proportions were around in the past then perhaps SS limited the number of captain level shinigami by half or so so to speak. Today we know for a fact that soifon, byakuya, kyoraku and ukitake are nobles. A couple other are ambigious and the rest seem to be from rugonkai. It makes sense nobles hold that many positions considering that every noble we know is at least at the level of a seated officer if not VC class however if SS did limit high level positions to nobles they did indeed limited their potential military capacity by half.

    So yamamoto basically would have doubled SS military capacity with a simple idea. He allowed anyone with the proper amount of power to move up the ranks and gathered a bunch of misfit captain level criminals and gave them a function at which they could be useful. Hence unohana and the lot of seemingly bloodthirsty original gotei 13.

    As for the royals, we have to consider they could easily predate the gotei 13. If anything we have evidence that a couple in fact do predate the gotei 13. Nimaiya invented the freaking zampakuto, he should be thousands of years old. Kinjiri trained unohana, one of the first captains. Clearly and easily older than the 13 squads. The rest are more ambiguous though.

    Now, it is entirely possible noble clans did make up a part of the original gotei 13. Nobles would probably have been members of whatever came before the gotei 13 if anything. Perhaps it makes sense that the second and sixth divisions would have been originally held by their respective nobles. The shiba could have been related to the 10th squad.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SoulAuron's Avatar
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    Re: First Captains of Gotei 13

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    ^You're looking too much into a translation. Kyoraku meant the Gotei 13 when he said "original guard" according to the RAW.
    they are just hipothesis, of course i am looking too much into it.
    but that is what i think is logical regardless of what kyoraku said in this case, i developed this thought by combining every other knowledge i gathered from the manga up to now and coming up with a satisfactory (to me) explanation for them.

    ---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The first thing to consider here is that while the gotei 13 is just about 1000 years old SS and its military organizations are not. SS and yamamoto are well over that age. The earliest point in time we have seen is the flashback when sasakibe was young and just got bankai 2000 years ago. So that means that there was an academy and military organization around a full 1000 years before the gotei 13 first appeared. The question would be what exactly the organization was like back then. While it probably didn't have captains per say it probably did have a number of captain level shinigami among its ranks.

    Now, reading what I just wrote the idea does sound weird to a great extent. Ultimately any military organization in bleach relies heavily in its dozen or so of strong warriors. The rest are fodder waiting to be murdered so to speak. So what exactly was the change that yamamoto brought fourth by restructuring the previous military organization into the gotei 13? Did the previous gotei 13 not have a number of captain level shinigami among its members? Even without captains per say having those captain level shinigami is enough so to speak. Perhaps yamamoto was the sole captain at the time?

    Or perhaps what yamamoto changed was the places from where shinigami could come, in particular captains? Perhaps back then only nobles could hold positions in the squads. Perhaps the change was twofold, shinigami could come from any soul and he gathered criminals from SS to take captain level positions. Even today nobles hold a decent number of positions among the captains however if similar proportions were around in the past then perhaps SS limited the number of captain level shinigami by half or so so to speak. Today we know for a fact that soifon, byakuya, kyoraku and ukitake are nobles. A couple other are ambigious and the rest seem to be from rugonkai. It makes sense nobles hold that many positions considering that every noble we know is at least at the level of a seated officer if not VC class however if SS did limit high level positions to nobles they did indeed limited their potential military capacity by half.

    So yamamoto basically would have doubled SS military capacity with a simple idea. He allowed anyone with the proper amount of power to move up the ranks and gathered a bunch of misfit captain level criminals and gave them a function at which they could be useful. Hence unohana and the lot of seemingly bloodthirsty original gotei 13.

    As for the royals, we have to consider they could easily predate the gotei 13. If anything we have evidence that a couple in fact do predate the gotei 13. Nimaiya invented the freaking zampakuto, he should be thousands of years old. Kinjiri trained unohana, one of the first captains. Clearly and easily older than the 13 squads. The rest are more ambiguous though.

    Now, it is entirely possible noble clans did make up a part of the original gotei 13. Nobles would probably have been members of whatever came before the gotei 13 if anything. Perhaps it makes sense that the second and sixth divisions would have been originally held by their respective nobles. The shiba could have been related to the 10th squad.
    mmm, true i forgot to take into account that the age of th shinigamy accademy was far grather then that of the gottei 13, in that case it changes my idea some, but i dont think it changes it too much, however i agree with the stuff you posted.
    heres what i think is the explanation to BB having multiple DF:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3373390

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