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View Poll Results: Which team wins?

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24. You may not vote on this poll
  • Team 5 (Byakuya Kuchiki, Hachigen Ushōda, Rangiku Matsumoto)

    18 75.00%
  • Team 6 (Yammy Llargo, Aaroniero Arruruerie, Dordoni Alessandro Del Socaccio)

    6 25.00%
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Thread: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

  1. #16
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    "Could argue that it may be difficult"? It would definitely be, how that is even a question is silly. You sound like landing a surprise attack is at all similar to landing a direct one.
    I am sorry, but that was not my intended tone. I was saying that, because his kido are cast so quickly and because it is a team fight, it will be harder to charge him directly. I believe that he could probably do those bakudo on people charging him directly - but that depends on who is charging (Yammy or AA have not shown any speed feats so to speak) and is also much harder to 'prove' (he has not been in that situation in the manga - and therefore has not had the chance to show he can - directly).

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    Plus Kensei was mindless, a shunpo is infinitely more effective than a charge.
    But even still, that charge was very, very quick. Kensei was not a static target (as Barragan was).

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    As for facing an enemy alone, If rangiku can't handle either AA or DADS, and Bya can't soundly beat Yammy, then someone will be paying attention to Hachi, and his team mates will be distracted, and beaten in time, so he will have the DIRECT attention of someone.
    And this is where Rangiku's ultimate role in this fight lies (I will explain below).

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    All your links had a telegraph; columns had to fall, rasing hand in grasping gesture, performing a hand seal.
    Well, all kido have a hand seal. The Poles appear to have fallen before her kick had finished - very, very, quickly. But even still, both the chains and Bakudo 99 kin formed around the target (well, kin formed on top) with little (if any) time to escape.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    I have no doubt a super strong bakudo could hold a massive target, but I don;t think the generally quicker mid or low level ones could. So CAN Hachi in favorable conditions bind all three opponents, of course. But those conditions all point to him being far away, and/or untargetted.
    The mid or low level ones are there to allow either:
    Hacchi to cast a stronger kido on top.
    or
    Someone (Byakuya) to finish off the trapped person
    or
    The fight to be 2 vs 3 for at least a little bit (every little helps).

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    Yammy is of course a huge threat, but I think Byakuya could waste a lot of his time using his bankai, though I do think Yammy would ultimately win.
    Yes, Yammy is the crux I feel. But there is one important thing to remember:
    If Yammy is not angry, then he is not really a treat (he gets considerably stronger when angry).
    This helps me with my awesome tactic.

    Rangiku is probably the weakest here - I doubt she could scratch Yammy or AA. I do believe that she could hold against Dordoni for a little bit (but I think she may lose - which is a shame as I like Rangiku).
    So if I was to suggest a technique, I suggest that (bolded part from above here) she face Yammy. All she needs to do is dodge and harrass. He will catch her and kill her - but as long as Yammy is not getting hurt too badly, he will not get angry.
    Byakuya can deal with AA and Hacchi can quickly seal Dordoni. Or Byakuya can quickly take out Dordoni (I doubt this will take long at all) and Hacchi can try to lock down AA.
    Now AA is strong and has a lot of techniques - but once released he is quite sedentary - he is also a big target.
    If they can take these 2 out - Yammy will be much easier to beat.
    Infinite RAGE!

  2. #17
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Tessai could immobolize Yammy. He and Byakuya would recognize Yammy was the strongest there if it came to that. Yammy is huge, an easy target for Tessai who Im sure is proficient enough in kido to multi task and protect his team from attacks and attack. Its not as if Matsumoto can't use kido either. Shes pretty durable as well. She got up without being completely healed from Ayon's attack to chase Gin.

  3. #18
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member xXAshisogiJizoXx's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    @Zimbardo
    Ah, I understand your point now. But its not just Hachi who hasn;t shown that situation, but I can't recall anyone who used a bakudo in a melee confrontation without distance or having it follow a counter attack, something Hachi seems to lack. I'd say AA has speed feats as he popped up behind Rukia several times, surprising her, and soundly avoided all of her attacks for at least a short while (admittedly offscreen).

    Hmm, that plan does sound very feasible, but I can see the nature of rangiku's shikai making Yammy very frustrated lol, but perhaps not enough.
    And I myself didn't mean to make the bakudo to sound slow, because they aren't, but not being slow and fast enough to do under assault is not the same.

    Your battle plan is very sound, and I can see it playing out well.
    My plan was that because Byakuya is clearly the captain, the strongest espada would fight him, while the privaron espada would get the LT. Plus, being in character, can't help but see DADS wan't to cozy over with the pretty girl :P If we are assuming Yammy is "well fed and rested" I don't see why he would pass up on the one captain rank their, nor do I think the idea of fighting Hachi, a visually unthreatening character would interest Yammy, yet may well interest AA. What's more is of the arrancar, AA has knowledge on shinigami ways, and thus should know the threat of high level kido. Cause way I see it, AA and DADS have the tools necessary to give Hachi a hard time by relentlessly attacking with decent speed, they just need to know that's what they have to do, and not give him space. The nature of how Nejibana attacks are rapid and consecutive, as are the many bird projections and kicks of Dordoni. Speed is widely considered the bane of Kido users, particularly when the user himself, Hachi, is not very fast, and is seen sweating a lot (something I randomly noticed, maybe that's mean of me to point out).

    I know it's tricky trying to use character personalities to decide who would match up with who, but I also feel there is a certain logic to them choosing those opponents, even by Team 6 since no one knows anyones specific powers or strength. Another factor is that always, in Shonen in general, whenever there are two equally sized teams facing off, they almost always split up into several different 1 on 1 matches.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

  4. #19
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    @Zimbardo
    Ah, I understand your point now. But its not just Hachi who hasn;t shown that situation, but I can't recall anyone who used a bakudo in a melee confrontation without distance or having it follow a counter attack, something Hachi seems to lack.
    Very few people appear to be able to use Kidou effectively - even fewer chantless (with any power to their spells at all). Now as for the not needing to follow it up, it depends on why you are using the Bakudo. Hacchigen didn't have to follow up after using the two on Kensei or Mashiro, Urahara's custom bakudo didn't need a follow up either when used on Aizen (after the hougyoku had given up on him). So, we know that very powerful characters can be held indefinitely - or at least long enough for them to be dealt with - purely with Bakudo.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    I'd say AA has speed feats as he popped up behind Rukia several times, surprising her, and soundly avoided all of her attacks for at least a short while (admittedly offscreen).
    The nature of how Nejibana attacks are rapid and consecutive, as are the many bird projections and kicks of Dordoni.
    I had, in all fairness, forgotten this. However, in that form he is limited to his shinigami abilities (as a VC - suggested to be strong, not shown enough for my liking). I do not think that Hacchigen, and certainly Byakuya, would have a problem with him at this power. I think he would have to unleash all his powers to be a real threat to them - and once done, his speed appeared to be considerably less.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    Speed is widely considered the bane of Kido users,
    This is something that I disagree with. It is certainly not something that has been said, or even suggested, in the manga. I will address this more below.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    particularly when the user himself, Hachi, is not very fast, and is seen sweating a lot (something I randomly noticed, maybe that's mean of me to point out).
    This is certainly not a bad point. But rather than suggesting this is due to him being fat, or slow, this could potentially be down to the difficulty that it takes to use Kido of such high power. This is certainly a potential problem. Now the main problem with using kido against quick targets is that most people are not experts at kido. In fights it is important to be able to cast kido quickly, to deal with fast opponents. This requires chantless kido - something that is, suggested to be, incredibly difficult. Chantless kido have a problem of lack of power (compared to the original).
    Luckily for team 5 Hacchi is a pro at this. He managed to perform a lvl 99 without a chant. He has shown he can chant afterwards (I am not sure if this is possible or easy for others - but no one has shown it at least). He has also shown incredible barrier chants that can trap enemies in place - he is a master of entrapment kido - though he has shown little Hadou (I am sure he can use, but even without he is a force to be reckoned with in team fights).
    Infinite RAGE!

  5. #20
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member xXAshisogiJizoXx's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Very few people appear to be able to use Kidou effectively - even fewer chantless (with any power to their spells at all). Now as for the not needing to follow it up, it depends on why you are using the Bakudo. Hacchigen didn't have to follow up after using the two on Kensei or Mashiro, Urahara's custom bakudo didn't need a follow up either when used on Aizen (after the hougyoku had given up on him). So, we know that very powerful characters can be held indefinitely - or at least long enough for them to be dealt with - purely with Bakudo.


    I had, in all fairness, forgotten this. However, in that form he is limited to his shinigami abilities (as a VC - suggested to be strong, not shown enough for my liking). I do not think that Hacchigen, and certainly Byakuya, would have a problem with him at this power. I think he would have to unleash all his powers to be a real threat to them - and once done, his speed appeared to be considerably less.


    This is something that I disagree with. It is certainly not something that has been said, or even suggested, in the manga. I will address this more below.


    This is certainly not a bad point. But rather than suggesting this is due to him being fat, or slow, this could potentially be down to the difficulty that it takes to use Kido of such high power. This is certainly a potential problem. Now the main problem with using kido against quick targets is that most people are not experts at kido. In fights it is important to be able to cast kido quickly, to deal with fast opponents. This requires chantless kido - something that is, suggested to be, incredibly difficult. Chantless kido have a problem of lack of power (compared to the original).
    Luckily for team 5 Hacchi is a pro at this. He managed to perform a lvl 99 without a chant. He has shown he can chant afterwards (I am not sure if this is possible or easy for others - but no one has shown it at least). He has also shown incredible barrier chants that can trap enemies in place - he is a master of entrapment kido - though he has shown little Hadou (I am sure he can use, but even without he is a force to be reckoned with in team fights).
    Oh, I didn't mean following up the bakudo, I meant that anytime bakudo is used in a close quarters confrontation, it has to be a follow up to a counter attack that interupts/stunns the opponent. Example being Soi had to kick Vega in the face to make him recoil before she could bind him with a bakudo. Other than that, I can't recall anyone just using one mid melee. If AA is attacking Hachi with Nejibana with rapid combinations which we know its capable of, what can he do aside from block? AA has shown capability to dodge a point blank hado that he wasn't expecting, that was also chantless. Byakuya could def handle AA or DADS, which is why its important for my strategy that Yammy gets to him (unless AA has zanpakto destruction, which he really should). Also another non canon bit of info is that Glotoneria was capable of flying in the Hell chapter one shot, so not totally immobile, but def not what is needed against Hachi, which would be sonido.

    Regarding speed, it was in regards to an idea I had heard before in threads and forums, not in the manga itself. But as I ponted out above, kido is rarely used in high speed situations, it is usually used with space between enemies and during slow parts of fights. Generally, not always though.

    I would agree that his kido is draining when he uses such high levels, but we can safely say that he is slow, as he was well far behind the others when sent to see what had happened to squad 9 in TBTP. Hachi is super beast at what he does, Bakudo, and we can safely assume he is proficient in hado, but we can't expect him to be a powerhouse with it. His zan and hand to hand skills are non existent, its difficult to quantify the power boost his mask gives him, and his speed is seemingly pretty sub par. It's not hard to say that Hachi, being an extreme, has situations where he is extremely powerful, and situations where he would be pretty not great. Cause at end of the day, he has no feats under CQC attack, and very few people do when it comes to kido in close quarters, fewer still for bakudo in close quarters. This all hinges upon Hachi being assaulted up close, but all three of team 5 are not ranged fighters and do most their fighting up close, DADS release being an exception, but he makes up for it by being able to attack from lots of angles simultaneously.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

  6. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Kazu-Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Here's a thought - Rangiku's Shikai is a large cloud of Dust blades that obscures vision. Byakuya's Shikai/Bankai is a large cloud of blades that can be dodged if it can be seen. Together, though, they can create a huge combo attack that has enough power to finish off both AA and Dordoni while their team hides out of sight. If the opponent's can't see them it can give Hachi time to set up a powerful Hado/Kido/Bakudo to do serious damage.

    Of course, this relies on them being able to set it up fast enough that the other team don't get any hits in beforehand - personally, I think they're fast enough to avoid it, but it's still a viable tactic...

    Epic Brofist!

  7. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Slightly joking, slightly serious, what if Byakuya just went Bankai and Hachi transports a portion of the tiny blades inside of the opponents?

  8. #23
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Leonsagara's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Rangiku is definitely one of the stronger vice-captains, and should be able to handle either Dordonii or Aaroniero. You also have to consider that both Rangiku's and Byakuya's zanpakutos are well suited for fights against multiple opponents. With Hachi in support, Team 5 should be able to take out the two weaker opponents quickly and then focus on Yammy.

  9. #24
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member xXAshisogiJizoXx's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Hmmm, "popularity" may be coming into play with these last few posts. Dordoni's rez releases wind funnels to attack, Rangiku's dust/ash is worthless and won't be obscuring much. Not to mention she has very little feats to suggest she can come close to Dordoni's level of power. Hachi never teleported anything INSIDE anyone. Baraggan was a skeleton, he had a lot of empty space under his robes, which is where Hachi teleported his arms.

    I keep throwing out Zan destruction, and no one is biting lol. The only argument against AA having it is he never used it himself, but we know his power, we know metastacia's power, we know the former ate the latter, and on top of that, AA was never threatened by Rukia's zanpakto skills prior to impaling her, so why should he have wasted a power that can only be used once per 24 hours? Not to mention all the devastated Rukia fans that would have assassinated Kubo.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

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  11. #25
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    Tessai could immobolize Yammy. He and Byakuya would recognize Yammy was the strongest there if it came to that. Yammy is huge, an easy target for Tessai who Im sure is proficient enough in kido to multi task and protect his team from attacks and attack. Its not as if Matsumoto can't use kido either. Shes pretty durable as well. She got up without being completely healed from Ayon's attack to chase Gin.
    Haha. I said Tessai but meant Hachi!

    A danku spell by Byakuya or Hachi would stop most any of the opposing team's attacks. Matsu is decent in kido as well. I think they stand the better chance of winning here.
    Last edited by freshseth83; June 14, 2013 at 03:42 AM.

  12. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    Hmmm, "popularity" may be coming into play with these last few posts. Dordoni's rez releases wind funnels to attack, Rangiku's dust/ash is worthless and won't be obscuring much. Not to mention she has very little feats to suggest she can come close to Dordoni's level of power. Hachi never teleported anything INSIDE anyone. Baraggan was a skeleton, he had a lot of empty space under his robes, which is where Hachi teleported his arms.

    I keep throwing out Zan destruction, and no one is biting lol. The only argument against AA having it is he never used it himself, but we know his power, we know metastacia's power, we know the former ate the latter, and on top of that, AA was never threatened by Rukia's zanpakto skills prior to impaling her, so why should he have wasted a power that can only be used once per 24 hours? Not to mention all the devastated Rukia fans that would have assassinated Kubo.
    Don't know what you mean by "popularity". I was just throwing out a possible strategy. I knew the plan had a 50/50 chance of working, that's why I said slightly serious. And while you are correct about Baraggan's physical form, Hachi's transference ability is still there, so I don't think it would matter.

    AA's possible zanpakuto destroying ability could greatly harm team 5, but he would have to aim for Byakuya since it only affects the first shinigami to touch it and he is the biggest threat in this match. If anyone else touches it, it wouldn't be that big of a loss, especially Hachi since he hasn't even shown his zanpkuto abilities.

  13. #27
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member xXAshisogiJizoXx's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    Don't know what you mean by "popularity". I was just throwing out a possible strategy. I knew the plan had a 50/50 chance of working, that's why I said slightly serious. And while you are correct about Baraggan's physical form, Hachi's transference ability is still there, so I don't think it would matter.

    AA's possible zanpakuto destroying ability could greatly harm team 5, but he would have to aim for Byakuya since it only affects the first shinigami to touch it and he is the biggest threat in this match. If anyone else touches it, it wouldn't be that big of a loss, especially Hachi since he hasn't even shown his zanpkuto abilities.
    Well, didn't mean much by it, just that some if the other ideas weren't as fledged out, not yours though. What do you mean it wouldn't matter? Teleporting stuff right next to someone is not the same as anatomically inside them, the latter is NOT what Hachi showed. Otherwise he could have just teleported a pebble into Aizen's brain.

    That's what I was thinking, not that byakuya isn't dangerous without it, but his zan is such a big asset. The reason why I think it would be viable is that Bya's zan can hit such large areas, that touching anyone of the petals shouldn't be too difficult.

    A danku is a stationary wall... It's not hard to move around, it's only really good for blocking ranged attacks which it's all it has been used for.

    Pretty sure Byakuya and co will win this votes, but this has been fun regardless. This match got more posts than the singles one lol.
    Last edited by xXAshisogiJizoXx; June 14, 2013 at 09:45 AM.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

  14. #28
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Buzz Killington's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Team 6 wins

    Matsumoto isn't defeating anyone on Team 6, AA was never overpowered by Rukia even marginally, so whether she's stronger than Rukia or not is irrelevant (There's really not much reason to believe she is anyway). He could take her in Base, and having the experimental hollows ability to destroy a zanpakuto will come in handy in other fights. Or Dordonni could just beat her. Either way, she's really not much of a factor here at all

    Byakuya and Hachigen are the problem. Hachigens kido hax provide some excellent defense and capability to restrain the opposing team from overwhelming them. However I doubt Hachigen could restrain someone as powerful as Released Yammy for any meaningful amount of time. I also doubt Byakuya alone has the offensive power to take down Yammy by himself, given how the fight against him went with Kenpachi as support.

    3 on 2 (Since Matsumoto is fodder here), Hachigen will eventually either be too occupied by the other 2 fighters or Byakuya goes down against Yammy and from there Team 6 takes it. My only concern here is Hachigen, he's the X Factor.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Yammy is ridiculously physically strong with reiatsu probably as much as Shinigami Aizen, perhaps even above & he has a lot of potential to grow but he is an intellectually dumb fighter who makes silly mistakes.

    Silly mistakes gets you:

    .The Hogyoku Aizen & Gin results
    .The Zaraki & 3 Sternritter results
    .The Zaraki & Tousen results
    .The Zaraki & Girinko results
    .The Soifon (+ Hachigen) & Barragan results
    .The Byakuya & Zommari results
    .The Tousen & Kamomura with Hisagi results
    .The Yukio & Toshiro & co results

    Upon releasing his sword, Yammy grows tremendously in size but this size to a fighter as dumb as him is extremely hazardous http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-11.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-12.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-13.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-14.html

    The angrier he gets the bigger & the more powerful he becomes but as Ichigo demonstrated, he could be taken out prior to these transformations http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-20.html (& Ichigo would have taken his head off if he didn't go through those shenanigans with his hollow & if he release a full power GT).

    Though this battle is a team effort so Yammy could have the chance to cause some serious chaos (this could also affect his teammates in a negative way) & Rangiku is the weakest link based on feats.
    Last edited by Kay3795; June 14, 2013 at 06:51 PM.

  16. #30
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 5 vs Team 6

    Result

    Team 5 (Byakuya Kuchiki, Hachigen Ushōda, Rangiku Matsumoto) : 18
    Team 6 (Yammy Llargo, Aaroniero Arruruerie, Dordoni Alessandro Del Socaccio) : 6

    Team 5 advances to the next round.

    You can discuss the results in Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread.

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