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View Poll Results: Which team wins?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Team 7 (Nelliel Tu Odelschwanck, Yasutora Sado, Cirucci Sanderwicci)

    5 16.67%
  • Team 8 (Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez, Uryū Ishida, Choe Neng Poww)

    25 83.33%
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Thread: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

  1. #16
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Leonsagara's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Ichigo had to use bankai to defeat the Privaron Espada he fought. That alone would suggest that the Privaron Espada are stronger than Vice-captains, even if they don't quite attain to Captain level. Poww is just a fraccion, so he should definitely be weaker than Cirucci or Chad.

  2. #17
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member xXAshisogiJizoXx's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonsagara View Post
    Ichigo had to use bankai to defeat the Privaron Espada he fought. That alone would suggest that the Privaron Espada are stronger than Vice-captains, even if they don't quite attain to Captain level. Poww is just a fraccion, so he should definitely be weaker than Cirucci or Chad.
    In most cases I'd agree with the fraccion statement, but Poww very easily handled Shikai Ikakku while unreleased, while Ikakku is known to be physically strong, has experience with hierro having fought one of the arguably strongest fraccion we have seen feat wise, Edorad, and was the faster one in his fight. Granted, Ikkaku's shikai does kind of suck, he himself is powerful, and couldn't do much. Even Hisagi strongly implied that Yumichika couldn't beat a guy who beat Ikkaku, and he is the one who knows Yumichika's power. Not to mention I think most fraccion's would be destroyed by a Koma Punch to the face.

    Since Poww ate Koma's punch like it was nothing while unreleased, I think he can take anything Chad can throw at him while he is released. Which isn't to say Chad is weak, just Poww is really tough.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

  3. #18
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    In most cases I'd agree with the fraccion statement, but Poww very easily handled Shikai Ikakku while unreleased, while Ikakku is known to be physically strong, has experience with hierro having fought one of the arguably strongest fraccion we have seen feat wise, Edorad, and was the faster one in his fight. Granted, Ikkaku's shikai does kind of suck, he himself is powerful, and couldn't do much. Even Hisagi strongly implied that Yumichika couldn't beat a guy who beat Ikkaku, and he is the one who knows Yumichika's power. Not to mention I think most fraccion's would be destroyed by a Koma Punch to the face.

    Since Poww ate Koma's punch like it was nothing while unreleased, I think he can take anything Chad can throw at him while he is released. Which isn't to say Chad is weak, just Poww is really tough.
    Komamura wasn't actually trying back then, he even let Poww punch him back, and released Bankai just to show off who had the biggest release.

    ---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Firstly, Renji during Chad's training wasn't captain-class.
    What is a captain class? A shinigami that has achieved Bankai, and passed a test, and often has some skill to defend his position. Renji is actually pretty high up there, if anything he's still a decade away from becoming good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    He achieved bankai, but Byakuya showed the gulf in class between the two of them with casual ease.
    Byakuya? One of the strongest captains, a genius, the guy rumored to be the strongest of the noble families? With so much power that can be felt across Seireitei and stun nearly everyone? With Kido so large that it can cause immense destruction, casting up to level 81 spells without incantation? A quickminded, versatile fighter? Overall a noble and born with great talent? With a nearly unmatched devotion to his job? If you're going to go by onscreen feats here, Byakuya is actually above "captain level".

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...16-page-5.html

    Even more so, from a story perspective Byakuya was the goal to reach in terms of power and skill. Ichigo had to go through hell to be able to surpass Byakuya not only in raw power, but also in Shunpo, Hakuda and Zanjutsu, and attitude as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And I also don't get this Byakuya being one of the strongest captains, he was average among the captains.
    If you can't recall what happens in the manga, refrain from presenting claims as facts. Every captains has shown to excel at something and be decent at everything else, except Zaraki but he doesn't care about the Shinigami arts, Byakuya has shown exceptional skill at everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The difference between Renji and a captain-class individual was only reinforced when both he and Ishida attempted to take on Szayelapporo.
    Szayel was a special exception. He had studied Uryuu and Renji before hand and could nullify their attacks. His power was also focused on science gimmicks and not physical prowess.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-728-2/...apter-274.html

    By the way, if Renji's failed Hado #31 could do this much damage, it doesn't speak too well of Szayel's physical strength, who by the way, said was not his forte.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-729-17...apter-275.html

    I think it's time to clarify which captain class is which. Captains like Shunsui are good swordsmen and at waiting for the best chance to strike while lacking in the strength department while others like Hitsugaya create a bunch of shit to throw at their opponent and have moderate skills and others excel at physical strength but have decent overall stats, and the same for speed, or Kido, or hand to hand combat, and whatever. Hachigen for example, could beat most captains in the Kido department during the TBtP arc. Omaeda, as much shit as he gets, would beat most other captains at a covert assignment and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Furthermore, Renji had just recently had his bankai torn to shreds and seriously weakened.
    Hopefully you're not talking about what Mayuri said about Ikkaku getting his Bankai torn to shreds and duct taped back into shape, because that would be taken out of context. And it's kind of a retcon too. Renji's Bankai had less links, but its power shouldn't have changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Secondly, he could hold off Renji's bankai, but he wasn't Renji's equal. That's important to differentiate.
    Chad was pushing Renji to his limit, with his old arm. At first Renji was taking him down without even trying, by the end he could barely keep pushing him down. Now the bigger question: What's stronger? Renji or his Bankai? It's kind of important because most of the time the Bankai does all the work while the user himself doesn't receive any boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Thirdly, Chad improved significantly during his battle against Gantenbainne, but he went beyond an individual that just wouldn't compare to any of the captains.
    How can you be so sure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    That became immediately clear when he faced up against Nnoitra, someone who would be considered captain-class. He was barely a nuisance.
    Nnoitra was the Zaraki of the Espada. Nearly immortal, high cutting power. Besides, I'm still not sure how physics work in Bleach, but Chad sunk his fist in Nnoitra's abdomen and the power of the punch went through it all the way behind, and that would do some internal damage in the real world. Nnoitra was the guy that had to have his chest cut horizontally, burnt, impaled, cut vertically, had 7 of his arms cut off, cut again, smacked and had his chest cut in three all the way across just to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    What Chad has achieved in 2 years remains unknown? His last rapid advancement was under the conditions of HM, how much he has improved is up in the air. The reality is that he hasn't shown feats equal to a captain-class individual.
    What can be considered a captain class feat? Because for Chad:
    Stopping energy blasts barehanded: Check.
    Shooting large energy blasts: Check.
    Large area destruction: Check.
    High speed: Check.
    High physical strength: Check.
    Straight to the point: Check.

    Back to Shunsui, he hasn't done anything impressive in the strength department, but he's sure as hell the best at getting the job done.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  4. #19
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    What is a captain class? A shinigami that has achieved Bankai, and passed a test, and often has some skill to defend his position. Renji is actually pretty high up there, if anything he's still a decade away from becoming good enough.
    So even you accept that Renji isn't captain-class, at least that's the suggestion when you say he's a decade away. So you believe that Chad is superior to Renji? Because if you're arguing that Chad is captain-class and Renji has a bit to go to get there, you're arguing that Chad is stronger than Renji. Just to clarify.

    Quote Quote:
    Byakuya? One of the strongest captains, a genius, the guy rumored to be the strongest of the noble families? With so much power that can be felt across Seireitei and stun nearly everyone? With Kido so large that it can cause immense destruction, casting up to level 81 spells without incantation? A quickminded, versatile fighter? Overall a noble and born with great talent? With a nearly unmatched devotion to his job? If you're going to go by onscreen feats here, Byakuya is actually above "captain level".

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...16-page-5.html

    Even more so, from a story perspective Byakuya was the goal to reach in terms of power and skill. Ichigo had to go through hell to be able to surpass Byakuya not only in raw power, but also in Shunpo, Hakuda and Zanjutsu, and attitude as well.

    If you can't recall what happens in the manga, refrain from presenting claims as facts. Every captains has shown to excel at something and be decent at everything else, except Zaraki but he doesn't care about the Shinigami arts, Byakuya has shown exceptional skill at everything.
    Most of the things you're describing is just what a captain is capable of. If you look at the 13 original captains we were introduced to in the SS arc, at least five of them were clearly superior to Byakuya; Yamamoto, Shunsui, Ukitake, Unohana, and Aizen. If he's at best, considering that some other captains are probably around the same level, ranked 6 out of 13, he's average. That laundry list of feats doesn't change reality. Maybe you should keep a more thorough accounting of events.

    Quote Quote:
    Szayel was a special exception. He had studied Uryuu and Renji before hand and could nullify their attacks. His power was also focused on science gimmicks and not physical prowess.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-728-2/...apter-274.html

    By the way, if Renji's failed Hado #31 could do this much damage, it doesn't speak too well of Szayel's physical strength, who by the way, said was not his forte.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-729-17...apter-275.html

    I think it's time to clarify which captain class is which. Captains like Shunsui are good swordsmen and at waiting for the best chance to strike while lacking in the strength department while others like Hitsugaya create a bunch of shit to throw at their opponent and have moderate skills and others excel at physical strength but have decent overall stats, and the same for speed, or Kido, or hand to hand combat, and whatever. Hachigen for example, could beat most captains in the Kido department during the TBtP arc. Omaeda, as much shit as he gets, would beat most other captains at a covert assignment and so on.
    This sounds like a list of excuses. Obviously individuals have different styles, and because of this matchups play out differently. The reality remains that when Renji has come up against individuals that would be considered captain-class, he has hit a wall.

    Quote Quote:
    Hopefully you're not talking about what Mayuri said about Ikkaku getting his Bankai torn to shreds and duct taped back into shape, because that would be taken out of context. And it's kind of a retcon too. Renji's Bankai had less links, but its power shouldn't have changed.
    The fact remains.

    Quote Quote:
    Chad was pushing Renji to his limit, with his old arm. At first Renji was taking him down without even trying, by the end he could barely keep pushing him down. Now the bigger question: What's stronger? Renji or his Bankai? It's kind of important because most of the time the Bankai does all the work while the user himself doesn't receive any boost.
    I'm not sure if you're actually trying to make a point here.

    Quote Quote:
    How can you be so sure?
    I read the chapters. We saw how he compared to Nnoitra, and the massive difference in power between them.

    Quote Quote:
    Nnoitra was the Zaraki of the Espada. Nearly immortal, high cutting power. Besides, I'm still not sure how physics work in Bleach, but Chad sunk his fist in Nnoitra's abdomen and the power of the punch went through it all the way behind, and that would do some internal damage in the real world. Nnoitra was the guy that had to have his chest cut horizontally, burnt, impaled, cut vertically, had 7 of his arms cut off, cut again, smacked and had his chest cut in three all the way across just to die.
    So Chad was not even close to a match for someone of captain-level. That is basically what you're saying here. Yeah, Nnoitra is difficult to kill. That's what makes him captain-level, and why Chad never stood a chance.

    Quote Quote:
    What can be considered a captain class feat? Because for Chad:
    Stopping energy blasts barehanded: Check.
    Shooting large energy blasts: Check.
    Large area destruction: Check.
    High speed: Check.
    High physical strength: Check.
    Straight to the point: Check.
    This list is pretty pointless, just to point out. He might have these things down, but at the end of the day...he just isn't good enough.

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  6. #20
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So even you accept that Renji isn't captain-class, at least that's the suggestion when you say he's a decade away. So you believe that Chad is superior to Renji? Because if you're arguing that Chad is captain-class and Renji has a bit to go to get there, you're arguing that Chad is stronger than Renji. Just to clarify.
    Chad and Renji have very different fight styles, but as far as strength is concerned, Chad is visibly superior, and has a much faster growth rate. Renji is almost good enough to be considered a captain, but he does need some more training with his Bankai and every other basic skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Most of the things you're describing is just what a captain is capable of.
    Except that's not the case. Soifon and Yoruichi may be better at Hakuda and Shunpo, Hachigen and Tessai may be better at Kido, Zaraki and Yachiru may be better at Zanjutsu, Komamura and Love may be stronger, Shunsui and Ukitake may be the most dynamic and Mayuri and Urahara may be smarter, but Byakuya has everything mastered to a very high degree. Mix it with his natural talent and visible power, and you have one of the most fearsome captains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    If you look at the 13 original captains we were introduced to in the SS arc, at least five of them were clearly superior to Byakuya; Yamamoto, Shunsui, Ukitake, Unohana, and Aizen.
    I know Aizen and Yamamoto are superior, but how are Shunsui, Ukitake and Yachiru "clearly superior"? Yachiru has only shown to be an exceptional healer and swordsman, nothing more, although her skill with Kaido and reiatsu control must make her a very good Kido user. Shunsui and Ukitake have shown nothing worth mentioning regarding strength, and there's nothing to compare Shunsui's speed when he moved Nanao somewhere else. And please don't bring the "They fought Yamamoto" card because that's just ignoring the details. They are tricksters, they have no honor, and they do what is necessary to win, standing back and waiting for the perfect opportunity to strike, and Yamamoto had no be extremely careful to not fall into any of their traps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    If he's at best, considering that some other captains are probably around the same level, ranked 6 out of 13, he's average.
    You're pulling that out of nowhere. No other captain but Aizen and Yamamoto has shown to be at the same level of skill all around. By the way, that thing you just called an average is actually called a median, and it's a whole lot different. It doesn't help either that most captains specialize at something and you're blatantly putting Byakuya in the middle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    That laundry list of feats doesn't change reality. Maybe you should keep a more thorough accounting of events.
    Right back at you. "That list of facts doesn't change the reality I choose to believe." That's how you sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This sounds like a list of excuses. Obviously individuals have different styles, and because of this matchups play out differently. The reality remains that when Renji has come up against individuals that would be considered captain-class, he has hit a wall.
    I won't consider blatant disregard of the ever important details as facts. I wouldn't hire you as a forensic investigator either, even at gunpoint. "After a through investigation, I conclude that this corpse is dead" No shit!

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The fact remains.
    "And I might add, it's cold and rigid." [/canned laughter] Every Bankai works in a different way. Ikkaku's is a triple bladed nunchaku thing, when it broke, the put together fixed Bankai is going to be "a lot less powerful" because it's nothing more than a bunch metal pieces stuck together with glue. In Renji's case the Bankai is a lot shorter because most pieces were ground to dust. In Byakuya's case he must have some hundred thousand or million blades less, in Ichigo's case the sword is cut in half and probably can't use GT because there's not enough blade to create one. Renji's Bankai may be shorter, but it's strength should not be affected because it's controlled by the reishi that runs through the links and not the links themselves. If anything it gave Chad less bladed links to worry about, and I'm taking the retcon into consideration now, because Renji's Bankai didn't change at all before recent chapters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm not sure if you're actually trying to make a point here.
    What is stronger? A captain or a Bankai? Who wins if you make a captain fight its own Bankai? Fillers need not apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I read the chapters. We saw how he compared to Nnoitra, and the massive difference in power between them.
    You saw a lot that wasn't there. Nnoitra never used anything besides physical strength, dirty tricks, and maybe a Cero here and there. What's actually shown is Chad failing to punch through Nnoitra's Hierro, which was so hard that Zaraki had to use a lot of force just to cut through, and this is a guy that is not exactly a rookie when it comes to cutting things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So Chad was not even close to a match for someone of captain-level. That is basically what you're saying here. Yeah, Nnoitra is difficult to kill. That's what makes him captain-level, and why Chad never stood a chance.
    That is not what I was saying. Don't put words in my mouth. Nnoitra was very hard to kill, and if Chad did actually injure Nnoitra internally, unless he was a sponge, it would have been nothing compared to what he's capable of taking before dying. And no, being difficult to kill doesn't make anyone a captain level. You have vice captains surviving being cut in half or having half of their torso blown away, and yet captain levels dying from a single cut in the chest or a stab. And you're saying here, that "Chad was not even close to be a match for someone of captain-level", which is again baseless. And I don't know if you realize, or just don't care, but this tournament includes the most recent Chad, so that means everything he did when he was reaching captain level, and two more years he had to train, including the possibility of transforming his entire body, for an even bigger power boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This list is pretty pointless, just to point out. He might have these things down, but at the end of the day...he just isn't good enough.
    Don't evade the question then. What is a captain level feat? Details first, result second.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  7. #21
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Chad and Renji have very different fight styles, but as far as strength is concerned, Chad is visibly superior, and has a much faster growth rate. Renji is almost good enough to be considered a captain, but he does need some more training with his Bankai and every other basic skill.
    I think most would disagree that Chad is 'visibly superior' to Renji. There isn't anything to support such an argument.

    Quote Quote:
    Except that's not the case. Soifon and Yoruichi may be better at Hakuda and Shunpo, Hachigen and Tessai may be better at Kido, Zaraki and Yachiru may be better at Zanjutsu, Komamura and Love may be stronger, Shunsui and Ukitake may be the most dynamic and Mayuri and Urahara may be smarter, but Byakuya has everything mastered to a very high degree. Mix it with his natural talent and visible power, and you have one of the most fearsome captains.

    I know Aizen and Yamamoto are superior, but how are Shunsui, Ukitake and Yachiru "clearly superior"? Yachiru has only shown to be an exceptional healer and swordsman, nothing more, although her skill with Kaido and reiatsu control must make her a very good Kido user. Shunsui and Ukitake have shown nothing worth mentioning regarding strength, and there's nothing to compare Shunsui's speed when he moved Nanao somewhere else. And please don't bring the "They fought Yamamoto" card because that's just ignoring the details. They are tricksters, they have no honor, and they do what is necessary to win, standing back and waiting for the perfect opportunity to strike, and Yamamoto had no be extremely careful to not fall into any of their traps.

    You're pulling that out of nowhere. No other captain but Aizen and Yamamoto has shown to be at the same level of skill all around. By the way, that thing you just called an average is actually called a median, and it's a whole lot different. It doesn't help either that most captains specialize at something and you're blatantly putting Byakuya in the middle.
    Yes, lots of people are better than Byakuya at lots of things. Not sure you're helping yourself out here. How is Unohana superior to Byakuya? Unohana slaughtered Kenpachi countless times, each time with him returning much stronger than before. Are you suggesting that Byakuya is stronger than Unohana? Seriously? Shunsui's performance speaks for itself. And whether or not you consider the senior captains honourable is entirely irrelevant to their power. As for your wholly pointless attempt to look mildly intelligent; I said he was average, not that he was an average. And for the record the median in a list of numbers from 1 to 13 is 7, not 6.

    Quote Quote:
    Right back at you. "That list of facts doesn't change the reality I choose to believe." That's how you sound.
    Yes, that's about right. I choose to read, understand, and utilise common sense and logic to come to an obvious conclusion.

    Quote Quote:
    I won't consider blatant disregard of the ever important details as facts. I wouldn't hire you as a forensic investigator either, even at gunpoint. "After a through investigation, I conclude that this corpse is dead" No shit!
    I accept your facts, when they're facts. The important fact here is that Renji has been handily defeated by every captain-class individual he has come up against. I point out the obvious simply because you choose to completely ignore it.

    Quote Quote:
    "And I might add, it's cold and rigid." [/canned laughter] Every Bankai works in a different way. Ikkaku's is a triple bladed nunchaku thing, when it broke, the put together fixed Bankai is going to be "a lot less powerful" because it's nothing more than a bunch metal pieces stuck together with glue. In Renji's case the Bankai is a lot shorter because most pieces were ground to dust. In Byakuya's case he must have some hundred thousand or million blades less, in Ichigo's case the sword is cut in half and probably can't use GT because there's not enough blade to create one. Renji's Bankai may be shorter, but it's strength should not be affected because it's controlled by the reishi that runs through the links and not the links themselves. If anything it gave Chad less bladed links to worry about, and I'm taking the retcon into consideration now, because Renji's Bankai didn't change at all before recent chapters.
    Lots of words, none detract from what I said. Renji's bankai was damaged. Once again, another fact.

    Quote Quote:
    What is stronger? A captain or a Bankai? Who wins if you make a captain fight its own Bankai? Fillers need not apply.
    This question is completely asinine.

    Quote Quote:
    You saw a lot that wasn't there. Nnoitra never used anything besides physical strength, dirty tricks, and maybe a Cero here and there. What's actually shown is Chad failing to punch through Nnoitra's Hierro, which was so hard that Zaraki had to use a lot of force just to cut through, and this is a guy that is not exactly a rookie when it comes to cutting things.
    I saw Chad unable to cause Nnoitra any real concern. Then I saw a Captain show up and take him on, something that Chad wasn't even close to being able to do.


    Quote Quote:
    That is not what I was saying. Don't put words in my mouth. Nnoitra was very hard to kill, and if Chad did actually injure Nnoitra internally, unless he was a sponge, it would have been nothing compared to what he's capable of taking before dying. And no, being difficult to kill doesn't make anyone a captain level. You have vice captains surviving being cut in half or having half of their torso blown away, and yet captain levels dying from a single cut in the chest or a stab. And you're saying here, that "Chad was not even close to be a match for someone of captain-level", which is again baseless. And I don't know if you realize, or just don't care, but this tournament includes the most recent Chad, so that means everything he did when he was reaching captain level, and two more years he had to train, including the possibility of transforming his entire body, for an even bigger power boost.
    So Chad was unable to defeat Nnoitra. Nnotira's durability was one of the things that was integral to his strength, a strength of captain-level. How is what I said 'baseless'? Which component is off? Chad wasn't close to being a match for Nnoitra; that seems right. And Nnoitra is someone of captain-level; a fair assessment. So what's off about my statement, other than you just not liking it?

    The possibility of transforming his body? Maybe he can fly too. Read the rules of the tournament, or simply go back to the first page of this to see the moderator's post. Now you're just wasting time.

    Quote Quote:
    Don't evade the question then. What is a captain level feat? Details first, result second.
    Being able to take on a Captain, or someone of comparable power, and at the very least force them to actually get serious is probably a start.

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  9. #22
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member xXAshisogiJizoXx's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Komamura wasn't actually trying back then, he even let Poww punch him back, and released Bankai just to show off who had the biggest release.
    Showing off doesn't sound like Komamura. He only ever comes across as efficient and no holds barred, so can't agree with your statement. I don't doubt Koma wasn't taking Poww super seriously, but to say he was more or less slacking doesn't fit his character, nor had he alluded to going super easy in any such way. Nor does your statement counter Poww's achievement, which was easily beating Ikkaku while sealed, someone who can be considered easily around the same spectrum as Renji/Ishida/Chad.

    It's important to note that Nnoi sliced through Chad's arm of the giant VERY easily while he was sealed. one-shotting him more or less. I don't think any captain class would fall to Nnoi that quickly, even Mayuri. So I do think Chad is around high level VC, maybe even higher, but he is no captain level fighter. Gantenbeinne is no doubt a strong opponent and shouldn't be seen as fodder, but he was 107, so the difference between him and Dordoni could be very noticeable. And Poww can easily be seen as an above high level VC fighter. In the end, though, even if Chad is Ishida's equal, which I don't think unlikely, I don't think either of them could easily handle Poww, who is more or less a "freak" as far as his rank is concerned. Not to mention Barragan in general had some tough fraccion.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

  10. #23
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I think most would disagree that Chad is 'visibly superior' to Renji. There isn't anything to support such an argument.
    A punch from Chad created a big explosion that blows everything away in its direction. Renji can break rocks. Chad is much stronger physically and the fact that he fought against Renji's Bankai and improved even further just adds to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yes, lots of people are better than Byakuya at lots of things. Not sure you're helping yourself out here.
    Did you even read what I said? Almost everybody specializes and excels at something, and while those people are superior to Byakuya in their respective strengths, Byakuya excels at everything all around and can actually support that hype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    How is Unohana superior to Byakuya? Unohana slaughtered Kenpachi countless times, each time with him returning much stronger than before.
    I will not accept words taken out of context as facts. Zaraki became a better swordsman every time he was near death. Simply becoming stronger was not going to help him beat Yachiru who was much more skilled than him, and at the time the best swordsman ever. Zaraki actually became better at fighting if you follow the manga, not just those words. By the way, "much stronger" is baseless, and if it were true, he would be hundreds of times stronger than he was, and that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Are you suggesting that Byakuya is stronger than Unohana? Seriously?
    Yachiru "1000 sword styles" was the master of sword fighting and all flows and techniques and whatever. She was the best swordsman around and her physical power as well as reiatsu were irrelevant because she was so good no armed opponent would ever be able to reach her or be able to defend from her attacks. She was nearly unparalleled at Zanjutsu and Kaido, and nothing even suggests that she was the best at everything else. With Byakuya on the other hand, there's plenty to go by that confirms his skill and power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Shunsui's performance speaks for itself.
    Don't ignore the details. Shunsui could have killed Aizen, Isshin and Yamamoto by himself, and not because he's strong, but because he will do whatever it takes to win and wait for the right moment to strike. He spent his entire fight with Starrk using underhanded method trying to win, did the same thing against Aizen, and there's no reason to believe he didn't do the same against Yamamoto especially considering his Zanpakuto grants him the ability to catch his opponents off guard.
    Unless you think Shunsui actually faced Yamamoto head on and took his fire attacks directly which would be completely off character and disregarding his own abilities and fighting style that has remained constant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And whether or not you consider the senior captains honourable is entirely irrelevant to their power.
    That plays a big part because not every fight boils down to power levels. Captains are expected to be more than just strong idiots. While Love and Rose were busy trying to fight the Primera Espada, Shunsui was on the ground playing dead, waiting for Starrk to make a mistake, and his patience ultimately paid off and killed Starrk almost no effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    As for your wholly pointless attempt to look mildly intelligent; I said he was average, not that he was an average. And for the record the median in a list of numbers from 1 to 13 is 7, not 6.
    Not in the context of your claim. Saying that he was average based on his rank as 6.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yes, that's about right. I choose to read, understand, and utilise common sense and logic to come to an obvious conclusion.
    You must have a very backwards method to be able to arrive to such conclusion that facts don't make up the truth. What you're basically saying is that everything that Byakuya has to show is not enough, and that you can continue to believe what you want based on common sense and logic, or so you say, despite having just ignored the facts that defy your point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I accept your facts, when they're facts. The important fact here is that Renji has been handily defeated by every captain-class individual he has come up against. I point out the obvious simply because you choose to completely ignore it.
    Being completely ironic because you are ignoring the details, as if the result alone will help you. Renji fought Byakuya, a very strong captain all around, Szayel who had a bunch of science tricks including nullifying the power of somebody he had studied beforehand, and Yammi, an excessively powerful Arrancar. There's not much to go based on this. The surprise attack from the luchador Stern Ritter doesn't qualify.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Lots of words, none detract from what I said. Renji's bankai was damaged. Once again, another fact.
    Not before the retcon. And once again, words taken out of context are not facts. Renji's Bankai is powered by his reishi, which connects the links and controls the entire serpent. Even if you go by the retcon 300 chapters later the Bankai was still a huge mass with many bladed links attack Chad all at once, and he had the power to fight it head on, and to put it in perspective, Byakuya couldn't beat it with his body alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This question is completely asinine.
    Why are you so afraid to answer? Bankai usually have their own moves and powers without the user having to do anything. Byakuya can stand still while the blades to all the work, Yamamoto doesn't get any boost from Zanka no Tachi, he just becomes extremely hot, Unohana's Minazuki melts everything without her doing anything, and so on. The power of the Bankai lies in the Bankai itself, and the user is a lot weaker. Chad was capable of handling a vice captain Bankai, who was also a pretty strong vice captain without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I saw Chad unable to cause Nnoitra any real concern. Then I saw a Captain show up and take him on, something that Chad wasn't even close to being able to do.
    Just like Ichigo, Nel and Zaraki didn't concern Nnoitra. And for what I can see, you're ignoring the details as always, such as the immense force required to cut through Nnoitra's Hierro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So Chad was unable to defeat Nnoitra. Nnotira's durability was one of the things that was integral to his strength, a strength of captain-level.
    And you're saying that because Chad couldn't do much to the most durable Espada, he's not close to captain level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    How is what I said 'baseless'? Which component is off? Chad wasn't close to being a match for Nnoitra; that seems right.
    Nnoitra didn't have much as far as speed, agility, intelligence or destructive capabilities, he survived that long because of his durability. Nel and Zaraki could have sliced him in half very quickly if it wasn't for that Hierro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And Nnoitra is someone of captain-level; a fair assessment. So what's off about my statement, other than you just not liking it?
    Your A > B > C = A > C logic. Ignoring details. Not taking into account both characters strength and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The possibility of transforming his body? Maybe he can fly too. Read the rules of the tournament, or simply go back to the first page of this to see the moderator's post. Now you're just wasting time.
    Chad was at around captain level by the Arrancar Arc, he got stronger after that, and it's very relevant as far as the rules are concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Being able to take on a Captain, or someone of comparable power, and at the very least force them to actually get serious is probably a start.
    Extremely flawed logic. By that logic the strongest at A skill will beat the strongest at B skill with ease, so B guy is not captain level.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  11. #24
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    A punch from Chad created a big explosion that blows everything away in its direction. Renji can break rocks. Chad is much stronger physically and the fact that he fought against Renji's Bankai and improved even further just adds to it.
    Ok, just clarifying. I disagree, but anyway.

    Quote Quote:
    Did you even read what I said? Almost everybody specializes and excels at something, and while those people are superior to Byakuya in their respective strengths, Byakuya excels at everything all around and can actually support that hype.

    I will not accept words taken out of context as facts. Zaraki became a better swordsman every time he was near death. Simply becoming stronger was not going to help him beat Yachiru who was much more skilled than him, and at the time the best swordsman ever. Zaraki actually became better at fighting if you follow the manga, not just those words. By the way, "much stronger" is baseless, and if it were true, he would be hundreds of times stronger than he was, and that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

    Yachiru "1000 sword styles" was the master of sword fighting and all flows and techniques and whatever. She was the best swordsman around and her physical power as well as reiatsu were irrelevant because she was so good no armed opponent would ever be able to reach her or be able to defend from her attacks. She was nearly unparalleled at Zanjutsu and Kaido, and nothing even suggests that she was the best at everything else. With Byakuya on the other hand, there's plenty to go by that confirms his skill and power.

    Don't ignore the details. Shunsui could have killed Aizen, Isshin and Yamamoto by himself, and not because he's strong, but because he will do whatever it takes to win and wait for the right moment to strike. He spent his entire fight with Starrk using underhanded method trying to win, did the same thing against Aizen, and there's no reason to believe he didn't do the same against Yamamoto especially considering his Zanpakuto grants him the ability to catch his opponents off guard.
    Unless you think Shunsui actually faced Yamamoto head on and took his fire attacks directly which would be completely off character and disregarding his own abilities and fighting style that has remained constant.

    That plays a big part because not every fight boils down to power levels. Captains are expected to be more than just strong idiots. While Love and Rose were busy trying to fight the Primera Espada, Shunsui was on the ground playing dead, waiting for Starrk to make a mistake, and his patience ultimately paid off and killed Starrk almost no effort.
    Most of this is entirely irrelevant to your assertion that Byakuya is one of the strongest captains. There are quite a few individuals that are superior to him in Kido, Zanjutsu, Hoho, and Hakuda. There are those with greater intellects and greater raw strength. The only thing you've shown is that Byakuya has a more balanced approach. You're arguing that Byakuya is a jack-of-all-trades, which isn't what this discussion is about. Is he or is he not stronger, that is the topic of discussion.

    If Zaraki became a better swordsman every time Unohana brought him back, he became a stronger foe. What is there to discuss? And how is 'much stronger' baseless; Zaraki went from being casual play for Unohana to bringing her down while she utilised her bankai. He became much stronger. Are you actually trying to be dense? And where you got this 100s of times stronger nonsense from is absolutely beyond me.

    As for Unohana, I'm not arguing that she was better than Byakuya at everything. I'm saying she was stronger than Byakuya. You essentially admit to that, and then try to point out that Byakuya has a lot of skill as though it changes things. And just to point out at the very least she's shown better Zanjutsu and Kido.

    Quote Quote:
    Not in the context of your claim. Saying that he was average based on his rank as 6.
    He is average.

    Quote Quote:
    You must have a very backwards method to be able to arrive to such conclusion that facts don't make up the truth. What you're basically saying is that everything that Byakuya has to show is not enough, and that you can continue to believe what you want based on common sense and logic, or so you say, despite having just ignored the facts that defy your point of view.
    What has Byakuya shown that makes him one of the strongest captains? His greatest feat at the moment is his defeat of Zommari, the 7th Espada. He's a captain; you've shown that he deserves to be one, but in no way have you, or the manga, shown that he is 'one of the strongest captains'.

    Quote Quote:
    Being completely ironic because you are ignoring the details, as if the result alone will help you. Renji fought Byakuya, a very strong captain all around, Szayel who had a bunch of science tricks including nullifying the power of somebody he had studied beforehand, and Yammi, an excessively powerful Arrancar. There's not much to go based on this. The surprise attack from the luchador Stern Ritter doesn't qualify.
    So once again, you just list reasons why Renji has lost every single battle against captain-level foes, rather than show what he has accomplished. Although, I don't get why this is an issue considering that you've already said you think Renji is a decade away from being captain-class.

    Quote Quote:
    Not before the retcon. And once again, words taken out of context are not facts. Renji's Bankai is powered by his reishi, which connects the links and controls the entire serpent. Even if you go by the retcon 300 chapters later the Bankai was still a huge mass with many bladed links attack Chad all at once, and he had the power to fight it head on, and to put it in perspective, Byakuya couldn't beat it with his body alone.
    I'm not here to argue about how the fact came to be a fact, or whether or not you like it. Renji's bankai was damaged; end discussion.

    Quote Quote:
    Why are you so afraid to answer? Bankai usually have their own moves and powers without the user having to do anything. Byakuya can stand still while the blades to all the work, Yamamoto doesn't get any boost from Zanka no Tachi, he just becomes extremely hot, Unohana's Minazuki melts everything without her doing anything, and so on. The power of the Bankai lies in the Bankai itself, and the user is a lot weaker. Chad was capable of handling a vice captain Bankai, who was also a pretty strong vice captain without it.
    I refused to answer because it's an asinine question. Who's stronger the captain or the bankai? Bankai is a part of a captain's repertoire, it is powered by a captain. Since it is only one aspect of their strength, it is necessarily weaker than the captain is in their entirety. Considering your extensive list of Byakuya's abilities this should be pretty clear to you.

    Quote Quote:
    Just like Ichigo, Nel and Zaraki didn't concern Nnoitra. And for what I can see, you're ignoring the details as always, such as the immense force required to cut through Nnoitra's Hierro.
    This is just ridiculous. Considering that Zaraki killed Nnoitra, I don't even know where this came from.

    Quote Quote:
    And you're saying that because Chad couldn't do much to the most durable Espada, he's not close to captain level.
    Yep, that is part of my argument. Yes. He was completely outclassed by some on the level of a captain.

    Quote Quote:
    Nnoitra didn't have much as far as speed, agility, intelligence or destructive capabilities, he survived that long because of his durability. Nel and Zaraki could have sliced him in half very quickly if it wasn't for that Hierro.
    Thank you for listing Nnotira's qualities. Very useful.

    Quote Quote:
    Your A > B > C = A > C logic. Ignoring details. Not taking into account both characters strength and weaknesses.
    And where did you see that logic utilised?

    Quote Quote:
    Chad was at around captain level by the Arrancar Arc, he got stronger after that, and it's very relevant as far as the rules are concerned.
    Feel free to reread the rules if you want to post here.

    Quote Quote:
    Extremely flawed logic. By that logic the strongest at A skill will beat the strongest at B skill with ease, so B guy is not captain level.
    What you're saying isn't even remotely the same as what you're responding to.

  12. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Firstly, Renji during Chad's training wasn't captain-class. He achieved bankai, but Byakuya showed the gulf in class between the two of them with casual ease.
    I asked the simplest question in the world & that is for you to give concrete evidence of your assertion. "Any decent VC can" take on Gantenbainne & seemingly it appears to be a difficult task. You digressing from this fundamental question is saying a lot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And I also don't get this Byakuya being one of the strongest captains, he was average among the captains.
    As far as everything goes, besides Yamamoto & Aizen, no captain had performed as excellent as he, no other captains had demonstrated excellence that exceeds his & manga factual feats supports that claim but since you don't get it like most or you refuse to get it even after the countless pages of feats you have been indulge to, I'm not wasting my time on this tournament trying to explain it rather I will ask evidence of your assertion of "he was average" came from. Post who is above him & their feats if you can. I challenge you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The difference between Renji and a captain-class individual was only reinforced when both he and Ishida attempted to take on Szayelapporo. Let's just get that out of the way.
    Not so fast! Difference made clear when he & Ishida attempted to take on Szayelapporo you say? You either never read what occurred in those chapters or you purposely ignored a very crucial detail regarding that fight & as you've exemplified in the past you carry this characteristic of ignoring details similar to what you did here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Furthermore, Renji had just recently had his bankai torn to shreds and seriously weakened. Secondly, he could hold off Renji's bankai, but he wasn't Renji's equal.
    You read the basic infrastructure of what empowers Renji's bankai segments (his reishi) http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-17.html but again ignored that very detail & told Torran to move on. Unless you change your wrongful opinion I dare say you relinquish your audacity to ever touch ever this subject again & if you do your opinion will have no value. It goes against fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    That's important to differentiate. Thirdly, Chad improved significantly during his battle against Gantenbainne, but he went beyond an individual that just wouldn't compare to any of the captains.
    Evidence of your assertion. Pics & feats or simply hold your tongue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    That became immediately clear when he faced up against Nnoitra, someone who would be considered captain-class. He was barely a nuisance.
    Yukio isn't a captain class fighter however the moment he traps any individuals who aren't transcendent & regardless of their numbers & unless he acts stupid, victory. We've seen examples of this when he trapped over 5 gotei 13 captain class individuals (Byakuya, Renji, Ikkaku, Toshiro, Zaraki) into his video game.
    Another example of how your misapprehension on what captain class is no doubt. Continuously disregarding the fact that different fighting styles exist for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    What Chad has achieved in 2 years remains unknown? His last rapid advancement was under the conditions of HM, how much he has improved is up in the air. The reality is that he hasn't shown feats equal to a captain-class individual.
    How is this for a fact. Two years of meaningful training to catch up with Ichigo's force but even prior to this two years of training, Chad was above every single VC captain of the gotei 13 evident when he fought & pushed Renji's bankai force to the very limit & that was before acclimatising himself in the realm of HM & subsequently obtaining his devil arm.

    .No "decent VC" or your misconception of the word "decent VC" is going to be able to push Bankai Renji at that point in time.
    .Chad pushed bankai Renji.
    .Chad got his butt kicked despite being capable of pushing bankai Renji to his limits by the previous espada sealed state.
    .Chad got a powered up, obtained a second hand & annihilated the previous released state espada with his might.
    & you say decent VC can handle that previous Espada?

  13. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Kazu-Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    As far as everything goes, besides Yamamoto & Aizen, no captain had performed as excellent as he, no other captains had demonstrated excellence that exceeds his & manga factual feats supports that claim but since you don't get it like most or you refuse to get it even after the countless pages of feats you have been indulge to, I'm not wasting my time on this tournament trying to explain it rather I will ask evidence of your assertion of "he was average" came from. Post who is above him & their feats if you can. I challenge you!

    Not so fast! Difference made clear when he & Ishida attempted to take on Szayelapporo you say? You either never read what occurred in those chapters or you purposely ignored a very crucial detail regarding that fight & as you've exemplified in the past you carry this characteristic of ignoring details similar to what you did here.
    I was trying to stay out of this but since you insist -

    Yamamoto is pretty self-explanatory.
    Shunsui managed to beat the number one espada, whereas Byakuya only just beat Zommari
    Unohana managed to kill Kenpachi hundreds of times, when he's incredibly strong
    Kenpachi beat Unohana
    Shinji hasn't shown any major feats, but his Shikai is perfect for countering Byakuya.

    Byakuya isn't that strong - sure, he's versatile but he suffers from 'jack of all trades, master of none'. In a battle against Kenpachi, the second Kenpachi got close he'd beat Byakuya due to the difference in skill there.

    Shunsui may not be as brutally destructive as Byakuya, but his Shikai games and intelligence give him a distinct advantage at range...

    Epic Brofist!

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazu-Sama View Post
    I was trying to stay out of this but since you insist -

    Yamamoto is pretty self-explanatory.
    Shunsui managed to beat the number one espada, whereas Byakuya only just beat Zommari
    Unohana managed to kill Kenpachi hundreds of times, when he's incredibly strong
    Kenpachi beat Unohana
    Shinji hasn't shown any major feats, but his Shikai is perfect for countering Byakuya.

    Byakuya isn't that strong - sure, he's versatile but he suffers from 'jack of all trades, master of none'. In a battle against Kenpachi, the second Kenpachi got close he'd beat Byakuya due to the difference in skill there.

    Shunsui may not be as brutally destructive as Byakuya, but his Shikai games and intelligence give him a distinct advantage at range...
    1) Another awesome example of A>B>C = A>C scenario Kazu-Sama & you know what? This particular Shunsui vs Starrk example of yours doesn't work for several reasons.

    I can also give similar examples to what you gave but before I do that let me start by saying, Shunsui absolutely didn't fight the might of Starrk, the Vizard captains did. Rather Shunsui waited for the right timing & chance to strike his foe down. Victory isn't establish or determine by which party is the strongest, rather by timing & chance & Shunsui took his chances & waited for the righting timing to catch Starrk with his power & won the battle.

    The end result is what you are looking at not what lead to the end result & that's a flawed logic.

    Now as for examples?

    Yukio isn't stronger than a captain however he could defeat 20 captains.

    Barragan is superior to Soifon & Hachigen however he allowed his arrogance to take over & his superiority had no meaning.

    Tousen could & would have killed Zaraki easily in the SS arc however he made stupid decisions.

    Gin was no where near Transcended Aizen however Aizen was embarrassed by him in spite of the gap in power because of timing & chance. & Aizen would have died if he didn't have his immortality status.

    2) As for Unohana. He killed Zaraki several times in a sword battle. So what of it? Zaraki is an individual that lacks the basic high speed movement. Byakuya has the tools to replicate what she did by simply grinding Zaraki several times with several millions high speed moving blades. Zaraki can't combat an individual like Byakuya. He is disadvantaged to do so.

    3) During that sword fight, Unohana later used bankai to which would have incinerated Zaraki however her constant healing made it so that Zaraki escaped those deaths as intended. The purpose of that training wasn't for Unohana do kill Zaraki otherwise she wouldn't have healed him & rather let him burn to ashes. The purpose was for Zaraki to learn the advance lesson of the Zanjustsu (& that's what the training was called). At the end of it all Zaraki surpassed Unohana at fighting with the sword but Unohana also allowed herself to Zaraki's strike at the end.

    So again you example doesn't work.

    4) Byakuya has the exact counter for a fighter like Shinji with shikai. Shinji's shikai merely disrupts & manipulates the sense of sight. Byakuya has access of Millions of blades being controlled by his mind.

    5) Shunsui can defeat any opponent given the circumstances. His ability supports him in being able to accomplish just that. Again victory is determine by timing & chance not whom is necessarily the strongest however we are looking at who is strong to be categories into a certain groups here not who can defeat who given the circumstance.
    Last edited by Kay3795; June 20, 2013 at 01:36 PM.

  15. #28
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    I asked the simplest question in the world & that is for you to give concrete evidence of your assertion. "Any decent VC can" take on Gantenbainne & seemingly it appears to be a difficult task. You digressing from this fundamental question is saying a lot.
    Because Chad is below captain-level. The difference in level became clear when he faced up against Nnoitra; he was unable to even mildly threaten someone of captain-class.

    Quote Quote:
    As far as everything goes, besides Yamamoto & Aizen, no captain had performed as excellent as he, no other captains had demonstrated excellence that exceeds his & manga factual feats supports that claim but since you don't get it like most or you refuse to get it even after the countless pages of feats you have been indulge to, I'm not wasting my time on this tournament trying to explain it rather I will ask evidence of your assertion of "he was average" came from. Post who is above him & their feats if you can. I challenge you!
    Byakuya's greatest feat is his defeat over Zommari, the 7th Espada. Shunsui has shown himself to be superior. He wouldn't hold a candle to the monster that is Unohana. You're leaving some obvious names off the list. Kenpachi defeated a higher-ranked Espada. If you include the likes of Shinji, Isshin, Yoruichi, and Urahara, Byakuya finds himself even farther down in the pecking order.

    Quote Quote:
    Not so fast! Difference made clear when he & Ishida attempted to take on Szayelapporo you say? You either never read what occurred in those chapters or you purposely ignored a very crucial detail regarding that fight & as you've exemplified in the past you carry this characteristic of ignoring details similar to what you did here.
    Was my assertion that they were losing badly to Szayel inaccurate? Renji has yet to hold his own against someone of captain-class.

    Quote Quote:
    You read the basic infrastructure of what empowers Renji's bankai segments (his reishi) http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-17.html but again ignored that very detail & told Torran to move on. Unless you change your wrongful opinion I dare say you relinquish your audacity to ever touch ever this subject again & if you do your opinion will have no value. It goes against fact.
    Once again, you're running on about something that adds nothing to the conversation. Renji's bankai was damaged; fact.

    Quote Quote:
    Evidence of your assertion. Pics & feats or simply hold your tongue.
    It's amazing how you beg for links, yet can't provide anything to show that Chad is captain-level. Chad's performance against Nnoitra speaks for itself

    Quote Quote:
    Yukio isn't a captain class fighter however the moment he traps any individuals who aren't transcendent & regardless of their numbers & unless he acts stupid, victory. We've seen examples of this when he trapped over 5 gotei 13 captain class individuals (Byakuya, Renji, Ikkaku, Toshiro, Zaraki) into his video game.
    Another example of how your misapprehension on what captain class is no doubt. Continuously disregarding the fact that different fighting styles exist for a reason.
    Is this meant to mean something? Yukio was a plaything for Hitsugaya. Yukio's style accomplished absolutely nothing.

    Quote Quote:
    How is this for a fact. Two years of meaningful training to catch up with Ichigo's force but even prior to this two years of training, Chad was above every single VC captain of the gotei 13 evident when he fought & pushed Renji's bankai force to the very limit & that was before acclimatising himself in the realm of HM & subsequently obtaining his devil arm.

    .No "decent VC" or your misconception of the word "decent VC" is going to be able to push Bankai Renji at that point in time.
    .Chad pushed bankai Renji.
    .Chad got his butt kicked despite being capable of pushing bankai Renji to his limits by the previous espada sealed state.
    .Chad got a powered up, obtained a second hand & annihilated the previous released state espada with his might.
    & you say decent VC can handle that previous Espada?
    Like before, refer to the rules of the tournament. We've seen what some of the VCs are capable of during the battle at Karakura, I'd wager that they'd be able to take care of Gantenabainne. Once again, we've seen Chad's performance against individuals of captain-level; he's been useless.

  16. #29
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Leonsagara's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Ichigo wasn't able to do anything against Noitra either. Does that make him not captain class? Chad had just come out of a tough fight where he expended a lot of energy when Noitra came along. I'm not saying that Chad is exactly a captain-level fighter, but to say that he isn't strong just because he wasn't able to defeat Noitra is ignoring the circumstances. Espadas 1-4 were strong enough to stand against multiple captain level opponents and be a serious threat still.

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 7 vs Team 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonsagara View Post
    Ichigo wasn't able to do anything against Noitra either. Does that make him not captain class? Chad had just come out of a tough fight where he expended a lot of energy when Noitra came along. I'm not saying that Chad is exactly a captain-level fighter, but to say that he isn't strong just because he wasn't able to defeat Noitra is ignoring the circumstances. Espadas 1-4 were strong enough to stand against multiple captain level opponents and be a serious threat still.
    There were major differences between Ichigo and Chad's conditions when facing Nnoitra, and how the battles played out differed significantly also. Ichigo had just battled intensely against Grimmjow; he was exhausted and wounded. And there are a host of other battles we can look to when it comes to Ichigo. My focus on Nnoitra when it comes to Chad is that he is the only individual of captain-class that we've seen Chad come up against after he had trained, and he didn't even manage to entertain Nnoitra. Matchups matter, I get that. However, Chad lacks feats on the level of captains, and the only battle we have to judge him on is his showing against Nnoitra, and that didn't get far. He put forth his best and didn't even manage to be much of a nuisance.

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