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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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  • Kurosaki Isshin

    10 33.33%
  • Unohana Retsu

    20 66.67%
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Thread: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

  1. #16
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    freshseth83
    Who is the current Captain Commander? Unohana? No. Shunsui is. So he is the one stronger than her, bgecause Captain Commander is the strongest Shinigami in Gotei and it was clearly stated by Yama. Shunsui was stated by Kubo in one of the interviews to be able to beat Aizen if he uses Bankai. At the same time Isshin quite easily managed to bring Aizen to his limit without even Shikai, so how come he isn't stronger than Unohana?

    P.S. Everyone, look in the First Databook. After Yama and Aizen in terms of combat abilities resides Shunsui and only after him there is Unohana... And this is an oficial info from Kubo...

  2. #17
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    freshseth83
    Who is the current Captain Commander? Unohana? No. Shunsui is. So he is the one stronger than her, bgecause Captain Commander is the strongest Shinigami in Gotei and it was clearly stated by Yama. Shunsui was stated by Kubo in one of the interviews to be able to beat Aizen if he uses Bankai. At the same time Isshin quite easily managed to bring Aizen to his limit without even Shikai, so how come he isn't stronger than Unohana?

    P.S. Everyone, look in the First Databook. After Yama and Aizen in terms of combat abilities resides Shunsui and only after him there is Unohana... And this is an oficial info from Kubo...
    actually,unohana is above kyoraku in that databook,but aizen (and therefore isshin as wel) is ways above them. about kyoraku,I highly dubt his bankai (which hasn't been shown yet) could defeat aizen,who owned all the captains and vizards,and whose bankai is still unknown.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    mattiaildivino
    No, there are two different sets of stats in the first Databook.
    1. First there go overall stats (in which as you've mentioned Unohana is above Kyoraku)
    2. While the second set contains actual combat skills in which Shunsui is stated above Unohana.

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...tains-Gotei-13

    Look in the thread above. The last set contains combat abilities chart (points ) and Shunsui is above Unohana

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Why are we bringing Databook statistics into this? It isn't a measurement of their strength, it's a measurement of their capacity for learning in that area. It's even stated in that same thread that was linked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goji View Post
    Ah yes, I know what you mean. The stats only give the amount/percentage in which each captain has trained himself in that area in relation to their own capacity.

    If a character has "100" for some stat, it means that he has honed that ability to his utmost capacity. He is "maxed out" for that stat. So if Yamamoto has a 100 for Kidou/Reiatsu it means he can no longer expand in this area, he can't make it better.

    So you see that the intrinsic "value" of that 100 is different for each character.

    To make it simple, an example (pure fictional): the 90 for Byakuya's strenght is maybe equal to a 50 in the area of strenght for Aizen.

    The numbers show the progress each captain has made in that specific area in relation to their own maximum capacity (i.e. "100").

    I hope this clears it up a little. ^^;
    So it doesn't matter whose stats are greater, it doesn't represent their strength.

    Off-Topic:
    Spoiler show

    Besides, this thread is about Isshin vs Unohana, so we should move this discussion elsewhere should we choose to continue.
    Last edited by eefrit; June 06, 2013 at 05:50 PM.

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  6. #20
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member leshrak's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Unohana's healing skills are winning this battle for her. Both of them have incredible attacking skills so I'll consider they're even on this matter. However Unohana is capable of healing deadly wounds many, many time on a single battle, which is something Isshin can't do. So I'm voting Unohana.
    Last edited by leshrak; June 06, 2013 at 10:46 PM.
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    eefrit
    It's clearly stated in the last set of stats that Shunsui's actual combat skills are higher than Unohana's, so how come under this logic can you say that Unohana is stronger?
    Also Captain Commander is the strongest Shinigami of Gotei. It was obviously stated by Yama, so until proven otherwise we should see Shunsui as the stronger one.

    Also, you should remember that during the massive battle between Captains and Aizen in FKT every Captain at least used Shikai, including Shunsui. And they couldn't do anything against Aizen and went down after one shot or slash.
    At the same time Shunsui with sealed sword managed to quite easily and playfully bring down to his limit.
    Also in Isshin's flashback we were shown that he was slashed by Aizen in his fight against White. Any other Captain easily went down after such a slash, while Isshin still continued fighting, so he seems to be quite a monster in taking damage, also his Getsuga even with a sealed sword was insanely devastative, so I can't see how Unohana can win if she is weaker than Shunsui and Aizen, while Isshin seems to be around Aizen's level at the very least while sealed.

  8. #22
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    As much as I'd love to see Isshin go all out and defeat Unohana, this just can't happen. Unohana wins.

  9. #23
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    I agree with Jorge D. Dragon that Shunsui being the CC kinda hints he's stronger than other captains, at least those in Gotei 13 but he can't use his bankai in this tournament which is surely his trump card. In a sword fight we have reason to believe that Unohana can challenge and probably defeat Shunsui or perhaps even the likes of Yamamoto or Aizen, so with the abilities he has shown so far, I see it highly unlikely that Isshin can make this disadvantage moot. Even though we're not sure what it exactly is, we also saw Unohana's bankai which, depending on how you interpret her abilities, makes it pretty hard for Isshin to have the upper hand under these circumstances. People also mentioned that Unohana can heal herself during the fight which is another plus for her, my vote goes to Unohana.

  10. #24
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    unohana stated those fights weren't that high,i mean: noitra??? ,yeah he was strong, but what about harribel (one-shot by aizen) or stark (defeated by kyoraku's shikai, who was owned by aizen nonetheless). ehi,are you really acknowledging kenpachi for dealing with 2 captains despite being in shikai mode??? Maaaan, aizen owned almost all the captains and vizards,and isshin was as strong as him.
    It's to demonstrate the massive increase in power Kenpachi goes through after some shackles are removed, and why it's so impressive that Unohana killed and revived him so many times.

    I also acknowledged that Isshin has the more straight up impressive feats by virtue of Aizen being more quantifiable than Current Kenpachi, so I don't know why you're listing off what Aizen did as if I'm unaware.


    Quote Quote:
    Furthermore, in a databook kubo put aizen above unohana, therefore isshin is above her as well...
    Sigh* Look at some of the other stats, particularly with Aizen and other captains. Notice that they're a little to close, or even equal with those that they clearly aren't?

  11. #25
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    I do not see how Shunsui's power relates to this fight. If it is in regard to him and the others getting beaten by Aizen while Isshin held his ground, there is a flaw with that comparison. Aizen did not use KS in any capacity to fight Isshin, while he used it heavily to surprise Kyoraku, Hitsu, Soifon, and Shinji. What's more is the three older captains were rushing to the aid of Hitsu who was acting recklessly, creating an opening for Aizen to strike. IMO Ishinn wouldn't have done any better against KS than Shunsui did.

    Isshin's strength is his well rounded physical capabilities, plus a powerful energy attack in engetsu. Unohana should be just as powerful physically, maybe compensating brute force with skill, but has EXTREMELY powerful healing.

    If engetsu lands, it will deal more damage than anything else either two can throw, but will it kill her outright? I don't think so. And if it doesn't, her powerful healing can save her. Definitely in a drawn out fight of attrition, her advantage grows.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

  12. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    I lost my original response earlier today so lets try this again.

    Spoiler show



    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Also in Isshin's flashback we were shown that he was slashed by Aizen in his fight against White. Any other Captain easily went down after such a slash, while Isshin still continued fighting, so he seems to be quite a monster in taking damage, also his Getsuga even with a sealed sword was insanely devastative, so I can't see how Unohana can win if she is weaker than Shunsui and Aizen, while Isshin seems to be around Aizen's level at the very least while sealed.
    Isshin wasn't cut by Aizen in the flashback, he was cut by Tousen. Chapter 531, page 19, bottom panel, you can see Suzumushi's ring on the blade. Also in the next chapter you can see Aizen behind both Gin and Kaname as they look at Isshin and White. And even though it wasn't Aizen that cut him, it still weakened him quite a bit to the point where he was going to potentially lose had it not been for Masaki's interference. His durability (during the flashback at least) wasn't much to write home about. And his performance against Aizen? Aizen himself mentioned that his soul was being reconstructed by the Hogyoku, so that had an effect on his performance in the fight. So the best you could say is that Isshin put up a nice fight against a tired Aizen.

    Isshin is strong, there is no doubt about it, but from what I've seen, I don't believe he is stronger than Unohana or Aizen.

  13. #27
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Shunsui's power is irrelevant, but can I point out Isshin's powerful moves he used against Aizen, not even in Shikai mode, were long range?
    His Getsuga Tenshou was incredibly powerful, and he could, with a flick of his fingers, send Aizen crashing through buildings?

    He also has enough Reitsu to hold back the Dangai powers for 3 months, singlehandedly.

    He was a strong captain, and hasn't shown to have lost any of that power.

    I'm not saying Unohana's weak, but don't get too overhyped when all she's shown was beating Kenpachi a load of times and an acidic Bankai that seems close range.
    Her healing powers are strong, too, but there's every chance a quick, powerful blow can render her unable to fight/heal, giving Isshin the win.

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  15. #28
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    eefrit

    Quote Quote:
    I don't get what you are going for here.
    I ment Isshin there Was a mistake on my part.

    Quote Quote:
    Isshin wasn't cut by Aizen in the flashback, he was cut by Tousen. Chapter 531, page 19, bottom panel, you can see Suzumushi's ring on the blade. Also in the next chapter you can see Aizen behind both Gin and Kaname as they look at Isshin and White. And even though it wasn't Aizen that cut him, it still weakened him quite a bit to the point where he was going to potentially lose had it not been for Masaki's interference. His durability (during the flashback at least) wasn't much to write home about. And his performance against Aizen? Aizen himself mentioned that his soul was being reconstructed by the Hogyoku, so that had an effect on his performance in the fight. So the best you could say is that Isshin put up a nice fight against a tired Aizen.
    Look here. It quite obviously looks that it was Aizen who slashed Isshin and not Tousen.
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/531/19

    And how come it's not a showcase of his durability? He actually managed to fight after beeing slashed by a sword in his back, while at the same time normal Shinigami would go down after this. Other Captains in a fight against Aizen went down after one slash.
    Also, remember, when Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin fought against evolved Aizen and were brought down by some move at the same time, Isshin was the first to get up and continue with Ichigo in Dangai. His stamina is incredible.

    And about reconstruction... I don't buy it, since before Aizen fought tons of Captains including Vaizards and didn't seem to have any problems fighting them and beeing reconstructed by Hougioku. While Isshin made the best performance against actual base Aizen a real monster who was only weaker than Yama in entire Gotei. So after beeing able to actually bring such an Aizen to a limit (who was actually able to take down multiple Captains in Shikai and Bankai at the same time) with a sealed Zanpaktou... If it's not a showcase of his enormous power, speed, Reiatsu and skill, then I don't know what I can add to this topic.

    P.S. Unohana is obviously weaker than Shunsui, otherwise she would have been Captain Commander, and well, both Unohana and Shunsui didn't show anything to be at least close to Aizen individually, while the same Isshin did show it, so how come he is weaker than Unohana?

  16. #29
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Guys,don't talk bullshit! Isshin was as strong as aizen without KS, but remember what Gin said: KS is an unbelievable power,but that's not the reason why aizen is so acknowledged, the reason is that he is hella strong. With a single strike,he slashed kyoraku and 3 other captains, unohana would have fall as well in front of him. Aizen and isshin are on a totally different level.

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  18. #30
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    *Aizen slashing down captains who were caught off position thanks to Hitsugaya sounds irrelevant to me. They needed to be highly cautious at that situation and didn't do anything to boost their chances.

    *Kyouraku fought against Starkk and received injuries, not to mention the amount of fatigue that piled up. So, Isshin jumping in fresh and holding his own against Aizen seems less unrealistic in that sense.

    *Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi had much more synchronization in their attacks than the rest of the Gotei 13, which is kinda inexplicable, since fellow captains were to have more of a chemistry in the first place naturally.

    *Last but not least, for one reason or another, Aizen didn't use an illusion in his place to make Isshin and others fight him. Seems to me that he was just trying to show off against Urahara, but who knows.

    In the light of all those points above, I don't think Isshin is necessarily at Kyouraku's or Unohana's level. Furthermore, Isshin hasn't showed anything that could make me call him the potential winner against Unohana, who is the master of all sword techniques in SS, let alone someone who can heal herself back in a couple of moments if the need to be.

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