Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (10/13/14 - 10/19/14).
Forum News: The nomination phase of the Community Awards 2014 is live! Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!

View Poll Results: Who wins?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Kurosaki Isshin

    10 33.33%
  • Unohana Retsu

    20 66.67%
Thread Closed
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 31 to 40 of 40

Thread: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Satellite of Love
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,447
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    eefrit
    Look here. It quite obviously looks that it was Aizen who slashed Isshin and not Tousen.
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/531/19
    No, that is Tousen. They just showed Aizen's face because, as always, he is the one behind everything. Whenever Aizen, Gin, and Tousen are together, it is always Tousen who acts on Aizen's behalf and gets his blade dirty. Not once has Aizen ever lifted a finger when they go out to do stuff. And again, you can see his ring on his blade on the bottom panel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    And how come it's not a showcase of his durability? He actually managed to fight after beeing slashed by a sword in his back, while at the same time normal Shinigami would go down after this. Other Captains in a fight against Aizen went down after one slash.
    Also, remember, when Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin fought against evolved Aizen and were brought down by some move at the same time, Isshin was the first to get up and continue with Ichigo in Dangai. His stamina is incredible.
    There have been plenty of Captains who could withstand similar slashes. What makes Isshin different than them? Other Captains were actually fighting Aizen. We don't even know what Urahara and Yoruichi were doing since they kinda disappeared after Ichigo and Urahara went into the Dangai. And they obviously weren't hurt that bad since Urahara came back at the end to his his seal work against Aizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    And about reconstruction... I don't buy it, since before Aizen fought tons of Captains including Vaizards and didn't seem to have any problems fighting them and beeing reconstructed by Hougioku. While Isshin made the best performance against actual base Aizen a real monster who was only weaker than Yama in entire Gotei. So after beeing able to actually bring such an Aizen to a limit (who was actually able to take down multiple Captains in Shikai and Bankai at the same time) with a sealed Zanpaktou... If it's not a showcase of his enormous power, speed, Reiatsu and skill, then I don't know what I can add to this topic.
    Well, it wasn't actually a fight and at that time he was still using Kyoka Suigetsu to freak with their minds, while he didn't use against Isshin. As for the Hogyoku not tiring out? In favor of Isshin, it could be that he forced the process to go faster because of his strength which tired Aizen in the middle of the fight. Or it could just be that it just wasn't ready to start reconstructing his soul during his fight with the Gotei 13. Either way the Hogokyu did mess with his performance. But again, given how strong Aizen is at full strength, Isshin facing off against a non full powered Aizen is still quite the feat. I'd say Isshin is in the same tier as Yoruichi and Urahara, who I think are Elite Captain, but who are weaker than the Elder Captains plus Aizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    P.S. Unohana is obviously weaker than Shunsui, otherwise she would have been Captain Commander, and well, both Unohana and Shunsui didn't show anything to be at least close to Aizen individually, while the same Isshin did show it, so how come he is weaker than Unohana?
    Probably has something to do with her, you know, being the worse criminal is S.S. history? (Wo)Manhandling Zaraki over 1000 times is a pretty big feat considering his strength before getting that stupid power up. The fact that she herself mentions that she was the greatest Swordsperson in S.S. is a pretty good indicator as well. And then there is the fact that Shunsui himself has been aware of her strength and made a passing comment about rather facing Zanka no Tachi than fight against her. He may have been joking, but why would he jokingly compare a Bankai like Zanka no Tachi against Unohana?

  2. #32
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Venice
    Country
    Italy
    Age
    21
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    When did kyoraku make that statement about yama's bankai? I must have missed it.

  3. #33
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Satellite of Love
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,447
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    @mattiaildivino

    Scratch that. While Shunsui has been shown to fear her, that statement about Yamamoto's bankai apparently has never been stated. Either someone took some liberties in a translation that I read long ago or it was stated in the anime and I got it mixed up, which I believe I did unfortunately. But in first TBTP chapter, Shunsui shows a bit of fear towards Unohana or he at least did not want to get on her bad side.

  4. #34
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Opportunist traveler.
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    397
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Since when was Aizen limited by the Hogyoku to the point you're claiming his performance against Isshin was not the best? I either missed it or you're making things up.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  5. #35
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Venice
    Country
    Italy
    Age
    21
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    @mattiaildivino

    Scratch that. While Shunsui has been shown to fear her, that statement about Yamamoto's bankai apparently has never been stated. Either someone took some liberties in a translation that I read long ago or it was stated in the anime and I got it mixed up, which I believe I did unfortunately. But in first TBTP chapter, Shunsui shows a bit of fear towards Unohana or he at least did not want to get on her bad side.
    allow me to teach you some interesting trivial (cit. Kisame in vol.54 ), kyoraku said so in the TBTP when they were talkin about the ones who had been captains for over a century, that is he,ukitake and unohana-senpai. At that time,she must have been stronger than him, and I think she was 2 years ago as well,since in the databook Kubo put her above him (despite being much weaker than aizen and Yamamoto). However,she is very old,she was already a captain 1000 years ago, in the war against juha Bach. Instead, kyoraku is still young, yama told him about that war by saying "a long time ago", therefore he shouldn't be even 800 (I guess he is around 400-500). But remember that they get stronger: kyoraku told stark that in a century hitsugaya will have surpassed him, therefore it's very likely kyoraku has overcome retsu too . Isshin could keep up with aizen,though, that makes him above everyone,imo

  6. #36
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Satellite of Love
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,447
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    @ Torran
    No, I do not think I am making things up, that's not how I roll (on forums anyway). When Aizen was fighting against Isshin, Isshin began to notice that Aizen's moves weren't as good as they were at the beginning of the match.

    Isshin: What's wrong? / You're getting less and less sharp. // At your limit already?*

    At face value this line could be taken as Isshin being stronger than Aizen to the point of being able to tire out the traitorous shinigami, who is a monster in his own right, and push him into a corner. I would find that plausible if Aizen hadn't said the following line about his soul:

    Aizen: ...Yes. / It would seem so. // I have reached my limit. // As a Shinigami, that is.*

    and then continuing on the next page with:

    Aizen: My soul... // ...is being reformed.*

    So seeing as how shinigami are basically made of reishi, this would mean that Aizen's body was basically rebuilding itself during his fight with Isshin. So, along with changing the entire aspect of being he was also physically fighting against Isshin, which I would imagine strained his body even more, resulting in the drop in performance. Aizen noticed this effect as well which is why he knew what the Hogyoku was doing at this point in time. Also think back to when it was first revealed that Aizen had merged with the Hogyoku. After he is hit with Ichigo's GT, we see that his body had began to heal his wound, which would mean that by that point his body had already been changed by the Hogyoku to a degree. I could be looking way to deep into this, but this is why I think that Isshin isn't on Aizen's and his fight against him isn't a good representation of his strength.

    @mattiaildivino
    Please stop referring to the Databook as a comparison between strength, that is not what it is measuring.

    There is that possibility, but seeing as they were already considered Elder Captains at that point, I see no reason for Shunsui or Ukitake to have an increase in power that quick. Unlike Hitsugaya and Gin, Shunsui and Ukitake have never been referred to as geniuses. All that is known is that they were both trained by Yama and were the first Captains to graduate the academy. Hitsugaya on the other hand is a genius so his progression is unnatural, which is why he became the youngest Captain in S.S. history. Shunsui even mentions that when he is speaking to Starrk and which is why he believed Hitsugaya could possibly surpass him in a century.

    Unohana on the other hand, like Yama, were a part of what is considered to be the strongest generation of Shinigami in history. Simply put, before Yamamoto's death she was most likely the second strongest Shinigami in S.S. To put it simply, the way Kubo has built up her reputation, I find it hard to believe that she is weaker than Shunsui and to that extent Isshin. I even think she would give Aizen trouble like Yamamoto would have.

    Isshin shouldn't stand a chance against Unohana. From what we've currently seen and heard, she should outclass him in swordsmanship and she should be able to heal herself from whatever is thrown at her. Unless Isshin has Zaraki level reflexes (which is basically why he won against her in the first place), I don't see him winning against her.

    *Translated by Cnet128
    Last edited by eefrit; June 08, 2013 at 05:44 PM.

  7. #37
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Venice
    Country
    Italy
    Age
    21
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Actually, aizen was getting slower because he was feeling the effects of his fights versus all the captains and vizards (that was in fact the reason of him leaving orihime in the HM, as he stated himself: to avoid facing all the captains). I like your argumentation, but you shouldn't compare yamamoto's dangerousness to unohana's: aizen clearly made them aware of the fact the only one above him (in sheer strength) was yama,that's why he dealt with his powers by having prepared everything to counter/seal them. Contrariwise, when unohana arrived he didn't shake at all, nor did he when retsu had found him outside the chamber of the 46. Being as strong as aizen makes isshin ways above unohana,imo.
    On a side note: I agree with Jorge for what concerns isshin being slashed. I think it was aizen too,since it wouldn't make much sense showing him whereas the culprit was tosen (notwithstanding, as you say, aizen is behind everything ecc.) And it's not true that aizen never lifted a finger: he was the one who slashed harribel once arrived. We can understand why isshin was slashed by aizen himself: the former was a captain so strong that aizen understood he himself would have to deal with isshin.

  8. #38
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Opportunist traveler.
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    397
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    @ Torran
    No, I do not think I am making things up, that's not how I roll (on forums anyway). When Aizen was fighting against Isshin, Isshin began to notice that Aizen's moves weren't as good as they were at the beginning of the match.

    Isshin: What's wrong? / You're getting less and less sharp. // At your limit already?*

    At face value this line could be taken as Isshin being stronger than Aizen to the point of being able to tire out the traitorous shinigami, who is a monster in his own right, and push him into a corner. I would find that plausible if Aizen hadn't said the following line about his soul:

    Aizen: ...Yes. / It would seem so. // I have reached my limit. // As a Shinigami, that is.*

    and then continuing on the next page with:

    Aizen: My soul... // ...is being reformed.*

    So seeing as how shinigami are basically made of reishi, this would mean that Aizen's body was basically rebuilding itself during his fight with Isshin. So, along with changing the entire aspect of being he was also physically fighting against Isshin, which I would imagine strained his body even more, resulting in the drop in performance. Aizen noticed this effect as well which is why he knew what the Hogyoku was doing at this point in time. Also think back to when it was first revealed that Aizen had merged with the Hogyoku. After he is hit with Ichigo's GT, we see that his body had began to heal his wound, which would mean that by that point his body had already been changed by the Hogyoku to a degree. I could be looking way to deep into this, but this is why I think that Isshin isn't on Aizen's and his fight against him isn't a good representation of his strength.
    That's borderline grasping at straws. Ju-Ni's translation, which was usually one of the most trustworthy, says that Aizen will begin to undergo a transformation, and it makes a lot more sense in the future because it was until the very end of the chapter that the change took effect. Aizen had been doing fine before, and by what I said above he wasn't affected by the Hogyoku during his fight with Isshin.

    Another thing about the Hogyoku is that it always kicked in whenever Aizen was under pressure, excluding this one situation with Isshin, there was the team up between Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi that split Aizen in two, Gin making him a new hole and Ichigo slashing him hard. It just makes more sense that it changed Aizen after Isshin overpowered him in the fight.

    You can't take characters bluffing and talking big at face value, because they do it all the time. Aizen was struggling to breath but Isshin was visibly exhausted too. Remember that this was one of the highest level fights yet between two Shinigami with absurd strength, and shooting each other through buildings and city sized Kido blasts was common place, and the fight had been going on for a while too.

    Trying to use the argument that Aizen was not at his best during his fight with Isshin based on a mistranslation taken at face value is just gravely misguided.

    As for Unohana, she has shown two excel at two things and two things only: Swordsmanship and Kaido, nothing else. When she said "strongest" it was in context of sword skill and battle readiness. She was unrivaled (except for Zaraki of course) in sword fighting and reflexes, and she should be able to beat Aizen and Yamamoto in a sword fight, but that doesn't mean she was stronger physically, more skilled, more intelligent, faster or better at Kido in general than them. The same applies to Zaraki, he clearly improved as a swordsman during his fight with Unohana and recovered his natural talent, agility and reflex, but all of his other skills remain low and would never be able to compete with Aizen or Yamamoto who had mastered every aspect of Shinigami arts (and were a hell of a lot smarter and flexible).
    Last edited by Torran; June 08, 2013 at 08:51 PM.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  9. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
    Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  10. #39
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Country
    Nigeria
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,318
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    That's borderline grasping at straws. Ju-Ni's translation, which was usually one of the most trustworthy, says that Aizen will begin to undergo a transformation, and it makes a lot more sense in the future because it was until the very end of the chapter that the change took effect. Aizen had been doing fine before, and by what I said above he wasn't affected by the Hogyoku during his fight with Isshin.

    Another thing about the Hogyoku is that it always kicked in whenever Aizen was under pressure, excluding this one situation with Isshin, there was the team up between Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi that split Aizen in two, Gin making him a new hole and Ichigo slashing him hard. It just makes more sense that it changed Aizen after Isshin overpowered him in the fight.

    You can't take characters bluffing and talking big at face value, because they do it all the time. Aizen was struggling to breath but Isshin was visibly exhausted too. Remember that this was one of the highest level fights yet between two Shinigami with absurd strength, and shooting each other through buildings and city sized Kido blasts was common place, and the fight had been going on for a while too.

    Trying to use the argument that Aizen was not at his best during his fight with Isshin based on a mistranslation taken at face value is just gravely misguided.

    As for Unohana, she has shown two excel at two things and two things only: Swordsmanship and Kaido, nothing else. When she said "strongest" it was in context of sword skill and battle readiness. She was unrivaled (except for Zaraki of course) in sword fighting and reflexes, and she should be able to beat Aizen and Yamamoto in a sword fight, but that doesn't mean she was stronger physically, more skilled, more intelligent, faster or better at Kido in general than them. The same applies to Zaraki, he clearly improved as a swordsman during his fight with Unohana and recovered his natural talent, agility and reflex, but all of his other skills remain low and would never be able to compete with Aizen or Yamamoto who had mastered every aspect of Shinigami arts (and were a hell of a lot smarter and flexible).
    In addition to this particular line I would like to add a little something.

    The fanbase or any person should realise that individual character's statements must be carefully analysed before it is considered truth.

    For instance, In the SS arc Byakuya made certain to us that he only demonstrated the Senkei aspect of his bankai to 2 individuals. http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-12.html
    The 1st remains unknown & the 2nd was Ichigo.

    Another good example was Gin who kept the secret poisonous feature of his bankai hidden from everybody until...

    When certain characters declare their superiority to others regarding something particular, it is absolutely crucial to check & analyses their words carefully. Learn to not always believe what you hear without firm evidence of it's reality. Check the character that is "supposedly inferior" (according to the "supposedly superior's own judgment") & form an objective conclusion regarding that subject.

    Aizen said he is the strongest shinigami. How in the world does he know that & in what context is he talking about? Find out!

    Yama said to Aizen, "no shinigami born in 1000 years is stronger than him". No shinigami is stronger how? & Again, how in the world does he know that especially when it's evident that character's hide their strengths? Find out!

    As you can see, these two individuals declaration clash when it's being look at from a general perceptive so you ought to find out if you can trust what they are saying. Find out through verification of independent & rational process of research of fact gathering before believing their words otherwise, you are behaving like a drone. But if you can't gather the facts, leave the subject entirely.

    Don't be the drone, rather be the critical thinker.
    Last edited by Kay3795; June 08, 2013 at 10:25 PM.

  11. #40
    ~ Forum Fixer ~ 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Miyagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Country
    Winterfell
    Age
    28
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,290
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Isshin vs Unohana

    Result

    Kurosaki Isshin: 10
    Unohana Retsu: 20

    Unohana Retsu advances to the next round.

    You can discuss the results in Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread.

Thread Closed
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts