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When did kyoraku make that statement about yama's bankai? I must have missed it.
Scratch that. While Shunsui has been shown to fear her, that statement about Yamamoto's bankai apparently has never been stated. Either someone took some liberties in a translation that I read long ago or it was stated in the anime and I got it mixed up, which I believe I did unfortunately. But in first TBTP chapter, Shunsui shows a bit of fear towards Unohana or he at least did not want to get on her bad side.
Since when was Aizen limited by the Hogyoku to the point you're claiming his performance against Isshin was not the best? I either missed it or you're making things up.
No, I do not think I am making things up, that's not how I roll (on forums anyway). When Aizen was fighting against Isshin, Isshin began to notice that Aizen's moves weren't as good as they were at the beginning of the match.
Isshin: What's wrong? / You're getting less and less sharp. // At your limit already?*
At face value this line could be taken as Isshin being stronger than Aizen to the point of being able to tire out the traitorous shinigami, who is a monster in his own right, and push him into a corner. I would find that plausible if Aizen hadn't said the following line about his soul:
Aizen: ...Yes. / It would seem so. // I have reached my limit. // As a Shinigami, that is.*
and then continuing on the next page with:
Aizen: My soul... // ...is being reformed.*
So seeing as how shinigami are basically made of reishi, this would mean that Aizen's body was basically rebuilding itself during his fight with Isshin. So, along with changing the entire aspect of being he was also physically fighting against Isshin, which I would imagine strained his body even more, resulting in the drop in performance. Aizen noticed this effect as well which is why he knew what the Hogyoku was doing at this point in time. Also think back to when it was first revealed that Aizen had merged with the Hogyoku. After he is hit with Ichigo's GT, we see that his body had began to heal his wound, which would mean that by that point his body had already been changed by the Hogyoku to a degree. I could be looking way to deep into this, but this is why I think that Isshin isn't on Aizen's and his fight against him isn't a good representation of his strength.
Please stop referring to the Databook as a comparison between strength, that is not what it is measuring.
There is that possibility, but seeing as they were already considered Elder Captains at that point, I see no reason for Shunsui or Ukitake to have an increase in power that quick. Unlike Hitsugaya and Gin, Shunsui and Ukitake have never been referred to as geniuses. All that is known is that they were both trained by Yama and were the first Captains to graduate the academy. Hitsugaya on the other hand is a genius so his progression is unnatural, which is why he became the youngest Captain in S.S. history. Shunsui even mentions that when he is speaking to Starrk and which is why he believed Hitsugaya could possibly surpass him in a century.
Unohana on the other hand, like Yama, were a part of what is considered to be the strongest generation of Shinigami in history. Simply put, before Yamamoto's death she was most likely the second strongest Shinigami in S.S. To put it simply, the way Kubo has built up her reputation, I find it hard to believe that she is weaker than Shunsui and to that extent Isshin. I even think she would give Aizen trouble like Yamamoto would have.
Isshin shouldn't stand a chance against Unohana. From what we've currently seen and heard, she should outclass him in swordsmanship and she should be able to heal herself from whatever is thrown at her. Unless Isshin has Zaraki level reflexes (which is basically why he won against her in the first place), I don't see him winning against her.
*Translated by Cnet128
Last edited by eefrit; June 08, 2013 at 05:44 PM.
Actually, aizen was getting slower because he was feeling the effects of his fights versus all the captains and vizards (that was in fact the reason of him leaving orihime in the HM, as he stated himself: to avoid facing all the captains). I like your argumentation, but you shouldn't compare yamamoto's dangerousness to unohana's: aizen clearly made them aware of the fact the only one above him (in sheer strength) was yama,that's why he dealt with his powers by having prepared everything to counter/seal them. Contrariwise, when unohana arrived he didn't shake at all, nor did he when retsu had found him outside the chamber of the 46. Being as strong as aizen makes isshin ways above unohana,imo.
On a side note: I agree with Jorge for what concerns isshin being slashed. I think it was aizen too,since it wouldn't make much sense showing him whereas the culprit was tosen (notwithstanding, as you say, aizen is behind everything ecc.) And it's not true that aizen never lifted a finger: he was the one who slashed harribel once arrived. We can understand why isshin was slashed by aizen himself: the former was a captain so strong that aizen understood he himself would have to deal with isshin.
says that Aizen will begin to undergo a transformation, and it makes a lot more sense in the future because it was until the very end of the chapter that the change took effect. Aizen had been doing fine before, and by what I said above he wasn't affected by the Hogyoku during his fight with Isshin.
Another thing about the Hogyoku is that it always kicked in whenever Aizen was under pressure, excluding this one situation with Isshin, there was the team up between Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi that split Aizen in two, Gin making him a new hole and Ichigo slashing him hard. It just makes more sense that it changed Aizen after Isshin overpowered him in the fight.
You can't take characters bluffing and talking big at face value, because they do it all the time. Aizen was struggling to breath but Isshin was visibly exhausted too. Remember that this was one of the highest level fights yet between two Shinigami with absurd strength, and shooting each other through buildings and city sized Kido blasts was common place, and the fight had been going on for a while too.
Trying to use the argument that Aizen was not at his best during his fight with Isshin based on a mistranslation taken at face value is just gravely misguided.
As for Unohana, she has shown two excel at two things and two things only: Swordsmanship and Kaido, nothing else. When she said "strongest" it was in context of sword skill and battle readiness. She was unrivaled (except for Zaraki of course) in sword fighting and reflexes, and she should be able to beat Aizen and Yamamoto in a sword fight, but that doesn't mean she was stronger physically, more skilled, more intelligent, faster or better at Kido in general than them. The same applies to Zaraki, he clearly improved as a swordsman during his fight with Unohana and recovered his natural talent, agility and reflex, but all of his other skills remain low and would never be able to compete with Aizen or Yamamoto who had mastered every aspect of Shinigami arts (and were a hell of a lot smarter and flexible).
Last edited by Torran; June 08, 2013 at 08:51 PM.
The fanbase or any person should realise that individual character's statements must be carefully analysed before it is considered truth.
For instance, In the SS arc Byakuya made certain to us that he only demonstrated the Senkei aspect of his bankai to 2 individuals. http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-12.html
The 1st remains unknown & the 2nd was Ichigo.
Another good example was Gin who kept the secret poisonous feature of his bankai hidden from everybody until...
When certain characters declare their superiority to others regarding something particular, it is absolutely crucial to check & analyses their words carefully. Learn to not always believe what you hear without firm evidence of it's reality. Check the character that is "supposedly inferior" (according to the "supposedly superior's own judgment") & form an objective conclusion regarding that subject.
Aizen said he is the strongest shinigami. How in the world does he know that & in what context is he talking about? Find out!
Yama said to Aizen, "no shinigami born in 1000 years is stronger than him". No shinigami is stronger how? & Again, how in the world does he know that especially when it's evident that character's hide their strengths? Find out!
As you can see, these two individuals declaration clash when it's being look at from a general perceptive so you ought to find out if you can trust what they are saying. Find out through verification of independent & rational process of research of fact gathering before believing their words otherwise, you are behaving like a drone. But if you can't gather the facts, leave the subject entirely.
Don't be the drone, rather be the critical thinker.
Last edited by Kay3795; June 08, 2013 at 10:25 PM.
Kurosaki Isshin: 10
Unohana Retsu: 20
Unohana Retsu advances to the next round.
You can discuss the results in Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread.