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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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27. You may not vote on this poll
  • Barragan Luisenbarn

    23 85.19%
  • Kaname Tōsen

    4 14.81%
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Thread: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

  1. #1
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity MiyamotoMusashi's Avatar
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    Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen


    Don't forget to read the rules first before you proceed. You can click on character names below pictures to go to their Bleach wiki article for more information.

    ROUND 2

    Welcome to the Round 2 of championship fights of the second Bleach Tournament!
    Here are the contestants who will battle against each other to advance to the next round in the championship bracket:



  2. #2
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner lyght's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    Barragan wins IMO Tosen only has close-mid range attacks and aging would affect all of them.

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    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    barragan's power is too HAX, Tosen is not strong enough to counter its slowness, not even with hollowification.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    Can sound even age? I've got to think about that a bit more, Barragan might (and probably will) win this though.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    I don't see any possible way for Tousen to win this match...
    His Reiatsu isn't stronger than Barragan's and Barragan's ability is too strong for him to counter, thus his only hope is to backstab Barragan or to attack him, while he would be sleeping...

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member xXAshisogiJizoXx's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    Sound does lose amplitude over time, so it ages. Whether or not that holds in Kubo's spiritual science, no clue. But even if it hits, while it was strong enough to break Koma's bankai, Barragan is a tough mofo even if he does get hit. And that sound move has a huge telegraph, so hitting it more than once isn't too likely (assuming it DOESNT age).

    Without broken kido teleportation, its very hard to hurt Barragan. Would need to both restrain him (very few of which barragan can't age), have an overwhelmingly powerful energy attack, and even then, he can tank it, and was at his most dangerous after being hit by Soifon's nuke.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    Barragan seems to have the advantage in this match-up but I wonder if Tousen can use his bankai and stab Barragan in the head. If he can also use his mask, it makes the task even easier. Can Barragan age the walls of Enma Kōrogi and protect himself from Tousen's attack on time?

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member xXAshisogiJizoXx's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    Barragan seems to have the advantage in this match-up but I wonder if Tousen can use his bankai and stab Barragan in the head. If he can also use his mask, it makes the task even easier. Can Barragan age the walls of Enma Kōrogi and protect himself from Tousen's attack on time?
    Well, we know Barragan aged Soi's missile, so Bankai's can be added to the long list of things that age. Considering Respira's speed and the area it can cover, I don't see it lasting long if Barragan knows something is up and goes ape shit with respira like he did when Soi's nuke hit him. And speaking of that, his head was partially blown open, so a stab probably won't kill him. It will just alert him that he is in danger and he's gonna react.

    Lastly, Barragan doesn't just have respira, but he also has senescencia, which is what turned that rock Omaeda kicked to dust, as well as everything that was near him when he released. While it doesn't spread the way respira does, Tousen can't afford to spend time near Barragan without dying.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I don't see any possible way for Tousen to win this match...
    Just because you "don't see any possible way" doesn't mean a way doesn't exist. A little enlightenment is all that it takes for an individual to start seeing many things he had yet to witness before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    His Reiatsu isn't stronger than Barragan's
    Can you give evidence of this assertion pls?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    and Barragan's ability is too strong for him to counter,
    Why do you believe "Barragan's ability is too strong for him to counter"? Pls explain. I believe that two or more parties exchanging ideas would be a benefit in gaining greater insights into things as opposed to one person by himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    only hope is to backstab Barragan or to attack him, while he would be sleeping...
    Why is that Tousen's only hope?
    Last edited by Kay3795; June 09, 2013 at 02:29 PM.

  10. #10
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    Now that I think about it, Aizen, Gin, and Tousen managed to survive their encounter with Barragan somehow so Respira can't be that unbeatable or hax.

    I don't think Shinigami Tousen has the skill set needed to take on Barragan. We've seen with Soifon and Hachi that both Bankai and Kido (which he hasn't shown much of) can be aged, although the specifics of Tousen's Bankai might be different than Soifon's seeing as it appears to just be shadows or some type of unique spiritual energy. If it is shadows, I wouldn't think it could age, but if it is spiritual energy it most likely will. But even then, Bankai would most likely make things worse for Tousen seeing as how he would be in an enclosed space with Respira and Barragan could easily go wild and release it everywhere. So if Tousen would like to win this way, he'd have to go straight for Bankai when the match started and go for a head shot while Barragan was still unreleased.

    Tousen's best bet to win would be to resurrect. An enchantment in speed, power, number of ranged moves and most importantly high speed regeneration will vastly increase his chances of winning. xXAshisogiJizoXx mentioned that sound does lose amplitude over time, but I would think that Tousen would be able to create a strong enough vibrations to at least block Respira similar to how Hachi blocked it during his fight. To win, Tousen would have to create a vibration strong enough to reach Barragan while aiming for his head. I'm not sure if Respira effects Cero either so that might also heighten Tousen's chance as well. If none of that works he is most likely going to have to pull a Hachi. With his high speed regeneration, he will have to sacrifice a limb and speed towards Barragan and attempt to touch him with the decaying limb.

    At the least, a resurrected Tousen can fight to a stand still with his speed and his regeneration abilities.

  11. #11
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    Kay3795
    Well, if you want to discuss this fight - then discuss. If you want to troll, then I would suggest you go somewhere else, since I don't really need your ironical tone.

    Quote Quote:
    Can you give evidence of this assertion pls?
    Tousen as a Shinigami was one oif the weakest. Kenpachi easily managed to take both him and Komamura, while they were in Shikai and still laughed. While the same Kenpachi barely managed to tie with Ichigo who at that time didn't even know Bankai.
    After that Tousen... Well, he became considerably stronger, but he still barely managed to win against Komamura (he couldn't win due to Hisagi's headshot) and was killed by Hisagi. So I seriously doubt we can compare him to the third strongest Espada.

    Quote Quote:
    Why do you believe "Barragan's ability is too strong for him to counter"? Pls explain. I believe that two or more parties exchanging ideas would be a benefit in gaining greater insights into things as opposed to one person by himself.
    Again, if you want to troll, please go somewhere else. If you want a discussion, then try to suggest something as well and not lecture others.
    If we talk about Barragan's ability as it was already suggested in tons of discussion it slows time and manages to rot and degrade practically everything (Reiatsu based attacks from Zans, Kidou, parts of bodies) and it also makes Barragan quite fast, since he managed to practically be as fast as Soi Fong.
    So in order to counter such an ability you need to at least be a Reiatsu monster as Ichigo, Yama, Aizen.

    Quote Quote:
    Why is that Tousen's only hope?
    If you see another one, then suggest it please.

    eefrit
    Quote Quote:
    Now that I think about it, Aizen, Gin, and Tousen managed to survive their encounter with Barragan somehow so Respira can't be that unbeatable or hax.
    Well, it seems that it was clearly shown in the manga what happened in their first encounter. Aizen used Kyoka Suigetsu and killed entire Barragan's army and that shocked Barragan.
    Also it seems that Respira isn't Barragan's own power. It seems it was given to Barragan by Aizen via Hougioku, when he made him an Arrancar.

  12. #12
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member xXAshisogiJizoXx's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    Now that I think about it, Aizen, Gin, and Tousen managed to survive their encounter with Barragan somehow so Respira can't be that unbeatable or hax.

    I don't think Shinigami Tousen has the skill set needed to take on Barragan. We've seen with Soifon and Hachi that both Bankai and Kido (which he hasn't shown much of) can be aged, although the specifics of Tousen's Bankai might be different than Soifon's seeing as it appears to just be shadows or some type of unique spiritual energy. If it is shadows, I wouldn't think it could age, but if it is spiritual energy it most likely will. But even then, Bankai would most likely make things worse for Tousen seeing as how he would be in an enclosed space with Respira and Barragan could easily go wild and release it everywhere. So if Tousen would like to win this way, he'd have to go straight for Bankai when the match started and go for a head shot while Barragan was still unreleased.

    Tousen's best bet to win would be to resurrect. An enchantment in speed, power, number of ranged moves and most importantly high speed regeneration will vastly increase his chances of winning. xXAshisogiJizoXx mentioned that sound does lose amplitude over time, but I would think that Tousen would be able to create a strong enough vibrations to at least block Respira similar to how Hachi blocked it during his fight. To win, Tousen would have to create a vibration strong enough to reach Barragan while aiming for his head. I'm not sure if Respira effects Cero either so that might also heighten Tousen's chance as well. If none of that works he is most likely going to have to pull a Hachi. With his high speed regeneration, he will have to sacrifice a limb and speed towards Barragan and attempt to touch him with the decaying limb.

    At the least, a resurrected Tousen can fight to a stand still with his speed and his regeneration abilities.
    Well, Aizen just out-haxed Baraggan. Against KS, Baraggan can't do anything, and he knew it, so he yielded.

    The idea of Tousen's bankai being shadows is interesting, but I see it as a construct due to its bursting when Kenpachi beat Tousen, and thus can be aged. The use of sound to hold back the respira is also a clever idea, and something that def helps Tousen's odds. The regeneration is only good for his limbs though. If respira touches his body or head, he can't just amputate and regenerate.

    It's def not impossible to get past the constant defense of senescencia, it is still hard and not to mention a powerful offense in its own, but you would have to get past the active defense of respira aging whatever attack is coming his way, plus Baraggan's own insane durability and capacity to live with a partial head, no organs to assault, no tendons to cut, etc. And not to mention what it took to damage baraggan was a contained nuke, and nothing Tousen used seems anywhere near as overwhelmingly powerful as that. He would have to hit Baraggan so many times with that sound, its just another factor against Tousens favor.

    Aside from all that, Baraggan is fast and strong. I think the idea that resureccion tousen can run circles around him, and that baraggan can't answer tousen physically should Tousens regeneration negate senescencia, is misguided. Tousen CAN win, but he would have to have the best fight of his life to do it, while Baraggan just has to not be a total idiot to win.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    The idea of sound waves losing amplitude over time is a bit odd - wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they lose amplitude over distance? The time wouldn't be a factor, therefore so long as the distance is short - they would not age.
    Also, can someone help me (I don't have the manga on me at the moment - and am a tad busy [or am meant to be]) but did Barragan age the explosion of Soifon's bankai, or just the missile? If just the missile (to make it explode early), then this suggests that he can not age the explosion - which kind of makes sense, as explosions (like sound) don't really 'age'. This would also explain why containing him in the box worked so well - as even if he does age the missile and make it explode early, the pressure wave from the nuke has nowhere else to go...

    hmm... tough fight. Will see what others say before I decide for sure.
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    To add to the discussion...
    Tousen doesn't really have any serious attack that can penetrate Barragan's defense and actually injure him besides his Double Cero in his Resureccion. Apart from this attack all others seemed to weak to injure Barragan.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Barragan vs Tōsen

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Tousen as a Shinigami was one oif the weakest. Kenpachi easily managed to take both him and Komamura, while they were in Shikai and still laughed. While the same Kenpachi barely managed to tie with Ichigo who at that time didn't even know Bankai.
    After that Tousen... Well, he became considerably stronger, but he still barely managed to win against Komamura (he couldn't win due to Hisagi's headshot) and was killed by Hisagi. So I seriously doubt we can compare him to the third strongest Espada.
    I decided for the most part to not take part in this popularity contest tournament, but this, what you just said is plain wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Tousen as a Shinigami was one oif the weakest.
    From the get go and this is already a conjecture-a-thon. By the sounds of it you're dead set on Tousen being one of the weakest based on your heavily misguided interpretation of what you're calling evidence here. If you want to continue thinking that Tousen was in any way weak or one of the weakest captains, then you better rethink your argument because I'm about to mercilessly destroy your claim here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Kenpachi easily managed to take both him and Komamura
    First of all, Kenpachi never "easily managed to take both" of them at the same time, because there was no battle at all, at any moment, but for the one time the did in fact attack at once and were both blocked, and what follows is that in a moment of surprise Tousen gave Kenpachi a chance to kick him, which made Komamura worry for his friend and gave Kenpachi another chance to throw him to the ground. And that's all there is to "taking on two captains at once". The very next thing that happens is that Tousen gives a monologue, uses his Bankai and the rest you know.

    Now, you could argue that what he did to Komamura is a proof of strength, and while it is, it's nothing special because captains can throw opponents several city blocks away with kicks and punches, and stop opponents several times their size effortlessly, as well as carrying several hundred kilos without a sweat. Ichigo for example stopped Zero Yammi's punch... Komamura did what Kenpachi did to him only to a much bigger opponent, and several other examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    while they were in Shikai and still laughed
    You say this as if he actually managed to either block or brush their attacks, but he didn't. He was nearly crushed by Komamura's Tengen, which he dodged just in time, and I know he did dodge because Komamura's attack cut the tower they were in all the way down vertically, and left a huge hole also seen here and here, and made even bigger by Tousen's attack here. If Kenpachi got hit by it, he would be at the bottom of the tower among the debris, otherwise he wouldn't have been hit by Tousen's attack. When the dust finally cleared, Kenpachi was still at the top of the tower with them with the hole just behind him, so it means he did the smart thing and got out of the way, something even Aizen did because getting hit by Tengen is like getting hit by a bullet train. By the way, Komamura's reiatsu is strong enough to destroy the ground around him, without even touching, just saying because you look down on Komamura too.

    Following Komamura's attack, Tousen used his second form to shoot blades in every direction, partially because he didn't want to miss and because there was a lot of dust, so it's not possible that ALL of the blades could have hit Kenpachi unless he was actively trying to catch every blade with his body by moving around. In the end, only a few hit Kenpachi, but they did hit him hard. Back to the main point, it means Kenpachi was unable to block or dodge, and the result was several blades sunk many centimeters deep all over his back and shoulders.

    You should be aware that such a deep cut is nothing to laugh about, with the danger of bleeding out from all the nerves, muscles and blood streams cut. It's also painful as hell if you ever had something that thick sunk in your flesh. What Kenpachi did by laughing is called a bluff, because he's crazy and apparently has unlimited blood and his body doesn't need muscles to move. He was in pain, he was bleeding all over, and he failed to keep up to his word that they wouldn't make him sweat, he failed to evade their attack and was severely injured in the process. Another captains would never allow something like that to happen, they value themselves way to much to give their opponent an opportunity to injure them so badly.

    And I'm going to keep the part about their Bankais short. Kenpachi was completely helpless against Tousen. No, he did not "beat" the Bankai, he did not destroy it, he did not overpower it's effect, all he could do was wait for Tousen to cut him to move in the opposite direction. In the end he couldn't even figure what to do, so he pretty much gambled his life to know for sure where Tousen was, and the only way was to have his sword deep within him. And to make it worse for you, he slashed Tousen very hard, and you can see in the way the sword is drawn with a lot of speed and weight, not once, but twice, a direct hit, and didn't even cut him in half. And there's more, he couldn't even cut Komamura.

    Komamura's part is shorter, he never actually fought Kenpachi with his Bankai, because they were interrupted, and shortly after Komamura left, with no visible injuries when he was seen again.

    Tousen didn't get too many things to do, but he did some impressive things, cutting off Grimmjow's arm faster than he could defend himself, and using a chantless Hadou to disintegrate the arm.

    There's also the important yet widely overlooked issue that there are more types of power and strength than physical strength. Tousen's specialty was to use his sense-numbing Zanpakuto to beat others. He may not be the strongest physically, but he was well capable of taking several captains at once with his Bankai as a 5th seated officer. Yes, a seated officer that was so good at his job that achieved Bankai and several other skills 100 years before the current timeline.

    And there's more, one of the reasons Aizen gave about recruiting Tousen was because of his blindness, and because he completely trusted Tousen as a subordinate, making him do things that could have easily ruined his plans if they went wrong, and some of the tasks he gave Tousen was trusting him with his life. Also included in that page is Tousen nearly killed Shinji with a speed attack from the front.

    I hope this cleared it up, because it took forever and looking for every page is frustrating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    After that Tousen... Well, he became considerably stronger, but he still barely managed to win against Komamura
    He didn't barely, he completely annihilated Komamura. He was blocking Tengen with ease, was faster and agile, whacking him around with immense strength, cutting his Bankai, survived a direct hit with relatively less damage, and Hollowfication increases damage resistance. Tousen's words make it sound like he or anybody else would have died without the power boost. After Hollowfying into a giant fly he stopped Komamura's Bankai singlehandedly, cracking it even, and used a sound attack so powerful that it broke through Myou's thick metal armor all the way to the rib cage, nearly killing Komamura. At this point Hisagi killing him is irrelevant, because it was thanks to Tousen's lack of attention, not lack of strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    So I seriously doubt we can compare him to the third strongest Espada.
    Love was smacking Starrk around with ease with his "failed" Hollowfication. Tousen should be able to do more with his full Hollowfication.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    So in order to counter such an ability you need to at least be a Reiatsu monster as Ichigo, Yama, Aizen.
    And at last, you're saying that it could be possible to counter Respira, even though it's a power of time and not a power of reiatsu. Respira was able to age Kido including Hachigen's space-time tricks, there's no way reiatsu alone is going to be able to counter Respira.

    With all this, Tousen is very well capable of defeating Barragan, as long as he plays it safe and keeps his distance while waiting for an opening.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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