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Thread: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

  1. #16
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    I have asked the same question before.... is enhancement the use of basic nen techniques or something that works independently from them and strengthens them? For me it has always been confusing because the manga has generally been ambiguous on the subject.

    I mean, take gon's rock and uvo's punch. They are the exact same thing at large and their techniques are simple uses of ko which basically everyone can learn. Gon does have a boost to his ko due to it being his hatsu and all (knuckle explained that because of gon's determination and whatnot gon got extra nen for rock during their fight). Perhaps this is evidence that reinforcement does not work independently from basic nen techniques and reinforcement in fact is specialized application of such techniques which most don't use. Then again ren or even ken were never actually called reinforcement per say, they simply were called basic techniques. More so, we saw killua and gon training at the same time and they progressed through ren and ken at the same rate even though their affinities would suggest gon should have had a significant edge. Perhaps reinforcement starts applying so to speak after a certain amount of nen has been applied or something. Ren or ken being simply violent releases of aura don't apply to enhancement because they are not really focusing nen anywhere. On the other hand once you get to ko which is a concentration of all the nen into a single spot or perhaps enhancing objects with aura you need to start talking about how efficient you are at it. So basically ren, ken, shu, gyo and ryu are basic techniques which anyone can use at the same efficiency but in turn more specialized techniques which require a greater concentration of nen are considered enhancement. Just my take on this.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    kkck- I think you are right on this. Ren/Ken are just releasing the Nen energy but using it on your body or an object is enhancement. You must use Ren/Ken and Gyo/Ryu on your body and that is reflected how well you can use those to enhance yourself.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    My understanding is that reinforcement users simply have (typically) more nen available than users of other schools. So they have inherently greater reserves as well as greater moment-to-moment output. Improvement as a reinforcement user probably takes the form of an increase in output/reserves, and i'm guessing even the increase is easier to attain the users of other nen schools.

    This does generally mean that their Ten, Ren, Gyo, Kou and Ken are pretty strong. Furthermore, Uvo described "zetsu" as a reinforcement technique as well, so these guys are also (counter-intuitively) good at hiding their presence as well.

    There are also "reinforcement hatsus" such as healing - something reinforcement users naturally have an affinity for.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Every Nen user can use their Nen to make their bodies (or an object) stronger. Actually they have to, unless they never fight at all. Enhancers are simply better at doing that. For example (assuming Gon and Killua are equally talented and knowing they spent the same time training), Killua can Enhance is body but not as well as Gon.
    Enhancers don't have any more aura than others, they're just naturally better at using it to Enhance objects, which means other Nen users need to use more aura than them to have the same power.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    So from this I learned that you need to first power up like in Ren then use Ken/Ryu/Gyo/Ren on your body or object. I just used to get confused if Ko is Gyo on a fist or something and Zetsu on the rest that its already enhancement when you just use the basics. You know what? This still confuses me! I think its like this:

    Ren- Power up yourself and release all your aura
    Ken- Use Ren all over your body to boost offense and defense all over but its not focused or strong
    Gyo- Power up a certain body part more than another or all others
    Ryu- Adjust Gyo by increasing/decreasing Nen on your body

    But I'm still confused. Ko requires to use Zetsu on other parts but why is that needed if Ren alone is not on your body? Just use Ren on one part of your body so the other has Ten.

    So maybe enhancers just have stronger Nen and when they use their Ren their whole body is stronger because their Ren is stronger?

    So the questions left are truly: Do enhancers have stronger Nen than other types or only stronger enhancement abilities? If its the latter then you need to use Nen on your body after you power up.

    So I think when you use Nen it is stronger than other Nen types but it also depends on your talent and other things. If two people had the same talent and other things but different Nen types, when used Ren, which is already on the body I think, the Enhancer is much stronger.
    Last edited by ssunlimited; June 11, 2013 at 01:14 PM.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Way back Kurapika's master was explaining how as Materialization all he can ever do is strength himself to 160 (100 base + 60 aura), while a Reinforcement user can do up to 200 (100 + 100) and he will take serious damage for blocking a 200 hit even at his max output (160), which is why Reinforcement is a tough matchup for him.

    This has to apply to all basic technique, as in if both use Ken or Ko the Materialization still takes serious damage. You can't talk about special modifiers because anything user A can do the user B could do too. So what happens is that you get a Reinforcement might be able to block a Ko with just Ken when fighting a Materialization user. And that is a ridiculous advantage, since if you block a Ko with just Ken, then you can easily counterattack and finish off the enemy.

    This is how Ubogin's fight works more or less. He kept his power at 50% not in the typical 'I held back' manner, but that at 50% his damage is 150, more than enough to overpower a Materialization/Manipulation user unless they use 100%. If the Materialization/Manipulation user then uses some special move, he still has 50% of his power left to react to it. All else being equal, that should be enough to defeat his opponent because he started out using less of his power, so he's got more flexibility to react to any unknown moves. But it's only possible because his 50% is as strong as someone else's 100%.

    A Reinforcement user doesn't have especially high amount of aura or whatever. It's just that their direct physical damage is extra potent and direct damage pretty much rules HXH. But then fights would get extremely boring whenever a Reinforcement user is involved. They'd just slowly chip away an opponent's health at about 60% power. There's nothing besides a Hatsu that can even hurt them if the opponent isn't the same school. But since they still have about 40% left in reserve, they should be able to avoid the Hatsu and then instantly finish off the opponent. The only way they'd lose is if the Hatsu is so strong that you can't avoid it even if you were ready for it, but in that case it's not like anyone else have better options. So this advantage is pretty much forgotten later on because it makes some very unexciting battles.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by ssunlimited View Post
    kkck- I think you are right on this. Ren/Ken are just releasing the Nen energy but using it on your body or an object is enhancement. You must use Ren/Ken and Gyo/Ryu on your body and that is reflected how well you can use those to enhance yourself.
    Well, ren and ken release energy from the body and as far as we know it effectively makes the users physically more powerful. More so, the energy does stay around them as far as we know considering it is possible for nen users to retrieve it and in general it is ren or ken which provides the power for other techniques (although this is more obvious in gon). I don't think there is an alternative to using ren/ken/gyo/ryu on your body. Even if you put nen in other objects it would technically be shu.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Aura can be used to enhance any school. The problem is that if you're talking about fighting, the best way to improve your chance of winning is to increase the damage you do (and you get better defense as a free bonus) and that is obviously the speciality of Reinforcement user.

    We're told that Morel can manipulate about hundreds of smoke objects, while Pitou can do significantly more than this. When Pitou died, Pufu merely thought Pitou was concentrating too hard on his current battle which caused him to lose control over his puppets. Therefore, stuff like number/quality of manpulated objects can be increased or decreased by your current state. If a Manipulation user can control 100 objects normally, perhaps he can control 150 objects while in Ken, and obviously he has the best efficiency at improving the ability to control objects, the same way Reinforcement user is always best at increasing the ability to do physical damage.

    But there's no way being able to control more objects is as useful just being physically stronger when you're in a direct 1on1 fight, which is why you don't really see any other school being mentioned. You might be able to materialize a better sword under Ken, but it still won't come close to what a Reinforcement user can do by merely increasing his physical power, so there's no point, which is why all aura tends to get pumped into improving physical power.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    See I am really confused here. Here are two possibilities:

    1) Enhancers have higher Ren than other types and so just using Ren your offense and your defense increase. Ken is where you maintain Ren all over your body but its draining and is not concentrated. Gon used Ren to deflect that spinning tops guy's spinning tops. He used Ren and his defense increased a lot.
    Problem with this: Kurapika in his Emperor Time mode was able to increase his Nen/Ren as if he became an enhancer and thus enhanced himself better.

    2) Enhancers have the same amount of Ren as other types but when they use it, they enhance themselves better than other types using it.
    Problem with this: Why is it that when you use Ko, you use Gyo 100% on your fist and everything else Zetsu? What does that have to do with anything? All you have to do is use Ren more so on your fist than anywhere else. You don't have to shut down all others just use the whole body to concentrate on your fist.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Assuming two person with identical stats, there's no school that inherently has more Aura than any other school. You're simply more efficient at the school you're good at, so it's as if you've more aura in that school. Since physical damage comes from Reinforcement and is the overwhelming preferred way to spend aura to power up yourself, this makes it look like Reinforcement users have more aura to begin with.

    For the Ken/Ko thing, basically you can have at most 50% modifier on your body at all times. To go above 50% you got to drop some % elsewhere. Ko is 100% at one spot and 0% everywhere else. You can basically think of Ken starts as 50% around your body and then you compress it to become more potent, but now the area it covers is less. From some manga examples, you can do say 90% to cover both of your hands, and you'd have 10% everywhere else. The higher the % you concentrate, the less of an area it covers.

    Using Ko is more of a strategy. The basic combat in HXH says if you've less than 50% (Ken) defending somewhere, you're probably going to take significant damage even against another Ken. So you either stay in Ken the whole time, or you might as well go all the way with Ko. For a while there's this attempt to make the balance of % something important, like say if you can attack with 90% on your hands and then switch back to something else really fast, but this turned out to be useless because your opponent can just do exactly the same thing and we sure don't see any person of significant experience losing because they can't figure out how to shift their aura. So, in light of that, you either play safe with Ken and try to wear them down, or you might as well go for the kill with Ko. Reinforcement favors this strategy since they have the most physical damage out of all schools. The idea is that if your initial attack is devastating enough then it doesn't matter if your defense is 0 because your opponent is going to be dead. This only works for Reinforcement users because if you're any other school, particularly one that's far away Reinforcement, then your Ko isn't going to do as much physical damage, and if you can't do enough damage to kill your opponent in one shot you may very well die from the counterattack. Note that a Reinforcement user will also die if Ko is successfully countered (nobody defends with 0% aura and live against any comparable opponent), but since their physical attack is so great, you've a high probability of killing your opponent on your first strike before they can counter.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    See I'm still not getting this: enhancers have the same amount of aura as other types but enhance their strength better?

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member MegamanX195's Avatar
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by ssunlimited View Post
    See I'm still not getting this: enhancers have the same amount of aura as other types but enhance their strength better?
    Exactly.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    The common mistake I see is that people assume aura is a system of combat. It's not. It's a system of the world. GI's powers is an example of what you could do with aura, and most of them have nothing to do with fighting. Reinforcement is overwhelmingly dominant in fighting because increasing physical attack/defense is the most reliable way to win, but Reinforcement isn't going to help you much on anything else not related to fighting. Miluki alluded to the existence of Hacker Hunters, and whatever those guys are or do, you can be pretty sure their power isn't going to be derived from the Reinforcement school. HXH's world is pretty simliar to our own, so there's no reason to believe why someone who is a master hacker isn't as potent as someone who can smash rocks. One of the final candidates on the Election arc is obviously a hacker type person, showing that even in an organization like Hunter's Association where might makes right, they still respect people who have other useful non-fighting powers.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Enhancement is basically tied with the notion of "quality of the aura" so to speak, the way i get it.
    The best example to justify it is the comparison between gon and kirua, the main protagonists. Kirua is a transmutter, only one school away from reinforcement , so he's not even at such a disadvantage compared to other schools.
    But even so, we know that both of them had practically the same reserve of aura (20 000 pop more or less), that's why when they were practicing ken they both collapsed almost at the same time (in fact killua has more reserve actually ). Even the size of their ren are very similar. But we also know that gon has the upper hand in term of "impact" which is underlined with his "rock" , his most powerful move, presented as exceptional even in the eyes of pros like morau.
    So the only explaination is that enhancers are qualitatively naturally superior, more efficient , regarding the energy itself: the nen.
    And that's why wing stated to gon that those from this category don't need special move, at least that's not what make them special (paper and scissor make gon more versatile, but what make him formidable is rock). There si an inherent difference translated by the double penalty (kurapika's master explaination)
    But togashi system is very complex and well built, with special bonus, conditionns, oath,etc the fight are unpredictable ( cf kurapika vs uvo). There's also like a 6th sens, as seen with hisoka who felt karuto even though his zetsu was perfect, or gon and kirua who felt the presence of the kimera ants spying them (meleoron, etc). It's even worse with ren/ken, or en when people can feel you, or even know exactly where you are and what you're doing you can't only throw hadoken and excpect to beat them (that's not even considering the other conventional senses which can permit you to react, as seen with kurapika who detected uvo despite his in noticing the variation of the particules in the smoke...)
    So yeah, it's only a difference in quality when we look at the aura in its raw state in my opinion, which is less and less accurate the more the users manufacturate the nen....So the reinforcers have inherently better ren, ken, gyo, ten than other users of other categories, of course if we're speaking of two protagonists of comparable level (quantity of the aura, physical strength, speed,etc), a la gon/kirua. The reinforcers do have an advantage regarding the basics application (uvo whole hatsu was based on the pperfect mastery of these principles)
    Last edited by Mylesime; June 18, 2013 at 06:36 AM.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    I don't think there is such a thing as higher quality nen overall. You can train to improve aspects of it however nen itself is the same. I mean, you train your ability to release it (which depends on how large your ken or ren can be and the amount of nen you have within you) and your ability to move it around your body however those are a matter of skill and not the aura itself.

    I think enhancement ultimately comes down to the amount of nen you can concentrate in a single point. In very break terms a lot of things actually count as enhancement however I don't think the term itself would apply in the context of merely applying aura over something (like with shu). Ko is perhaps the epitome of enhancement in many ways. You gather all of your ken into a single point foregoing all defenses and punch the crap out of stuff. Basically enhancement users will be the ones best suited to gather aura in specific points and concentrating a but load of it in them. I don't think just ryu would count as enhancement though. While it does kinda work that way the application is too simplistic and overall basic for nen combat. However in context perhaps the issue is that an enhancer will be able to go past something like ryu in battle and concentrate nen in a particular body part far more efficiently than a non enhancer.

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