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Thread: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

  1. #31
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think there is such a thing as higher quality nen overall. You can train to improve aspects of it however nen itself is the same.
    I disagree even though i see where you·re coming from. There is a difference between nen users aura, especially when they·re from different school.
    For example irumi and hisoka, as well as pito have an evil aura who disturbed gon and killua and that·s not only linked with their power, they·re creepy which is not the case for someone like morau. We also know that you can express different intentions through your aura depending on the situation, for example zeno decided to not joke around with meruem (fearing the boss reaction ).
    The water test is also a very strong element who tends to prove that in my opinion, whatever the reason there is a specific reaction with a simple leaf and water , and these reactions are tthe same for every members of the same school, so i think that·s very clear, there is a diffrence in quality between categories of nen.
    This inherent difference is underlined perfectly with the evolution of the duo gon/kirua, they have very similar "stats" if we look at their aura·s reserve, the size of their ken, ren, etc but there is a difference. And because i agree with you wiht the notion of ryu, that can only be explained qualitatively.

    Concerning ryu, i think that we can assume that kirua is more skilled with the aura flow control, aura quantity evaluation as underlined in the dodgball game, or during their practice, if their ren and ken are practically identical , and we know that ko or gyo are basically the combination of all those principles there is no way to explain how an enhancer user can have such an advantage in hand to hand fight (and healing progress, recovery) if they·re both equivalent in those areas?

    So that·s why i think that there is an inherent advantage concerning aura itsel, its quality with the reinforcer which explain why tehy don·t primarly
    need special technique, the others schools having to compensate; to diminish this natural gap/disadvantage have to use artifice (aura property; special object;etc)

  2. #32
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Unless someone has extra high amount of aura as a trait their base amount is the same. For example Gon has always been described as being able to project a ridiculous amount of aura. That can't be an inherent property of Reinforcement because otherwise there would be nothing surprising about that. Keep in mind you don't need to be able to much stronger than the other guy to defeat him in the world of HXH. Kurapika's master basically says 160 (max a materialization can do in theory) versus 200 (max a reinforcement can do in theory) is pretty much hopeless in a straight up fight.

    Of course if you go into HXH pretty much everyone that matters is special in some way, but that's not supposed to be the norm.

  3. #33
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Unless someone has extra high amount of aura as a trait their base amount is the same.
    How can that be true? Gon exhausted himself against Razor in two shots. Razor was fine with deflecting and throwing/spiking balls with similar power. There was no indication that he was close to running dry.

    Quote Quote:
    For example Gon has always been described as being able to project a ridiculous amount of aura. That can't be an inherent property of Reinforcement because otherwise there would be nothing surprising about that. Keep in mind you don't need to be able to much stronger than the other guy to defeat him in the world of HXH. Kurapika's master basically says 160 (max a materialization can do in theory) versus 200 (max a reinforcement can do in theory) is pretty much hopeless in a straight up fight.
    I think it is a property of Reinforcement - the ability to project a large amount of raw aura at once. It's just a question of extent. Also, Kurapika's master said that maxed materialization user would take heavy damage from a maxed reinforcement user if he tanked a punch. He didn't say that the fight was hopeless. That's because materialized items or things typically have special properties unavailable to a reinforcement user who just hits things with pure aura.

  4. #34
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by mousiehamster View Post
    I think it is a property of Reinforcement - the ability to project a large amount of raw aura at once. It's just a question of extent. Also, Kurapika's master said that maxed materialization user would take heavy damage from a maxed reinforcement user if he tanked a punch. He didn't say that the fight was hopeless. That's because materialized items or things typically have special properties unavailable to a reinforcement user who just hits things with pure aura.
    I don't think it's a property of Enhancement. Anyone can do that (Meruem, Hisoka, Illumi etc.). Gon has been able to release so much aura because he is a genius and also because he is way more stronger when he is in danger. He is a powerhouse and it's even more frightening because he is an Enhancer. Killua should be able to release the same amount of aura, but his attacks won't be as powerful as Rock because strengthen their aura is their Enhancers' specialty, their aura is just better. Even if Razor is a veteran fighter and an Emitter, Gon's Rock was more powerful than his Nen balls. He can one-shot Morau, Knuckle and many other characters but he is not "stronger" than them because power is not the only factor in a Nen battle.
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Gon's Rock was more powerful than Razor's Nen ball ? I dont think that's true, I mean, Gon is really strong but Razor is...well, Razor. This guy is at the very least as strong as Hisoka and Chrollo, and the first time we see him use his Nen balls, he effortlessly destroys an entire boat (with a pretty massive explosion). I'm not sure Gon could do the same with his Rock.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    I don't think it's a property of Enhancement. Anyone can do that (Meruem, Hisoka, Illumi etc.). Gon has been able to release so much aura because he is a genius and also because he is way more stronger when he is in danger. He is a powerhouse and it's even more frightening because he is an Enhancer. Killua should be able to release the same amount of aura, but his attacks won't be as powerful as Rock because strengthen their aura is their Enhancers' specialty, their aura is just better. Even if Razor is a veteran fighter and an Emitter, Gon's Rock was more powerful than his Nen balls. He can one-shot Morau, Knuckle and many other characters but he is not "stronger" than them because power is not the only factor in a Nen battle.
    I think it just makes sense for Reinforcement users to typically have greater Nen generation. I mean what are the fundamental techniques? Ko, Gyo, Ken - all of these techniques are about releasing as much raw Nen as possible and controlling where it is focused to. Hence a reinforcement user's Ko can only be stronger than a manipulator's Ko (assuming maxed stats) if the reinforcement user can release more aura. In that sense, there's no such thing as "Reinforcement Nen" - it's just Nen. The exception is "Reinforcement Nen" used for healing which logically is NOT just raw Nen energy but something else.

    Meh I don't know. It doesn't matter.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by Django View Post
    Gon's Rock was more powerful than Razor's Nen ball ? I dont think that's true, I mean, Gon is really strong but Razor is...well, Razor. This guy is at the very least as strong as Hisoka and Chrollo, and the first time we see him use his Nen balls, he effortlessly destroys an entire boat (with a pretty massive explosion). I'm not sure Gon could do the same with his Rock.
    I think so. When Gon used Rock in the dodgeball game Razor stated himself that he wouldn't be able to stop the ball with his power. He only succeeded because of his reception technique.

    Enhancement is like STAB in Pokemon. Even if Mach Punch has a power of 40, it will still be more powerful when used by a Fighting type.
    Last edited by Demonspeed; June 19, 2013 at 09:43 AM.
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Razor was a pretty strong nen user. His attack was so powerful that even hisoka had trouble with it. Gon is still an amateur in turn, even his amount of nen is described a mid level at best. Razor would have probably been unable to stop the ball without taking damage simply because he is not an enhancer. When gon uses rock he is able to fully concentrate his power in his fist and on top of that we know for a fact that gon gets a power boost thanks to his determination and chanting. His attack would have been made out of the entire aura he was putting into his fist (or ball, dunno) and the strenght of the punch he used. For razor to defend from that he would have needed ko wherever he was defending at least. On top of him not being an enhancer (which means his ko defense won't be 100%) he is also not getting a determination boost. So he has to defend from gon's attack which is potentially hitting at 120% so to speak while using only an 80% defense or so. Its a bad scenario for razor even if he is the stronger fighter.

    As for reinforcement being related to the amount of nen one can emanate, I doubt it to be honest. Emanating aura is a matter of training ken. The more you train your ken the more aura you can have around you at a given time. Gon and killua have generally been equal in terms of amount of aura and ken if I recall which would make no sense if either was directly related to reinforcement. Enhancement is simply the use of nen to enhance the properties of something, I don't think basic techniques quite fit into that.

  9. #39
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    I think so. When Gon used Rock in the dodgeball game Razor stated himself that he wouldn't be able to stop the ball with his power.
    That doesn't necessarily mean Gon's Rock is stronger than Razor's Nen balls. It's possible that Razor wouldn't be able to stop his own Nen balls if they were fired at him too.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    To use Knuckle's example, let's say Gon has 20000 AP total and he can project 2000 at once. Now why don't you simply project more at once? Because you simply cannot. We know from Knuckles that something around 10000 AP at once is pretty much an amount no human can possibly survive from (there's no reason to believe anyone outside of possibly Uber Gon could possibly withstand Yupi's full strength head on, as getting the equivalent of tapped by Yupi does serious damage to a human character). So this means if you could project 10000 AP at once you should definitely do it in a battle to the death. It doesn't matter if you only get one shot because unless you totally missed (which you'd be pretty screwed no matter how little or how much aura you're projecting), the other guy is going to be dead. Knuckles pointed out that being able to project 2000 AP at once is pretty insane, as we know that's enough to knock him out.

    So the ability to project large amount of aura isn't something special to Reinforcement, because if it was then there would be nothing special about Gon that made Razor said he is indeed Ging's son. In fact, being able to project more aura is pretty close to auto win as it gets, and that's why Gon's ability to project a very large amount of aura at once is scary even to very powerful characters.

    If you're talking about general property of aura, remember that most of the relevent characters are not normal. Gon can project extra amount of aura. Killua is extra precise with his distribution of aura. Hisoka's aura is extra evil (characters stronger than him do not give off the same effect). By the way, Gon's ability to project extra aura isn't quite as useful as it looks, because it takes a relatively long time for him to pull it off. He can't project extra aura instantly, and if he's not the main character you'd most likely be able to simply kill him while he's preparing his move.
    Last edited by Phantron; June 21, 2013 at 02:41 AM.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Could be he just projects more than what is normal even for a (relatively inexperienced) reinforcement user. Uvo is another guy who has tons of aura. I mean it just seems to be conceptually consistent for Reinforcement users to have better aura projection and larger reserves.

    Biscuit also said something to the effect that it was disadvantageous for Razor as an Emitter to be playing nen infused dodgeball because a Reinforcement user can take time to charge up.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by mousiehamster View Post
    Could be he just projects more than what is normal even for a (relatively inexperienced) reinforcement user. Uvo is another guy who has tons of aura. I mean it just seems to be conceptually consistent for Reinforcement users to have better aura projection and larger reserves.

    Biscuit also said something to the effect that it was disadvantageous for Razor as an Emitter to be playing nen infused dodgeball because a Reinforcement user can take time to charge up.
    Anybody can take the same time to charge up but since throwing the ball is Reinforcement, it's obviously ideal for Reinforcement. The amount Gon has to be able to project is incredibly high by any standards. Nobody else can even knock down clone #13 let alone Razor himself. There's nothing that indicates Ubogin has an especially high amount of aura compared to other guys in the group, but he certainly does the most physical damage. Yupi has 700K AP in reserve, and there's no reason to believe that number is especially high compared to the rest of the Royal Guards, or for that matter if it's even higher at all.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    It's normal for enhancers to release a lot of aura. They are the best in physical strength so they'll obviously do it a lot to enhance their moves, their moves are not as complex as others. Hisoka for example won't emanate a lot of aura like Gon or Uvo for his Bungee Gum.
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    It's normal for enhancers to release a lot of aura. They are the best in physical strength so they'll obviously do it a lot to enhance their moves, their moves are not as complex as others. Hisoka for example won't emanate a lot of aura like Gon or Uvo for his Bungee Gum.
    That's because putting more aura on an ability like Bungee Gum does absolutely nothing useful. Is it going to cover more area? More sticky than usual? None of that is anywhere as useful as just projecting more aura for physical attack. Besides, the power of the Bungee Gum is limited by Hisoka's strength, as we see that he cannot use it on anyone stronger than him physically without significant risk (if an opponent is physically stronger then the advantage of the ability is basically reversed). Like Kurapika's master says, you can't try to sidestep Reinforcement user's inherent advantage in physical attack by trying to project a 'sword that can cut through anything'. Likewise you can't have bubblegum that is elastic enough to reflect anything back no matter how hard you try. Ultimately Hisoka's power is still backed by the fact that he is very physically strong so that him holding the Bungee Gum is enough to reflect against most enemies. If it's common for someone to be as physically as strong as Razor, then Hisoka's ability will be pretty much useless as we see Razor can flat out overpower his ability with ease. The point is that someone as physically strong as Razor is clearly very uncommon in the world of HXH so Hisoka doesn't plan for these exceptions.

    If you look at the 3 Royal Guards, there's no reason to believe Yupi is supposed to have the highest AP output out of them all. Pitou remote controls an entire army and is on guard duty all the time to boot, which presumably requires a lot of aura as well. Now there's no doubt Yupi does the most physical damage out of all 3 Royal Guards, but that doesn't mean he has the most aura.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Exactly, releasing more aura is useless for him. Enhancers can't do anything but release more aura and punch. I agree with you about Yupi, but is it confirmed that he is an Enhancer? His transforming abilities are weird.
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