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Thread: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

  1. #46
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Wait, you are saying hisoka does not plan on exceptions like razor? Hisoka exists solely to fight high level nen users at large, he only plans on fighting the exceptions. I don't think the situation against hisoka would be so dire just from running into someone physically more powerful than him. The guy is endlessly creative and looks for fights, if the situation was as you say then he would basically be screwed against a high level enhancer. I would think hisoka could benefit significantly from adding more aura to his gum. The amount of it he could create, making it more elastic, making it more resistant.... Those are the things he takes advantage of when fighting.

    As for the amount of aura, I don't see how that can be connected to enhancement per say. Even if a relation can be made it wouldn't be because enhancers per say are more adept at it than others, it would be an issue of enhancers simply needing to learn how to release more aura as they are at best as dangerous as the entire amount of aura they can project. Still, releasing large amounts of aura is a must for basically any nen user at large. Emitters would play along the same rules as enhancers when making emitted attacks (although it would depend on the attack). Razor's nen ball can only be as strong as his entire aura output at any one time just as gon's rock. An user's ken, which is the max aura output possible, is precisely also the maximum amount of power someone can put into a single technique.

    More so, the basics of nen combat revolve around moving your ken around your body in order to minimize and control how much damage you take at once. Being that as it is having a strong ren and ken is a must even for non enhancers. Most nen users we have seen are not necessarily on the strong side so far, even becoming a mid level nen user can take years. On the other hand actual high level nen users train all aspects of nen all the time and get involved in fights consistently. That has the implication that they develop high level kens which could actually handle enhancers. Its improbable a non enhancer could actually defend from something like rock or uvo's attack at large however holding your ground in standard combat should be plausible at large and perhaps even a bare minimum.

  2. #47
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Demonspeed's Avatar
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    I didn't say he would run I personally think Hisoka is stronger than Razor. But that he won't release a lot of aura as often as Gon or Uvo. I don't see how release more aura will increase the properties of Bungee Gum. Hisoka would do that for enhances his Shu and also Ryu/Ken etc. Thanks to his transmutation ability he has other ways of fighting but not Enhancers, excepted Gon with Scissors and Paper.
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic172142_25.gif

  3. #48
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Projecting more aura on non Reinforcement type attacks isn't going to be enough to overcome a physical deficit. Hisoka broke all his fingers trying to reflect Razor's attack. There's no reason to believe this result would be any different no matter how else he modified his Bungee Gum. If they are really fighting to the death he'd most likely try to avoid the attack, but that doesn't change the fact that he's working from a serious disadvantageous position when your opponent's attack can directly break through your move. Creativity is overvalued because the most creative people in HXH, like Gon or Hisoka, by definition can't lose in their matchups so of course it always looks like creativity works. If Kastro simply snapped Hisoka's neck instead of chopping off an arm off that'd have been the end of him and that certainly could've happened, and actually that's an example of why Reinforcement users usually do not have to be very creative, because if you make sure the other dies then you're not really worried what trick they can possibly do. Creativity is something you do when you're weaker than the other guy. Since Reinforcement guys are stronger than anyone of the same tier physically as long as they're not the same school, there's no reason for them to get creative against an equal tier opponent.

  4. #49
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Didn't hisoka break his fingers because his bungee gum was pulled hard enough? I don't think strength of aura had anything to do with that overall. If anything in that particular scenario the situation is the opposite. Hisaka needed a gum strong enough to actually contain the attack and return it while also not having all that force being transferred to his body. Aura would only protect him if he added it to his hands themselves but that is not what he was doing there. The gum was never meant to protect his own body. In that particular case he would need more aura to make his gum have the exact elasticity and resistance he needed and to have enough of it for his need.

    I am not sure of what your point overall is. In nen combat you are going to be up against all kinds of opponents and in many cases you simply won't be able to keep your distance. While matching an enhancer in close combat is basically impossible for non enhancers they still do have to know their way around close range combat for the simple reason they won't be able to avoid it. So they have to do with their basic nen skills AND their hatsu at large. Still, for their basic skills to be worth a damn overall they do have to fulfill the extremely basic requirement of being able to conjure as strong a ken as possible and be able to distribute their aura well enough to at least defend themselves. Otherwise the very training killua received would be as a whole entirely and absolutely pointless considering it is of virtually no benefit for him to train his ken as running into an enhancer would imply close range combat equates to death. Nen combat would have to be entirely focused on ranged combat against the essentially all powerful enhancers. Then again that is not at all what we see in the manga. Bisk is a formidable close range fighter at a minimum, knuckle is a beast, shoot is not bad, morau can hold his own pretty well and so on. Even if some techniques do not become more powerful per say from having more aura it does not mean they can neglect their ken and the amount of aura it has. Its still crucial for their offense and defense and the overall amount of aura they have determines how long they can remain in combat (even for gon each hour of ken during training represented 10 minutes worth of combat and even less if he actually used his techniques).

    And what about murao? The guy has an ability with virtually no offensive capacity and yet he has won every single battle he has been in because he has outsmarted his enemy. Knuckle is apparently an emitter and even then he relies solely on his wit and physical combat capaicities to win. His ability basically forces him to close combat considering there is a limit to how far he can be from his enemy for it to work. Or are they plot protected to? But then again, if everyone is plot protected then no one really is plot protected.....

    Enhancers don't innately have a stronger aura than their enemies, they are simply able to use simple techniques to their fullest and beyond. Take gon's rock. His ko (aka rock) is made out of the entirety of his ken concentrated into his fist. Being an enhancer he does not loose any aura doing this. On top of that he gets an extra boost due to his determination and whatnot. Knuckle made the point that gon's ken had around 1800 aura and when he used rock it went beyond 2000. That alone has the implication that he can attack at well over 110% so to speak. If killua tried this and his ken was just about as strong as gon's (which seems to be the case) then he would have to suffer the consequences of not being an enhancer when using it. If we take the hatsu chart to heart the situation would be that killua's ko would not even be 1800 but rather it would be in the range of 1600. Even if he defended he would still take significant damage at least. That however would only work when enhancement comes into play. Defense from gon's rock is either impossible or too much of a risk for killua however when it comes to basic combat neither would have an edge or disadvantage due to their nen type. The entirety of what we have seen of nen combat relies on the assumption that the basics of nen combat work just as well for everyone, its only special techniques which differ.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by ssunlimited View Post
    I just thought that Ren automatically enhances you so the Enhancer has stronger Ren than other types. Gyo is Ren focused on a body part more than other parts. Ryu is adjusting Ren around body parts, it is Gyo in certain parts and less Gyo in other parts. So I'm confused where enhancing comes, I thought it came automatically when you used Ren.
    No ren is different from enhancement bcuz enhancement is a hatsu type. A hatsu is a specific nen ability so enhancement would be a specific ability that enhances a certain thing. Like how Gon's rock enhances his fist and makes it very powerful. Ren used on a fist (really its Ko used not Ren) would reinforce ur fists power and make it stronger but not as much as a specific enhancement hatsu. Someone like say Killua could use enhancement just like Gon but since he is a transmuter its efficiency can only be a max of 80% meaning he will never have a 100% balance of nen consumed to charge it and the actual nen power it contained when it was used. This is why its not as effective for a transmuter like Killua to develop enhancement hatsu even though he can. Gon on the other hand should develop that type of hatsu bcuz he has the potential for 100% potential unlike Killua.

    Enhancers aren't necessarily stronger than other nen users by default. But they usually are bcuz of their personality and the importance they place on fighting and developing abilities and hatsu based around fighting. Another user of another category (mainly conjurers, manipulators, and specialists) may not want a fighting or combat ability so he will not make one or really focus on fighting. While Ehancers (and Emitters and Transmuters bcuz how close they are to enhancement) usually develop fighitng abilities bcuz it complements their aura types better than the mental type abilities of the other three types.

    Also another thing that sets enhancement apart from ren is that it seems to overcharge ur aura in a sense. So say you use gyo to focus aura into your fist. You use ren to increase the aura in your fist till it becomes Ko (100% aura in your fist). If you hit someone with that fist sure it will do a lot of damage, maybe it will even feel like an enhanced fist but it really is not. If you used Ko on your fist and issued a simple command like "concentrate this aura to enhance my fist" it would overcharge the aura in your fist and make it stronger than it would be than if you just used Ko. Like how Gon's rock charges up a bunch of aura into his fist but it seems to be overcharging it beyond 100%. Or how when Phinks rotates his arm and it multiplies the power of its strength. Their can be different commands but it always seems to have this overcharging effect multiplying its power more than just using ur available Ko aura. And only enhancers can use this at 100% which is why they are the most effective and dangerous fighters. Sure other users can also use enhancement bu they won't be as effective so in a fight its usually not he best way to go and they should just stick to their own type.

    You could also think of enhancement as just concentrating your aura into a single point or condensing it into a small point. That seems to be another theme of enhancement. Say like if u just used Ko on ur fist all ur doing is moving all ur aura around ur fist and just leaving it there. The enhancement should come in when u condense all of that aura into ur fist multiply the power and impact of ur fist, which would explain the mechanics behind it and why its far more powerful and effective than simple Ko. You can kinda see how this works during the gon vs pitou fight when gon had a huge amount of aura around his fist and concentrated it inside his fist and it started shining brightly as it was packed with power and the huge aura around was much smaller and more concentrated. That seems to be what sets apart enhancement and Ko.
    Quote Originally Posted by BurnSchulz View Post
    But thats how it works. No other type of Nen user can, if Same Nen Level and Same Physical Strengh, Block a Punch from Reinforcement Type, without getting heavy damage.
    But if an other type of nen user has double the ammount of Nen, he will overcome the reinforcement type.
    Most of the Calculation examples are based on the same Nen level and Body Strengh.

    Even though Kurapika as Special Type with Scarlet eyes mode, had his arm broken after Uborgin hit him with 100% because Uborgin has higher body strengh and Nen level. Kurapika even pushed his Nen beyond imagination with his Rule that he only uses his main ability (the nen draining chain) against the Phantom Brigade.

    That was well explained in the yorkshin arc. If your Nen is not high enough you can literally multiply the effect by setting Rules and conditions for your ability.
    If they have an equally powerful enhancement hatsu that can defend against it they can.

    ---------- Post added at 02:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ssunlimited View Post
    Yes looks like Kurapika had these things:

    1) Emperor Time causing 100% Enhancement
    2) Rules to strengthen Nen
    3) High Nen aura level
    4) Talent

    But he doesn't look like a strong physical type.
    Kurapika's scarlet eyes don't automatically give him 100% efficiency in enhancement it just lift his potential up from 60 to 100% thats all. If he trained an enhancement hatsu with the scarlet eyes he can get up to 100% efficiency which would only normally be 60% without it.

    ---------- Post added at 02:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ssunlimited View Post
    See I'm still not getting this: enhancers have the same amount of aura as other types but enhance their strength better?
    They can create enhancement hatsu more efficiently than any other class and enhancement hatsu have the simplest conditions so they are easier and quicker to use than other classes in combat. Since they are the only class with 100% efficiency usually they are the more effective fighters.

    ---------- Post added at 03:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mousiehamster View Post
    How can that be true? Gon exhausted himself against Razor in two shots. Razor was fine with deflecting and throwing/spiking balls with similar power. There was no indication that he was close to running dry.



    I think it is a property of Reinforcement - the ability to project a large amount of raw aura at once. It's just a question of extent. Also, Kurapika's master said that maxed materialization user would take heavy damage from a maxed reinforcement user if he tanked a punch. He didn't say that the fight was hopeless. That's because materialized items or things typically have special properties unavailable to a reinforcement user who just hits things with pure aura.
    That has nothing to do with enhancement. Thats just something that depends on the user himself. Pitou was a specialist yet his aura was insanely large and powerful, it has nothing to do with enhancement users specifically.

    ---------- Post added at 03:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    Exactly, releasing more aura is useless for him. Enhancers can't do anything but release more aura and punch. I agree with you about Yupi, but is it confirmed that he is an Enhancer? His transforming abilities are weird.
    He's a transmuter obviously. What else could he be?
    Last edited by tupadre97; July 04, 2013 at 01:51 AM.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Yupi's shapeshifting abilities can only be Manipulation. Transmutation allows you to change the properties of your aura, not to transform any physical object. Yupi manipulates his own body, just like Illumi does with his needles.

  7. #52
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Well, using ren or ken does make you instantly more powerful in direct proportion to how much aura you are emitting however those are still basic techniques available to anyone. I don't think the strength of enhancers lies in them just being able to use 100% though. Knuckle gave a little explanation regarding gon's rock a while ago.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/207-14220-...apter-211.html

    Gon's ken has around 1800 aura. His rock is basically his concentrated ken into his fist. However the energy in his fists is 2000 which is obviously higher than his ken. So gon as an enhancer is able to use rock at 100% efficiency and due to how risky the technique is to gon and whatnot he gets 200 extra aura or so. Basically enhancers don't just use enhancement at 100%, their main techniques can and will be influenced by their restrictions and determination thus resulting in them being able to enhance at well over 100%. Still, its not like enhancers are invincible. Such a thing would only work for their hatsu at large meaning that for anything that is not their hatsu they play by exactly the same combat rules as their peers. There are plenty non enhancers that rely entirely on physical combat to win after all (knuckle and bisk for example) so I doubt it makes sense for enhancers to be that invincible in close combat. When fighting an enhancer non enhancers have to worry about the fact that their simple techniques will usually be their hatsus and be remarkably more powerful than ordinary. When fighting a non enhancer you have to worry about the fact that their techniques could be just about anything.

  8. #53
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Yupi's ability to transform is a property of his body. He has all the DNAs of all kinds of different animals.

    Honestly Reinforcement is invinicible if two users have identical physical stats. It'd basically look like a hadoken trap. You can think of the hadoken as the Reinforcement's ken. All you can do is block it if you're not Reinforcement (and still take damage). If you try to jump (use a Hatsu), they use their Hatsu (Dragon Punch) which is going to hit harder than your Hatsu by the fact they're Reinforcement, so you can't win. The only way around it is if your Hatsu is absolute hax, like something on par with Emperor Time so that the Reinforcement's Hatsu cannot possibly match it. But there's no reason to assume hax Hatsu only belongs to non Reinforcement users. Gon's ability to borrow power from his future self is pretty hax too and he's a Reinforcement user. It doesn't even matter if your Hatsu is so powerful that it can kill the opponent in one hit because the same thing applies to the Reinforcement user's Hatsu if he's as talented as you, and since he has higher physical defense than you, he's always slightly less likely to die than you. Now of course this doesn't happen in HXH because it'd be pretty boring when you watch a Reinforcement punch someone for two hours to wear them down (because they have no reason to use Hatsu unless the enemy uses Hatsu).

    Silva's attack on Kuroro is a good example of this. It's implied that he can kill Kuroro in one hit after he's done charging up. If you can kill the other guy in one hit, there's really no point to worry about what Hatsu he has because if he can also kill you in one hit, so be it. This means Reinforcement users are significantly weaker in a controlled environment (like say, Celestial Arena), because killing people there is generally frowned upon or possibly forbidden (for example, Spiders are clearly forbidden to kill each other). For example if Ubogin fought Shizuku, because they can't actually kill each other (due to the rules), Ubogin can't just smack Shizuku with a Big Bang Punch even though that will almost surely kill her in one hit, so Shizuku might have some chance of pulling off something really clever. In a real fight to the death, Shizuku would have no chance because it doesn't matter what she does, Ubogin will be able to kill her in one Big Bang Punch and the best she can possibly do is a double KO without an Emperor Time tier ability, and of course if you have an ability like that there's nothing equal about the two users to begin with.

  9. #54
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Silva is not an enhancer though. The databook refers to him as a transmuter.

    There is no reason at all for an enhancer to be invincible, that makes no sense whatsoever within the context in the manga and it would make virtually every hatsu except for reinforcement hatsu virtually useless. Take bisk or knuckle. Their entire styles resolve completely around literally and physically beating the crap out of their enemies. Knuckle is perhaps the greater extreme here. He is an emission user who has to literally deliver more damage than his enemy to win otherwise his hatsu is pointless. I doubt he developed that hatsu thinking he would always have someone to fight with him or thinking that its ok to just die if he ever runs into an enhancer.

    Its true enhancers have the better balance between offense and defense but that is not the same as winning every battle. Their strength is that they can use simple techniques to their maximum potential however even that is ultimately a blessing and a curse. Enhancers have two options at large when it comes to offense, either charge up nen on a particular body part or charge nen on an object. When it comes to defense the issue is exactly the same. Ultimately doing either has severe side effects, in particular with offense. In any scenario it would ultimately come down to the fact that the superior offense and defense an user can have comes at the cost of sacrificing defense somewhere. Ko, the most basic reinforcement hatsu, comes at the cost of leaving the entire rest of the body defenseless. A reinforced defense can only be done by concentrating aura somewhere meaning that every spot but that one will be left vulnerable. The manga has actually shown this, gon is invariably left vulnerable when he uses rock or any of his other hatsu.

    Shizuku has a pretty hax ability though. All she needs is to cause a little cut on uvo and draw his blood out. Its a pretty convenient loophole to her ability to exploit. Even then, shizuku is not precisely a combat person even if she is pretty strong. Uvo is perhaps one of the stronger enhancers we have seen in the manga and I fail to see how he would have a guaranteed victory against the other spiders or hisoka or illumi.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Silva is transformation but Kuroro is specialization which means Silva is 2 schools above him in terms of physical damage (1 away from Reinforcement versus 3). Kuroro already says he can't guard Zeno's emission attacks directly (which is 2 away from his school) so of course he can't guard Silva's direct attack either (1 away from Reinforcment, and presumably Silva is the stronger of the two).

    Knuckles's ability is pretty much useless fighting an identical physical stat Reinforcement user since he'd never come out ahead. The reason why his tactic works is that he has very high base stats and especially high speed. Likewise someone like Hisoka or Ilumi is especially strong physicaly compared to people in the same age group, which is why you can't say for sure if Ubogin will definitely be able to beat either of the two. It's because Reinforcement users are pretty much invinicible on an even fight that so far we see their opponents all tend to be guy who are especially physically strong (Gon versus anyone) or have especially hax abilities (Ubogin versus Kurapika). Ubogin might be the physically strongest person in the Spiders, but that ranking obviously accounts for their aura. If Ubogin has to fight Hisoka in a hypothetical perma Zetsu zone, there's no reason to believe Hisoka would lose. It'd probably look exactly like Kurapika versus Hisoka on the Hunter exam (presumably that was a no aura fight).

    Shizuku's ability is very weak because if you're able to inflict bleeding wounds on the enemy with an object then the old poisoned weapon approach would've definitely killed your opponent unless your opponent is someone with the rare poison resistance property. Even working together with a friend, it's pretty useless because whatever ally that inflicted the said wound could've been using poisoned weapon too. Generally speaking anything that relies on debiliating the enemy in HXH is a bad idea. Killua can shock his opponent, or you can just buy a taser and do the same thing that'd require an unbelievably amount of talent to pull off.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Gon's "transformation" was specialization nen for sure, not enhancement.

    Reinforcement users get pwned by "creative" moves. The invincible Uvogin got his hand pierced by crappy quills (nen manipulated hair) from one of the Injyuu. Nobunaga was shrunk to the size of ant. Good luck figuring out what your opponent's abilities are. But it is exceedingly obvious if your opponent is an enhancer, and you can more or less bank on them having simple close up abilities. It doesn't even so follow that enhancers have the greatest attacking ability compared to other schools. Killua probably has greater attacking power and speed than Gon with transmutation because of his hatsu.

    Shizuku's ability is retarded because it cannot suck living things but apparently blood is exempt. Surely she should've just sucked the balls out of the ant's ballsacks right from the beginning? Why not suck out all the web from the ant's abdomen? Or the ant's eyeballs?

    I agree that poison is kind of retarded, however. Hopefully there'll be a general poison immunity serum sometime soon which only the deadliest toxins are able to bypass i.e. the gunk from the Benz knife.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Silva is transformation but Kuroro is specialization which means Silva is 2 schools above him in terms of physical damage (1 away from Reinforcement versus 3). Kuroro already says he can't guard Zeno's emission attacks directly (which is 2 away from his school) so of course he can't guard Silva's direct attack either (1 away from Reinforcment, and presumably Silva is the stronger of the two).

    Knuckles's ability is pretty much useless fighting an identical physical stat Reinforcement user since he'd never come out ahead. The reason why his tactic works is that he has very high base stats and especially high speed. Likewise someone like Hisoka or Ilumi is especially strong physicaly compared to people in the same age group, which is why you can't say for sure if Ubogin will definitely be able to beat either of the two. It's because Reinforcement users are pretty much invinicible on an even fight that so far we see their opponents all tend to be guy who are especially physically strong (Gon versus anyone) or have especially hax abilities (Ubogin versus Kurapika). Ubogin might be the physically strongest person in the Spiders, but that ranking obviously accounts for their aura. If Ubogin has to fight Hisoka in a hypothetical perma Zetsu zone, there's no reason to believe Hisoka would lose. It'd probably look exactly like Kurapika versus Hisoka on the Hunter exam (presumably that was a no aura fight).

    Shizuku's ability is very weak because if you're able to inflict bleeding wounds on the enemy with an object then the old poisoned weapon approach would've definitely killed your opponent unless your opponent is someone with the rare poison resistance property. Even working together with a friend, it's pretty useless because whatever ally that inflicted the said wound could've been using poisoned weapon too. Generally speaking anything that relies on debiliating the enemy in HXH is a bad idea. Killua can shock his opponent, or you can just buy a taser and do the same thing that'd require an unbelievably amount of talent to pull off.
    I am pretty sure "specialization" does not apply to users per say but rather hatsu so to speak. I think kuroro would overall play under the rules of conjuration in that regard considering his book is conjured. Kinda like how kurapica works basically, when he is not using emperor time or whatnot he is a conjurer.

    Well, the only moment where knuckle would not be ahead would be when he takes an attack which actually uses enhancement. Its only hatsu knuckle has to worry about in the end which can give back a lot of nen. Other than that knuckle is in basically the same boat as every other nen user out there when it comes to physical combat, including enhancers. Even if knuckle is up against someone capable of spamming enhanced attacks he is still not in a very terrible situation considering an attack of such a nature would not be significantly stronger than a regular attack. Knuckles pot clean also does get aura on quite fast after a while, if you are getting 1000 aura or more every 10 seconds on the count then odds are its gonna be pretty hard to give that back in one attack. Gon's rock has 2000 aura.... even if it was twice as strong giving back all the aura once the count got high is quite difficult.

    Shizuku's ability is one of the most valued at the ryodan though, they actually made the point that it would be preferable to protect her considering her ability would be the hardest to replace. While shizuku is perhaps not a fighter herself the manga has made the point there is indeed something damn special to her ability. What shizuku does is hardly debilitating the enemy, its actually quite fast if anything. The spider she fought could have covered his wounds to protect itself but someone without the benefit of extra hands or an special ability to cover wounds would be in a pretty bad situation.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by mousiehamster View Post
    Gon's "transformation" was specialization nen for sure, not enhancement.

    Reinforcement users get pwned by "creative" moves. The invincible Uvogin got his hand pierced by crappy quills (nen manipulated hair) from one of the Injyuu. Nobunaga was shrunk to the size of ant. Good luck figuring out what your opponent's abilities are. But it is exceedingly obvious if your opponent is an enhancer, and you can more or less bank on them having simple close up abilities. It doesn't even so follow that enhancers have the greatest attacking ability compared to other schools. Killua probably has greater attacking power and speed than Gon with transmutation because of his hatsu.

    Shizuku's ability is retarded because it cannot suck living things but apparently blood is exempt. Surely she should've just sucked the balls out of the ant's ballsacks right from the beginning? Why not suck out all the web from the ant's abdomen? Or the ant's eyeballs?

    I agree that poison is kind of retarded, however. Hopefully there'll be a general poison immunity serum sometime soon which only the deadliest toxins are able to bypass i.e. the gunk from the Benz knife.
    The point about Gon's transformation is crazy abilities are hardly only in the domain of non Reinforcement users. Gon has the craziest special ability we've seen so far. Netero's move, while not exactly 'creative', is also extremely hard to defend against and not what you'd expect from a Reinforcement user.

    If Ubogin wasn't poisoned, none of that would've made much of a difference. He'd definitely have figured out a way to kill those guys easily if he wasn't paralyzed. The injuries he sustained were very minor by HXH standards. Even if the eggs turned out to be uncureable and killed him later, he's still certain to have killed all his opponent first before he died. That's about as much as you can ask when you've no way of figuring out what your opponent's ability is.

    People are a bit too obsessive on the 'figuring out' part. It's only possible mostly because you see the story from Gon's point of view who is never in danger of actually dying so he can plan and strategize. Even Gon's Jajaken is more or less one hit KO against guys who are supposed to be much stronger than him overall, let alone an even match like say Ubogin against anyone in the 30 or younger category. No Ubogin isn't invinicible but you can be sure anyone not a Reinforcement user isn't going to be just tank a Big Bang. So from his point of view as long as he thinks he can connect a Big Bang there's no reason to worry about the other guy's move, because a connected Big Bang is likely going to do at least as much damage as the other guy can. That didn't work for Emperor Time but there's literally no way you can figure out what Emperor Time does, not to mention if you do assume your opponent has this kind of crazy ability you might as well never fight anyone.

    Note that the Reinforcement user always has the initiative advantage against an equal tier opponent, because by definition they will never lose in a straight up Ken vs Ken fight. So either they see an opening and try to finish you off with a Hatsu first, or the opponent is forced to use Hatsu first from a disadvantageous position and from there you can either try to avoid it or, at worst, use your own Hatsu. Of course none of that matters very much in the manga because you can just get poisoned and die (that's how Ubogin lost against 3 guys who really have no chance of beating him), or you run into someone who has an especially hax ability (Ubogin again). Shizuku can just copy Morel's strategy and bring an oxygen tank and suck up all the oxygen in the air too.

    ---------- Post added at 10:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I am pretty sure "specialization" does not apply to users per say but rather hatsu so to speak. I think kuroro would overall play under the rules of conjuration in that regard considering his book is conjured. Kinda like how kurapica works basically, when he is not using emperor time or whatnot he is a conjurer.

    Shizuku's ability is one of the most valued at the ryodan though, they actually made the point that it would be preferable to protect her considering her ability would be the hardest to replace. While shizuku is perhaps not a fighter herself the manga has made the point there is indeed something damn special to her ability. What shizuku does is hardly debilitating the enemy, its actually quite fast if anything. The spider she fought could have covered his wounds to protect itself but someone without the benefit of extra hands or an special ability to cover wounds would be in a pretty bad situation.
    Specialization is a school like any other. Pitou was born as a specialization user, and the water test shows a result completely different from the other 5 schools. Just because Kurapika happens to the only person who has an ability that causes him to switch schools doesn't mean everyone else is the same way. Kuroro's physical strength (7th in Spiders) is consistent with the school's placement on the aura chart (furthest from Reinforcement) when you consider he's obviously supposed to have one of the highest physical stats amongst the Spiders, so his relatively low overall strength can only be because he is furthest away from Reinforcement.

    Shizuku's ability is valuable because it has tremendous non combat applications. In combat it's useless because whatever caused the bleeding could've been done with a poisoned weapon and that'll more or less kill your opponent instantly. Even if poisoned weapons are forbidden, we see all high tier characters have ability to stop bleeding basically instantly (Hisoka, Silva, Netero), so it must be a common universal technique that all powerful characters already know how to use. To be fair this ability probably exists because of Shizuku's ability, but the end result is that bleeding wounds are pretty much impossible to get against any high tier opponent. If you look at the battle involving Royal Guards and Meryem, you'd notice almost nobody was ever bleeding in all their fights. Yupi having a bladed hand is just a plot element to deal with Meleoron's ability, as with his power he can easily smash Morel to a pulp with his foot and would have no reason to require sharp objects of any kind.

    The problem with special abilities in HXH is that there isn't a 'power level renders special ability ineffective' concept in HXH unlike most manga. Even Netero would easily be killed by a poisoned weapon (no reason to believe he'd have any resistance to it). Shalunark's antennae should also work on anybody as well. So anyone with an ability like Shalunark or Shizuku would either be invinciible or they'd be the first person to die, and neither is very interesting in terms of plot, so they end up having an effectively useless ability because there's no way any combat would be interesting if they really worked like advertised.
    Last edited by Phantron; July 05, 2013 at 10:49 AM.

  14. #59
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    I would argue specialization is and isn't a school to some degree. Its a category where everything which does not fit in is thrown into. Pitou is one case but what about kurapica? The guy took the test and originally he was said to be a conjurer and only when he had his crimson eyes he was a specialization. I would think kuroro would be more in the kurapica situation than pitou's. And there are people who can even become specialization users....

    Nobunaga is an enhancer and he was similar to kuroro in terms of strength though. Physical strength depends on how much physical training you do, enhancement comes to play after that. Strength is by no means an inherent trait to enhancers. Uvogin was physical strong because his trained himself to be like that because it was convenient to his hatsu. His insane physical strength plus the strength of his aura plus his hatsu would make for a fearsome power. If he didn't train his body to be that strong his hatsu would have suffered. Actual strength is completely unrelated to nen type, its only and specifically when enhancement hatsus(where something specific would be enhanced with the full might of their ken presumably and on top of that receive a determination bonus) are used that a difference would be felt. Overall if we have 2 people who are exactly the same when it comes to physical strength but different nen type we have the following:

    for enhancer:
    KO= entire aura + physical strength + determination boost
    For non enhancer
    KO= 80% (or less) of aura + physical strength


    Now, lets assume we have gon's stats for each one except for the enhancement type for the second. Since physical strength is the same we can ignore it at large as they would cancel each other out. So we have

    1.- KO = 1800 + 200= 2000
    2.- KO = 1440

    Still, that only works when hatsu and actual enhancement techniques come into play. Other than that there is no reason for a non enhancer to be inherently physically weaker than an enhancer. Provided hatsus are not involved there is no reason at all for a non enhancer to even be at a disadvantage against an enhancer.


    Some characters have displayed the ability to stop their bleeding however I would argue things won't necessarily be that simple when it comes to shizuku's ability. Its one thing to stop their bleeding on their own and it would be another to stop their bleeding when their blood is being targeted by a nen ability. Shizuku did make the point that the spider could have used his web to cover himself however whether something like that would be an issue would vary between cases IMO.

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    Re: I have two questions about Nen/Ren

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    The point about Gon's transformation is crazy abilities are hardly only in the domain of non Reinforcement users. Gon has the craziest special ability we've seen so far. Netero's move, while not exactly 'creative', is also extremely hard to defend against and not what you'd expect from a Reinforcement user.
    It's specialization. You could equally say that a conjuration user suddenly came up with specialization nen because of say, childhood trauma, that made him damn strong. It is also unclear what domain Netero's statue belongs to (clearly not reinforcement, either emission or specialization). But specialization is by definition extremely exceptional. The only reinforcement user who utilizes other nen schools so far is Gon.

    My point about the injyuu fight is that even in aspects that are clearly in the domain of reinforcement, somebody of manipulation school (Boar) was able to somehow best Uvo in a limited way. I guess you could say that the nen system wasn't fully developed/conceived at that point in the arc but then where do you draw the line with what's canonically shown in the manga?

    Figuring out your opponent's nen ability is critical because one wrong move could screw you up in serious ways, considering the fact that nen abilities are only limited by the imagination. Of course they must be balanced but the big problem is that there are plenty of abilities that are extremely debilitating. Considering the fact that you can get borked in HxH by poison, status effects seem to bypass Ken (electricity, chain jail, shoot's ability?) and the human body is extremely fragile relative to the force capable of being exerted by Nen (such that a slight misallocation of Nen = dismemberment) it seems pretty critical even for a fighter with superior Ken to be extremely alert that they don't get blind sided by something they didn't see coming.

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