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Translations: Gintama 506 (2)
While strength is not an inherent property of any school you can be pretty sure that arm wrestling strength chart for the Spiders is certainly the ranking when everyone is using aura. With the exception of Kuroro (Specialization) and Nobunaga (Reinforcement) the chart falls neatly into exactly each person's relative position to the Reinforcement school. Unless a person is especially physically strong or weak, you can't get around this limitation by just training harder. If you use Ubogin versus Kurapika, assuming both have same base physical stats (if anything, after seeing the Kurta tribe heritage you can argue Kurapika may have better physical stats), so you got Ubogin using Big Bang (100% level, 100% strength) versus Kurapika defending with Emperor time (60% of level, 100% strength) and the result is that Kurapika broke his arm while defending. Now, assuming level and strength is linear, then 60%level * 100% strength (60) is basically the same as 80% level * 80% strength (64). This basically means there's no way to defend against a Reinforcement user's Hatsu without taking significant damage if you're not one. Gon's Jajaken is another perfect example of this, as it's never been defended successfully by any human character except Razor (indirectly), who is way more powerful than Gon.
Now let's say you got Feitan or Hisoka fighting Ubogin. Because Ubogin has the highest physical attack and defense in his tier, there's nothing clever you can do damage-wise to get around that. There's basically no chance you'll beat him without Hatsu. Despite the portrayal of Reinforcement users as more or less braindead, that's simply a plot device. Again people are really misled by Gon's ability to figure out the opponent's ability. It only works because he's never going to die so he has all the time in the world to figure this stuff out. This isn't Bleach when your opponent gives you a nice overview of exactly what his ability does so you'll know exactly what to do. Unlike Bleach or similar manga, aura doesn't really do anything super amazing. You're not going to hit someone and then that say: "My ability reflects 100% of damage back to user and now you're dead!" (note: Pain Packer sort of does this but is extremely delayed). Even hax abilities in HXH aren't that hax compared to most manga, so you don't have to worry about anything that crazy. In the above hypothetical matchup, either someone like Hisoka will be forced to use Hatsu first while Ubogin is still in an unharmed state (because you're not going to hurt him with basic moves), or you'll be receiving a Big Bang while you're in a vulnerable state (Ubogin gains an upper hand with basic moves and attempt to finish you off in one hit). Both are very bad situations to be in. Sure you can strategize about faking a weakness or whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that you're always operating from a disadvantageous position and that there's no reason to believe the Reinforcement user is supposed to be less experienced or dumber than you when it's not demanded by the plot.
If the Reinforcement user's Hatsu can at least break your arm, he can be pretty sure that's got to be a decent trade unless his opponent has an absolutely crazy ability, and it's not really possible to try to figure out abilities on par with Emperor Time. Also, it's implied using any ability requires significant concentration and you've to be in a good state generally. So if you break someone's arm, their ability to retaliate is limited not only physically but also mentally due to the trauma/pain. I mean the two major battle where a Reinforcement is bested (Kastro and Ubogin) basically all involve the two said users apparently never heard that keeping Gyo on is a good idea. If they took Biscuit's aura 101 class then Hisoka would already be dead, and Kurapika might be too, though he might be able to manage since Emperor Time is still totally broken.
Last edited by Phantron; July 05, 2013 at 12:55 PM.
If the chart includes nen then things get particularly muddled up though. Nen would to begin with enhance physical strength so physical strength would have a huge role and the size of ren or ken would also determine who wins at large.
On the whole thing about defending from either uvo's or gon's attack, I completely agree with you. If anything I talked about that earlier in pretty much the same way you did. However the fact of the matter is that the whole thing is not nearly as much of a limitation as you think. It is true it is basically impossible to defend from an enhanced attack without taking damage however on the other hand there are plenty of things to offset that so as to not make it even remotely as invincible as you say. For starters a ko from an enhancer does leave the user exposed as ko invariably requires all the aura, no more no less. For another, ko would at large work as an ordinary attack. Therefore it can be dodged as an ordinary attack. Gon has generally been extremely careful about using his rock for a reason, it is a great power but it is also a huge liability for him. Uvo would have had precisely the same issue invariably. Overall simple enhances attacks are powerful but they are far from invincible as ultimately others would have their own hatsu to respond with.
As far as the mental state thing that is to begin with a highly variable situation between fighters. In an extreme case mentally breaking them down is not an option (hisoka did not break down after loosing two arms). Generally It takes quite a shock to actually get a fully trained nen user to this state though.
For defending against Ko-like attacks, there's no reason that Reinforcement users are extra stupid. When Ubogin used his Big Bang, he created a diversion first to ensure that it'll connect. Now what if Kurapika saw through it and just back off to a safe distance? Then Ubogin wouldn't use his Big Bang either. The Reinforcement user always gets to dictate the tempo against an equal tier non Reinforcement user. They'll either use their Hatsu when they perceive to have a very good advantage, or they'd be able to simply use Ken and force the enemy to use Hatsu first by wearing them down. Sure you can still lose but it's as big an advantage as you can expect fighting an equal tier opponent. If Ubogin didn't magically forget to use Gyo (an unbelievably newbie mistake), then what'd happen is he'd obviously dodge the Chain Jail counter attack. Kurapika might still fix his arm anyway (though he might not have the opportunity to), but you'd assume the energy used in Big Bang has to be less than the energy needed to fix your arm. If that's not true there's no way you can win anyway. Now Emperor Time is pretty hax so Kurapika might still win in the long run, but in that particular exchange Ubogin is not going to come out behind if he didn't somehow forget to use Gyo.
I think whether you can use your ability depends on the complexity of the ability too. For example Hisoka says Kastro cannot use his clone ability while he's already injuried because that ability requires significant conconcentration. Likewise we see that Gon's Jajaken dissapiates in power if someone hit him in the middle of charging up. Hisoka's ability is pretty weak so he can probably always keep his concentration even while sustaining serious damage, but there's plenty of evidence that hard hitting abilities pretty much cannot be interrupted.
Let's say that Ubogin was fighting Kuroro, who just teleported Ubogin away as he charges up with a Big Bang and then stab him with a poisoned knife and killed him. So you say you shouldn't attack someone until you figured out their ability, but how do you figure this ability out? He sure wasn't able to use it against Silva when Silva attempted to finish him off, so there's also some restriction to that ability that we do not know of. If your opponent has an instant kill ability you're not going to be able to 'figure it out' anyway, and anything less than instant kill you might as well trade hits and just hope it's in your favor, which it should be because Reinforcement has the highest physical attack/defense by definition. Ubogin didn't just use Big Bang whenever he feels like it. He uses it when he's pretty sure it will finish the enemy off. He can be wrong but there's no reason to believe his judgment is especially bad. Even Kastro gets this simple concept as you can see both time when he went all out he went for an arm. If he didn't also failed to use Gyo like Ubogin, he'd easily see through Hisoka's tricks and really, how is Hisoka supposed to come back from both arms down just because he's got some aura sticking on Kastro's chin? Remember Kastro is likely physically stronger (due to being Reinforcement) so he can just grab the bungee gum and break it by force.
Last edited by Phantron; July 05, 2013 at 07:51 PM.
---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------
Also I don't understand why your saying Knuckles ability is useless against an enhancement user. Theirs no reason to think that any enhancement user can beat Knuckles just bcuz they are an enhancer. Knuckles ability is way more complex to just automatically lose to all enhancers. There are so many different factors in a fight with him like aura control, speed, power, durability, etc. Its not as easy as just saying oh well I'm an enhancer so that means i get an auto-win. Nen is way more complex than that.
---------- Post added at 01:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------
---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------
---------- Post added at 01:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------
The hatsu percentages have nothing to do with combat. They are just indicators of how efficient your nen usage can be in each category. I made a theory about it on this forum here.
That seems a bit far from the concensus here so far. Overall nothing in the manga actually suggests rock or uvo's big bang punch are in any discernible way different from just ordinary ko. Overall the definitions of their techniques are the precise definition of ko.Quote:
Why do people always bring the old 'Aura is complicated', which is basically means 'plot device trumps actual system'? There's nothing complicated about aura relative to combat. The school ranking is strictly Reinforcement >> Emission >> everything else. There's no inherent equality amongst the schools because the aura system is a system of the world, not a system of combat. The world of HXH is not just about fighting. Even in the Hunter's Association we see plenty of political intrigue and subterfuge. Reinforcement wouldn't do much good at getting you more votes in the Election Arc, and no one should be surprised by that. If you need a plastic surgery you wouldn't get much help from Reinforcement either. The attacks by powerful characters are weighted toward Reinforcement and Emission because they're the most effective kind of attacks. That's why Zeno, a Transformation user, uses mostly Emission attacks because throwing fireballs at people from range is a very effective way to kill someone safely. Just because Hisoka gets pretty much unlimited plot bailout to justify that bubble gum is an awesome killing power doesn't mean the other characters in HXH gets the same treatment.
Now if the story shifted to Miluki's quest to become the king of the gaming world where the ability to use aura to control your online avatar via manipulation is paramount, that probably wouldn't sell very well. But in the world of HXH, being the king of the gaming world can be just as important as fighting lawbreaking criminals. The world is not supposed to be focus just on fighting. The aura system is a system of the world. If you're a Reinforcement you're very powerful at certain kind of tasks you'd be expected to do in the world of HXH (like fighting) but not on other things (like using a computer), and we can see that in HXH that you're not inherently more valuable just because you can smash walls compared to someone who can hack into a network.
Well, the only actual emission attack zeno has used is the one he used to destroy the kings palace a while back. What he did against kuroro is not actually emission as far as we saw. Technically speaking emission is about separating aura from your body and having it maintain its strength. Zeno never did loose contact with his aura, he was connected to it all along and controlled it with his hand movements.
The whole thing about unlimited plot bailout makes no sense. You are basically using that at your own convenience to just discredit anything we see from the guy. Ultimately the fact of the matter is that combat in HH does not turn around enhancers, all schools are ultimately effective at combat.
Biscuit's "transformation" does not look into the future. Big Biscuit is her original form, she just shrunk herself with manipulation ala Illumi changing his body shape and face to Hisoka's during York Shin.
Inside a certain object? That would be Shu. Are you saying Enhancers only have an edge when they use weapons? That can't be right. In Heaven's Arena, Hisoka praised the durability of Gon's Ten, remarking that he could see why he was an Enhancer. Seems to me that this implies that Enhancers have stronger Ten, Gyo, Ken, etc. Of course, the schools aside, there are still individual differences.Quote:
Wing even said that an Enhancer doesn't need a specialty technique (hatsu) - they can just focus on their aura. But if reinforcement confers no advantage to the basic usage of aura in combat, then what the hell was Wing talking about? And Enhancers would be seriously screwed since they would be useless at everything other than healing.Quote:
This is as simple as it gets on the matter. Bisk specifically calls what will eventually be gon's rock ko. Hatsu has the benefit of really being just about anything the user specializes in....
People are too fixiated on explictly imposed conditions. The world of HXH rewards you for any implicit condition as well. For example Franklin cut off his fingers to do his aura machine gun. It's specifically said that he did NOT thought of this as a condition to power himself up, but just something he thought was right. This nevertheless gave him an extra power boost because it shows his resolve (cut off your own fingers). Kite's Hatus has its power boosted by the fact that the choice is random. It doesn't matter if he thought of it as an explicit condition or that he just thought having a random ability is cool. Aura is all-knowing and you can't cheat it, and it also doesn't forget to reward you if you meet the right criterias.
Likewise Ko has a ton of resolve and restriction. You basically die if you get hit while you're using Ko except for the one spot you put your aura in, and you also die if you get hit for a short period after you use it (it's clear your aura cannot regenerate instantly after using Ko). If not for plot immunity both Gon and Feitan would be totally dead from the risk you must take. We know Zetsu against any amount of aura is basically suicide, so Zanza's emission attack should've just made a hole in Feitan's upper body and killing him. Likewise when Gon got knocked back by Razor's ball, what should've happened is the his lower body is unprotected by aura and the sheer force would separate his upper body from his lower body and he'd be dead. The only reason this didn't happen is because the plot prevents this from happening. If you go by the definition of Zetsu, there's no way a part of you in Zetsu can possibly defend against any kind of aura-based attack. Outside of Gon literally throwing his life away regardless of what happens in the fight against Pitou, none of the so-called 'restriction' is comparable to the risk one must take to use Ko. Ko is the ultimate Reinforcement Hatsu. Its destuctive power is absolutely unrivaled.
Now why do Reinforcement users have other Hatsu besides Ko? Because the risk of Ko is extremely high to the point it's not practical use without plot immunity. If the enemy dodges it, you're dead. If they didn't instantly die after taking your Ko, you're dead. If they hit you anywhere while you're attacking, you're dead. From Biscuit's training we can see that Ko has a rather distinctive give-away, which means if the enemy sees you use Ko, they can immediately do some kind of area effect attack and generally at least get a double KO, and a free kill if they managed to hit you first.
But for Gon, janken is surely more meaningful conceptually and psychologically to him than Ko. Same with Franklin. This is something absent from the raw manipulation of aura although it may very well happen to inherit meaning of its own i.e. Uvogin's Big Bang Impact which is presumably just Ko. This is added to the fact that the user typically elects to use Ko in circumstances when he feels that he is absolutely certain to score a direct hit (c.f. Gon) reducing the risk-reward-dynamic/resolve.
Only Feitan has shown how to use Ko in a relatively safe situation (he's clearly not expecting his opponent to take a Ko head on). Gon gets out of it with plot bailouts, though because it takes more plot bailout he eventually switches to a technique that requires less plot bailout, as janken does not have the 'you die if anyone hits you' implicit restriction, and because getting hit while using janken doesn't get you killed there's no way this technique can be as strong as Ko. Well, there is a time delay aspect, and depending on how you interpret it, that could be a significant or irrelevent restriction, though the manga leans it more toward the restriction being irrelevent. For example, against Knuckles he was able to use it twice in a row (paper then rock) in a very short time, so it seems like Gon can ignore this restriction whenever he feels like it, so it must not be very important.