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How are the requirements for chain jail lower than ko? ko does not have limitations beyond the normal risks of the technique to begin with. Chain jail can only be used on ryodan members. So.... thats about 13 people in the entire world and all of them are extremely high level nen users. Of course on top of that you add the fact that kurapica will die if he uses it on someone who is not a member of the ryodan and his sheer hatred for the lot of them.
Gon didn't really get to ignore the limitations of rock. In fact knuckle took advantage of them and lectured gon over it. Knuckle was never really at risk from ko and gon took a rather miserable defeat. Heck, knuckle was so much stronger than gon that when the fight started gon went numb just from taking a hit even though his ken was up. The only reason the fight even lasted that long was because knuckle used his hatsu instead of just proceeding to beat the everloving crap out of gon. If knuckle had made of just defeating gon he probably would have one shoted him from the start. Its not that the time thing was irrelevant either, gon simply used the techniques in ways knuckle did not expect. The manga literally made the point that gon was taking advantage of the limitations of his technique to catch knuckle off guard. Its completely different from the weaknesses of the technique being irrelevant solely for gon.
Ko is not overkill. Ko is just concentrating 100% of the aura around your body in a particular part, no more and no less. The strength of your Ko depends on the quantity of aura you have around your body and how good you are at using Enhancement (which depends on how close your category is to Enhancement and on your training). Even if Ko is really risky, using it don't grant you any kind of power boost. The conditions system only work for Hatsu, and Ko is not a Hatsu, it's a mere basic move. Biscuit never mentionned any kind of power boost when she explained how Ko works to Gon and Killua, and that's the kind of thing no self-respecting Nen master would omit.
Uvogin, for instance, doesn't have any Hatsu. Even though he gave his Ko a fancy name, like Machi said it's still a punch with aura. Uvogin proves what Wing told Gon : Enhancers don't need any special techniques because they can use basic moves better than people from other categories. Of course, since Uvogin has mastered Enhancement and can produce incredible amounts of aura, his Ko is incredibly powerful, but it's just a Ko. However, Gon's Rock has another (implicit) condition to it : saying the "first comes rock" thing without moving. That's a pretty huge condition, and that's why his Rock is more powerful than his Ko should be.
Last edited by Django; July 09, 2013 at 02:10 PM.
He was deeply afraid of it because he sensed that it was totally different from Bisquits transformation...
I have the impression that you consider you have to impose conditions to use Ko. Ko is just an advanced Nen technique, the risks are the same for everyone, it's because of her better use of aura that Zazan hurt Feitan. But yeah, Ko is more powerful with Enhancers and when you are not an Enhancer yourself Ko is pretty much a OHKO against opponents of the same level. Let's say Gon and Killua use Ko, the risks are the same but for Gon who is an Enhancer is Ko is boosted.
@mousiehamster: I don't see the difference between Rock and Big Bang Impact. It's the same thing they just use Ko, simple and effective. But Gon decided to use 2 other categories. The only difference I see between those two is that Rock takes more time to charge, or maybe it's because of their Nen mastery.
@Phantron: I don't think Gon managed to overcome Rock's weaknesses via plot armor. Because of its versatility, Jajanken has not the same inconvenient than Big Bang Impact. For Uvo, BBI is his only trump card when he attacks he needs to use some of his aura to protect himself. But Gon can charge his attack to the maximum, lure you and hit you with another move. Before he overcame his weaknesses he only used Rock in his death match against Genthru and Rammot( I don't count the battle with Razor because he was not alone) and in all those situations, his opponents were not able to counterattack.
I must add that Rock has been described as a move which "scares" his opponent. Even a collected opponent would be agitated after have seen this move.
Well, in gons case his ken is only 1800 but the amount of power of his ko is over 2000. So yeah, for an enhancer a ko can exceed 100% so to speak. Uvogin presumably goes through something similar. Enhancers are dangerous precisely because of this overall. Defense is complicated because similar opponents who are not enhancers won't be able to block ko even with their own ko. Conditions and determination do not have to explicitly imposed so to speak. Nothing about what makes gon's rock exceed 100% is intentional at all. The amount of time he takes charging, foregoing his defense.... both are the result of how his technique works and his own inexperience. Well, nothing will ever solve the defense part considering ko involves concentrating all of your ken into your fist however the slow charging time should be solved with proper training since gon even today is absolutely terrible and overall a novice at controlling his aura (there is no reason for him to have improved since he trained with knuckle since since then he has been forced into zetsu by knuckle, fighting the ants and then dealing with the consequences of his transformation). Of course once the time thing is solved the technique should be even stronger considering the amount of time it would have taken for him to develop it to that stage. The countless hours he would have trained for it would count in his favor so to speak.
As for uvogin, his big bang punch counts as a hatsu. The entire point of enhancers is that they can use simple techniques to the maximum. A simple punch with aura in the end counts as a legitimate hatsu. It is just a ko but at the same time it is a completely legitimate hatsu and it enjoys the benefit of being one.
And you're right when you say conditions don't need to be explicit (Gon never said : "I'm gonna put a condition to my Rock to make it stronger") but it still needs to be intentional. It's about showing one's resolve. Any weakness to a Hatsu which is not self-imposed doesn't make it stronger. And Gon will never be able to charge his technique faster, because it's not charging Ko that takes time, it's saying the chant.
Nowhere has it been said gon has to be immobile while charging rock though. He does it that way but on the other hand there is the issue that even today gon is still at large a novice at the whole nen thing. If gon was anything but a novice with rock he would be able to do it anytime at large. Of course there can be some differences as to how someone uses a given technique but nothing about rock is ultimately set in stone. Even saying gon needs to make the chant is not necessarily true as that is merely something gon liked to do more than a pledge with actual consequences.
Big Bang and Rock are all weaker version of Ko because neither of them satisfies the 'dies if you get hit at all' criteria. Again don't let the plot bailouts make Ko look like a technique you can recover from. It's not recoverable by definition because you cannot fight anyone remotely close to your level while in Zetsu. If Big Bang is Ko then Ubogin wouldn't even be able to attempt to break Chain Jail because he'd already be in Zetsu from using Ko. Likewise we see Gon gets hit quite a few times while in Janken which means it cannot be Ko because he'd have died.
Comparing restriction of Ko to say, Chain Jail. Using it on Spiders is not a significant restriction. Kurapika's master said that. If it was, then anytime you lose to someone you'd just learn an ability that only works on that guy. The dying part isn't really that big of a deal because the only way this would normally matter is if Kurapika caught a Spider and they say something like: "Please forgive me! I'll quit the Spiders!" But if you know anything about Spiders you know they're not that kind of people, so the fact the Chain Jail might be vulnerable if Spiders are cowards do not really matter because you know ahead of time that almost all the Spiders are fearless and would never betray the group just to save themselves. If Kurapika didn't pull a "Let me talk about my ability for no reason" it's quite possible the Spiders are still completely clueless as to how he got his power. Compared to that, the risk of Ko is well-known. Everyone remotely decents knows what a Ko is and where the weakness is. Even if you connect a hit, you might still die on a counterattack because you're defenseless after using Ko.
I guess some people believe if you make a "Ko Hatsu" it obviously has to do way more damage than Ko because you called it a Hatsu. It's still Ko. Just like you really don't need 'indestructible chains that puts enemy in Zetsu' when you can have 'chains that paralyze', you don't need Ko when you have moves like Big Bang or Rock. The latter is strictly weaker than the former but since since very few people can take the latter Hatsus at all, you don't need an attack that hits twice as hard but has significant drawbacks when a Big Bang is more than enough to knock out almost anyone. So why use Ko? Well Ko definitely comes out near instantly, so you can always use it as a last ditch effort or if you're absolutely sure the other guy can't avoid it (Feitan is the only person who has shown a lot of forethought on when to use Ko).
Gon's janken is mostly consistent except for the final time he used it on Knuckles, where he did a paper and a rock back to back, completely negating the restriction of janken needs time to charge. Yes he burns twice the AP to do that, but rock is a one hit kill move against equal tier opponent (Knuckles is considerably above Gon, and it's said that Gon could've killed Morel if he went all out when Morel wanted to test him). From what Knuckles say someone like Morel have around 70K AP, so using 4000 AP basically instantly kills an opponent around your level. Where's the balance in that? It's that not using 2000 AP to instant kill someone itself is overpowered. It's that under random circumstances this move comes out instantly which renders its weakness irrelevent.
Last edited by Phantron; July 09, 2013 at 11:19 PM.
If Ko is weaker than most Hatsu, why does it even exist? Does Feitan just have a deathwish when he used it on Zanza? It's one technique that is far more likely to get you killed due to its insane restrictions, and yet it's not as powerful as the common Hatsu? At any rate, risk is not a positive thing in HXH, just like taking a risky bond in real life is usually a bad idea. It's pretty clear the benefit of risk quickly bottoms out. Shalunark said to defeat Ubogin all you need is 'chains that paralyzes/sleeps'. For all the additional risks Kurapika took, he didn't get chains that automatically locks on the nearest Spider while shooting lasers. Chain Jail is effectively no better than 'chain that paralyzes/sleeps' despite needing significantly higher risk. I think it's funny people talk about how conditions are important in Hatsu and yet turn around and talk about how Hisoka is awesome. His technique has no real conditions or risk associated with it. It's basically just an extension of his physical power, as the power of the bungee gum is limited by his physical power.
The strongest guys do not need to take risks because they're already capable of beating everyone normally and have no reason to take on additional risk. Taking risk is for the weak guys who cannot beat people normally. By the way, Gon only takes risks because he's usually weak relative to his opponents. If you look at his transformed version, there's nothing risky about any of his moves when he just launches you to midair with any of his normal attacks and then charge up whatever he wants while you're falling to your doom.
Since combat generally still involves doing the most physical damage, this is why Reinforcement users don't really need special Hatsus, because they already do more damage than anybody and would have no reason to take unnecessary risks. What risk does Razor take for using any of his techniques?
hey... even super sayan gon took all the risks of his rock... he said every time he punched pitoh his enchantments. if pitoh was a more experienced nen user she could have had easily avoided gon's attack even in his super form. even so he was pretty fucking fast. I really found fishy that she couldn't move after receiving the kick... but probably gon didn't even need his hatsu to defeat her at that time and with that kick she was pretty much bad damaged already.
pitoh is a girl... and... even tsetsugera could do some jumping stuff
What does breaking from chain jail have to do with anything? Uvo never attempted his big bang punch while in it, all he could do was try to break it with his physical strength and that is exactly what he did.
Kurapica's master's point was precisely that the ability was too limited. It could only be used on 13 people in the entire world. I don't think developing an ability is that easy though. The whole thing with pledges and conditions is related to mental state and determination at large, if you could change the targets of your ability then the bonuses you would get from the condition and the pledge would not be too strong. In kurapica's particular case, if he ever uses his chain jail against a non ryodan member he would die from the judgement chain in his heart in particular, he actually can't change the rules at all even if he wants to. He would need a nen remover and even then he would probably loose his hatsu altogether from doing that.
There was never a fixed charged time for rock at all, that is simply the result of gon being inexperienced with nen. We have seen plenty of characters use ko instantly, its a matter of gon mastering the movement of nen around his body.
Then you ask : why does Ko exist if it is weaker than most Hatsu ? Well, that's the point. The moment Ko was introduced, it was said to be extremely unpractical. We only see three people using Ko over the course of the entire series in an offensive fashion. Feitan used it because he saw an opportunity, because he got cocky (he even wasted the time to taunt Zazan before attacking, giving her all the time needed to defend herself) and because his Hatsu would have been useless since he hadn't been hurt. Gon and Uvogin use it because they are Enhancers, which means they can use basic (and relatively simple) moves better than others. And even they don't use it left and right, but only when they have an opportunity because they know and acknowledge the risks. Obviously, if Razor was to form a Nen ball with 100% of his aura, it would be more powerful than his Ko because he's an Emitter. If Killua was to use 100% of his aura in a big lighting bolt, it would be more powerful than his Ko because he's a Transmuter. The risks you take using Ko are irrelevant, they don't give you any power boost, because if they did, Biscuit would have explained it to Gon and Killua. But she didn't, which means they don't matter. It's only 100% of your aura, unless you give it another condition. That's what Gon did with his Rock.
And what does Hisoka have to do with any of this ? No one ever said an ability needs to have conditions to be powerful. Some people use conditions. Some don't. Simple as that. Kurapika has a powerful ability because he put huge conditions to it (and these ARE huge conditions. He can use his Chain Jail on 13 people in the entire world, and he dies if he doesn't respect that rule. If anyone remotely strong decides to attack him, to steal his license for instance, or if the Troupe decides to play it safe and hire the Zoldycks to kill him, he's as good as dead). Hisoka has a powerful ability (incredibly powerful I might add, it's just overkill) because he's powerful.
Last edited by Django; July 10, 2013 at 01:17 PM.