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Thread: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

  1. #16
    The Green Knight MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Gats's Avatar
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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    The only explanation I find about the Senju being able to resist to the Sharingan genjutsu (based on the manga material) is that their chakra can't be handled easily. Remember that genjutsu is all about manipulating your opponent's chakra. The simple fact that Hashirama has been able to break out Oro's control or the fact that Tobirama couldn't break out because of Hashirama's cells (hence chakra) is a big hint towards that, even though you can justify it in many ways. It's possible to think that trying to manipulate a pure senju's chakra is like trying to divert a stream of water with your body.

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  3. #17
    Reviewer 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member otomo20's Avatar
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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gats View Post
    The only explanation I find about the Senju being able to resist to the Sharingan genjutsu (based on the manga material) is that their chakra can't be handled easily. Remember that genjutsu is all about manipulating your opponent's chakra. The simple fact that Hashirama has been able to break out Oro's control or the fact that Tobirama couldn't break out because of Hashirama's cells (hence chakra) is a big hint towards that, even though you can justify it in many ways. It's possible to think that trying to manipulate a pure senju's chakra is like trying to divert a stream of water with your body.
    That is a good explanation but when people talk about senju DNA they usually mean Hashirama's DNA and not just any random senju, I dont think they all had that special ability.

  4. #18
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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    Quote Originally Posted by otomo20 View Post
    That is a good explanation but when people talk about senju DNA they usually mean Hashirama's DNA and not just any random senju, I dont think they all had that special ability.
    I'm taking Hasirama's example because he is the only one who brought material to discuss in the manga. He may be the pinnacle of the Senju, it wouldn't change what I say about the mecanism, only its level might. Even if it was a "lesser" Senju the same principle should apply, less strongly probably but have in mind that the Uchiha clan is not only made of genius or strong chakra ninja like Madara, Sasuke or Itachi, they are still the exceptions within their clan as Hashirama seemed to be. So you don't need to be Hashirama to give enough trouble to a more regular Uchiha as long as you are a Senju.

    Besides, if I remember correctly, not every Uchiha could awaken the Sharingan, right ? Or at least not everyone could when they were still child, so we still have to assume that not everyone in battle had their Sharingan or not a completed one in some case.

  5. #19
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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    well itachi wasnt a bad guy, or he could have killed

    kakashi (part 1 kakashi even asked "why doesnt he kill me")
    naruto (at least twice in part 2)
    possibly jaraiya (definitely with kisames help in part 1)
    sasuke (in part 1 and in part 2)
    oro (in the flashback)

    id say itachi could habe killed anyone he fought

    so chiyo may not have been that far off

    itachi just believed in peace

  6. #20
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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xrayz0r View Post
    Remember the Itachi Kisame arc? Also, the save Gaara arc when Itachi's clone showed up, Itachi's flashback of Oro's bodysteal jutsu and Sasuke's comment to Oro during the same jutsu? Apparently there's a whole manual going around in the ninja world on how to fight a Sharingan user. "Don't fight one when you're one your own", "all your jutsu are useless before these eyes".

    Sure the Senju may have awesome life force and stamina, but how do you "outlast" being stabbed while under a genjutsu? How do you counter the fact that your own jutsu are being copied and turned against you (which can be done as long as the Sharingan user is at about the same level or higher, take Kakashi vs Zabuza)? Kishi has failed to provide any answer to this. He has done too much Sharingan hyping in the past and now he's stuck with a clan that is supposedly superior to Uchiha yet without any justifiable explanation for it. Yes you can claim "Senju never fought alone", but don't tell me they constantly had to disrupt eachother's chakra flows while Uchiha were casting genjutsu all over the place.

    By analogy, the senju are all about having the bigger car. Bigger tank, one that lasts longer. Winning the race that way. Uchiha, at least as far as the evidence available to us (Itachi and Sasuke), relatively small chakra capacities, they tire quickly, they make up for it with nifty tricks. Stealth, genjutsu without you realizing it, copying, turning your own jutsu against you. They're not about having the bigger car, they're about sabotaging the opponent's car (hence, Oro can have the awesomest jutsu and chakra capacity, it makes no difference before Itachi). Unless Kishi starts explaining how large stamina or even awesome jutsu can help with not being killed while under genjutsu that is incredibly easy to cast and hard to notice and without a Bijuu inside to help out, I'm calling BS.

    Also, why hasn't he said shit about the whole copy thing in ages? It's all about MS nowadays. It's kinda like kaio-ken suddenly not being "a thing" anymore after we turn super sayan.
    Actually, Kishi has done pretty well explaining this at least. We were told from the very beginning that only a handful of the clan was capable of awakening the Sharingan, meaning that most of the clan was basically even with their Senju counterparts. Only a handful would have been a threat via genjutsu and copying. Later on we learnt that around the time when the Senju clan began to overtake the Uchiha clan, that was when MS/EMS was first discovered and that discovery lead to a massive number of deaths. So it's not hard to assume that the Uchiha clan began to lose to the Senju clan due to the killing of the already small number of Sharingan-wielders. Then we learnt about the Izanagi/Izanami conflict, which again involved the handful of Sharingan-wielders being blinded/killed.

    So from what we have been told, it wasn't so much that the Senju clan were superior as it was the Uchiha clan was becoming their own worst enemy, and basically being hit from two sides. Thus the reason that once MS/EMS and Izanagi were forbidden, they return to being so powerful, that they could even threaten an entire village.

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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Actually, Kishi has done pretty well explaining this at least. We were told from the very beginning that only a handful of the clan was capable of awakening the Sharingan, meaning that most of the clan was basically even with their Senju counterparts. Only a handful would have been a threat via genjutsu and copying. Later on we learnt that around the time when the Senju clan began to overtake the Uchiha clan, that was when MS/EMS was first discovered and that discovery lead to a massive number of deaths. So it's not hard to assume that the Uchiha clan began to lose to the Senju clan due to the killing of the already small number of Sharingan-wielders. Then we learnt about the Izanagi/Izanami conflict, which again involved the handful of Sharingan-wielders being blinded/killed.

    So from what we have been told, it wasn't so much that the Senju clan were superior as it was the Uchiha clan was becoming their own worst enemy, and basically being hit from two sides. Thus the reason that once MS/EMS and Izanagi were forbidden, they return to being so powerful, that they could even threaten an entire village.
    this is why the uchiha are considered a cursed clan

    they gain power by killing eachother off

    or taking eachothers eyes

  8. #22
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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    That's not the reason. According to Tobirama, they're too emotional when it comes to the death of their family/friends, which is the bases for gaining MS as far as we've seen. And the Izanagi/Izanami situation shows differently, as they were sacrificing their own sight to keep their comrades from going out of control and made said technique forbidden. So it's more like simply a portion of the clan was power hungry and the rest opposed them.

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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    I just rewatched the sasuke vs itachi fight

    before they fought itachi explained why the uchiha were a cursed clan

    now i dont disagree with anything you posted

    because when itachi explaoned how izanami worked to sasuke during the fight with kabuto
    he agreed with tobiramas reasoning

    but i guess its acceptable to just agree that the uchihas are unfortunat because they do have ridiculous power and capacity to obtain even more ridiculous power

    however the higher level power all comes at a very high price

  10. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    Exactly.

    The father's killed their sons for power.
    An uchiha killed his best friend for power.

    No wonder, itachi called his clan a pathetic clan. All they want is power, and with that, they're being annihilated.

  11. #25
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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisame Hoshigaki View Post
    I just rewatched the sasuke vs itachi fight

    before they fought itachi explained why the uchiha were a cursed clan

    now i dont disagree with anything you posted

    because when itachi explaoned how izanami worked to sasuke during the fight with kabuto
    he agreed with tobiramas reasoning

    but i guess its acceptable to just agree that the uchihas are unfortunat because they do have ridiculous power and capacity to obtain even more ridiculous power

    however the higher level power all comes at a very high price
    Not sure how you got that from Itachi's story. The MS/EMS incident was a unique situation.

    And Tobirama's reasoning simply doesn't fly with everything we've seen, especially with the Izanagi situation which goes against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Exactly.

    The father's killed their sons for power.
    An uchiha killed his best friend for power.

    No wonder, itachi called his clan a pathetic clan. All they want is power, and with that, they're being annihilated.
    Noooo.

    There was no killing for power apart from the early time of discovery with MS/EMS. Even Tobirama acknowledged that. And had they wanted power, then they wouldn't have gone out of their way to suppress their emotions and forbid things like Izanagi and MS/EMS.

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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    According to itachis story about ems/ms

    thousands were sacrificed

    and even more death to discover how to make regular MS emerge

    that doednt mean all uchihas were power hungry warmongerers it just means alot of them were

  13. #27
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    I highly doubt they were warmongers, more like they thought ends justified the means. If the Uchiha were obsessed with war, then they never would have agreed to make peace with Senju or stay peaceful even after Tobirama segregating them. Guess they were after power to protect or win the war, which could be due to Madara's orders.

  14. #28
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    Quote Originally Posted by otomo20 View Post
    That is a good explanation but when people talk about senju DNA they usually mean Hashirama's DNA and not just any random senju, I dont think they all had that special ability.
    There is a reason why Hashirama and Tobirama were so powerful and feared. Many of the other Senju likely couldn't stand up to powerful genjutsu but the two of them could. That would explain why we don't know other powerful Senju other than Tsuande.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  15. #29
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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisame Hoshigaki View Post
    According to itachis story about ems/ms

    thousands were sacrificed

    and even more death to discover how to make regular MS emerge

    that doednt mean all uchihas were power hungry warmongerers it just means alot of them were
    No, it simply means that upon the discovery of a never before seen power, they wanted it too until it simply didn't become worth the cost.

    If "alot" of them were power-hungry warmongerers, then they wouldn't have been willing to risk their own eyesight stopping the abuse of Izanagi or forbid it, nor would they have suppressed their own emotions in order to make Konoha more at ease. They certainly wouldn't have been willing to surrender to the Senju clan or put up with crap Konoha put them through. Only a minority seem to have been a problem.

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    Re: What's all this bull**** about fighting an Uchiha?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I highly doubt they were warmongers, more like they thought ends justified the means. If the Uchiha were obsessed with war, then they never would have agreed to make peace with Senju or stay peaceful even after Tobirama segregating them. Guess they were after power to protect or win the war, which could be due to Madara's orders.
    well i meant before the whole treaty thing

    im not saying they are terrible people

    but i do believe the number of the uchiha who truly sought peace like shisui and itachi were few and far between

    ---------- Post added at 12:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    No, it simply means that upon the discovery of a never before seen power, they wanted it too until it simply didn't become worth the cost.

    If "alot" of them were power-hungry warmongerers, then they wouldn't have been willing to risk their own eyesight stopping the abuse of Izanagi or forbid it, nor would they have suppressed their own emotions in order to make Konoha more at ease. They certainly wouldn't have been willing to surrender to the Senju clan or put up with crap Konoha put them through. Only a minority seem to have been a problem.
    ok war mongerers is a stretch

    maybe only madara was that way

    but they were totally power hungry

    and they did kill and take eyes from many of their own kindred

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