No one is denying this. But unlike me, you people must have been aware that this is a shonen genre. I was not. These Ex Deus Machina interferences are bound to happen given the self-inflicted constraints.
The fighting and war wouldn't have been as great or frequent as it was before Konoha was established though. I'm not saying it's a definite thing, but just a possibility.
It's possible, but doesn't seem likely. In just sixty years, Konoha has faced three world wars and several smaller wars/invasions. Not to mention frequent things like the Chuunin Exam and missions, which can easily become fights to the death. So it seems like the fighting and wars were just as great and frequent as before.
well , village system only expand wars in bigger scale ... nothing more , nothing less ...
2 Uchiha Izanagi ready fighters would have a fight and they would eventualy have to use it.. That would make them lose eyes EVEN IF 1 WOULD WIN.
After Izanami was invented.
2 Uchiha Izanagi ready fighers would fight and they would NOT use Izanagi as they know full well the enemy can cast Izanami and get them killed (as you get traped in that shit for some time even if you accept "the truth"). End result? 1 leaves with both eyes.
Of course its not the ONLY applicantions and more reasons to be created... But they DID had Uchiha vs Uchiha fights. This is what is explaining your dilema.
Hell Izanagi can't even effect anything BUT your own personal space so asuming that 2 Uchiha where not fighting 1 another what reality could they be fighting over anyway? NOTHING....
Now 2 Uchiha fighting 1 another with both having Izanagi would involve the i hit you, not you did not, yes i did, no your did not and so on...
Take note the arrogant part and FOR THEMSELFS... You don't do that when you are fighting the enemy as a team. 2 Uchiha in Izanagi fighting an enemy would have NOTHING to fight over (reality)... That is why its not a problem if only 1 can do it.
As for the bolded part... Yeah arrogant and how they where using it to much for themselfs (Izanagi and what Itachi was saying).... Izanami was a deterrent like how i already explained. Nobody was using Izanami and trowing away the eyes to save another idiot. That just shows they where smart enough to find a way from idiots trowing away eyes. Nobody in a fight is going to use it knowing full well the target can cancel it with Izanami. You think in the middle of a fight someone is going to use Izanami and incapactiate 2 OF HIS COMRADES because aparently they where fighting over reality and get the entire team killed(as 2 targets/Uchiha are down by hitting them with Izanami and you are - 1 eye and doing NOTHING to the enemy)? How much sense does it make?
Hell Itachi just about spelled it out for you when he said that genjutsu does not work on people with the same eyes... Nobody is going to genjutsu and incapacitate his own comrade in the middle of a fight because they where to arrogant with Izanagi... It makes no bloody sense.
Last edited by xXan; June 19, 2013 at 08:59 AM.
Dude. Go to the next page. Itachi straight up tells you that "it's a technique invented to SAVE OTHER UCHIHA COMRADES from arrogance and procrastination." Izanagi effects your personal space, but when two Uchihas are within range of each other, they share the same common reality and space. Izanagi apparently doesn't only apply the changes to reality, but changes the reality around them completely, so simultaneously using Izanagi would create a conflict of which Izanagi's reality to keep. For instance, say two Uchihas, A and B, are next to each other and an arrow is shot at each of them. Both of them casting Izanagi to negate the one arrow shot at them would result in a conflict because Izanagi A's reality removes arrow A but keeps arrow B, and in Izanagi B's reality keeps arrow A and removes arrow B. They can't both be true, hence why Itachi says "they would be fighting over which results to use."
Its best you not even think about this and just accept it as is because Kishi did not think this one through at all, and is just complete bullshit that makes no sense what so ever. Izanami being a counter to Izanagi in itself is retarded because of how both jutsus worked. It is almost impossible to tell when Izanagi is used, and by the time it is, the reality is already changed. How do you possibly create the looping reality point A' in advance in the first place for Izanami to loop back to and cancel Izanagi. It's utter nonsense.
Last edited by chilibun; June 19, 2013 at 07:42 PM.
Exacly so lol... What did i keep telling you? Izanami is a deterrent so they don't use Izanagi... That is how they are "saved".Quote:
You just made up this entire thing with absolutly nothing in the manga to support any of it.Quote:
Let me tell you going by the manga what would happen going by your example. 1 of the 2 Uchiha's are going to be hit by said arrow and go POOF... Nothing else. Nothing else but this was demonstrated by the manga.
It is always best to think about it. We are thinking beings. When you can extrapolate 2 hypothesis but 1 makes 0 sense and its complete nonsense and the other makes perfect sense you use what makes perfect sense.Quote:
No Uchiha is going to incapacitate 1 of their allies in the middle of the fight and lose 1 eye because his team mate was arrogant... Good way of getting the entire team killed.
Going by what i told you this makes perfect sense. I can explain this easy.Quote:
If an Izanagi user was fighting an enemy (not Uchiha) then that guy would have NO idea if he is going to cast Izanagi. But when you are fighting another UCHIHA PART OF YOUR CLAN that you KNOW he has Izanagi and how it works then you just prep it beforehand and get ready to use it right before you land a finishing blow. Izanagi would be activated only when its life or death. Knowing this the target is not going to use Izanagi as he is going to know its of no use and he can get hit by Izanami. Izanami user would only lose an eye when he actualy casts it. The prep part is free of any cost (eyes).
Let's not forget that Danzo also demontrated you need handseals for Izanagi. So it would be clear before its cast. So its notice the handseals and activate Izanami... Dead enemy. Tobi could do it with no handseals but that guy was a Senju powered freak with perfect Izanagi (well just about perfect) lasting for some 10 minutes and not the brifest of moments.
Last edited by xXan; June 20, 2013 at 04:48 AM.
When more than one Izanagi is use, they "end up fighting over which results to use." What does that quote mean to you? One Izanagi effect is conflicting with another Izanagi effect, so they end up fighting over which one will succeed. Of course this was never demonstrated in the manga, because there has never been two Izangis used simultaneously, but Itachi tells you that's what happens.
Izanami is a "technique invented to save other Uchiha comrades from arrogance and procrastination. To stop people that tried to use the easy way to run away from results they created." Izanami was not created to fight against other Uchihas with Izanagi trying to kill them. It was used to save their own comrades from being from arrogance and procrastination. Instead of becoming stronger, faster, more prepared, and etc., Uchihas were getting over reliant on Izanagi, thinking they can just easily change reality and their fates. Izanmi is used to "teach people not to rely on jutsu... but to accept their own destiny." They wanted Uchihas to use their own true strength to dictate their destiny, and not just over rely on Izanagi to change it. Izanami was designed and intended to be used on fellow comrades to teach them the value of true strength and accepting their destiny, instead of being arrogant and lazy, thinking that they can easily use Izanagi to easily change and run away from their fates.
No, we don't need to be "over thinking" this because its clearly not thought out. I shouldn't have to make up a whole bunch of hot garbage just to justify Kishi's lack of reasoning. Sometimes a fail is a fail, and all you can do is accept it because Kishi said so. This is one of those times. Izanami is NOT a reality changing genjutsu. Izanagi is. Once Izanagi is activated and succeeds, reality is changed, and Izanami can't undo it. The only way Izanami can work is if it drags an Izanagi user into the loop before the change of reality takes effect thus canceling it. Like I said earlier, this make no sense because Izanami requires a replicating event and it has to occur exactly during when Izanagi is activated because it can only interrupt it and not actually undo its change in reality. So yea, realistically, that is nearly impossible to pull off considering there almost no way to tell when Izanagi is used much less having it be used exactly mimicking an earlier event.
As far as Danzou goes, he is also a Senju powered freak. Tobi who also know Izanagi couldn't tell that it was used until Danzou used it multiple times and only deduced that it was Izanagi because well, that's all it really could be because of how it changed reality and seeing the sharingans closing. Tobi didn't need seals for Izanagi and also didn't recognize the seals Danzou used, so you can't even say that those seals are inherently required for Izanagi. Maybe he simply need those seals to activate the genetic effects he needed. Regardless though, it still nearly impossible for Izanami to realistically work against Izanagi.
Last edited by chilibun; June 20, 2013 at 11:00 PM.
Hmm. To OP, I'd say that their natural abilities make the Uchiha formidable, but not unstoppable. If they're regular jonin, genin, or chunin grade, then corresponding squads (as shinobi often move in) can counter this through coordination and specialty jutsu and strategy (as evidence by Chiyo's familiarity).
Because in reality, not every Uchiha is Madara grade. It just so happens that the ones who reach the pinnacle of the sharingan become well known. You've got Madara, his brother, Itachi, Sasuke, Shisui, Obito, Kakashi, and Danzo. But that's a handful of individuals maxing out those eyes. And each of them has displayed some fighting weakness save for Madara. Sasuke's a reckless fighter. Obito's teleportation jutsu is limited by speed as seen against Minato. Most of the aforementioned have faced stamina issues in drawn out battles where they couldn't KO an opponent. And the regular MS is not a permanent boon. It seals itself away eventually, and then there go the skills they relied on.
We don't know much, in contrast, about the Senju. We really only have Tsunade, Hashirama, and Tobirama to compare them too. However, as top tier ninja go, all three are chakra tanks to varying degrees. But that undersells the more important point. Each has been adept at formulating new and unique jutsu the likes of which even the Sharingan seems to pale in comparison too.
Consider, the sharingan can activate an offensive fire attack, strong genjutsu, strong shield, and in certain cases, space-time ninjutsu. The last Tobirama was able to do through jutsu alone (according to himself) and Minato was able to perfect. Hashirama had a sage mode and a suite of seal and wood jutsu. Tobirama was a water powerhouse. One of the two of them had that darkness genjutsu (which I'd hazard is more effective than the hidden mist jutsu). Tobirama could raise the dead. Forget Izanami and Izanagi. Tobirama created a jutsu so world-breaking (the most powerful so far, in my opinion) that he had to hide it away. Tsunade pioneered medical ninjutsu and crafted a seal that essentially grants her regenerative powers not unlike an Edo Tensei summon.
Going by just the heavy hitters from both sides, I can see how they'd balance each other out and how the Senju would eventually win with their more diverse skillset, because only those with MS and EMS really start to differentiate their dojutsu.
i beleive minato could beat madara in a fight if he played his cards right
EMS madara when he was alive, not the edo version, of course minato stands as good a chance as sealing edo madara as anyone else so he may be able to win there as well
Cause in Minato's arsenal there isn't any jutsu which is one hit kill. As far as Madara is concerned, he have Sasano (which is almost instant defence) as well as he may be able to use Amaterasu, which i am sure Minato can't tank like Juubi.
This is what Jiraiya stated about getting out of a genjutsu: http://www.mangareader.net/93-264-10...apter-259.html
Senju are supposed to have a great life force and power, so they probably had the strenght to get out of genjutsu like Jiraiya said... Naruto tried that with Itachi, it didn't work though: http://www.mangareader.net/93-264-11...apter-259.html
Kishi turned Sharingan into a loophole hacking device before he realised that it would fck everything up. He's now covertly nerfing it by not letting anyone copy or counter anything Itachi-style like before.
Not saying your comment sucks. It just doesn't touch my point in the slightest.