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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Sure the prices are huge, but in return they get.
2 of the best genjutsu in the manga
unquenchable flames that are the hottest shown in the manga so far
a giant skeleton mecha to defend them
arguably one of the best space time jutsu in the manga (if Minato had this, he really would be unbeatable) that can only, really, be countered by itself (Kakashi).
Any of these jutsu severely tip the power in the user's favour.
That is ignoring some of the other sharingan techniques such as Izanami and Izanagi - which, again with a huge price tag, literally win battles.
To be honest, losing an eye is much better than losing your life - especially if you kill the person trying to kill you afterwards...
Originally Posted by zimbardo
That's kind of my point. Sharingan grants great benefits for great cost, thus making it balanced. Every other kekkei genkai grants great benefits for little cost. Making them unbalanced. Or rather, less balanced than the Sharingan and it's jutsu.
If Hashirama wants to recover from a lethal wound, he simply needs to stand there and heal from it. If Madara wants to recover from a lethal wound he has to sacrifice an eye, crippling his fighting ability and perception. If Kimimaro wants to tank an S rank jutsu, he thickens his bones by expending a bit of chakra once. If Sasuke wants to tank an S rank jutsu, he has to suffer through the feel of every cell in his body burning while constantly expending chakra to use Susanoo.
Not to mention none of the other KG have a "use it too much and you'll cripple yourself and can never use it again" stipulation, or a "you can use this, but only once every 10 years" rule. Using Izanagi to survive one fight only to guarantee you're gimped in your next fight since one of your most powerful attacks was just sacrificed... or surviving your first fight or two by spamming Amaterasu only to never fight again because you're blind... can stuff like this really be considered advantages?
Last edited by ninjabot; July 29, 2013 at 07:57 PM.
Gai, a very stupid ninja, at least when compared to Shikamaru and others, developed a way to fight Sharingan's Genjutsu, I don't really understand someone having a difficult time to understand why senju would have problems with that.
Besides, Kishi showed a lot of genjutsu breaking by different means. C'mon what is your problem? Itachi is probably the strongest Uchiha ever when it comes to genjutsu, if you consider Madara better ok, let's say he is on top 5 (maybe a Shisui and others are above him), well, Itachi's Genjutsu is not invencible so why the other should be[Shisui is, possibly, an exception]?
The Uchiha clan is great, yeah, invencible? Not even close. Raikage would wipe the Uchiha Clan except for those with Susanoo Amaterasu (Sasuke Only?), Obito, Shisui and Madara, and frankly Minato, the Tsuchikage and many other ninja could do the same. At this point the manga is in this whole clan stuff is not that relevant anymore there are a lot of super strong ninja that do not rely on their bloodlones and we could clearly picture them killing hundreds or even thousands of uchiha, hyuuga or uzumaki.
Great ninjas, kage level of course, are way more relevant than bloodline power. So in the end, I'm going with: Senju had greater ninja than the Uchiha. Well, Hashirama was better than Madara, just "spread" this fact to the whole clans.
Last edited by raoniluna; July 29, 2013 at 11:10 PM.
1-There is a common mistake among people that there were plentiful Sharingan users in the Uchiha clan but the truth is that the Sharingan was a rare feat to accomplish even among the Uchiha. Don't confuse them with the Hyuuga whom the Byakugan is a dominant trait.
2-Even among those who awoke the Sharingan, it takes a lot of training to fully master it and while the normal Sharingan Genjutsu is powerful, only the Mangekyou is nigh unbreakable.
3-The Mangekyou itself it's near impossible to get and comes with the drawback of making you blind. This means the few Uchiha whom attained supreme power, which were just Madara and Izuna by the way, would eventually become blind and lose all combat effectiveness.
Those three problems, the fact Uchiha had only a handful of truly exceptional fighters, that the normal Sharingan isn't actually unbeatable and that the Mangekyou eventually deprives the strongest Uchiha from their power makes for the major flaws in the clan.
However, they are not enough to explain the Senju victory, there is a fourth and most important factor to it all.
4- Hashirama Senju, he alone is the reason the Uchiha clan ended up losing the battle. His Mokuton is just too broken, he could create clones only Mangekyou users could tell apart, he could merge with threes or instantly mold them to strike from completely unpredictable points and he could summon a FREAKIN WOOD GOD which could crush mountains.
There is no such a thing as Senju beating the Uchiha, the generation of Butsuma and Tajima were evenly matched with one side having too many diverse techniques and plentitude of chakra to use them whereas the other had a handful of powerful fighters who could copy and use them against their creators.
What broke the balance in the Senju's favor was Hashirama and Hashirama only, Tobirama feared Madara, he knew if an Uchiha of his caliber ever arose again he wouldn't stand a chance.
While we saw that Tobirama defeated Izuna, who was tought of as Madara's equal, we must bear in mind that Tobirama had to rely on experimental techniques like the Hiraishin and the Edo Tensei just to keep up with the pace the Uchiha could throw.
Don't forget that Madara and Izuna were deep on the way of becoming blind by the time Tobirama finally took his shot with a move he had to freakin invent just to beat a tired out Izuna.
Case in point, in this series it doesn't matter which power your clan has our how big it is, it matters that you have the most powerful fighter because he alone decides the fate of your side.
The Senju had Hashirama whose power was on a league beyond that of Madara, he could fight two things of a bijuu's league at the same time as it was shown when he one upped Kurama and Susanoo with one of his top tier techniques.
In this context, the Uchiha were pretty much screwed, you can't compete with someone like that and not even with Madara and Izuna being equals and of a tier higher than that of Tobirama they could triumph against Hashirama's ridiculously haxed powers.
By the time the Uchiha surrendered, Madara had pretty much threw everything he had against the Senju and failed because he couldn't defeat Hashirama, he only had a change of heart because Hashirama proved his dreams and ideals were more important to him than the power which gave the Senju an obscene advantage in the conflict.
If you flashforward to the present when nobody of Hashirama's caliber exists to match the Uchiha in power, it becomes pretty obvious only an Uchiha can defeat another.
Minato beat Tobi in the same fashion Tobirama beat Izuna, by using an unorthodox fighting style which negated predictions with teleportation, also, he was fighting just an Uchiha teenager with a single eye.
When we take Itachi for example, a fully grown Uchiha with a Mangekyou in both eyes, he was pretty much unbeatable to anyone who didn't have another Mangekyou Sharingan or a Rinnegan.
His speed, reflexes and taijutsu were on a level matching that of Madara and his Susanoo, while not developed as Madara's was equipped with legendary itens capable of decimating armies like a hot knife on butter.
That man had to have a heart disease and become near bling just to bring him to a a Cursed Seal normal Sharingan user level.
To bluntly put it, if an Uchiha awakes his true potential, he is pretty much a nightmare that would take an army's worth of high level shinobi to deal with and that might not even be enough.
Only someone with an even more broken power like a perfect Jinchuuriki, a Rinnegan user or a naturally gifted Mokuton user could hope to beat an EMS wielding Uchiha.
True that Sharingan is a rear feat even amongst the Uchihas, and all the Uchihas who were famous they were too good to fight one on one.
Name any one... Madara, Izuna (Though i have my reservations on his name )Itachi, Shisui and Sasuke (Not counting Obito) and even Kakashi used shaingan in a fearsome way.
When they say fighting against Uchiha it means fighting against an Uchiha who awken his Sharingan at very least. And what can be done by a simple sharingan, Sasuke has demonstrated it very well.
On a side note: People say that Gai invented a method to fight Uchiha but that's not very simple. Only a Taijutsu beast /specialist like him can pull that off