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Thread: Bleach 543 Discussion

  1. #271
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SoulAuron's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
    He had no idea of knowing that Bach was stronger than him since he most likely beat him 1000 years ago. In fact he knew only what he knew of Bach 1000 years prior. So yet again that is ill preparation. And again I am saying to you something you choose to ignore, and I do not argue very well with ignorant people. Yama could disintegrate the whole of soul society with his power so that means killing the capatins with him. Consequently this sort of power is to be used last not first 'o master of warfare'. By allowing captains to fight their battles he surely maximises his chances than killing them with his own power surely. His plan against Aizen was optimal strategy. His plan against Bach was not a plan at all. He was simply angry with Bach and you can clearly see it in the way he addresses him during battle : he didnt want to beat him, he wanted to completely destroy him and thus he lost by not being rational. Please argue what you want. I am right.
    his power will only destroy SS if he keeps using it for too long, and and again, the more hw waits to use it the more ywach would kill them, also its true that he didnt know ywach was stronger hten him, but what is the importance of that? ywach did not have to be stronger then him, yama knew ywach was very powerfull, and that he would prepare himself and only attack if he thought he could beat yama, which already makes him capable of bulldozing every other captain, especialy with bankai stealing device, so this was the best choice he could make, he minimized the losses to only himself and foddergamy, the best possible thing to do in this scenario, of course he thought he could beat ywach, but he wasnt sure, even with bankai, so he did the best course of action, that would either win them the war when he killed ywach, which if done as soon as possible ensures the survival of the other captains, or if he couldnt beat ywach he would try to stop ywach from killing others giving them the chance to win theyr battles and help him out.

    ---------- Post added at 08:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    We cannot really say with certainty that Bach was stronger than Yama without the medallion.
    ywach defeated him with one strike without even using his spirit weapon, even without bankai yama could have still fought, like he did with wonderweiss, yama is extreemly strong so he should have been able to keep fighting with his sword and power, instead he was one shot by an enemy that wasnt using any of his main powers, note he was one shot if ywach had used his powers which we dont even know what they are yet, and vollstandig, he could certainly beat yama in bankai in one shot as well, its simple logic.
    heres what i think is the explanation to BB having multiple DF:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3373390

  2. #272
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Toby_Temple's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulAuron
    ywach defeated him with one strike without even using his spirit weapon, even without bankai yama could have still fought, like he did with wonderweiss, yama is extreemly strong so he should have been able to keep fighting with his sword and power, instead he was one shot by an enemy that wasnt using any of his main powers, note he was one shot if ywach had used his powers which we dont even know what they are yet, and vollstandig, he could certainly beat yama in bankai in one shot as well, its simple logic.
    If you look at the scene again, that is not the logical conclusion there.

    Yamamoto gave up because he knows FOR A FACT that he could no longer win.

    I mean, he could shunpo'd and dodge the slash. He could even used shikai. But Bach HAS HIS BANKAI.

    Bach has Zanka no Tachi. And he can use it. How the hell can Yamamoto's shikai stand against that?

    And how could you even consider comparing Wonderweiss with Bach as an argument? Really? Yama could have fought Bach like he fought Wonderweiss like Bach is just as weak as Wonderweiss?


    Next is how could you even claim that when Bach used his sword to summon the bow in the sky he was not using his spirit weapon?

    How sure are any of us here that Bach's spirit weapon is not his sword?

    That is a lot of unsupported assumptions you made there.
    NO to KUROSAKI ICHIGO USING a BOW!!!

  3. #273
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SoulAuron's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    If you look at the scene again, that is not the logical conclusion there.

    Yamamoto gave up because he knows FOR A FACT that he could no longer win.

    I mean, he could shunpo'd and dodge the slash. He could even used shikai. But Bach HAS HIS BANKAI.

    Bach has Zanka no Tachi. And he can use it. How the hell can Yamamoto's shikai stand against that?

    And how could you even consider comparing Wonderweiss with Bach as an argument? Really? Yama could have fought Bach like he fought Wonderweiss like Bach is just as weak as Wonderweiss?


    Next is how could you even claim that when Bach used his sword to summon the bow in the sky he was not using his spirit weapon?

    How sure are any of us here that Bach's spirit weapon is not his sword?

    That is a lot of unsupported assumptions you made there.
    it didnt look at all like he gave up to me, he was only cautious, and whats more, when ywach cut him in half he was filled with surprise in his face, with this we can see that he couldnt even see ywach moving or try to stop the attack at all, it caught him completly of guard, and why would he try to grab ywachs cape after being cut in half if he had given up? ywach said very well that even in death yammoto was trying to defend SS, its just that he couldnt do a thing no matter what, there was no lack of trying, then ywach goes on to say that he was weak, that he had gotten weak, he didnt stand a chance because he couldnt do a thing as simple as healing his arm because of his honor, "why didnt you heal your left arm?" we know this sort of thing makes a huge diference in bleach, grimjaws situation when he lost his arm and zarakis fight show that it makes a major diference, in other words, if yama had his arm, he would be considered a SWP and probably would have put up a very good figth against ywach, even if hr didnt beat him, but the way he was then, with or wothout bankai, he stood no chance.
    heres what i think is the explanation to BB having multiple DF:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3373390

  4. #274
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Toby_Temple's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulAuron View Post
    it didnt look at all like he gave up to me, he was only cautious, and whats more, when ywach cut him in half he was filled with surprise in his face, with this we can see that he couldnt even see ywach moving or try to stop the attack at all, it caught him completly of guard, and why would he try to grab ywachs cape after being cut in half if he had given up? ywach said very well that even in death yammoto was trying to defend SS, its just that he couldnt do a thing no matter what, there was no lack of trying, then ywach goes on to say that he was weak, that he had gotten weak, he didnt stand a chance because he couldnt do a thing as simple as healing his arm because of his honor, "why didnt you heal your left arm?" we know this sort of thing makes a huge diference in bleach, grimjaws situation when he lost his arm and zarakis fight show that it makes a major diference, in other words, if yama had his arm, he would be considered a SWP and probably would have put up a very good figth against ywach, even if hr didnt beat him, but the way he was then, with or wothout bankai, he stood no chance.
    Yamamoto's face prior to the slash shows us all that we need to know(lower left corner):

    Spoiler show


    Yamamoto knew right there and then that it was over when the leader of the Quincy held the reishi sword in his hands: IT WAS HIS DEFEAT and HIS END.

    He was not surprise of the slash. Look at how the eyes were drawn here when when Bach stole his bankai:

    Spoiler show


    Here is when he was slashed:

    Spoiler show


    Those are not the eyes of a surprised/shock individual.

    And you are wrong to claim that Bach did not consider Yamamoto a war potential because he lost a hand and did not have it healed.

    The real reason is because Yamamoto's perspective on how things should be done changed.

    He could have created a counter for the medallions just from Mayuri's findings in his experiments with the quincies. He did not.
    Last edited by Toby_Temple; June 30, 2013 at 09:07 AM.
    NO to KUROSAKI ICHIGO USING a BOW!!!

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  6. #275
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulAuron View Post
    his power will only destroy SS if he keeps using it for too long, and and again, the more hw waits to use it the more ywach would kill them, also its true that he didnt know ywach was stronger hten him, but what is the importance of that? ywach did not have to be stronger then him, yama knew ywach was very powerfull, and that he would prepare himself and only attack if he thought he could beat yama, which already makes him capable of bulldozing every other captain, especialy with bankai stealing device, so this was the best choice he could make, he minimized the losses to only himself and foddergamy, the best possible thing to do in this scenario, of course he thought he could beat ywach, but he wasnt sure, even with bankai, so he did the best course of action, that would either win them the war when he killed ywach, which if done as soon as possible ensures the survival of the other captains, or if he couldnt beat ywach he would try to stop ywach from killing others giving them the chance to win theyr battles and help him out.

    ---------- Post added at 08:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 AM ----------


    ywach defeated him with one strike without even using his spirit weapon, even without bankai yama could have still fought, like he did with wonderweiss, yama is extreemly strong so he should have been able to keep fighting with his sword and power, instead he was one shot by an enemy that wasnt using any of his main powers, note he was one shot if ywach had used his powers which we dont even know what they are yet, and vollstandig, he could certainly beat yama in bankai in one shot as well, its simple logic.
    Dude you clearly do not understand much. He knew nothing about Bach (the present Bach). My grandmother would also know that Bach is powerful. Now as far as a battle of this magnitude is concerned, Yama was angry at the losses of his shinigami to the hands of Bach and because of that all his actions towards Bach are irrational and angry. Arguing that he limited his losses is naive at best. Would you unleash your biggest weapon against one target, knowing that if you keep using it you destroy your own troops at a point where the battle is still not lost? What kind of twisted rationality is that ?? The most rational way to go on a war is to support your own troops and win by numbers. Even if Yama beat Bach at the cost of his life and the rest of the troops died, what kind of victory would that be? The issue at hand was the medallion hax strategy and surely a CC would have to find a way to neutralise that disadvantage before taking a decision to engage the head of the opposing army. Surely he should have known that his bankai could be stolen too (his rationale for not being able to be stolen was proven false) and therefore should have conserved energy by going Shikai and killing Sternritters who engaged his captains swiftly and gather around him as many troops as poosible to go for Bach. It is true that Bach would do the same as well or even go after Yama himself, yet in the process of things Yama would at least have killed some of the sternritters plus possibly gaining access to the medallions in order to find a tactical way to neutralise the Bankai stealing. None of this happened. He rushed against Bach, died AND had his bankai stolen which clearly is the WORST possible outcome not the best as you think. Now Bach can use Yama's bankai at his leisure..just great for SS.
    Last edited by Chojin; June 30, 2013 at 09:13 AM.

  7. #276
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SoulAuron's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    Yamamoto's face prior to the slash shows us all that we need to know(lower left corner):

    Spoiler show


    Yamamoto knew right there and then that it was over when the leader of the Quincy held the reishi sword in his hands: IT WAS HIS DEFEAT and HIS END.

    He was not surprise of the slash. Look at how the eyes were drawn here when when Bach stole his bankai:

    Spoiler show


    Here is when he was slashed:

    Spoiler show


    Those are not the eyes of a surprised/shock individual.

    And you are wrong to claim that Bach did not consider Yamamoto a war potential because he lost a hand and did not have it healed.

    The real reason is because Yamamoto's perspective on how things should be done changed.

    He could have created a counter for the medallions just from Mayuri's findings in his experiments with the quincies. He did not.
    mayuri himself said during the fight that the analisis was not complete yet, so up untill that point there was no way to create a counter, yamamotos eyes when he was cut look very much like the ones when his bankai was stolen (to me anyway), also creating a counter for the medalions has nothing to do with honor, if anything it is justice to undo the dishonor that is the bankai stealing medalions, also the manga made it very clear that one less arm makes all the diference, you cannot simply ignore it and say that it wasnt the reason why he isnt SWP, EVERYTIHG was the reason, the whole speach showed all the reason why it makes him weak, not restoring his arm is a consequence of his morality that makes him weak, it is not unrelated as you say, his morality makes him weak because it stops him from doing things such as uh, say, restoring his arm dont you think?
    it is certain he is much weaker without his left arm, that much you cant deny, and all your points are very subjective, they cant prove anything.

    ---------- Post added at 11:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
    Dude you clearly do not understand much. He knew nothing about Bach (the present Bach). My grandmother would also know that Bach is powerful. Now as far as a battle of this magnitude is concerned, Yama was angry at the losses of his shinigami to the hands of Bach and because of that all his actions towards Bach are irrational and angry. Arguing that he limited his losses is naive at best. Would you unleash your biggest weapon against one target, knowing that if you keep using it you destroy your own troops at a point where the battle is still not lost? What kind of twisted rationality is that ?? The most rational way to go on a war is to support your own troops and win by numbers. Even if Yama beat Bach at the cost of his life and the rest of the troops died, what kind of victory would that be? The issue at hand was the medallion hax strategy and surely a CC would have to find a way to neutralise that disadvantage before taking a decision to engage the head of the opposing army. Surely he should have known that his bankai could be stolen too (his rationale for not being able to be stolen was proven false) and therefore should have conserved energy by going Shikai and killing Sternritters who engaged his captains swiftly and gather around him as many troops as poosible to go for Bach. It is true that Bach would do the same as well or even go after Yama himself, yet in the process of things Yama would at least have killed some of the sternritters plus possibly gaining access to the medallions in order to find a tactical way to neutralise the Bankai stealing. None of this happened. He rushed against Bach, died AND had his bankai stolen which clearly is the WORST possible outcome not the best as you think. Now Bach can use Yama's bankai at his leisure..just great for SS.
    sorry, but i still think it is the best outcome, and i know yama didnt know how strong ywach was, that much is obvious, but that doesnt change any of the things that i said, he didnt know but he knew ywach was no fool, he would only invade if he was confident on his victory, and you cant relly on just one tactic to win, thus the medalion is not enough to invade SS, he needed to be strong enough to believe in his chance of victory even without it, and yama is smart enough to know this too.
    also his bankai would not kill the other captains so easyly, not if he finished his fight as soon as possible, only if the battle draged on would it be a problem, also its still just as i said, waiting to fight because of the risk your bankai poses is stupid if it gets all you soldiers killed, whici it would for sure, and when you take into consideration what i said in the previous paragraph, yama knew they would all die if they fought him, so no there is no way he could let that happen, if he did, everything would have ended in the same way as now, but with all the captains dead, and considering everything else i said in this post, yama also knew that.
    heres what i think is the explanation to BB having multiple DF:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3373390

  8. #277
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    The Yama fight between fake bach, and real Bach goes like this.

    Yama kills Discoll takes revenge for Sasakibe, he the rushes to what he thinks is Bach we know it wasn't but not at the time(remember that?) Yama not knowing who he is really fighting makes a snap decision to go all out and release his bankai this makes the Fake Bach worry but still hold his ground because of the increased Blut Vene Bach gave him, Once Yama defeats who he thinks is the Real Bach (still at this point we didn't know it wasn't the real deal either) He lets his guard down and becomes a little relieved (as anyone would) But then the Real Bach appears which is game over for Yama, Yama seeing the Real Bach and the Fake Bach changing back to his true Lyod Ryod form, seeing this would make Yama not only desperate but confused, two of the most deadly things that should never be brought to any battlefeild. Real Bach knows this and he jumped at the opportunity that was before him which was to end yama there and then. Yama still in his Confused and desperate state tries a last ditch attempt to use his bankai which was inevitably stolen. As soon as the Real Bach made his appearance it was game over for Yama, noit because Yama was weaker then Bach but because he was fooled and made to look stupid, make rash judgements. This was Bach's plan from the start of the invasion. In fact i think and this is my own personal opinion, Bach's true goal in that invasion was to terminate Yama anything else was a bonus.
    Spoiler show

  9. #278
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Toby_Temple's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulAuron View Post
    mayuri himself said during the fight that the analisis was not complete yet, so up untill that point there was no way to create a counter
    I was mistaken. I was speaking about this - http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/489/15

    Mayuri was speaking more about the possibility of Quincies invading SS but Yamamoto ignored it.


    Quote Originally Posted by SoulAuron View Post
    the manga made it very clear that one less arm makes all the diference, you cannot simply ignore it and say that it wasnt the reason why he isnt SWP, EVERYTIHG was the reason, the whole speach showed all the reason why it makes him weak, not restoring his arm is a consequence of his morality that makes him weak, it is not unrelated as you say, his morality makes him weak because it stops him from doing things such as uh, say, restoring his arm dont you think?
    All that says is that you completely fail to understand Bach's speech. The unrestored arm is just one of the signs that Yamamoto is not the same swordsman that he was 1000 years ago. This is expressed clearly from his speech.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulAuron View Post
    it is certain he is much weaker without his left arm, that much you cant deny
    MUCH weaker? How much reiatsu does an arm amount to in bleach?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulAuron View Post
    and all your points are very subjective, they cant prove anything.
    Let us straighten this one out.

    I am the one who is agnostic about Bach being more powerful than Yamamoto and vice versa.
    You are among those who claimed that Bach is stronger than Yamamoto.

    I have proven my case, THAT WE CANNOT BE CERTAIN THAT BACH IS STRONGER THAN YAMAMOTO.

    You haven't proven yours.
    Last edited by Toby_Temple; June 30, 2013 at 10:18 AM.
    NO to KUROSAKI ICHIGO USING a BOW!!!

  10. #279
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner lyght's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    I was mistaken. I was speaking about this - http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/489/15

    Mayuri was speaking more about the possibility of Quincies invading SS but Yamamoto ignored it.




    All that says is that you completely fail to understand Bach's speech. The unrestored arm is just one of the signs that Yamamoto is not the same swordsman that he was 1000 years ago. This is expressed clearly from his speech.



    MUCH weaker? How much reiatsu does an arm amount to in bleach?



    Let us straighten this one out.

    I am the one who is agnostic about Bach being more powerful than Yamamoto and vice versa.
    You are among those who claimed that Bach is stronger than Yamamoto.

    I have proven my case, THAT WE CANNOT BE CERTAIN THAT BACH IS STRONGER THAN YAMAMOTO.

    You haven't proven yours.
    i thought bach said that you have to be stronger than the owner of the bankai in order to steal it

  11. #280
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by lyght View Post
    i thought bach said that you have to be stronger than the owner of the bankai in order to steal it
    Even if you manage to steal the bankai, it's useless if you're incinerated by it the very next moment (Royd). In order to prevent that, you have to be strong enough, but it's not like your power level has to be strictly higher than that of the original user of the said bankai, lol.

    By this logic, SR would have to be stronger than Gotei captains, which I find hard to believe, considering their not so stellar (no pun on 'Stern' intended) performance even against shikai captains.

    ---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    MUCH weaker? How much reiatsu does an arm amount to in bleach?
    Using both arms improves swordsmanship. Look at Kenpachi in the Nnoitra fight. With 2 arms, you can get into more advanced/perfected techniques, which can make slight, non-negligible differences. For example, the cut here http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/506/13 could've been deeper and maybe even cut off Royd's arm (at least it got through Blut Vene pretty easily), and in that case the possible follow-up slash could aim at the body or the head... Royd would end up lasting much shorter and even wouldn't require Yama using bankai.

    Yama has shitload of reiatsu, anyway.
    Erfworld

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Zeta42's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by lyght View Post
    i thought bach said that you have to be stronger than the owner of the bankai in order to steal it
    All he said was "nobody but me is strong enough to be able to steal your bankai without dying."

  13. #282
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    nope,it was just that it's a too strong bankai to be wielded.the only one who could handle it was yhwach... wonder if this chap meant we are gonna see war again or if some time will pass...

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member bleach fan 101's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    i believe bach appointed him as his successor not as in uryuu will lead the quincy but bach possessing uryuu will lead them, notice he said he was the previous successor, yet how can he be if he is father of the quincy
    http://h.imagehost.org/0990/667_rend...low_vizard.png

    Unless I grip the sword I cannot protect you, while I’m gripping the sword I cannot embrace you ~ Tite Kubo

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner XGaminFreakX's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    I know this has nothing to do with this week chapter well more like last week chapter since its Monday here but for ppl you said they dont like ichigo dual wielding might change their mind i came across this eh i was gonna post an image but for some reason its not showing maybe its to big but here is the Direct Link :

    http://browse.deviantart.com/art/ble...iler-379604384 Itsigo Dual Wield

    and the Sword we saw before this is what i think it was not Flames but Well look and you`ll see

    http://browse.deviantart.com/art/Ble...etsu-378822905
    Last edited by XGaminFreakX; June 30, 2013 at 07:02 PM.

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  17. #285
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member exacta's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 543 Discussion / 544 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    Spoiler show


    Those are not the eyes of a surprised/shock individual.

    And you are wrong to claim that Bach did not consider Yamamoto a war potential because he lost a hand and did not have it healed.

    The real reason is because Yamamoto's perspective on how things should be done changed.

    He could have created a counter for the medallions just from Mayuri's findings in his experiments with the quincies. He did not.
    Yup. That is the face of a dude who just got cut in half. He knew it was coming. As one might expect it just kind of....hurt. Yamamoto continued to defend Soul Society, even though he knew had no chance against Bach. I'm sure that with his Bankai he would've won though.

    Also, Bach made him look like such an idiot, yet the chapter before when Yamamoto explained why he wasn't afraid that his Bankai would be stolen, everyone was like " oh yeah, that does make sense.....". I'm guessing it's not that they are stealing the Bankai itself, but rather the Asauchi or rather the Zanpakuto spirit, which is why it doesn't matter whether they've seen the Bankai or not. According to the Zanpakuto Arc you can still use your shikai even if your spirit is gone, so I'm guessing that logic holds true.

    Bach is one of my favorite characters of Bleach now, but hell no even without that arm he couldn't beat Yamamoto's Bankai. You are just completely screwed against that thing.
    Last edited by exacta; June 30, 2013 at 07:37 PM.

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