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Thread: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion

  1. #91
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    Skimming through the discussions here... a few clarifications re: translation for some of the posters here, plus a tangent.

    Page 2: Sera's telling Elder Kwon to be as *calm*, not as *cold*, as possible.

    Page 11: "Thousand Needle" is metaphorcical. I know this is obvious but a few guys seem confused. It's not literally one thousand of them; martial arts names tend to sound a bit grandiose and flowery, just as "Ghost Hand Godly Doctor" suggests that Shik moves so dexterously and precisely in his movements, or "Big Mountain" suggests great constitution and fortitude.

    Page 17: "Strongest Second", not "Second Strongest". I'd contend that the Ten Masters are probably all remarkably awesome and in a league of their own, and most likely are all roughly equal in fighting power (and would win and lose from other circumstances such as particular martial arts strengths and weaknesses, willpower, wits, etc).


    Slight tangent: The Breaker series has always treated martial arts power levels in a somewhat more general way where basically people of similar power levels basically fight each other to a standstill unless one is a tier above the other (grandmaster > masters > skilled > flunky) , at which point you have characters such as Shion and 9AD who can surpass these limits due to the power of spirit.

    One of the main conflicts and narrative of this series is about how such drive and determination can "break" the stagnant power system of Murim (http://mangachrome.com/the-breaker/25/17/ -- "The rule of Murim belongs to the strong."), and the reason why we enjoy such frisson out of these weekly updates is to have the gratification of how determination and principle and intent can surpass these insurmountable barriers and destroy it ("http://mangachrome.com/the-breaker/25/18/"). Given this, I think while it would be gratifying to see Shion yet again power up and break out of Thousand Needles to resolve the current arc, he's made his advancement via survival on the island. If anything I as a reader would like to see the others shine a bit now... let the spirit of the Sunwoo elders and the strategic wiles of Sera be showcased a little more at this point. Shion's levelled up so much in the past 10+ episodes that I'm getting powerlevel fatigue... I know it's payoff for the last few hundred episodes of him being at a low power level but I could really switch things up a bit and see some more development to his allies at this point.

    PS -- I do agree though that BOT seems to be the logical out for all this. BOT is pretty much the holy grail of The Breaker universe, and getting to use BOT in a controlled fashion is a major plot thread in the narrative we have in the series.
    Last edited by jeffy; June 28, 2013 at 04:09 PM.

  2. #92
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    From earlier discussions and speculation, when Shioon uses BOT, he seems to make his circulation go backwards, which is something an ordinary human can't do. I'm also wondering two other things about BOT:

    1) Is it possible to get better at controlling it with experience,
    2) If you activate it in order to protect instead of in anger, does that make a difference in control?

    If either of these is possible, he could activate BOT and just pull out the needles. Would be even more satisfying if Kwon was in trouble fighting Shik and Shioon rescues him.

  3. #93
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ketsurou's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by silentone22 View Post
    I know people are loathe to have another black origin episode, but the way that ghost doctor did say something interesting. He said something along the lines of "to break free of this would be to say that you don't need a heart".
    Several people have mentioned this, so I'm going to correct it right now, or try to, based on my understanding of the translation.

    What Shik said was "to break free of this is like saying you don't need a heart." This is a metaphorical saying. It means, in other words, "getting out of this is as impossible as living without a heart."

    While I agree with the general speculation that BOT, which reverses the ki circulation, would allow Shioon to break this technique, I do not think his wording is that important and it does not point to Shioon jumping into BOT. It is simply an old doctors way of saying "that is impossible."

  4. #94
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member ChaoticKen's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    Awwwwright, let me try to sum up the arguments people make for Kwon's epithet meaning "second strongest" and try to provide a counter-argument. Correct me if I interpreted an argument as wrong, and I'll fix it.

    Quote Quote:
    The Strength Argument 1
    P1. Kwon is incredibly strong.
    P2. It is hard to imagine there being two people stronger than him.
    P3. There is only one person stronger than Kwon.
    C. Therefore, Kwon's epithet means "second strongest".

    The Strength Argument 2
    P1. Kwon is incredibly strong.
    P2. Doc Ghost Hands says Kwon is someone he didn't want to see again.
    P3. This means Kwon is stronger than Ghost Hands.
    C. Therefore, Kwon is the "second strongest".
    Argument 1 is faulty because P2 isn't really a true premise. It hinges on a person's imagination. It's utterly subjective.

    Argument 2 holds very little water, especially when you consider that Kwon claimed that going up against Ghost Hands in the SunWoo's current state could spell the end of the clan. Now, it is indeed possible that Kwon is indeed stronger than Ghost Hands. However, this does not mean that Kwon is the second-strongest. Furthermore, another explanation could be offered - Kwon is one of the 10 Great Masters, and so is Ghost Hands. Even if there are some differences in power, it does not change the fact that both are incredibly powerful people. When two people of such strength go at it for real, things are bound to get hectic. Ghost Hands simply wants to take ShiWoon and get out, Kwon wants ShiWoon saved at all costs.

    One could reasonably infer that there is some bad blood / history between the two, given Kwon's apprehension of going against Ghost Hands and Ghost Hands not really wanting to meet with Kwon. But this does not really indicate any hierarchy of power.

    Quote Quote:
    The Sounds Weird Argument
    P1. Second strongest sounds good and is understandable.
    P2. Strongest second-in-command is confusing and just looks weird.
    P3. (Assumed Premise) Something that sounds less confusing must be the correct translation.
    P4. Second strongest is less confusing than strongest second-in-command.
    C. Therefore, the correct translation must be second-strongest.
    P3 of the argument is faulty. Less confusing does not equal correct translation. It's pretty much inevitable that when you translate, things have a chance of sounding weird. This is especially true of things like titles and martial art techniques. Plus, the question of whether something sounds confusing / weird or not is also subjective. For instance, I could make the argument that "second strongest" doesn't make sense when some people call him simply "second strongest' while other refer to him as "second strongest among the 10 Murim Great Masters". If he truly is the second-strongest in all of Murim, the "among the 10 Murim Great Masters" feels redundant and tacked on. If he's only the second-strongest of the 10 Murim Great Masters and there are people even stronger than the 10 Murim Great Masters, then calling him "second strongest" without the add-on of "among the 10 Murim Great Masters" makes no sense.

    Quote Quote:
    The Translator Argument 1
    P1. A-Team says it means "second strongest".
    P2. Sakicow once said it was "strongest second-in-command".
    P3. Sakicow / Mangacow is a speed scan and thus not as accurate as A-Team.
    C. Therefore, A-Team's translation must be accurate.

    The Translator Argument 2
    P1. A-Team says it means "second strongest".
    P2. Sakicow / Mangacow used to say it meant "strongest second-in-command" but says now that it means "second strongest".
    P3. The two only scanlation groups say it means "second strongest".
    P4. There is no scanlation group that says it can mean anything else.
    P5. The only translation available is "second strongest".
    C. Therefore, the translation is 'second strongest".
    Both arguments hinge on a translator's inability to be inaccurate. Mangacow pretty much puts a kibosh on that part, what with their switching from one translation to another, and their mangling of hanja. Translating 천 (天: Sky) as 천 (千: Thousand) in this chapter is incredibly stupid, especially when the manhwa gives you the correct hanja. It's nearly as bad as Sakicow's mangling of Kwon's technique in Chapter 59, wherein they translated Sky as Earth before fixing it. Compare this to this. See the difference? Also, they translate Ghost Hand's epithet as Ghostly Doctor and if that's not stupid I don't know what is.

    Let me offer my argument to why I believe it means "strongest second-in-command."

    Quote Quote:
    P1. Kwon is strong.
    P2. Kwon is called "최강의 2인자".
    P3. Kwon is a member of the 10 Murim Great Masters.
    P4. Kwon is a second-in-command.
    P5. Kwon is the only second-in-command in the 10 Murim Great Masters.
    P6. Kwon is the strongest second-in-command in all of Murim.
    C. Therefore, Kwon's epithet of "최강의 2인자" means "strongest second-in-command".
    Proof for my premises.

    P1 and P2 cannot, at least by people arguing over the meaning of the epithet, be denied. If Kwon is not strong, then the argument that he is second strongest makes no sense. Also, if Kwon isn't called "최강의 2인자", what the hell are we arguing about? So I hope you'll agree with me on these two.

    P3 can't be denied, either. People explicitly note his membership among the 10 Murim Great Masters. The first mention of his inclusion is in Chapter 59.

    P4 and P5 also cannot be denied. Breaker shows us over and over that while Kwon is in charge of the SunWoo clan, he's not the clan head. Further validation of P4, as well as the first mention of P5, is given by SeRa in Chapter 60. Her words are "이인자로서 무림 십 대 고수자리를 지키고 있는 사람은 그분 하나뿐 이라는 거". Note the "이인자" (이 is 2). Her words translate into "[Kwon] is the only person in the 10 Murim Great Masters who retains his title as a second-in-command."

    There is no reason to doubt what SeRa is saying here. For one, while most people of Murim probably can't recognize the 10 Murim Great Masters by face alone (an SUC captain and government members were unable to), their names, reputuations and positions are most likely easily recognizable. Hence, when the words "Kwon JaeGyu" were uttered, everyone knew he was the "최강의 2인자" from the 10 Murim Great Masters and from the Sun Woo clan.

    Which leads us to P6. P6 follows from P5. Now, I am not saying that there aren't people stronger than the 10 Murim Great Masters, if only because reading manga / manhwa has taught me that if a group of people are hyped up, then there will always be someone stronger than them. I'm cynical like that. However, it cannot be denied that the 10 Murim Great Masters are considered to be incredibly powerful beings, pretty much some of the strongest beings in Murim. And, as P5 states, Kwon is their only member who's a "second-in-command."

    The only possible way I can think of P6 being false is if there is a second-in-command in Murim stronger than Kwon, if and only if everyone in Murim knows this stronger second-in-command. The 10 Murim Great Masters are well known, if there was a second-in-command stronger than Kwon and everyone knew of this person's existence, then Kwon could not be called the strongest second-in-command and my argument would fall flat. If someone like that existed by nobody knew of this person's existence, then Kwon wouldn't be the strongest second-in-command, but the people of Murim would still call him such.

    So I'll revise my argument slightly.

    Quote Quote:
    P1. Kwon is strong.
    P2. Kwon is called "최강의 2인자".
    P3. Kwon is a member of the 10 Murim Great Masters.
    P4. Kwon is a second-in-command.
    P5. Kwon is the only second-in-command in the 10 Murim Great Masters.
    P6. Kwon is the strongest second-in-command in all of Murim, as far as people of Murim are aware.
    C. Therefore, Kwon's epithet of "최강의 2인자" means "strongest second-in-command".
    Now that P6 has been fixed, the conclusion follows from the premises, making the argument valid. I also believe all of my premises are true, making the argument sound as well. If you can find a flaw in my argument, I'd be more than happy to discuss it.

    EDIT: Oh, and on the topic of the needles, the correct translation is Sky / Heaven and not Thousand, as I've noted above. People might skim it cause of the long stretch of text so I'll say it once more in bold.

    The technique is 천 (天: Sky) not 천 (千: Thousand). The manhwa gave the hanja and Mangacow fucked it up. Don't believe me? Take a look at the raw.
    Last edited by ChaoticKen; June 28, 2013 at 04:50 PM.

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  6. #95
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    Can we get this framed?

  7. #96
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    Using the needles is not where I would consider Shik being underhanded. If anything was unfair it is Shik having a duel with someone who is far from out his level, while they were already at the point of exhaustion. Even still since it was a duel that Shioon proposed, albeit due to having no other choice, those unfavorable conditions are fair as well. Then again considering that skill is the only thing that Shik is leagues above Shioon in, it could even be argued that Shioon was being "underhanded" by having a duel that Shik couldn't possibly win.

    Shik has tried to stop Shioon first with fear, then with pain/torture, finally he is resorting to force. I had already figured Shik used some acupoint technique designed to seal up Shioon's movement. Going by ketsuro's post I believe it's reasonable to assume the manner in which Shik chose to paralyze Shioon was by completely stopping his ki flow. Although if that really is what Shik did, then the chances of some form of BOT reappearing are much higher.

    I can see a scenario where a gloating Shik, believing he has won the duel has Shioon relay the terms and conditions of the duel. At first glance what seems to be conciliatory orders by Shioon for the clan to stand back, turns out to be sounding the alarm for his final retaliation. It could be interesting to see two of The Murim's Ten Strongest have to deal with a BOT from someone with Hwon Gol Tal Tae(full body rebirth), while also trying not to kill him, but I'm doubtful the author would go in that direction.

  8. #97
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    If his ki flow is stopped, I'm wondering if that will make it easier to go into BOT because half the work of reversing has already been done.

  9. #98
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ketsurou's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by 2bst2d View Post
    If his ki flow is stopped, I'm wondering if that will make it easier to go into BOT because half the work of reversing has already been done.
    Ki flow is never completely stopped, and I apologize for using the word "stopped" earlier. Ki is the vital force which animates physical life. When the ki stops completely, you are dead. Instead, what has been stopped completely are the signals which flow through the nervous system, from the brain and to the muscles. Ki manipulation is used as a medium to make this work so strongly, but ultimately, by restricting the ki flow (note the word "restriction"), Shik is restricting the electric signals of the nervous system.

    What this means, if Breaker Acupuncture Theory is based strongly off of Traditional Acupuncture Theory, is that right now Shioons entire body should be "numb." He may be "awake," and he may have some faint and subtle feeling of his vital ki flow, but he should not be able to feel his physical body. Like waking up with sleep paralysis...or in this case, having sleep paralysis right before you fall asleep. Any normal person should be laying on the ground right now. The fact that Shioon is not only standing, but shaking as he tries to break the restriction, is a very strong testament to his incredible spirit.

    Now, BOT should still be able to effect this. Ki and the nervous system are intimately linked, and authors like Dr. Yang, Jwing Ming teach that bioelectricity IS Ki/Qi within the body, and provides a lot of evidence to support his theory of that. So if the circulation is completely reversed as we are led to believe BOT does, the energy movements of the acupuncture points should reverse as well. With this change in the structure of the energy body, and its expression in the nervous system, normal acupuncture gets thrown out the window. Thus, Shioon should easily be able to escape this with BOT.

    However, once he is out, there is nothing to say that Shik has no way of still using acupuncture on a BOT Shioon. Just because the body is different in that state does not mean that someone of Shik's calibre cannot still find and hit the right targets.

    Also! There is probably another way to break this technique, besides BOT, which would probably involve Shioon's massive amount of internal energy and the extra large size of his circulation system. It is also possible that Kwon will simply remove the needles. However, I'm not sure if the authors will use those routes, because, as others have said, BOT is the quickest way to end this arc. In his current condition and with the Sun Woo right there, if Shioon enters that state now this will be over completely, and in three more chapters we will be back at Seoul.

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  11. #99
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    accupoints? Needles? Common shiion bang your head to the floor and youll be fine ryt... No need for bot...lol

  12. #100
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ketsurou's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    To bang his head would require the ability to move, and if my speculations are correct he cannot do that.

    Acupuncture isn't used just to induce pain, which is what Shioon was escaping when he banged his head, both of the previous times. When U.S. President Nixon went to China for the first time in the 60's, I think, they showed him an open heart surgery to demonstrate their great culture. At first, Nixon had no idea why, because the west already had that type of surgery. When he looked closer, the patient was not only awake, but talking with the doctors. The Chinese doctors had used acupuncture to completely numb the patients body instead of drugs, so that the surgery could be performed and he could feel no pain from it, and retain consciousness through the whole process.

    Shioon's current condition is a bit like that patient. The needles are numbing his body.

  13. #101
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    I was wondering if 9ad also underwent Hwon Gol Tal Tae when he fell from that cliff.
    After all despite his technique he is still very strong for his age even with bht.
    that cliff was said to be very high and he was believed to be dead.

  14. #102
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    you have a good back up of your reasons but shioon is well known for defying things like that... He proved that many times already, like from the attacks made by shik when he supposed to collapse, but still able to get back and attack in return.

  15. #103
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    I agree. Shioon can most certainly find a way to break this, whether he uses BOT or not. But I feel it should be understood that there is a difference between this technique and what Shik has used before. He even said himself that this is like nothing he has used on Shioon thus far.

  16. #104
    Little tocs-Coming Soon 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member thornofcarrion's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    To me, Ghostly Doctor lost to Shi-Woon. He failed to subdue him with techs he thought would be more than enough. I am sure Shi-Woon will do so once again. I see possibilities here:

    1. Upon seeing Elder Kwon he will relax
    2. Upon seeing Elder Kwon, he will continue to fight. He has to prove him that he is a worthy gaju.

    What do you think?

  17. #105
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MiyamotoMusashi's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaker : New Waves 122 Discussion/ 123 Predictions

    To be honest, i don´t want Shioon to free himself and continue fighting, even though it probably will happen anyway. I think there should be a limit for "seemingly inescapable situations" Shioon escapes from, otherwise this will turn into a deus ex machina. Experiencing the vast difference between him and a Grandmaster should be helpful for him.

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