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Thread: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread <3

  1. #91
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by diavolo View Post
    i agree with the most post here but i would like to add something dissapointing to me.
    we never saw the full extent of the hyuga clan's power(meaning Byakugan) it had so much praise through out the story for being powerfull like sharingang & rinnegan but it never shined.
    kishi could easily have a couple of chapter unleashing its potential and it would help with the feel of the whole ark not being so monotonus....
    Hyyuga was showcased enough through Neji, Hinata and Her father. And later on Via AO (Body guard of Mizukage) so i guess thats all what byakugan deserves

  2. #92
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    That I would find questionable, what with me taking the same classes as them and all.
    Then you need a few more or choose a better example like Rowanda.

    Quote Quote:
    Since Onoki wasn't there when Gaara gave his speech, that really doesn't change my point at all. And a handful of people possibly not changing doesn't mean the cycle wasn't broken, since as repeatedly mentioned, there is no cycle if revenge isn't sought. If the majority of people choose not to go after revenge, then the cycle never begins.
    Sure it does. Because all it takes is one person to start it all up again. That's why your argument of having the leaders speak to everyone and all will be better argument falls on its face. It didn't work for Sarutobi and it won't work for Gaara, the cycle will continue that why everyone needs to be involved in this fight not just a few token members.

    Quote Quote:
    Please, show me where I claim that such tactics "were never used". I said, they were "rarely" used before modern warfare. Unless you can provide some examples where they were constantly used, the occasional usage doesn't change my claim at all.
    There are a plethora of books on the subject. I provided one. Show me where they were rarely used. You're making that claim, not me.

    Quote Quote:
    No, what I want is to see people developed by the war as has been shown in the past. I don't care how they are change, nor do I believe they all have to emulate Nagato. In fact, it's the opposite, as I said for Naruto and this being his supposed trail by fire, where he's suppose to finally set himself apart from his forerunners and prove his belief. And again, what are you talking about? What years? Nagato was instantly changed by Yahiko's death, right after it. There wasn't any "years" involved. I don't know where you're getting this concept of years from.
    You may gripe about the effects of war, but that has nothing to do with the war itself. Nagato wasn't changed into what he was immediately. He fought alongside Yahiko through many battles, much longer than 48 hours and he didn't go crazy. Yahiko's death was the trigger to his transformation so just because people are in a war doesn't mean they will get changed immediately.

    Quote Quote:
    Wasn't changed? It was shown that their time in war caused them to want to bring peace, with Nagato and Konan placing their faith in Yahiko while he believed in Nagato to the point of literally giving his life for him. Yahiko's death cause them both to disregard their previous teaching and become far more hardcore, with Nagato developing a god complex and Konan supporting that, becoming his "angel". They became dedicated to that path to the point of even being willing to kill their former teacher. We were given plenty.
    They wanted peace before they met Jiraiya. That proves nothing. Yahiko's death affected Nagato yet the question is how the war affected them. How did it affect Konan? How was she changed? We aren't given anything.

    Quote Quote:
    No, I'm using the rational device based on past events and standards. If "armed conflict" is all that is required, then your previous arguments about tactics is moot, and the claims about the wars of other series fails. Heck, by that definition, the Chuunin Exam and whole situation in the Wave country can be called a war. The entire series has involved armed conflict.
    You've been comparing apples and oranges since the beginning. Claiming that since you can't see the apple the orange can't be an orange. That's not a rational device, it's misguided frustration. You do need the tactice to give war depth, scale and direction to separate it from other conflicts like a battle, fight,mission, or a mugging. They are needed to separate it from other altercations, but the one thing you don't need is character development.

    Quote Quote:
    How am I putting the cart before the horse? The war is happening right now, meaning there's no reason people shouldn't be changing like we have seen in the past. There's no fault in my argument.
    Because you're claiming that since you can't see the effects of war, the war isn't happening. You're putting the effects before the war and since I can't see the effects of war, the war isn't a war. War generates the effects not vice versa.

    Quote Quote:
    Hashirama might have, I can't recall for him, but the other three didn't. They never attributed the cycle of hatred to simply starting wars, it was towards all the issues of the world.
    Jiraiya did. All the hate led to fighitng and subsequently war. Nagato clearly did in his convesation with Naruto on the evolution of pain and war. Kakashi explains how the fighitng never stops in its endless cycle. It's all there.

    Quote Quote:
    Ibiki knowing of the impending attack means it wasn't a surprise attack. And we do know they had knowledge, because in addition to Orochimaru basically telling them, there was the whole situation with the Anbu. And considering there was still fighting shown during that time, the fighting couldn't possibly have been over before Sarutobi made Orochimaru flee. And given that we're shown the invading forces retreating afterward, your claim is wrong. The entire point is that it wasn't til after Orochimaru fled that the fighting stopped.
    They suspected, but that doesn't mean they knew. They knew Orochimaru's intentions but they didn't know the Sands. You can't make that claim. They were fighting before Sarutobi died ans Konoha was winning, yet you had no clue that the fighitng was still going on after Orochimaru won. You saw no retreat signal given to the main forces. You only had Orochimaru's comments to the Sound 4 but that is independent on what was happening elsewhere.

    Quote Quote:
    And Hollow, since as mentioned, the two powers are apart of each other and his Hollow side have always impacted them.
    But you have no evidence showing that Ichigo wasn't ready to learn the fnal form before going to Hueco Mundo. You don't need Hollow powers to do the final getsuga tenshou.

    Quote Quote:
    It's being written by the same man who writes the manga and is meant to go along with it. It's primary. Claiming the author's actual words wouldn't be considered primary is silly.
    Doesn''t matter. Databooks are the notes of the author or an authorized 3rd party. When you critique a work you use the work itself to make the arguments. Not the notes, because those aren't in the work. So it's secondary material, not primary. So while it's in Kishi's notes it's not is the manga itself, so it's always treated with a grain of salt.

    Quote Quote:
    No it's not, there's plenty of real world examples. It's the scenario that is. And 17? More like 10 years younger at most. There's no reason that someone can't have black hair. You're acting as if that's some sort of set rule, and it isn't. Obito's story begins before Madara as he talks about the era, so again, that moot. We know for a fact that Madara didn't gain his EMS til shortly before the founding of Konoha and that he met Hashirama well before being an adult. And no, that age is wrong. Even if it wasn't, Onoki clearly proves you wrong in that regard.
    No, there aren't many real world examples of people being a grandfather at age 20. That's were you are wrong. Additionally, you have no evidence that it happened that early. It has to happen that early because you need it to support your house of cards, not because that is what actually happened. Like that picture of that guy having grey hair in his beard at 80. Kind of proved my point, doesn't it. Everyone who is elderly in this series has grey or white hair. Sarutobi, Chiyo, Oonoki, Mito, Madara Sarutobi's two councellors all have grey/white hair. It's natural to expect old people to have grey/white hair when they're older. Danzou's doesn't in his 60's but that doesn't mean he won't in his 90's. because people age. It's a fact of life. There is no reason why Izuna wouldn't have grey/white hair at 90. So since Tobi has black hair he can't be Izuna. Once again "then one day" is a dimensionless unit that doesn't tell you how much time passed before the village was founded. Both Tobi and Hashirama are talking about Madara using the same timneline there's no reason why the story starts over 80+ years ago and Madara being 10 when Hashirama first meet Madara aren't linked.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, though your math was off. And no, that doesn't confirm that. Nor is there anything about him not being able to have black hair.
    Sure it does. Sarutobi is 17+ years younger than Izuna and Sarutobi has grey hair along iwth all the other older people. That shows Tobi can't be Izuna because he's too old. Still a worse plothole that Obito.

    Quote Quote:
    You seem to have missed the point. Kakashi's statement put the whole Zabuza incident 14 years ago (the mentioned 11 plus the three years for the time skip). Throw in the fact that the Rin incident happen closer to Naruto's birth, there isn't any time for the Sanbi to be reborn, recaptured, placed inside Yagura, then have Yagura controlled into making the Bloody Mist which was already around before that, and then create a graduation test that would have been over the following year.
    There are 3+ years for all those events to happen and you have no evidence to support your claims. Still no plothole.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, to speed it up. Seeing as there is no evidence against it either, there's no reason to think otherwise when the only mentioned difference in using it with more people is the amount of time it takes.
    Sure it accelerates the rate but that still doesn't mean 1 person can use it. 4 people can move a table faster than 2 people, but that doesn't mean 1 person move it by himself. Those are two different things.

    Quote Quote:
    What? Yeah he did need to kill both Minato and Konan. That's the only reason he even engaged them. And he's weak not merely because he used Kamui only, but because he didn't employ anything else when he had to. And Kakashi looked down on Obito because of his personality, not because of any weakness. Considering he was capable of using the Great Fireball technique as a genin, he clearly wasn't weak. And as I said before, since Kishi hasn't explain why it took so long or why Madara waited so long, there is no reason it would have to be different for Izuna.
    I'm talking about the Sasuke pursuit party and meeitng Naruto en route to Iron Mountain. He was delaying their actions so you don't need to engage your targets so why tip your hand if you don't have to. Just because Obito can use a fire ninjutu doesn't make him strong. Kishi does explains Madara's reason for waiting, he was caught in a feable state of existance due to his battle of Hashirama. Izuna has no excuse why he sat on his ass for 50 years doing nothing.

    Quote Quote:
    It's not speculation. We have been told several times that Kiri hasn't had much contact with the other nations. They have never taken part in any of the World Wars we know about. And exactly what is wrong with that idea? Obito attacked simply on a whim, and the same with Orochimaru, while Suna attacked out of greed.
    You're going to destroy a village with a bijuu for greed? A country which has had no reason to involve itself with the outside shinobi world then one day decieds to destroy people? Orochimaru had greivances with the village. He didn't like being passed over for Hokage or the limkitations in ninjutsu experiments. He had grudges.

    Quote Quote:
    Did you miss the whole "Minato not becoming Hokage til afterward"? We had a bookend for the war before recent events. And the two timelines were linked, as previously mentioned, thanks to Sasori's backstory.
    Not at all. And when exactly did he become Hokage? Obviously before Naruto's birth but how long ago? How long did the Kakashi Gaiden arc happen before that? We don't know. Lastly you haven't linked that to Yahiko's timeline since we don't know when Yahiko died just that it happened in the 3rd Shinobi War.

    Quote Quote:
    Considering that was the point of the conversation, there's no reason to have believed otherwise. And since there was nothing to move on from before now, that's a meaningless belief. No such thing was shown at all throughout Part Two til the talk with his father, nor was there any hindering at all. And like I said, all Obito's introduction has done is regress him. How is he even suppose to grow from this? Before it was simply he lost a friend due to his own beliefs, which caused him to change and take on that's friend's belief. Now we find out that those beliefs were fake and it's basically all Kakashi's fault that many of the events in the series has happen, all because he had a girl crushing on him.
    That still doesn't prove he acted on the conversation yet. Kishi confirms that he hasn't with Kakshi's conflict on trying to retain the memories of the good Obito. So while he had his conversation with dear old dad, he clearly hadn't moved on yet. Is part of this Kakashi's fault. Yes, it is. The series of events are partly due to his actions in the Third Shinobi War. How he grows after processing this information as the war conlcudes should prove interesting.

  3. #93
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Then you need a few more or choose a better example like Rowanda.
    Not sure at all how that would be considered a better example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Sure it does. Because all it takes is one person to start it all up again. That's why your argument of having the leaders speak to everyone and all will be better argument falls on its face. It didn't work for Sarutobi and it won't work for Gaara, the cycle will continue that why everyone needs to be involved in this fight not just a few token members.
    No, it takes more then one person to start up the cycle of hatred again. It didn't work for Sarutobi because he never got a change to attempt it, and it has worked fine for Gaara. Heck, considering Gaara has become beloved in Suna despite his past as a mass murderer, you're clearly wrong there. And what are you talking about? Everyone isn't involved, which has been one of the complains made earlier that you wrote off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    There are a plethora of books on the subject. I provided one. Show me where they were rarely used. You're making that claim, not me.
    You haven't provided anything supporting your claim that they were used more then occasionally. You're the one who keeps attempting to make it as if I claimed they weren't used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You may gripe about the effects of war, but that has nothing to do with the war itself. Nagato wasn't changed into what he was immediately. He fought alongside Yahiko through many battles, much longer than 48 hours and he didn't go crazy. Yahiko's death was the trigger to his transformation so just because people are in a war doesn't mean they will get changed immediately.
    Of course it does. That's the whole point of this war, the effects. The war itself doesn't matter since we already know the outcome of it. And once again, yes he was. How are you gonna keep going against what was actually shown in the series? He didn't go crazy before because the events that changed him was Yahiko's death. That's what cause him to give up on his original belief of peace. He changed right after that, something that was specifically shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    They wanted peace before they met Jiraiya. That proves nothing. Yahiko's death affected Nagato yet the question is how the war affected them. How did it affect Konan? How was she changed? We aren't given anything.
    Given that my example was about Chibi's death, so? Pretty sure I never claim that wasn't before they met Jiraiya... And as mentioned, we saw how it affected her. She developed the same way as Nagato.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You've been comparing apples and oranges since the beginning. Claiming that since you can't see the apple the orange can't be an orange. That's not a rational device, it's misguided frustration. You do need the tactice to give war depth, scale and direction to separate it from other conflicts like a battle, fight,mission, or a mugging. They are needed to separate it from other altercations, but the one thing you don't need is character development.
    There's no “misguided frustrations”. It's really annoying how you keep attempting to claim how we feel. And that's just ridiculous. You speak as if the battles and missions in Naruto are void of any sort of tactics, when it's been quite a major part of them since the very beginning of this series. Seriously, look at any fight involving Shikamaru or Sasuke. I really shouldn't have to tell you that. And character development is the main reason to even have this war. I mean, you do realize that the outcome of the war was already determined before it began. You do realize that it's a foregone conclusion that Naruto will defeat Obito and prevent the Infinite Tsukuyomi, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Because you're claiming that since you can't see the effects of war, the war isn't happening. You're putting the effects before the war and since I can't see the effects of war, the war isn't a war. War generates the effects not vice versa.
    And again, the war has been going on for some time. In fact, it's nearing the conclusion, and is basically over for the minor and secondary characters. So there's no “cart before the horse” going on. There;s no reason we shouldn’t be seeing the effect it has had on them, especially since as I have repeatedly mentioned, the effect has never taken that long to appear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Jiraiya did. All the hate led to fighitng and subsequently war. Nagato clearly did in his convesation with Naruto on the evolution of pain and war. Kakashi explains how the fighitng never stops in its endless cycle. It's all there.
    Then please provide a link. And no, Nagato didn't. Nagato spoke of revenge, which he himself was undertaking at that moment. Now unless you;re gonna claim that Pain's invasion was a war, then it clearly didn't involve that. Same with Kakashi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    They suspected, but that doesn't mean they knew. They knew Orochimaru's intentions but they didn't know the Sands. You can't make that claim. They were fighting before Sarutobi died ans Konoha was winning, yet you had no clue that the fighitng was still going on after Orochimaru won. You saw no retreat signal given to the main forces. You only had Orochimaru's comments to the Sound 4 but that is independent on what was happening elsewhere.
    It does when the character acknowledges it right there in the series itself. They outright comment towards Suna, not Orochimaru. And what? First off, you mean when Orochimaru lost. Secondly, we saw them retreating after Orochimaru retreated. And third, Konoha wasn't winning. The entire point was that Konoha was losing, which was why they ended up devastated afterward and resulted in their desire for a Sannin as Hokage as a show of power, not to mention the whole thing with having all their available ninjas on missions and thus having to send a bunch of Genins after Sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    But you have no evidence showing that Ichigo wasn't ready to learn the fnal form before going to Hueco Mundo. You don't need Hollow powers to do the final getsuga tenshou.
    Yes I do. The only way you can claim that is if you completely ignore how it was shown that Ichigo had too little control over his powers. We're talking about a major plot point here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Doesn''t matter. Databooks are the notes of the author or an authorized 3rd party. When you critique a work you use the work itself to make the arguments. Not the notes, because those aren't in the work. So it's secondary material, not primary. So while it's in Kishi's notes it's not is the manga itself, so it's always treated with a grain of salt.
    The databooks aren't “notes”. They were specifically written for the readers. The databooks were written by Kishi to explain things he couldn't in the manga.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No, there aren't many real world examples of people being a grandfather at age 20. That's were you are wrong. Additionally, you have no evidence that it happened that early. It has to happen that early because you need it to support your house of cards, not because that is what actually happened. Like that picture of that guy having grey hair in his beard at 80. Kind of proved my point, doesn't it. Everyone who is elderly in this series has grey or white hair. Sarutobi, Chiyo, Oonoki, Mito, Madara Sarutobi's two councellors all have grey/white hair. It's natural to expect old people to have grey/white hair when they're older. Danzou's doesn't in his 60's but that doesn't mean he won't in his 90's. because people age. It's a fact of life. There is no reason why Izuna wouldn't have grey/white hair at 90. So since Tobi has black hair he can't be Izuna. Once again "then one day" is a dimensionless unit that doesn't tell you how much time passed before the village was founded. Both Tobi and Hashirama are talking about Madara using the same timneline there's no reason why the story starts over 80+ years ago and Madara being 10 when Hashirama first meet Madara aren't linked.
    There are real world examples of women getting pregnant at ten and below. That's what we're discussing here. And you ignoring evidence and calling it a house of cards does not make it so. It really doesn't prove your point, since your claim was that one couldn't have black hair at that age and I showed otherwise. And everyone doesn't, as shown with Danzo. And since Izuna wouldn't be 90, that's a moot claim. It seems more like you're the one clinging to a house of cards here. It's not the same timeframe when they begin at different points, as Obito begins before the two meet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Sure it does. Sarutobi is 17+ years younger than Izuna and Sarutobi has grey hair along iwth all the other older people. That shows Tobi can't be Izuna because he's too old. Still a worse plothole that Obito.
    Except there's Danzo who was the same age as Sarutobi and didn't have gray hair. So no, no it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    There are 3+ years for all those events to happen and you have no evidence to support your claims. Still no plothole.
    No, there's only a max of two years. Kakashi was 15 when Naruto was born, and Obito “died” on his 13th birthday. And I have given plenty of evidence to support my claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Sure it accelerates the rate but that still doesn't mean 1 person can use it. 4 people can move a table faster than 2 people, but that doesn't mean 1 person move it by himself. Those are two different things.
    One person can move a table, so I'm not sure why you would use that as an example. Regardless, the point remains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I'm talking about the Sasuke pursuit party and meeitng Naruto en route to Iron Mountain. He was delaying their actions so you don't need to engage your targets so why tip your hand if you don't have to. Just because Obito can use a fire ninjutu doesn't make him strong. Kishi does explains Madara's reason for waiting, he was caught in a feable state of existance due to his battle of Hashirama. Izuna has no excuse why he sat on his ass for 50 years doing nothing.
    Why would you be talking about them when the discussion was about his three actual fights? And being able to use the Great Fireball technique does mean that. Not only was it stated as the sign of a adult Uchiha, but we saw with Sasuke that being able to use it as a genin was a major deal according to Kakashi. And no, Kishi didn't explain Madara's reasons. That was Obito's excuse, which wasn't even true. Madara didn't end up in a feeble state until near his death, and even then he wasn't that feeble considering he was able to find Nagato and transplant his eyes. So until it's explain for Madara, Izuna doesn't need an explanation either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You're going to destroy a village with a bijuu for greed? A country which has had no reason to involve itself with the outside shinobi world then one day decieds to destroy people? Orochimaru had greivances with the village. He didn't like being passed over for Hokage or the limkitations in ninjutsu experiments. He had grudges.
    Orochimaru didn't have any grievance nor did he hold a grudge. He outright stated that his reason for attacking was simply to “make the windmill move”. Orochimaru has never been shown to be the sort of person to possess a grudge. Heck, his current actions show that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Not at all. And when exactly did he become Hokage? Obviously before Naruto's birth but how long ago? How long did the Kakashi Gaiden arc happen before that? We don't know. Lastly you haven't linked that to Yahiko's timeline since we don't know when Yahiko died just that it happened in the 3rd Shinobi War.
    There's only a two year gap where it could have happened. And how is Yahiko's timeline not linked when we're talking about when the Third World War ended? Again, it ended before Minato became Hokage, yet that clearly was changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    That still doesn't prove he acted on the conversation yet. Kishi confirms that he hasn't with Kakshi's conflict on trying to retain the memories of the good Obito. So while he had his conversation with dear old dad, he clearly hadn't moved on yet. Is part of this Kakashi's fault. Yes, it is. The series of events are partly due to his actions in the Third Shinobi War. How he grows after processing this information as the war conlcudes should prove interesting.
    What do you mean acted on the conversation? That in itself would be it. And as said before, you can't use the plothole as proof that it isn't a plothole. And no, it's not gonna prove interesting. It can't. You can't have a character become guilty of such a major problem and then have it brushed away. It's the entire reason that Kishi has avoided having Sasuke do something actually evil despite him suppose being a major crazy villain.

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  5. #94
    MH's Best Reviewer MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    I dread Naruto chapters right now. Absolutely dread them. It seems like every week I see what it's become and compare it to what it was and every time I feel like the guy in Grosse Point Blank when he returns to his family home only to find it's been turned into a convenience store.


    The obvious thing to do in my situation is to stop reading but for reasons even I don't understand anymore I feel compelled to see the series to the bitter end. Even though I readily acknowledge I should probably just stop reading. It brings me no joy.

    At least not until Bloomer writes her CAPSLOCK.
    Last edited by Jammin; August 19, 2013 at 07:55 PM.
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  7. #95
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Not sure at all how that would be considered a better example.
    Because that was a genocide.

    Quote Quote:
    No, it takes more then one person to start up the cycle of hatred again. It didn't work for Sarutobi because he never got a change to attempt it, and it has worked fine for Gaara. Heck, considering Gaara has become beloved in Suna despite his past as a mass murderer, you're clearly wrong there. And what are you talking about? Everyone isn't involved, which has been one of the complains made earlier that you wrote off.
    Pein's blowing up the Leaf village contradicts that. it only took Yahiko's death and look what happened. Sarutobi had decades to change the will and minds of his subjects and failed. Just because Gaara is likable now doesn't means he can break his people out of the cycle of hate. They are separate issues.

    Quote Quote:
    You haven't provided anything supporting your claim that they were used more then occasionally. You're the one who keeps attempting to make it as if I claimed they weren't used.
    How many ancient battles and books cited are needed to refute your claim? I can compile a list but you won't accept it. You're wrong but you won't admit it. I can't help that.

    Quote Quote:
    Of course it does. That's the whole point of this war, the effects. The war itself doesn't matter since we already know the outcome of it. And once again, yes he was. How are you gonna keep going against what was actually shown in the series? He didn't go crazy before because the events that changed him was Yahiko's death. That's what cause him to give up on his original belief of peace. He changed right after that, something that was specifically shown.
    No, the whole point of this war is to determine which governing philosophy will determine the future of the shinobi world, not tragic outcome of the unfortunate. Yeah, and how many other deaths and wars took place before that happened? I'm sure it was more than 48 hours worth, my point is just because Nagato's character was transformed after many battles and wars culminating in the death of Yahiko doesn't mean everyone in this war is going to undergo a similar transformation.

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    Given that my example was about Chibi's death, so? Pretty sure I never claim that wasn't before they met Jiraiya... And as mentioned, we saw how it affected her. She developed the same way as Nagato.
    Really? Konan felt the same way about life, war, peace, and love like Nagato did? Please show me where she felt any of those beliefs and how war specifically was the cause of the change to her moral center.

    Quote Quote:
    There's no “misguided frustrations”. It's really annoying how you keep attempting to claim how we feel. And that's just ridiculous. You speak as if the battles and missions in Naruto are void of any sort of tactics, when it's been quite a major part of them since the very beginning of this series. Seriously, look at any fight involving Shikamaru or Sasuke. I really shouldn't have to tell you that. And character development is the main reason to even have this war. I mean, you do realize that the outcome of the war was already determined before it began. You do realize that it's a foregone conclusion that Naruto will defeat Obito and prevent the Infinite Tsukuyomi, right?
    It's not my fault you incorrectly try to associate two different items, switch their order of association and are stunned to be told that you're doing it wrong. Naruto's gong to win? Didn't see that coming. Nor did we see that Shisui's eye was going to release Itachi from Kabuto's control, or that senjutsu attacks work on the Jyuubi or that Naruto can transfer bijuu energy to anyone he wants. This is shounen, of course Naruto will win, but the question is how.

    Quote Quote:
    And again, the war has been going on for some time. In fact, it's nearing the conclusion, and is basically over for the minor and secondary characters. So there's no “cart before the horse” going on. There;s no reason we shouldn’t be seeing the effect it has had on them, especially since as I have repeatedly mentioned, the effect has never taken that long to appear.
    It's been less than 48 hours. Your first error was assuming that war was going to be a platform for neglected characters to get decent character development. Your second error is to assume that all future character development is gone because we are now heading toward the climax. There a literary device called a denoument and lots of character development occurs in these parts as well. So just because it doesn't happen on the battlefield doesn't mean it won't happen later. So yeah you're still putting the cart before the horse.

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    Then please provide a link. And no, Nagato didn't. Nagato spoke of revenge, which he himself was undertaking at that moment. Now unless you;re gonna claim that Pain's invasion was a war, then it clearly didn't involve that. Same with Kakashi.
    Chapter 437. How love breeds sacrifice which breeds hatred and the give fuel to the cycle and war ensues. Both Jiraiya and Nagato sees these as the symptoms, they just try to treat the disease differently.

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    It does when the character acknowledges it right there in the series itself. They outright comment towards Suna, not Orochimaru. And what? First off, you mean when Orochimaru lost. Secondly, we saw them retreating after Orochimaru retreated. And third, Konoha wasn't winning. The entire point was that Konoha was losing, which was why they ended up devastated afterward and resulted in their desire for a Sannin as Hokage as a show of power, not to mention the whole thing with having all their available ninjas on missions and thus having to send a bunch of Genins after Sasuke.
    Saying "It's them" after a scout identifies the enemy is a neutral statement. It doesn't confirm anything. Right....Konoha was losing but won. Konoha losing, turning it around, and routing the enemy would be a better assessment. But the Sand/Fire Alliance had the Leaf as the victors and the Sand hung with the head in defeat. If the Leaf was losing they can't really dictate the terms of the alliance now can they.

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    Yes I do. The only way you can claim that is if you completely ignore how it was shown that Ichigo had too little control over his powers. We're talking about a major plot point here.
    Ichigo never had control of his powers, they manifest when he needed them not because he has control over them. Still doesn't change the fact that it was a Shinigami attack that defeated Aizen and wasn't taught in Hueco Mundo. Still a waste of trees,

    Quote Quote:
    The databooks aren't “notes”. They were specifically written for the readers. The databooks were written by Kishi to explain things he couldn't in the manga.
    He couldn't stay "The Leaf village. formed 60 years ago, was a ....? I could do it but he can't? It's not that he can't it's that he chooses not to so he get strapped down into these time plotholes that you are trying to catch him at. That's why he doesn't use dates. So the 60 years is a questionable point in the timeline.

    Quote Quote:
    There are real world examples of women getting pregnant at ten and below. That's what we're discussing here. And you ignoring evidence and calling it a house of cards does not make it so. It really doesn't prove your point, since your claim was that one couldn't have black hair at that age and I showed otherwise. And everyone doesn't, as shown with Danzo. And since Izuna wouldn't be 90, that's a moot claim. It seems more like you're the one clinging to a house of cards here. It's not the same timeframe when they begin at different points, as Obito begins before the two meet.
    Girls don't menstruate in the 3rd grade (age 9). Didn't they teach sex ed at your school? So no, it's impossible for Hashirama to be a grandfather at 20. I'm not ignoring evidence, I'm ignoring you're unfounded speculation and conjecture. You don't know how long Madara and Izuna fought until Izuna "died", you don't know how long Madara fought afterwards until the village was founded. You showed one person having black hair but grey in his beard, unfortunately his name wasn't Izuna Uchiha. In fact almost all of the old people, especially those "older" than Danzou and Sarutobi have grey or white hair. So why wouldn't Izuna who is older than anyone alive not have grey hair? Because you want your candidate to be Tobi, npt because Izuna would have had black hair at 90. People in their 90's don't have black hair. Hell most are grey by their 50's in manga and real life. As one gets older it becomes statistically impossible. Just because you found 1 person in the real world with black hair doesn't change the fact that the other 99.99999% don't, nor does it exclude Izuna from being in that 99.99999%. Izuna can't be Tobi due to physiological or chronological means. A still worse plothole than Obito.

    Quote Quote:
    Except there's Danzo who was the same age as Sarutobi and didn't have gray hair. So no, no it doesn't.
    Except Izuna is 20+ years older and you can't claim that Danzou will still have black hair in another 20 years.

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    No, there's only a max of two years. Kakashi was 15 when Naruto was born, and Obito “died” on his 13th birthday. And I have given plenty of evidence to support my claim.
    Where does it say Kakashi was 15 when the Kyuubi attacked? No, you have plenty of unfounded speculation of what if's and maybe, but no evidence. All those events had plenty of time to materialize. Still not plothole.

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    One person can move a table, so I'm not sure why you would use that as an example. Regardless, the point remains.
    And some people can't move a table all by themselves. The problem is we don't which scenario we have here so the ambiguity still remains. Even if your scenario is the correct one it doesn't explain why Izuna sat on his ass for 50 years if he could have collected the bijuus all by himself. A more pathetic scenario.

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    Why would you be talking about them when the discussion was about his three actual fights? And being able to use the Great Fireball technique does mean that. Not only was it stated as the sign of a adult Uchiha, but we saw with Sasuke that being able to use it as a genin was a major deal according to Kakashi. And no, Kishi didn't explain Madara's reasons. That was Obito's excuse, which wasn't even true. Madara didn't end up in a feeble state until near his death, and even then he wasn't that feeble considering he was able to find Nagato and transplant his eyes. So until it's explain for Madara, Izuna doesn't need an explanation either.
    No, the debate was overusing Kamui is a sign of weakness. But there are many viable reasons for Tobi to behave this way including not showing all your abilities to your enemy if you don't have to. Just because you use a technique that can't be countered doesn't mean it's a sign of weakness. Just because the fire technique was a rite of passage doesn't mean you're strong. Obito was older than Sasuke he should have been able to do it. Just because he can proves nothing.

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    Orochimaru didn't have any grievance nor did he hold a grudge. He outright stated that his reason for attacking was simply to “make the windmill move”. Orochimaru has never been shown to be the sort of person to possess a grudge. Heck, his current actions show that.
    Of course he did. He stood up there like Sasuke did envisioning the demise of the Leaf village. Yes, he said it was a whim, but later on we learned he did have issues of the appointment of the 4th Hokage, pursuit of Forbidden jutsu, and how he stood there developing the resolve the destroy the village. It wasn't just a mere whim.

    Quote Quote:
    There's only a two year gap where it could have happened. And how is Yahiko's timeline not linked when we're talking about when the Third World War ended? Again, it ended before Minato became Hokage, yet that clearly was changed.
    You have 1 bookend but not the second. Still it doesn't prevent Obito from meeting Yahiko since we don't know where in the timeline that Yahiko dies.

    Quote Quote:
    What do you mean acted on the conversation? That in itself would be it. And as said before, you can't use the plothole as proof that it isn't a plothole. And no, it's not gonna prove interesting. It can't. You can't have a character become guilty of such a major problem and then have it brushed away. It's the entire reason that Kishi has avoided having Sasuke do something actually evil despite him suppose being a major crazy villain.
    Just because Kakashi has a conversation on changing his ways doesn't mean he did it at that moment. It could be at that moment, but it could also be a day later, or a year later, or never. That's why you need evidence to confirm he has. You don't. But you don't want to validate Obito's claim for being Tobi due to necessary character development for Kakashi so you cry retcon. The reality is that Kakashi hasn't moved on and the author states it. So it's not a retcon and you guessed incorrectly. Kakashi needs to come to terms with the death of Obito and what happened to his friend afterwards. Will it break him from his daily morbid ritual. Hopefully, yes.
    Last edited by Brill; August 20, 2013 at 07:32 AM.

  8. #96
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Because that was a genocide.
    And I'm still not seeing it. It's civil war and genocide were separate events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Pein's blowing up the Leaf village contradicts that. it only took Yahiko's death and look what happened. Sarutobi had decades to change the will and minds of his subjects and failed. Just because Gaara is likable now doesn't means he can break his people out of the cycle of hate. They are separate issues.
    How does that contradict it? Nagato's hatred against Konoha was due to more then Yahiko's death, and that event didn't create any cycle. It ended with Nagato and his death. Unless you can show that Sarutobi actually attempting to do so, him having the time to do so means nothing. And Gaara being loved does show he broke the cycle, else he wouldn't be loved by them. They would be hating him and attempting to take their revenge upon him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    How many ancient battles and books cited are needed to refute your claim? I can compile a list but you won't accept it. You're wrong but you won't admit it. I can't help that.
    No, you're the one who's wrong. Your logic makes no sense. Saying that because there was the occasional example means that it was widespread is just foolish. That would be like me claiming that because there were a few civilizations that knew the earth revolved around the sun, that everyone knew that, or that because there were a handful who understood and could create viable automobiles and aircraft that everyone could. It's clearly illogical. I would love a list showing that tactics were constantly used over and over again by some group. Give me more then the occasional usage, and I will admit I am wrong. And to be absolutely clear, we're talking about a group of people using a tactic more then once or twice in more then one or two battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No, the whole point of this war is to determine which governing philosophy will determine the future of the shinobi world, not tragic outcome of the unfortunate. Yeah, and how many other deaths and wars took place before that happened? I'm sure it was more than 48 hours worth, my point is just because Nagato's character was transformed after many battles and wars culminating in the death of Yahiko doesn't mean everyone in this war is going to undergo a similar transformation.
    No it's not. You really believe that Obito's and Madara's philosophy has even the slightest chance of succeeding? I don't even know what to say to that. What does those other wars or deaths have to do with Nagato changing, when the ENTIRE reason he changed was specifically because Yahiko died right then and there. Please explain where this additional factor is coming from. And it's not everyone, it's the important characters, like Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Really? Konan felt the same way about life, war, peace, and love like Nagato did? Please show me where she felt any of those beliefs and how war specifically was the cause of the change to her moral center.
    Here, and here, and here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    It's not my fault you incorrectly try to associate two different items, switch their order of association and are stunned to be told that you're doing it wrong. Naruto's gong to win? Didn't see that coming. Nor did we see that Shisui's eye was going to release Itachi from Kabuto's control, or that senjutsu attacks work on the Jyuubi or that Naruto can transfer bijuu energy to anyone he wants. This is shounen, of course Naruto will win, but the question is how.
    See, that's not what's going on here though. It's just like how you criticized people for wanting rape and bloody violence when literally no one mentioned anything of the sort. That may be what you want us to desire so that it's easily to shoot down, but that doesn't make it the truth. And the how involves character development. There would be no question if the characters remained static.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    It's been less than 48 hours. Your first error was assuming that war was going to be a platform for neglected characters to get decent character development. Your second error is to assume that all future character development is gone because we are now heading toward the climax. There a literary device called a denoument and lots of character development occurs in these parts as well. So just because it doesn't happen on the battlefield doesn't mean it won't happen later. So yeah you're still putting the cart before the horse.
    First off, the time doesn't matter. Pain's invasion couldn't have been more then a few hours, yet we were given numerous character developments. Secondly, it was assumed because that's the way it had always been in the past. The entire reason people are disliking it is because it's not living up to what we were given to expect. Third, we are talking about a manga here. The majority of time, there is no denouement arc after the final big arc. At most, there would be a final chapter to possibility tie up loose ends. Not only that, but that's how it's normally done by Kishi. I mean, the only example of development afterward would be the whole revelation with Itachi, and even that wasn't the end of that. I mean, if you can name a manga where the character development happen after the final battle or whatever, I would love to know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Chapter 437. How love breeds sacrifice which breeds hatred and the give fuel to the cycle and war ensues. Both Jiraiya and Nagato sees these as the symptoms, they just try to treat the disease differently.
    Nowhere in Chp 437 shows Jiraiya mentioning a connection toward war. There's only the aforementioned cycle of hatred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Saying "It's them" after a scout identifies the enemy is a neutral statement. It doesn't confirm anything. Right....Konoha was losing but won. Konoha losing, turning it around, and routing the enemy would be a better assessment. But the Sand/Fire Alliance had the Leaf as the victors and the Sand hung with the head in defeat. If the Leaf was losing they can't really dictate the terms of the alliance now can they.
    Finally, they come” is not a neutral statement. It's outright confirmation that he was expecting them. Konoha won due to Orochimaru retreating, and the fact that Gaara was taken out of the village. There was no routing. It was a Pyrrhic Victory given what had happen. And Suna surrendered when they discovered that their Kazekage had been killed and Orochimaru had been manipulating them. That doesn't change that it was outright mentioned how Konoha had gotten devastated and such, and they were so worried about another attack that they wanted a new Hokage imminently. And Konoha didn't dictate any terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Ichigo never had control of his powers, they manifest when he needed them not because he has control over them. Still doesn't change the fact that it was a Shinigami attack that defeated Aizen and wasn't taught in Hueco Mundo. Still a waste of trees,
    Yeah, Ichigo didn't have control. He gained that control in the Hueco Mundo battles. He was only able to reach that control and get to that point because of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    He couldn't stay "The Leaf village. formed 60 years ago, was a ....? I could do it but he can't? It's not that he can't it's that he chooses not to so he get strapped down into these time plotholes that you are trying to catch him at. That's why he doesn't use dates. So the 60 years is a questionable point in the timeline.
    If he was worried about getting strapped down with timeline plotholes then he wouldn't have mentioned it in the first place, or mentioned any sort of time at all. Yet this isn't the only time plothole we have. There's the whole issue with Orochimaru leaving Akatsuki, era of the Bloody Mist, and the situation with the Ame orphans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Girls don't menstruate in the 3rd grade (age 9). Didn't they teach sex ed at your school? So no, it's impossible for Hashirama to be a grandfather at 20. I'm not ignoring evidence, I'm ignoring you're unfounded speculation and conjecture. You don't know how long Madara and Izuna fought until Izuna "died", you don't know how long Madara fought afterwards until the village was founded. You showed one person having black hair but grey in his beard, unfortunately his name wasn't Izuna Uchiha. In fact almost all of the old people, especially those "older" than Danzou and Sarutobi have grey or white hair. So why wouldn't Izuna who is older than anyone alive not have grey hair? Because you want your candidate to be Tobi, npt because Izuna would have had black hair at 90. People in their 90's don't have black hair. Hell most are grey by their 50's in manga and real life. As one gets older it becomes statistically impossible. Just because you found 1 person in the real world with black hair doesn't change the fact that the other 99.99999% don't, nor does it exclude Izuna from being in that 99.99999%. Izuna can't be Tobi due to physiological or chronological means. A still worse plothole than Obito.
    You know, it's a shame there's not this thing where one would be able to type in a question and instantly discover an answer... Oh wait, it's called the internet. Here you go. And here. And here. So what were you saying about it being impossible.

    You have been ignoring evidence and there's nothing unfounded about it. We can clearly see that Izuna was in his teens when he died, and the series shows that the founding of the village happen soon after that. Almost is not all, so you trying to argue as such just doesn't fly. And actually, there is another person I forgot, who's as old as Hashirama and Madara and still had black hair: Kakuzu who was stated to be 91. So even that argument doesn't fly. And your comments about people being gray is moot here. Neither Kakashi nor his father were that old and they were gray. Now less you can specifically prove that Izuna would be part of that 99.99999%, then that's moot as he can just as easily be apart of that 00.00001%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Except Izuna is 20+ years older and you can't claim that Danzou will still have black hair in another 20 years.
    Except that Izuna isn't 20+ years older, nor do I have to prove that Danzo would have to have black hair for an age that Izuna isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Where does it say Kakashi was 15 when the Kyuubi attacked? No, you have plenty of unfounded speculation of what if's and maybe, but no evidence. All those events had plenty of time to materialize. Still not plothole.
    The databook has his current age at 30, and two years is not enough time with what we previous were given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And some people can't move a table all by themselves. The problem is we don't which scenario we have here so the ambiguity still remains. Even if your scenario is the correct one it doesn't explain why Izuna sat on his ass for 50 years if he could have collected the bijuus all by himself. A more pathetic scenario.
    Unless you're speaking about a child, moving a table is not that complicated. And an explanation isn't needed as previously mentioned until there's an explanation for why Madara did the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No, the debate was overusing Kamui is a sign of weakness. But there are many viable reasons for Tobi to behave this way including not showing all your abilities to your enemy if you don't have to. Just because you use a technique that can't be countered doesn't mean it's a sign of weakness. Just because the fire technique was a rite of passage doesn't mean you're strong. Obito was older than Sasuke he should have been able to do it. Just because he can proves nothing.
    No, It was specifically when he couldn't use Kamui that was the sign of weakness. Thus the mentioning that he wasn't much without it. There was no logical reason for Obito to hold back, especially when he was expecting to kill his opponent. And again, it was specifically mentioned that the Great Fireball wasn't something a genin would have been capable of. Obito was a year older, and still a genin, so the point remains the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Of course he did. He stood up there like Sasuke did envisioning the demise of the Leaf village. Yes, he said it was a whim, but later on we learned he did have issues of the appointment of the 4th Hokage, pursuit of Forbidden jutsu, and how he stood there developing the resolve the destroy the village. It wasn't just a mere whim.
    When was it shown h had issues with the appointment of Hokage, or the pursuit of forbidden techniques? There's is nothing to suggest that his resolve was anything other then what he has stated several times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You have 1 bookend but not the second. Still it doesn't prevent Obito from meeting Yahiko since we don't know where in the timeline that Yahiko dies.
    What are you talking about. We know when the war was suppose to have ended, and we know that Yahiko was still alive long after that point. Not to mention that they should have already been fighting as Akatsuki by that time, given that they became famous a few years after Jiraiya left them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Just because Kakashi has a conversation on changing his ways doesn't mean he did it at that moment. It could be at that moment, but it could also be a day later, or a year later, or never. That's why you need evidence to confirm he has. You don't. But you don't want to validate Obito's claim for being Tobi due to necessary character development for Kakashi so you cry retcon. The reality is that Kakashi hasn't moved on and the author states it. So it's not a retcon and you guessed incorrectly. Kakashi needs to come to terms with the death of Obito and what happened to his friend afterwards. Will it break him from his daily morbid ritual. Hopefully, yes.
    That is what it means, there's would have been no point to it otherwise. We have the evidence, along with nothing to suggest that he hadn't moved on before the revelation. And again, are you not the one who claims character development doesn't have a role in this war? He had already come to terms with Obito's death, and this isn't gonna help that. It's no longer about Obito's death. It's now about Kakashi being directly responsible for Obito going bad and thus all the bad things that have happen sense. It's his fault that Obito sided with Madara and it's his fault that Kushina was even targeted. There's no longer anything to come to terms with. And considering that the “daily morbid ritual” was no longer being mentioned, trying to make it a factor is just silly.
    Last edited by Rikudou King; August 21, 2013 at 11:35 PM.

  9. #97
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    And I'm still not seeing it. It's civil war and genocide were separate events.
    Because a genocide is indiscriminate killing. If you were a tutsi whether militant or civilian refugee you were killed. That's the difference.

    Quote Quote:
    How does that contradict it? Nagato's hatred against Konoha was due to more then Yahiko's death, and that event didn't create any cycle. It ended with Nagato and his death. Unless you can show that Sarutobi actually attempting to do so, him having the time to do so means nothing. And Gaara being loved does show he broke the cycle, else he wouldn't be loved by them. They would be hating him and attempting to take their revenge upon him.
    Yes it does, your argument was one death would not start the cycle. One death was all it took for Nagato to go evil and try to enslave the world in fear. If Yahiko hadn't died Jiraiya, some of the bijuu would be alive, the Akatsuki would be different and Konoha wouldn't have been destroyed. One is enough.

    Quote Quote:
    No, you're the one who's wrong. Your logic makes no sense. Saying that because there was the occasional example means that it was widespread is just foolish. That would be like me claiming that because there were a few civilizations that knew the earth revolved around the sun, that everyone knew that, or that because there were a handful who understood and could create viable automobiles and aircraft that everyone could. It's clearly illogical. I would love a list showing that tactics were constantly used over and over again by some group. Give me more then the occasional usage, and I will admit I am wrong. And to be absolutely clear, we're talking about a group of people using a tactic more then once or twice in more then one or two battles.
    You're the one claiming it was occasional. Not me. I give you historical examples and you won't concede the point. You're just being obstinate. Whether it's one group or several doesn't change the fact that these manuevers have been around for millenia by various civilizations. You erred, not me.

    Quote Quote:
    No it's not. You really believe that Obito's and Madara's philosophy has even the slightest chance of succeeding? I don't even know what to say to that. What does those other wars or deaths have to do with Nagato changing, when the ENTIRE reason he changed was specifically because Yahiko died right then and there. Please explain where this additional factor is coming from. And it's not everyone, it's the important characters, like Naruto.
    Loser's causes are causes too. Just because they lose doesn't negate the cause. The reason is he fought all those battles and lost all those people and Nagato didn't change until Yahiko. Now in the current battle people are fighitng and aren't swticfhing like Nagato did because their triggers weren't pulled and you're crying foul.

    Quote Quote:
    Here, and here, and here.
    Nothing, nothing, and nothing. I ask you how the war changed Konan and you quote errant statements about supporting and protecting her friends. Was she really such a callous bitch beforehand? i didn't think so.

    Quote Quote:
    See, that's not what's going on here though. It's just like how you criticized people for wanting rape and bloody violence when literally no one mentioned anything of the sort. That may be what you want us to desire so that it's easily to shoot down, but that doesn't make it the truth. And the how involves character development. There would be no question if the characters remained static.
    Oh, it's exactly what's going on here. You and others are dissatisifed with the effects of this war. That's a legitimate, debatable topic. However, just because you're dissatisfied with the outcomes doesn't negate the fact that a war is taking place. It may be a great war, or a mediocre war, or a lousy war, but it's still a war.

    Quote Quote:
    First off, the time doesn't matter. Pain's invasion couldn't have been more then a few hours, yet we were given numerous character developments. Secondly, it was assumed because that's the way it had always been in the past. The entire reason people are disliking it is because it's not living up to what we were given to expect. Third, we are talking about a manga here. The majority of time, there is no denouement arc after the final big arc. At most, there would be a final chapter to possibility tie up loose ends. Not only that, but that's how it's normally done by Kishi. I mean, the only example of development afterward would be the whole revelation with Itachi, and even that wasn't the end of that. I mean, if you can name a manga where the character development happen after the final battle or whatever, I would love to know it.
    Here we go again. Characterization does not make an event a war. Because the Chuunin exam wasn't a war and it had the biggest character development. followed up by the attack of Zabuza. That wasn't a war either. Just because Kishi doesn't meet your expectation on the effects of war doesn't negate the war storyline. Those are two different things and are not related in the way you hope them to be. There are several series with denouments. Inuyasha, Full Metal Alchemist, Negima, Rurouni Kenshin all had denouments, some were final chapters others went a bit longer, but development occured to characters after the final battle.

    Quote Quote:
    Nowhere in Chp 437 shows Jiraiya mentioning a connection toward war. There's only the aforementioned cycle of hatred.
    And that's what fuels the wars.

    Quote Quote:
    Finally, they come” is not a neutral statement. It's outright confirmation that he was expecting them. Konoha won due to Orochimaru retreating, and the fact that Gaara was taken out of the village. There was no routing. It was a Pyrrhic Victory given what had happen. And Suna surrendered when they discovered that their Kazekage had been killed and Orochimaru had been manipulating them. That doesn't change that it was outright mentioned how Konoha had gotten devastated and such, and they were so worried about another attack that they wanted a new Hokage imminently. And Konoha didn't dictate any terms.
    Yes it is. He didn't say Sand, did he? He said them, it's a neutral term. If he had said "It's them our intel was correct" then you'd have some weight to your argument. But it's a neutral statement, confirming an enemy is present but not who it was. Konoha won because they had beaten the invaders, why would the Sand retreat because Orochimaru left? They don't follow his orders, they were already beaten.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, Ichigo didn't have control. He gained that control in the Hueco Mundo battles. He was only able to reach that control and get to that point because of that.
    Bzzt! He gained control just two chapters ago after realizing what his powers were. Almost a year after the battle, try again.

    Quote Quote:
    If he was worried about getting strapped down with timeline plotholes then he wouldn't have mentioned it in the first place, or mentioned any sort of time at all. Yet this isn't the only time plothole we have. There's the whole issue with Orochimaru leaving Akatsuki, era of the Bloody Mist, and the situation with the Ame orphans.
    The plothole isn't his it's yours, trying to make Izuna younger than he actually is. The Bloody Mist and Ame children aren't, che only one that is may be is when Orchimaru left the Akatsuki but that has no impact on the war.

    Quote Quote:
    You know, it's a shame there's not this thing where one would be able to type in a question and instantly discover an answer... Oh wait, it's called the internet. Here you go. And here. And here. So what were you saying about it being impossible.
    And does Mito have precocious puberty which is a medical condition where the sex organs develop prematurely because that is what your poster child had. You find 100 females out of over 6 billion born between 1800 and 2013, most through non-consensual sex (incest, rape, sex trade) and you're claiming this is the norm? The odds for it happening to a female is 1 in 60,000,000. To happen twice is another 1 in 60,000,0000 which is 0.0000000000000003% combined. So on paper it's not zero, but in reality it's impossible. Let's not forget you have no evidence that they did conceive that early. So yeah, Izuna is older than you claim he is. Try again.

    Quote Quote:
    You have been ignoring evidence and there's nothing unfounded about it. We can clearly see that Izuna was in his teens when he died, and the series shows that the founding of the village happen soon after that. Almost is not all, so you trying to argue as such just doesn't fly. And actually, there is another person I forgot, who's as old as Hashirama and Madara and still had black hair: Kakuzu who was stated to be 91. So even that argument doesn't fly. And your comments about people being gray is moot here. Neither Kakashi nor his father were that old and they were gray. Now less you can specifically prove that Izuna would be part of that 99.99999%, then that's moot as he can just as easily be apart of that 00.00001%.
    I have no problem with Izuna dying in his teens, the question has always been how muich longer did they fight? "And then one day" is dimensionless. Was it 1, 5, 10, 15 years? We don't know how much time expired, that's been your problem. Kakuzu? Seriously? The guy wasn't even a normal human anymore, who's to say that was his natural hair? If it were true, then all old people would have black hair, but alas they do not. People have been trying to elude Father TIme for centuries but you crappy arument is not going to beat Him either. Izuna is too old to be Tobi.

    Quote Quote:
    Except that Izuna isn't 20+ years older, nor do I have to prove that Danzo would have to have black hair for an age that Izuna isn't.
    But he is 20+ years older, and you do have to prove Danzou having black hair in his 90's because it's the entire foundation for your argument that Izuna can be Tobi. All the people in the 60's have grey hair except Danzou, and everyone older than Danzou has grey/white hair. I'm not trying to turn back the clock here, you are and you haven'tp roven anything. Izuna can't be Tobi because he jsut too damn old a worse plothole than Obito.

    Quote Quote:
    The databook has his current age at 30, and two years is not enough time with what we previous were given.
    So, it's not in the manga. So we really don't know how much time has expired between these two events. You can't prove the plothole you're claiming that has been violated. Next.

    Quote Quote:
    Unless you're speaking about a child, moving a table is not that complicated. And an explanation isn't needed as previously mentioned until there's an explanation for why Madara did the same.
    You don't know how big or heavy the table is nor do you know how strong the person is. No specifics about the table are given so you can't claim whether or not a single person can move it or not. Just because multiple people can move it doesn't 1 person can do it all by themselves. That's the fault in your argument.

    Quote Quote:
    No, It was specifically when he couldn't use Kamui that was the sign of weakness. Thus the mentioning that he wasn't much without it. There was no logical reason for Obito to hold back, especially when he was expecting to kill his opponent. And again, it was specifically mentioned that the Great Fireball wasn't something a genin would have been capable of. Obito was a year older, and still a genin, so the point remains the same.
    Where does it say that? Tobi feigns weaknees but was it true or not? Who can tell? Just because you have a killer move doesn't mean you have to use it against their enemies. Villians and their authors can behave in any way they choose to regardless of the views of the peanut gallery.

    Quote Quote:
    What are you talking about. We know when the war was suppose to have ended, and we know that Yahiko was still alive long after that point. Not to mention that they should have already been fighting as Akatsuki by that time, given that they became famous a few years after Jiraiya left them.
    Huh? Where do we know Yahiko was alive after that? All you have are 3 events. Obito's death, Yahiko's death, and the end of the war. We have no clue how much time pased between ANY of these events so you can't claim plothole if you don't know anything about how all three points relate to one another, and we don't.

    Quote Quote:
    That is what it means, there's would have been no point to it otherwise. We have the evidence, along with nothing to suggest that he hadn't moved on before the revelation. And again, are you not the one who claims character development doesn't have a role in this war? He had already come to terms with Obito's death, and this isn't gonna help that. It's no longer about Obito's death. It's now about Kakashi being directly responsible for Obito going bad and thus all the bad things that have happen sense. It's his fault that Obito sided with Madara and it's his fault that Kushina was even targeted. There's no longer anything to come to terms with. And considering that the “daily morbid ritual” was no longer being mentioned, trying to make it a factor is just silly.
    You still can't distringuish between the two, can you. Just because Kakashi decided to move on doesn't mean he has moved ion. If I decide today to lose 10 pounds but if I don't go to the gym tomorrow and still continue to eat the way I usually do, have I lost 10 pounds? Have I moved on? The answer is no, I haven't. The same is true for Kakashi, He had his revelation with Dad but did he move on? Kishi decided he hadn't and thus Obito and Kakashi fought each other so Kakashi can see how his friend was twisted by evil and what effects this will have on Kakashi's life after the war concludes. That's a reason for making Obito, Tobi.

  10. #98
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Because a genocide is indiscriminate killing. If you were a tutsi whether militant or civilian refugee you were killed. That's the difference.
    And that changes my original claim how?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes it does, your argument was one death would not start the cycle. One death was all it took for Nagato to go evil and try to enslave the world in fear. If Yahiko hadn't died Jiraiya, some of the bijuu would be alive, the Akatsuki would be different and Konoha wouldn't have been destroyed. One is enough.
    And one death didn't, since Nagato's issues against Konoha went all the way back to the death of his parents. It does take more then a single death, thus the reason a cycle wasn't started when Konoha killed that Kuumo ninja. Yahiko's death made Nagato turn away from the original path of peace, it was Obito who fueled the conquering of the world. And since Obito would still have been around, the only thing that likely would have been different would have been Jiraiya.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You're the one claiming it was occasional. Not me. I give you historical examples and you won't concede the point. You're just being obstinate. Whether it's one group or several doesn't change the fact that these manuevers have been around for millenia by various civilizations. You erred, not me.
    Yes, and you haven't shown differently. How exactly are you gonna claim I'm gonna do something before I have even done anything? And how did I err? I never denied that such things had been around, my argument was merely that they hadn't been common before recent history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Loser's causes are causes too. Just because they lose doesn't negate the cause. The reason is he fought all those battles and lost all those people and Nagato didn't change until Yahiko. Now in the current battle people are fighitng and aren't swticfhing like Nagato did because their triggers weren't pulled and you're crying foul.
    But it does negate the fact that said philosophies matter. Nagato didn't change because only Yahiko mattered, thus the reason he was the trigger. And the point is that said triggers have been pulled. That was the whole point behind Edo Tensei.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Nothing, nothing, and nothing. I ask you how the war changed Konan and you quote errant statements about supporting and protecting her friends. Was she really such a callous bitch beforehand? i didn't think so.
    You asked for examples showing Konan feeling the same way about life, love, peace, etc, as Nagato, and I gave you examples showing how she was before and expressing those very things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Oh, it's exactly what's going on here. You and others are dissatisifed with the effects of this war. That's a legitimate, debatable topic. However, just because you're dissatisfied with the outcomes doesn't negate the fact that a war is taking place. It may be a great war, or a mediocre war, or a lousy war, but it's still a war.
    Dissatisfied, yes. Merely with the outcome, no. The entire war being unlike what we were suppose to be getting is the main problem, completely unfitting for a claim of war. Heck, wasn't it you who were claiming a war shouldn't be a massive battle royale, yet that's exactly what this has become.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Here we go again. Characterization does not make an event a war. Because the Chuunin exam wasn't a war and it had the biggest character development. followed up by the attack of Zabuza. That wasn't a war either. Just because Kishi doesn't meet your expectation on the effects of war doesn't negate the war storyline. Those are two different things and are not related in the way you hope them to be. There are several series with denouments. Inuyasha, Full Metal Alchemist, Negima, Rurouni Kenshin all had denouments, some were final chapters others went a bit longer, but development occured to characters after the final battle.
    Where exactly did I make that claim? Nowhere. You're the one who claimed there wasn't any involved, and that was not true. Not meeting the expectations he himself put forward does bring it all into question. As I haven't read Negima, I can't comment, but the rest of those didn't involve any character development in the following single chapter, they all had key character development happening before during the final battles themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And that's what fuels the wars.
    But not the sole thing, as the situation with Suna showed us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes it is. He didn't say Sand, did he? He said them, it's a neutral term. If he had said "It's them our intel was correct" then you'd have some weight to your argument. But it's a neutral statement, confirming an enemy is present but not who it was. Konoha won because they had beaten the invaders, why would the Sand retreat because Orochimaru left? They don't follow his orders, they were already beaten.
    Them in response to the previous mentioned statement of Suna. There was a direct correlation. He knew who the enemy was. And Orochimaru was leading them in this. If Konoha had actually beat them, why did they only surrender days later after finding their dead leader? Wouldn't they have been forced to surrender right then and there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Bzzt! He gained control just two chapters ago after realizing what his powers were. Almost a year after the battle, try again.
    No, he was given his "true" powers, which didn't involve any lack of control or such. That doesn't change in any way that before he gained control over his powers at that time, which he was having trouble controlling before then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    The plothole isn't his it's yours, trying to make Izuna younger than he actually is. The Bloody Mist and Ame children aren't, che only one that is may be is when Orchimaru left the Akatsuki but that has no impact on the war.
    I'm not making him any younger then the series indicates. How isn't the Bloody Mist, when Yagura was either not even Mizukage yet or already dead, or the Ame orphans, when their events got completely shorten timewise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And does Mito have precocious puberty which is a medical condition where the sex organs develop prematurely because that is what your poster child had. You find 100 females out of over 6 billion born between 1800 and 2013, most through non-consensual sex (incest, rape, sex trade) and you're claiming this is the norm? The odds for it happening to a female is 1 in 60,000,000. To happen twice is another 1 in 60,000,0000 which is 0.0000000000000003% combined. So on paper it's not zero, but in reality it's impossible. Let's not forget you have no evidence that they did conceive that early. So yeah, Izuna is older than you claim he is. Try again.
    Given we know nothing about Mito, that's moot, especially when no one's assuming she was that young. I didn't say it was the norm, I said it was possible. And we're talking about a time period centuries before the 1800s. Point remains that it's possible, and thus your claim fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I have no problem with Izuna dying in his teens, the question has always been how muich longer did they fight? "And then one day" is dimensionless. Was it 1, 5, 10, 15 years? We don't know how much time expired, that's been your problem. Kakuzu? Seriously? The guy wasn't even a normal human anymore, who's to say that was his natural hair? If it were true, then all old people would have black hair, but alas they do not. People have been trying to elude Father TIme for centuries but you crappy arument is not going to beat Him either. Izuna is too old to be Tobi.
    There's no question. Madara basically gives in the very next battle. Unless you're gonna try and argue that Madara waited years to go after revenge for Izuna, the timeframe is clear. And that's a weak strawman. The issue here isn't whether all old people can have black hair, merely if it's possible, and as shown, it is. So trying to claim that Izuna couldn't have been Tobi because he had black hair fails because we have two examples in series of exactly that. So less you can prove that Izuna wouldn't have been one of those exceptions, you can't possible say it was impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    But he is 20+ years older, and you do have to prove Danzou having black hair in his 90's because it's the entire foundation for your argument that Izuna can be Tobi. All the people in the 60's have grey hair except Danzou, and everyone older than Danzou has grey/white hair. I'm not trying to turn back the clock here, you are and you haven'tp roven anything. Izuna can't be Tobi because he jsut too damn old a worse plothole than Obito.
    No he's not, and no I don't. It's your claim he was in his 90's, not mines. My claim is he was in his 70s, just like Danzo is. And if we got two exceptions, then it's not "all". I've proven plenty. You choosing to ignore the evidence doesn't change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    So, it's not in the manga. So we really don't know how much time has expired between these two events. You can't prove the plothole you're claiming that has been violated. Next.
    The databook is a legitimate source. Trying to ignore it doesn't make it go away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You don't know how big or heavy the table is nor do you know how strong the person is. No specifics about the table are given so you can't claim whether or not a single person can move it or not. Just because multiple people can move it doesn't 1 person can do it all by themselves. That's the fault in your argument.
    There is no fault. Even a massive stone table can be moved by a single person given the right circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Where does it say that? Tobi feigns weaknees but was it true or not? Who can tell? Just because you have a killer move doesn't mean you have to use it against their enemies. Villians and their authors can behave in any way they choose to regardless of the views of the peanut gallery.
    We see him getting beat up easily once Kamui got countered. And when we're talking about critical battles where you have no reason to lose, that's the problem. The author making a character act in such a way can only lead to one conclusion, at least until a different reason is granted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Huh? Where do we know Yahiko was alive after that? All you have are 3 events. Obito's death, Yahiko's death, and the end of the war. We have no clue how much time pased between ANY of these events so you can't claim plothole if you don't know anything about how all three points relate to one another, and we don't.
    You mean how, and that's because Yahiko didn't die until he and the others were grown. And as repeatedly mentioned, we do know how they relate to one another. Obito died during the war, on Kakashi's 13th birthdate. The war ended before Kaakshi's 15th birthdate, when Minato had already become Hokage and Naruto was born. The Ame orphans were still young, despite their death being shown during the war as adults. Unless they went though a serious growth spurt, it just doesn't fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You still can't distringuish between the two, can you. Just because Kakashi decided to move on doesn't mean he has moved ion. If I decide today to lose 10 pounds but if I don't go to the gym tomorrow and still continue to eat the way I usually do, have I lost 10 pounds? Have I moved on? The answer is no, I haven't. The same is true for Kakashi, He had his revelation with Dad but did he move on? Kishi decided he hadn't and thus Obito and Kakashi fought each other so Kakashi can see how his friend was twisted by evil and what effects this will have on Kakashi's life after the war concludes. That's a reason for making Obito, Tobi.
    As said before, you can't try and use the retcon to justify said retcon. Kakashi decided to move on and everything at that point indicated that he had. If that was what Kishi intended, then there was no reason for him to have Obito basically ignore Kakashi.

  11. #99
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    I dread Naruto chapters right now. Absolutely dread them. It seems like every week I see what it's become and compare it to what it was and every time I feel like the guy in Grosse Point Blank when he returns to his family home only to find it's been turned into a convenience store.


    The obvious thing to do in my situation is to stop reading but for reasons even I don't understand anymore I feel compelled to see the series to the bitter end. Even though I readily acknowledge I should probably just stop reading. It brings me no joy.

    At least not until Bloomer writes her CAPSLOCK.
    had to come here, just to say thank you, no one ever summed all my feelings for naruto
    i know it is spam but i just had to do it

    i honestly don't know why am i reading this "shit" any more, at this point i think even author itself hates it, or simply i am too old for another DBZ
    but i started to read it at beginning and i will end it, by god i will end it peace and love people

  12. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  13. #100
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    And that changes my original claim how?
    Because the French Revolution wasn't, they didn't kill everyone is Paris because they were French.

    Quote Quote:
    And one death didn't, since Nagato's issues against Konoha went all the way back to the death of his parents. It does take more then a single death, thus the reason a cycle wasn't started when Konoha killed that Kuumo ninja. Yahiko's death made Nagato turn away from the original path of peace, it was Obito who fueled the conquering of the world. And since Obito would still have been around, the only thing that likely would have been different would have been Jiraiya.
    Sure the parents, and the little dog mascot were primers, but Yahiko's death was the trigger. If Yahiko didn't die, we wouldn't be here. Nagato wasn't hellbent on destruction and terror. he wanted to protect people he cared about. So one person is the trigger, because if it isn't then no death in this war will give you what you're looking for.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes, and you haven't shown differently. How exactly are you gonna claim I'm gonna do something before I have even done anything? And how did I err? I never denied that such things had been around, my argument was merely that they hadn't been common before recent history.
    I've given you Cartheiginian, Roman, Greek, and Chinese. We haven't even done medieval or Colonial yet. That's plenty. You've provided nothing. You can also claim the world is flat. That doesn't make it true.

    Quote Quote:
    But it does negate the fact that said philosophies matter. Nagato didn't change because only Yahiko mattered, thus the reason he was the trigger. And the point is that said triggers have been pulled. That was the whole point behind Edo Tensei.
    He did a 180 because of Yahiko's death and he stated that. In the previous paragraph you're saying more than 1 person is needed, now you're saying it only takes one. Make up your mind.

    Quote Quote:
    You asked for examples showing Konan feeling the same way about life, love, peace, etc, as Nagato, and I gave you examples showing how she was before and expressing those very things.
    No, I asked you specifically how the war changed Konan, not how she wants to help her friends achieve their goals.

    Quote Quote:
    Dissatisfied, yes. Merely with the outcome, no. The entire war being unlike what we were suppose to be getting is the main problem, completely unfitting for a claim of war. Heck, wasn't it you who were claiming a war shouldn't be a massive battle royale, yet that's exactly what this has become.
    "Supposed to be getting", that's the whole issue right there. War is an armed conflict. You got an armed conflict. Mission accomplished. Except battle royales, don't have maritine invasions or forward deployments, flanking movements, covert ops, ambushes, and reinforcement deployments. You have 2 people dancing around each other. So right now, this chapter, we have a battle royale, but the first 36-48 hours we didn't. We had something bigger than that.

    Quote Quote:
    Where exactly did I make that claim? Nowhere. You're the one who claimed there wasn't any involved, and that was not true. Not meeting the expectations he himself put forward does bring it all into question. As I haven't read Negima, I can't comment, but the rest of those didn't involve any character development in the following single chapter, they all had key character development happening before during the final battles themselves.
    Dude, you do it every frigging post! These aren't Kishi's expectations, these are your misguided expectations. Kishi unveiled one person's experience with war and you think that is the only thing to focus about war, forgetting everyting else out there.

    Quote Quote:
    But not the sole thing, as the situation with Suna showed us.
    There might be, but hatred is the source for all.

    Quote Quote:
    Them in response to the previous mentioned statement of Suna. There was a direct correlation. He knew who the enemy was. And Orochimaru was leading them in this. If Konoha had actually beat them, why did they only surrender days later after finding their dead leader? Wouldn't they have been forced to surrender right then and there?
    Yes, it's said after. not before. That's the problem. It's acknowledgement that the attack is iminent but it doesn't prove that the Leaf knew the Sand's involovement beforehand. That's the fault with the argument. If it was only Sound ninja, then the argument would have more weight. Not neccesarily. Just because the Sand lost doesn't mean the nation of the Sand "officially" surrended. We don't know when the treaty went into affect, before or after the kazekage's death. It remains an unkown.

    Quote Quote:
    No, he was given his "true" powers, which didn't involve any lack of control or such. That doesn't change in any way that before he gained control over his powers at that time, which he was having trouble controlling before then.
    He wasn't given anything. He just finally realized what they were. Just because he fought in Hueco Mundo doesn't prove he couldn't learn the Final getsuga Tensho beforehand. There is absolutely no evidence to support that.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm not making him any younger then the series indicates. How isn't the Bloody Mist, when Yagura was either not even Mizukage yet or already dead, or the Ame orphans, when their events got completely shorten timewise.
    Yes, you are. You're trying to box in Izuna being in his 70's as he became Tobi when in fact he's most likely way older. There is plently of time from's Rin's death to Zabuza to allow all sequences to occur. Likewise we have no idea when Yahiko dies so you can't claim that as a plothole either for when Nagato and Tobi meet.

    Quote Quote:
    Given we know nothing about Mito, that's moot, especially when no one's assuming she was that young. I didn't say it was the norm, I said it was possible. And we're talking about a time period centuries before the 1800s. Point remains that it's possible, and thus your claim fails.
    We know Mito wasn't hanging around Hashirama in his teens like a little puppy. Hashirama didn't say "Sorry Madara, I'd like to throw rocks with you but my wife will nag me if I don't go back right now". All courtships in this series happen in their late teens or twenties, not when they are 9! You don't see Sarutobi's wife hanging all over him in those pictures when he was 8. Do Madara's and Hashirama's fathers look 19 to you? They look like mature adults to me. Just because they were fighting nomadic tribes before the founding of the village translate to women having kids before the age of 10! That's pure speculation on your part. Just because you have a 0.0000000000000003% chance doesn't mean it has equal weight as the other 99.9999999999999997%. So it doesn't happen the way you want it to, so Izuna won't be in the 70's to plug another plothole that your alternative scenario has.

    Quote Quote:
    There's no question. Madara basically gives in the very next battle. Unless you're gonna try and argue that Madara waited years to go after revenge for Izuna, the timeframe is clear. And that's a weak strawman. The issue here isn't whether all old people can have black hair, merely if it's possible, and as shown, it is. So trying to claim that Izuna couldn't have been Tobi because he had black hair fails because we have two examples in series of exactly that. So less you can prove that Izuna wouldn't have been one of those exceptions, you can't possible say it was impossible.
    No he doesn't. Izuna is injured as a preteen. Then dies at some later date while Madara is a teenager. They continue to fight until Madara is an adult. Years have passed, it's not the next battle. We have no clue on how much time has actually passed. Actually you're the one with the straw man. Everyone in this world who is old has greay/white hair. Danzo has black hair but since he's infused with Hashirmar DNA, you can't claim he's normal or that he we STILL have black hair in his 90's twenty years later! If Danzo was 90, you could, but he's 20 years younger than that. You haven't shown that yet, so Danzo is a failed example. Kakuzu is Kishi' version or Frankenstein. he has no flesh, no bones, 5 hearts, and his skin is sown together. Is his hair even natural or is it a wig? Now if Izuna was built like Kakuzu you might have had an argument. but you don't. I on the other hand have reality on my side. I realize people age when they get older and lose the color to their hair. All the old people who aren't modified have GREY or WHITE hair. Period. There aren't any exceptions and Izuna is older than the people with the grey or white hair. So he's going to have grey or white hair. Tobi has black hair, so Izuna can't be Tobi. So once again your alternate fails.


    Quote Quote:
    No he's not, and no I don't. It's your claim he was in his 90's, not mines. My claim is he was in his 70s, just like Danzo is. And if we got two exceptions, then it's not "all". I've proven plenty. You choosing to ignore the evidence doesn't change that.
    Yes he is because the others are very likely in their 30's when the village was founded. And Danzo is in his 70's. Any evidence that he's older than Sautobi? You've proven nothing. You have unfounded speculation saying "well, old guys can fight too" so Tobi can be Izuna. Then when asked to support the claim you've provded nothing. Nothing from the manga, because there are jsut too many gaps to make a case for Tobi being someone else than Obito. There really were no other candidates. No matter how hard you try there are too many gaping plotholes for it to be anyone else?

    Quote Quote:
    The databook is a legitimate source. Trying to ignore it doesn't make it go away.
    It's a source of notes, but not a substitute for the manga. You can't prove the timelime by the manga so you have to revert to the notes found in secondary sources. That's the problem with most of your arguments. You're not using the manga to prove your case, because in most instances you can't. So you have to look elsewhere to prop up your arguments. Plotholes are caused by the manga not by info from databooks. If it's not in the manga then there is no plothole.

    Quote Quote:
    There is no fault. Even a massive stone table can be moved by a single person given the right circumstances.
    There you go with the assumptions again. Are the "right circumstances" even present? Once again, you don't know. You're assuming they are but there is no evidence to support it.

    Quote Quote:
    We see him getting beat up easily once Kamui got countered. And when we're talking about critical battles where you have no reason to lose, that's the problem. The author making a character act in such a way can only lead to one conclusion, at least until a different reason is granted.
    So bad guys can't have an off day? They always have to be invincible until the final battle? Bad guys can't make mistakes until it's their time to amke a mistake? You're assuming they have to act and perfrom a certtain way until the time comes when they don't. It doesn't work that way. They behave the way the author wants them to, and opinions to the contrary are meaningless.

    Quote Quote:
    You mean how, and that's because Yahiko didn't die until he and the others were grown. And as repeatedly mentioned, we do know how they relate to one another. Obito died during the war, on Kakashi's 13th birthdate. The war ended before Kaakshi's 15th birthdate, when Minato had already become Hokage and Naruto was born. The Ame orphans were still young, despite their death being shown during the war as adults. Unless they went though a serious growth spurt, it just doesn't fit.
    There's no problem with Obtio's death, but where in the manga does it say that the war ended by Kakashi's 15th birthday? It doesn't, you're using the databook and you're envisioning plotholes becuase you're using 2 sources of material instead of just one. You should be using only 1 and when you do, you can't claim a plothole because there is no evidence for it, just conjecture.

    Quote Quote:
    As said before, you can't try and use the retcon to justify said retcon. Kakashi decided to move on and everything at that point indicated that he had. If that was what Kishi intended, then there was no reason for him to have Obito basically ignore Kakashi.
    Who's saying it's a retcon. You have no proof that Kakashi had moved on from tje conversation from his dad. It's just your opinion that he did. Kishi didn't believe so and wrote the material regadfing the battle between Obito and Kakashi, demonstrating that he hadn't. You can't have retcon with just an opinion, you need evdivence, which you once again fail to provide.

    EDIT: While you'll probably reply within 48 hours Rikudo, I'm taking a break so we can resume in October. It's been fun.

  14. #101
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Because the French Revolution wasn't, they didn't kill everyone is Paris because they were French.
    No, they simply killed everyone who was seen as counter-revolutionary, a specific group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Sure the parents, and the little dog mascot were primers, but Yahiko's death was the trigger. If Yahiko didn't die, we wouldn't be here. Nagato wasn't hellbent on destruction and terror. he wanted to protect people he cared about. So one person is the trigger, because if it isn't then no death in this war will give you what you're looking for.
    His parents were the reason he hated Konoha, as his speech to the captured Naruto showed. And again, it takes more then one. If a single death was all that it took, then Naruto choosing to not get revenge for Jiraiya's death wouldn't have been the end of that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I've given you Cartheiginian, Roman, Greek, and Chinese. We haven't even done medieval or Colonial yet. That's plenty. You've provided nothing. You can also claim the world is flat. That doesn't make it true.
    You haven't given anything. All you done is mention that they have used tactics, which I never disagreed with. But you yet to show that they used tactics more then occasionally. I mean for example, if all the Chinese were using tactics, then how could Sun Tzu become so famous for writing the Art of War if it was nothing unique? Or why would the battle of Thermopylae be seen as a good example of the advantages of training and usage of terrain if everyone was doing the same. There's a specific reason why such things became famous, because they were unique during their time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    He did a 180 because of Yahiko's death and he stated that. In the previous paragraph you're saying more than 1 person is needed, now you're saying it only takes one. Make up your mind.
    An error there. The word didn't shouldn't be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No, I asked you specifically how the war changed Konan, not how she wants to help her friends achieve their goals.
    You specifically ask me to show you her feeling the same beliefs as Nagato and Yahiko. We can see there's a clear difference between how Konan was back then and she was after.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    "Supposed to be getting", that's the whole issue right there. War is an armed conflict. You got an armed conflict. Mission accomplished. Except battle royales, don't have maritine invasions or forward deployments, flanking movements, covert ops, ambushes, and reinforcement deployments. You have 2 people dancing around each other. So right now, this chapter, we have a battle royale, but the first 36-48 hours we didn't. We had something bigger than that.
    War is more then armed conflict, especially in this series that's filled with armed conflicts. And the first day did descend into a battle royale. FMA and One Piece both had tactics involved in their wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Dude, you do it every frigging post! These aren't Kishi's expectations, these are your misguided expectations. Kishi unveiled one person's experience with war and you think that is the only thing to focus about war, forgetting everyting else out there.
    So I just imagined all the previous talking talks and explanations about how war was so terrible and such, and all the examples of people being changed by it? And exactly what else is suppose to be the focus when Naruto's whole mission has become bringing peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    There might be, but hatred is the source for all.
    Not at all. The Suna/Oto invasion wasn't done out of hatred, and the whole Senju/Uchiha conflict turnt out to be based on a difference of love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes, it's said after. not before. That's the problem. It's acknowledgement that the attack is iminent but it doesn't prove that the Leaf knew the Sand's involovement beforehand. That's the fault with the argument. If it was only Sound ninja, then the argument would have more weight. Not neccesarily. Just because the Sand lost doesn't mean the nation of the Sand "officially" surrended. We don't know when the treaty went into affect, before or after the kazekage's death. It remains an unkown.
    There is no problem. To think that they finally came would require an expectation of them coming in the first place. Suna was the only invaders mentioned. And we were directly told that Suna didn't surrender til after they found their dead Kazekage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    He wasn't given anything. He just finally realized what they were. Just because he fought in Hueco Mundo doesn't prove he couldn't learn the Final getsuga Tensho beforehand. There is absolutely no evidence to support that.
    He was given his true powers by the Old Man. Did you miss the whole sword of light being passed to him? The entire test for the final Getsuga Tensho required him to be able to fight his other half, something he was incapable of before Hueco Mundo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes, you are. You're trying to box in Izuna being in his 70's as he became Tobi when in fact he's most likely way older. There is plently of time from's Rin's death to Zabuza to allow all sequences to occur. Likewise we have no idea when Yahiko dies so you can't claim that as a plothole either for when Nagato and Tobi meet.
    No, I'm "boxing" him in because it fits with everything we've been given. Unless you're saying that Kushina didn't know what the heck she was talking about, the death of a Jinchuuriki removes the Bijuu for at least a couple of years. So how could Kiri get back the Sanbi and create Yagura to rule horribly just two years before Zabuza's massacre? And as mentioned, we know Yahiko had died during the Third World War, we were told this by Nagato.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    We know Mito wasn't hanging around Hashirama in his teens like a little puppy. Hashirama didn't say "Sorry Madara, I'd like to throw rocks with you but my wife will nag me if I don't go back right now". All courtships in this series happen in their late teens or twenties, not when they are 9! You don't see Sarutobi's wife hanging all over him in those pictures when he was 8. Do Madara's and Hashirama's fathers look 19 to you? They look like mature adults to me. Just because they were fighting nomadic tribes before the founding of the village translate to women having kids before the age of 10! That's pure speculation on your part. Just because you have a 0.0000000000000003% chance doesn't mean it has equal weight as the other 99.9999999999999997%. So it doesn't happen the way you want it to, so Izuna won't be in the 70's to plug another plothole that your alternative scenario has.
    What? In no way can you say that Mito wasn't already around. That reasoning is terrible. That would be like claiming that she wasn't around before the village was founded because there's no mention of her. I guess Sarutobi and his team wasn't around either, since there was no mention of them in Hashirama's flashback. And exactly what are their fathers suppose to disprove? Them being older really doesn't change anything, seeing as they have multiple children. Since you have no way to prove that my assumption is not the case, it's still just as valid til proven otherwise. And seeing as the Izuna possibility still remains regardless, that's moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No he doesn't. Izuna is injured as a preteen. Then dies at some later date while Madara is a teenager. They continue to fight until Madara is an adult. Years have passed, it's not the next battle. We have no clue on how much time has actually passed. Actually you're the one with the straw man. Everyone in this world who is old has greay/white hair. Danzo has black hair but since he's infused with Hashirmar DNA, you can't claim he's normal or that he we STILL have black hair in his 90's twenty years later! If Danzo was 90, you could, but he's 20 years younger than that. You haven't shown that yet, so Danzo is a failed example. Kakuzu is Kishi' version or Frankenstein. he has no flesh, no bones, 5 hearts, and his skin is sown together. Is his hair even natural or is it a wig? Now if Izuna was built like Kakuzu you might have had an argument. but you don't. I on the other hand have reality on my side. I realize people age when they get older and lose the color to their hair. All the old people who aren't modified have GREY or WHITE hair. Period. There aren't any exceptions and Izuna is older than the people with the grey or white hair. So he's going to have grey or white hair. Tobi has black hair, so Izuna can't be Tobi. So once again your alternate fails.
    What are you talking about? Madara is the same age when Izuna dies as when the village is founded. He doesn't look any differently. And there was no continuing of the fighting. Madara attempted to get revenge for Izuna, mentioning how he had died, and lost that fight. That was the final fight before he and Hashirama made peace and founded the village.

    Your argument is just silly. You're claiming that Danzo and Kakuzu can't be used because their bodies are unique, yet ignore the fact that the scenario for Izuna to be alive and replace Madara and Obito would also have him possessing a unique body like theirs. Also, Kakuzu's hair is clearly natural, otherwise he wouldn't have had it when he got revived as an Edo Tensei. Nothing about my alternative fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes he is because the others are very likely in their 30's when the village was founded. And Danzo is in his 70's. Any evidence that he's older than Sautobi? You've proven nothing. You have unfounded speculation saying "well, old guys can fight too" so Tobi can be Izuna. Then when asked to support the claim you've provded nothing. Nothing from the manga, because there are jsut too many gaps to make a case for Tobi being someone else than Obito. There really were no other candidates. No matter how hard you try there are too many gaping plotholes for it to be anyone else?
    There's nothing to support that belief. Um, I said that Danzo was in his 70's...

    And no, I brought up them being able to fight to counter your claim that him being old would have meant he couldn't do anything. And you got that backwards. There's more gaps in Obito being Tobi then not. Izuna would have explained why he was trying to revive Madara back in the first place (since Obito had his own ideas about the plan), why he took such an interest in Sasuke (both being the loyal younger brothers), why he reacted to Madara's history as he did (Obito had no reason to react to the talk about Izuna willingly giving his eyes to Madara), and why geniuses like Minato and Itachi could believe he was Madara (there would obviously be a difference between an adult and a teenager). Him being Obito opens up a whole bunch of questions, such as why would he attack Konoha but take no action against Kakashi, how the heck could he fight solo with Minato in such a short time, how the heck did he learn about the flaw in Kushina's seal, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    It's a source of notes, but not a substitute for the manga. You can't prove the timelime by the manga so you have to revert to the notes found in secondary sources. That's the problem with most of your arguments. You're not using the manga to prove your case, because in most instances you can't. So you have to look elsewhere to prop up your arguments. Plotholes are caused by the manga not by info from databooks. If it's not in the manga then there is no plothole.
    It's not a "source of notes". It's suppose to be a companion to the manga. That's what all databooks are. And the timeline is supported by the manga. Also, I have used the manga to show these plotholes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    There you go with the assumptions again. Are the "right circumstances" even present? Once again, you don't know. You're assuming they are but there is no evidence to support it.
    I do actually know a single person can move a massive stone block alone. It's not an assumption, at least no more then your belief that it can't be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    So bad guys can't have an off day? They always have to be invincible until the final battle? Bad guys can't make mistakes until it's their time to amke a mistake? You're assuming they have to act and perfrom a certtain way until the time comes when they don't. It doesn't work that way. They behave the way the author wants them to, and opinions to the contrary are meaningless.
    Um, yeah. If a final villain isn't shown as all-powerful, it takes away from the impressiveness of them getting defeated by the hero. I'm pretty sure it has always worked that way. Everything may not go their way, but they always get close to succeeding before the hero defeats them. I mean, how terrifying would Buu have been if he could barely fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    There's no problem with Obtio's death, but where in the manga does it say that the war ended by Kakashi's 15th birthday? It doesn't, you're using the databook and you're envisioning plotholes becuase you're using 2 sources of material instead of just one. You should be using only 1 and when you do, you can't claim a plothole because there is no evidence for it, just conjecture.
    Yes there is. As said before, they're from the same source. And you realize that you're basically saying that ignorance is the answer to not having plotholes, with is just silly to argue. And even ignoring the databook, there will still be the problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Who's saying it's a retcon. You have no proof that Kakashi had moved on from tje conversation from his dad. It's just your opinion that he did. Kishi didn't believe so and wrote the material regadfing the battle between Obito and Kakashi, demonstrating that he hadn't. You can't have retcon with just an opinion, you need evdivence, which you once again fail to provide.
    The conversation itself is proof. And the fact that Obito spent all the previous arcs ignoring Kakashi to suddenly being in a direct conflict with him shows that it wasn't thought of before. And the battle between then sense has shown Kakashi getting more attach, not less. So the point remains.

  15. #102
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Yes, I'm back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    No, they simply killed everyone who was seen as counter-revolutionary, a specific group.
    You said it yourself, they killed selected individuals, they didn't kill everyone associated with the monarchy. If htey kiled the maids. butlers, gardeners, and stableboys you could claim a genocide, but they didn't.

    Quote Quote:
    His parents were the reason he hated Konoha, as his speech to the captured Naruto showed. And again, it takes more then one. If a single death was all that it took, then Naruto choosing to not get revenge for Jiraiya's death wouldn't have been the end of that situation.
    I wouldn't say he loathed Konoha specifically, but it did prime him to go bonkers if Yahiko or Konan died. And Yahiko did. If Yahiko died choking on a rice ball would he have gone postal? No. The reason why Nagato went crazy was because he failed to protect his friend.

    Quote Quote:
    You haven't given anything. All you done is mention that they have used tactics, which I never disagreed with. But you yet to show that they used tactics more then occasionally. I mean for example, if all the Chinese were using tactics, then how could Sun Tzu become so famous for writing the Art of War if it was nothing unique? Or why would the battle of Thermopylae be seen as a good example of the advantages of training and usage of terrain if everyone was doing the same. There's a specific reason why such things became famous, because they were unique during their time.
    Tsung Zhu wrote it but he clearly didn't invent all of it. It doesn't change the fact that the tactics have been around for millenia. Whether it's a flanking movement from ancient times or a left/right wheel movement in colonial times, these tactics weren't invented recently.


    Quote Quote:
    You specifically ask me to show you her feeling the same beliefs as Nagato and Yahiko. We can see there's a clear difference between how Konan was back then and she was after.
    No, I asked you how the war impacted Konan. And you provided nothing, because there is nothing. Does it take a war to "help your friends". Konan didn't seem to be a callous bitch to me.

    Quote Quote:
    War is more then armed conflict, especially in this series that's filled with armed conflicts. And the first day did descend into a battle royale. FMA and One Piece both had tactics involved in their wars.
    You're right, it's scale. You had 5 divisions deployed over different terrains for land and sea encounters. You had forward deployments overrun. You had divisions reinforcing other divisons. You had nightime special-ops raids. Where was this in either FMA or One Piece? One Piece was nothing but a battle royale. FMA was "let's sneak into the HQ while a diversion goes on elsewhere".

    Quote Quote:
    So I just imagined all the previous talking talks and explanations about how war was so terrible and such, and all the examples of people being changed by it? And exactly what else is suppose to be the focus when Naruto's whole mission has become bringing peace?
    No, you just took Nagato's opinion on war and ran too far with it. He's one person's account on what war was. This war could have a completely different outcome and experience.

    Quote Quote:
    Not at all. The Suna/Oto invasion wasn't done out of hatred, and the whole Senju/Uchiha conflict turnt out to be based on a difference of love.
    You don't know what the Suno motives were. The Senju/Uchiha wasn't based on a condition. Their condition prevented them from stopping, it wasn't the cause.

    Quote Quote:
    There is no problem. To think that they finally came would require an expectation of them coming in the first place. Suna was the only invaders mentioned. And we were directly told that Suna didn't surrender til after they found their dead Kazekage.
    But that stil doesn't prove they knew who, what, where, or when. Claiming you expected somoene to show doesn't prove woh it was a priori.

    Quote Quote:
    He was given his true powers by the Old Man. Did you miss the whole sword of light being passed to him? The entire test for the final Getsuga Tensho required him to be able to fight his other half, something he was incapable of before Hueco Mundo.
    Yes, and he was trained in the connecting workd, not Hueco Mundo. Hueco Mundo was not a prerequisiste for him gettimg his powers. A total waste of trees. And your idea is later contradicted by the fact the power manifested itself when Ichigo needed it, not because he could control of it.

    Quote Quote:
    No, I'm "boxing" him in because it fits with everything we've been given. Unless you're saying that Kushina didn't know what the heck she was talking about, the death of a Jinchuuriki removes the Bijuu for at least a couple of years. So how could Kiri get back the Sanbi and create Yagura to rule horribly just two years before Zabuza's massacre? And as mentioned, we know Yahiko had died during the Third World War, we were told this by Nagato.
    And yet Kurama was sealed into Naruto within minutes of being freed with no preparations. Care to explain that? There is no 2-year requirement. All events can easily happen within the time period. No plothole.

    Quote Quote:
    What? In no way can you say that Mito wasn't already around. That reasoning is terrible. That would be like claiming that she wasn't around before the village was founded because there's no mention of her. I guess Sarutobi and his team wasn't around either, since there was no mention of them in Hashirama's flashback. And exactly what are their fathers suppose to disprove? Them being older really doesn't change anything, seeing as they have multiple children. Since you have no way to prove that my assumption is not the case, it's still just as valid til proven otherwise. And seeing as the Izuna possibility still remains regardless, that's moot.
    Hey, you're the one who believes Mito's popping out kids at 10 so Izuna could be 70 in the present, not me. Why would you have Sarutobi around. he wasn't even born yet when Madara and Hashirama first met. The father's ages are important. You make the claim that the nomadic times were equivalent to the fuedal era in Japan. But in Kishi's world people have normal courtships regardless of the era. Hashirama's father isn't 19 because he had Hashirama when he was 10, nor did Hashirama impregnate Mito at 10 so you can have your Izuna being 70 today. The only reason it "happened" is because you need it to happen to prop up your house of cards. But it can't because Izuna is too old to be doing this and have black hair. Izuna can't be Tobi.

    Quote Quote:
    What are you talking about? Madara is the same age when Izuna dies as when the village is founded. He doesn't look any differently. And there was no continuing of the fighting. Madara attempted to get revenge for Izuna, mentioning how he had died, and lost that fight. That was the final fight before he and Hashirama made peace and founded the village.
    Incorrect, Izuna died from a mortal wound from tobriama when Madara was in his teens and years passed before the village was founded . Madara doesn't look the same when the viallge was founded, serveral years have passed.

    Quote Quote:
    Your argument is just silly. You're claiming that Danzo and Kakuzu can't be used because their bodies are unique, yet ignore the fact that the scenario for Izuna to be alive and replace Madara and Obito would also have him possessing a unique body like theirs. Also, Kakuzu's hair is clearly natural, otherwise he wouldn't have had it when he got revived as an Edo Tensei. Nothing about my alternative fails.
    No, silly is claiming that someone who has no flesh, no bones, 5 hearts, nothing but grey phalangi inside his body (who no longer qualifies as a human being)-yet since he has black hair it's possible for normal people to have have black hair in their 90's. The problem with this quagmire is that Izuna is just a normal Uchiha. Not modified by Hashirama DNA, nor infused with abnormal body parts. The only thing that Izuna had was that he was blind. Now I haven't heard that implanting Uchiha eyes stops the aging process so Izuna will age just like every other human, not like Kakuzu or Danzou who are not. Tobi had a modified body, Izuna just lost his eyes and since he died young there is no reason to believe Izuna was Tobi, aside from the fact you don't like Oibto.

    Quote Quote:
    And no, I brought up them being able to fight to counter your claim that him being old would have meant he couldn't do anything. And you got that backwards. There's more gaps in Obito being Tobi then not. Izuna would have explained why he was trying to revive Madara back in the first place (since Obito had his own ideas about the plan), why he took such an interest in Sasuke (both being the loyal younger brothers), why he reacted to Madara's history as he did (Obito had no reason to react to the talk about Izuna willingly giving his eyes to Madara), and why geniuses like Minato and Itachi could believe he was Madara (there would obviously be a difference between an adult and a teenager). Him being Obito opens up a whole bunch of questions, such as why would he attack Konoha but take no action against Kakashi, how the heck could he fight solo with Minato in such a short time, how the heck did he learn about the flaw in Kushina's seal, etc.
    Guys in their 60's sure, not guy in their 90's. Especially guys in their 90's with black hair. Su re it's a better pairing for a brother to revive one's older brother, but if Izuna was alive why would Madara still be fighting the village? It makes no sense. Izuna's interest in Sasuke is no different than Obito's in the fact that he was using Sasuke as a tool. Izuna might make you feel better over Obito, but it plagued with impossible plotholes that while you wish to ognore them, no other reader could.

    Quote Quote:
    It's not a "source of notes". It's suppose to be a companion to the manga. That's what all databooks are. And the timeline is supported by the manga. Also, I have used the manga to show these plotholes.
    But it's not the manga, it's a databook. It's Kishi's notes, it was things not incorporated into the storyline. they've been omitted. It gives texture to the manga but is not a replacement for it. This is where you err.

    Quote Quote:
    I do actually know a single person can move a massive stone block alone. It's not an assumption, at least no more then your belief that it can't be done.
    Good for you and if his name is Obito then you have an argument. The point isn't that one person can move a table, it's that you don't know if one person can move one specific table. They might, they might not but not even your precious databooks have the answer.

    Quote Quote:
    Um, yeah. If a final villain isn't shown as all-powerful, it takes away from the impressiveness of them getting defeated by the hero. I'm pretty sure it has always worked that way. Everything may not go their way, but they always get close to succeeding before the hero defeats them. I mean, how terrifying would Buu have been if he could barely fight?
    Except he's wasn't the final villian. You can portray villians as normal people too. They don't have to be powerful, flawless entities until they are destroyed. The faulty villians are usually the more interesting ones. Sometimes, it's ok to break away from standard plot devices.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes there is. As said before, they're from the same source. And you realize that you're basically saying that ignorance is the answer to not having plotholes, with is just silly to argue. And even ignoring the databook, there will still be the problems.
    Thanks for proving it's not there. I don't need to read the databook to read Naruto. Auxilliaries don't trump the main work. If it's not in the story itself, then it's not cannon. That fallacy is yours. Plain and simple.

    Quote Quote:
    The conversation itself is proof. And the fact that Obito spent all the previous arcs ignoring Kakashi to suddenly being in a direct conflict with him shows that it wasn't thought of before. And the battle between then sense has shown Kakashi getting more attach, not less. So the point remains.
    The conversation showed Kakashi has comes to a crossroads. It doesn't tell us which path Kakashi took. You assumed he went down one path however, you have to backpeddle since Kishi has shown Kakashi went down the other.

  16. #103
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity weixiaobao's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Stop arguing about genocide, don't argue about irrelevant stuffs like that (by that I meant the goal is to win an argument). Why not make the goal as trying to inform the other person.

    Genocide: The systematic killing of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, etc.

    So the key here is systematic. Got it people.

    It seems, Brill may have an opinion that is opposite of me. But I can't read all of that jumble mumble. Can you summarize you view point in a post (for my selfish reason). But I won't get in an argument for the sake of argument (or the sake of winning an argument even if one's stance is absurd, that's what lawyers do, and I don't like them).

    Quote Quote:
    You haven't given anything. All you done is mention that they have used tactics, which I never disagreed with. But you yet to show that they used tactics more then occasionally. I mean for example, if all the Chinese were using tactics, then how could Sun Tzu become so famous for writing the Art of War if it was nothing unique? Or why would the battle of Thermopylae be seen as a good example of the advantages of training and usage of terrain if everyone was doing the same. There's a specific reason why such things became famous, because they were unique during their time.
    There are tactics before Sun Tzu's time and after Sun Tzu's time. Battle of Thermopylae is ridiculously funny, if I was the leader of the Persians, the greeks wouldn't stand a chance.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Military_Classics

    *don't reply to this point*

    Brill- please do summarize your points, because I found the argument between you and RKing to be incredibly irrelevant. I meant, really, it doesn't matter what route Kishimoto choose to write his war/armed conflict/ or whatever the fuck. If it isn't entertaining, mind blowing, etc, then it is just worthless.

    ---------- Post added at 09:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 PM ----------

    Ahh, found the pot of golds....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    The war has met the basic requirements for a war. Troop deployments, flanking movemernts, reinforcements, commando/special forces attacks, recon, beach side invasions. Long range and short range combat with thousands of people. Technically, it's a war. Stylistically it may not be what you want, but all the parts are there.
    Not a great reply to RKing, I gonna ask you this question then. To you, is this a believable war? Is this a war (as shown) worth emotional investment? Is this war has cohesion and consistency? How would you rate this war?

    Quote Quote:
    There is a logical reason for the war. One of the themes Kishi has laid out is that Naruto is going to become the greatest ninja of all time, surpass even the kages. For that he needs a stage to accomplish this. Team 7 and maybe Gai's team could take out the last remaining Akatsuki. Naruto has already been acknowledged by his own village but he has not been acknowledged by the others. The only way for that to happen is if all the villages are involved in the same conflict and Naruto shines in their presence. The only venue that allows that to happen is a war.
    You didn't answer RKing's question. Within the world of Naruto, is there a reason for this war? Even if I consider your strawmanning statement and consider the author's intent instead of the logic of the manga. Is this war the best possible way to achieve such a goal?

    Quote Quote:
    Most wars are random fights between people. It's loosely controlled chaos, instead a better comparison is forces vs. forces and Kishi did do this in this series.. As stated above, several actions that occur during war were aptly shown in the chapters. It's intensity may not be to your liking but it has all the parts of a war. If you're expecting battles on par with Berserk or Claymore, that's not gonna happen. This is shounen not seinen. Many people want the blood/body part count to rise in this series, elevating Naruto to a misconceived level of maturity that it really isn't.
    So is your view here is that, Kishimoto is talentless enough to not able to rise about the restriction of the shonen limit? He may make a mistake here, but your view is that he never had such a potential in the first place? Well, let's see, people pay money to read or watch about choreographic and well written wars and not really to witness it in real life. Hence, I still don't get you. So maturity aside, you think it is more entertaining to have more people live??? Or if your answer is no, there can still be more deaths but less bloody ya know. What is your point?? Are you just defending Kishimoto because just because.

    Quote Quote:
    There have been many sources of tension in this series, from the appearance of the Edo Tenseo, the attack of the white zetsu on the medical corps, the apparent killing of Hinata, the appearance of the Gedo statue near the coastline, the appearance of Madara, the destruction of the Alliance HQ, and last of all the Jyuubi. Some tensions were fleeting and some lasted several chapters, but there is no set formula on how much tension a war needs to have.

    So if there are readers that can't feel these tensions, is this a failure on Kishimoto's part??

    Quote Quote:
    The threat of death was there. Sai, Omoi, and Lee saw people die right next to them. Do we really need scenes of Lee getting stabbed mutliple times or having Hinata getting gang-raped to demonstrate the severity of war? Granted, the white zetsu didn't appear intimidating on the open battlefield so dying there would be super-lame, but getting killed by a doppleganger of a fellow comrade, that paralyzed the Alliance into complete dysfunction.
    The whole thing about this, I supposed is tension. I don't think we need death to have tension. I don't like going to One Piece, but I will do at this point. The upper yard game, geez, we all know the straw hats would prevail somehow but seeing Enel kicking everyone's asses. At that point in time, I don't see how the strawhats going to get out of those situations. Like when Nami was with Enel, and Enel was proven to be extremely unstable. I supposed, I genuinely fear for her life even though I knew nothing is going to happen that drastically.

    I don't know but I don't feel that way here. Maybe because I don't care enough about the characters. I don't know compare to the retrieving Sasuke's arc. I kinda genuinely care if Neji die then. I don't really care when he die the way he did. I don't even feel sad. lol, if Shikamaru had kick the bucket a few chapters, I could like care less.


    Quote Quote:
    And the alternative is? 80,000 shinobi vs.2 Akatsuki? That's even lamer. A secret force of 100,000 rogue shinobi? That's the biggest retcon ever. Enemy lieutenants are usually feeble and lame. The Espada in Bleach. Just as lame. The humonculai in Full Metal Alchemist during the coup de tat? Just as lame. They may be more stylish than Edo Tensei, but the Edo Tensei have the additional restriction-that they can't be destroyed. So you can have Lee battle an Edo Tensei, but in the end it's just going to get sealed. Shino vs. a Mist 7-swordsman-sealed. Hinata vs. Deidara-sealed. So you can have all these one-on-one battles but they'll all proceed the same way-some uber attack that evenrtually results in a sealing. Kish decided to take the focus away from that and it probably was the better call, but the downside is some uninspiring battles.
    So how would you rank the shonen conflicts base on impact and entertainment? Which are more successful than the others? Don't get me wrong, the beginning of this war is pretty decent. The battle between the revive kages are kinda cool. But the rest are eh...

    Quote Quote:
    Yes, the chapter pacing and pacing of the arc as a whole has been poor. Kishi spread things out too much and he has to spend many chapters in transition so everything can catch up. A case of juggling too many eggs.
    This is the failure of many manga. Bleach is the biggest example. But compare to the current arc of One Piece. I would say that the current One Piece arc is actually more complex to write than Kishimoto's war arc (though it should have been the other way around). Even chapters that fan criticize, when I reread, I feel the pacing is awesome. And those heavily criticized chapters were perfect as transition.

    Quote Quote:
    Why would anyone care if Tobi was Izuna? What relationship does Izuna have with anyone in the current shinobi world? He'd be a withered corpse who couldn't steal candy from a baby. Obito at least has a link to the current system, Kakashi. Sure, Tobi could have dogged Kakashi more, but then there would be no mystery. I think the problem with Obito is that people wanted Tobi to be this uber evil mysterious villian, and he wasn't. Tobi was aloof and cryptic, but never revealing. He had no identity (because people would immediately know it's Obito if he did) and so when the mask broke, people were disappointed. I'm not crazy about Obito, but I'm ok with Obito because he's just a lackey and not the main antagonist. Obito is much needed character development for Kakashi who has been more ignored than Sakura since Part 2 began. Kakashi needs this fight so that he can move on and stop going to that stupid shrine every morning. And if peeople think that Obito's 'retconned" hair causes the war to fail, they need to focus on more meaningful examples.
    If Kishimoto was good, he could make just about anything work whether it is Obito and or Izuna. But it didn't work, if you enjoy the sort of below average chapters (that was meant to be mind blowing because it is the height of a climax of a conflict), then congrats this is a perfect saga for you. I don't mind if he had below average chapters here and there or even arcs and sagas. But this is the ultimate conflict, this is the climax of his series, and yet, not only it didn't live up to its expectation. It fails to even entertain sometimes (even on chapters that supposedly super good because you can see that Kishimoto is trying hard, really really hard).

    ---------- Post added at 09:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------

    Yes, Whitebeard war arc sort of disappoint me, but I thought within Naruto verse, there is more freedom to kill and make it way more bloody than One Piece Verse. I felt there is so much miss opportunity. The fear of death that Orochimaru represented in the Chunnin exam, where the hell is that??

  17. #104
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Man this last chapter was way over my level of cheese acceptance. Kishi is seriously making things up as he goes on. The way people are behaving feels so inconsistent with the first part and the exposition is way over the top. I wish I could like this manga more as I loved it before but I just can't, this week was really dissapointing.
    The war just feels silly, and now that Madara is going to pull out his ace out of the sleeve, I just don't care anymore.
    Meh

  18. #105
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member FirenX's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke View Post
    That was the best! I love fan made battles.

    That was no fan made battle. It's a little Side comedy story from Naruto involving the life and story of Lee.

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