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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Disappointment? that i have with this arc, no doubt in that. actually, it is so disappointing nowadays, that whole time spent behind following this manga feels wasted. anyway, i would like to state few reasons behind my disappointment.
firstly, the buildup for the war. whole ninja world vs Tobi, Kabuto and Zetsu (and more Zetsu) and also zombies. actually, Zetsu clones and Zombies had nothing to say in this regard, so we must as well call it as three vs the whole world. for me, that is a very bad buildup for an epic war arc.
then we have the battles. none of them felt anything special. even when there was fight between zombie kages and ninja alliance, it felt just as cheap. moreover, no single battle managed to satisfy the expectations from readers. what is even more sad is that most of the fights have been completed either off panel or it was rushed. and the on screen battles never reached any convincing ending.
another thing is about the major characters. i will start with kakashi who was about to go on a rampage against Mist swordsman; which we never got to see. then we have sudden power surge from characters of Naruto's group, which of course was sudden and apparently left at that. we have seen sudden surge from likes of Choji, Kiba, Shikamaru, Ino etc. and then they were left forgotten. or characters like Sakura who had sudden increase in her abilities just to fall back to her old self, as in to cheering for sasuke. the inconsistencies of character development and the use of characters has always been a weak point for this manga.
then we have powers of the characters. now tactics, chakra, stamina etc are pointless. all of the characters can fight for days and go on; no problem. when a boost is required, they can just shake hands with Naruto and voila. and Naruto? he can be exhausted after giving all those chakra, just to rest for few minutes and regain the chakra again. that is cheap, disregarding basics of the manga.
and finally few other characters, namely, Tobi, Madara and Kyuubi. all of these characters are ruined. Kyuubi is a pet for Naruto and is friendly with everyone; if it was only with Naruto while still being in character, it would have been better. but no, Kishi had to make Kyuubi something pathetic. then we have Tobi, who actually turned into a maniac only because his crush was killed; that's a pathetic excuse for world domination. since the revelation, Tobi's character is out of the window and in the dirt. and we have Madara who is sitting in the war because he has a date with Hashirama.
But there are some points where i think you have over did it.
First was about build up: Consider this as real, Kages didn't know the exact manpower of Madara. They knew Madara, they Knew he is dangerous and they prepared for the worst (or to finish this once and for all)
Secondly Fights with previous Kages: They weren't as bad as you said, none of them was one shotted (Well Raikga was kinda one shotted) with out giving a decent fight and required some actuall ninja skills to beat them.
Thirdly about Kyubi being Friendly: Well he is a pet of Naruto and then become friend of him, believed in him so no wonder he helped him a lot.
Apart from those points i agree that there were several disappointments, fights that were started but never finished, characters geting extra ordinary boosts in skill sets or in their chakra pools.
Just because Sasuke changed his mind in destroying the village doesn't mean he's a choir boy. Hell, even Sakura knows he's up to something. Naruto does influence Zabuza, Neji, and Gaara, but the system consists of everybody not just 1 or 2 individuals. Kishi shows that Naruto can affect people from their previous ways of thinking. Kishi show Naruto's first attempt at bridging the gap between everyone by giving the Kyuubi's power to all in the alliance. That won't change the system but is an indirect sign of what's to come. Unfortunately, Kishi will probably choke when it comes to the real task. Time will tell.Quote:
Scouting, flanking movements, advance troop deployments, nightime raiding have been around since ancient times. There is nothing modern about it. At least Naruto tries to emulate a wartime environment rather than the typical shounen battle royale.Quote:
Yet that is the issue here. You having a Civic in front of you when you want a Mercedes. A Civic isn't a Mercedes, but it's still a car. Just because you don't like the Civic doesn't prevent it from being a car. Kishi has met all the preconditions you've thrown out there. You don't like them, that's fine. But Kishi accomplished what he set out to do, just because you don't like it doesn't invalidate it.Quote:
Really? And who are these said people? This is the first war we've actually witness unfold. The only people who've been affected are the Ame orphans and they're all dead. So now, we don't know the affects of war, the only thing we have is Nagato's diatribe on the effects of war which happened off-screen to people we don't know. There aren't numerous examples despite your view to the contrary.Quote:
You don't know that, you're speculating. They weren't buddies before their alliance, but now that they in an alliance they are their supposedly free of the cycle of hate? Not at all. Look and the next alliance between the Sand and the Leaf. Even though they've formed an alliance they are still bound by the cycle of hate. once someone dies they get caught up in it. It's a never ending cycle of repetition.Quote:
They knew jack. Hayate was killed before he could relate the crucial intel. The Leaf didn't know where the attack was coming from. They didn't know when because they had scattered their forces all over the place. They didn't know how the battle was going to proceed or that Gaara was the key to it all. They knew some of the why, the part of Orochimaru, but they didn't know about why the Sand was involved. You seem to forget that the Leaf had it forces spread across it's entire border since they didn't know where it was coming from. Kakashi complained at the few numbers of ANBU at the chuunin finals but it couldn't be helped. They were stretched thin. After Konoha secured the citizens they began their counterattack and routed not only Orochimaru's forces but the Sands as well.Quote:
They were useless since Ichigo learned the final Getsuga Tensho (sp?) in the barrier between the Earth and the Soul Society. Nothing Ichigo did in Hueco Mundo had anything to do with the final battle between him and Aizen. Not his battle with Grimjaw or Uqiuoora (sp?). Nothing. Kubo could have cut most of Hueco Mundo and the plot would still go on unabated.Quote:
You forget Danzo's flashback when him, Sarutobi-oh, and the Second Hokage were pursued by Cloud ninja? He was certainly established there into the storyline. Was Izuna, nope. You could say Joe Uchiha gave Madara the MS and it'd have simnilar weight becuase Izuna wasn't even established into the story yet.Quote:
Where does it say it was exactly 60 years ago? All we know is it formed after "over 80 years ago". That's a very vargue timeline and we aren't given a specific date. You're guessing they're in the 20's to support your house of cards. If the village was formed 60 years ago how do you explain Tsunade being born as early as the the next year (ie. she's 59). Since Hashirama dies soon after the village's founding she must be in her upper 50's since he knows her, right? So explain to me how Hashirama is a grandfather at 20? Please, how does one ignore human biology where Mito and Tsuande's mother both get pregnant at the age of 9? Because that is the only way that Tusnade can be born, and Hashirama is in his 20's and the village is formed 60 years ago. One or more of the stipulations is incorrect and Jiraiya tells us Tsunade is in her 50's. So Hashirama can't be in his 20's when the village was founded or the village wasn't founded 60 years ago or both points are invalid. So which is it?Quote:
Oh I'll give you 3-5 years younger. But Danzou is not of Izuna's generation, he's the next generation. You still expect Danzo to have black hair when he's 90. I don't think so. Once again it's physically impossible for Izuna to be Tobi, not when the oldest closest person to Izuna has stark white hair.Quote:
We don't know who Kisame saw while manipulating Yagura. We don't know when Obito controlled Yagura and for how long it went. It just shows him being manipulated but not when. Once again you focus on wars but don't show any paradoxes. You don't show any dates. Why? Because there aren't any. We don't know when Yahiko dies so how can you claim that the timeline has been altereed when Kishi doesn't give us any dates for his death. Obito and Yahiko could easily have met. There's no problem that needs fixingQuote:
Why doesn't he need them? He can't he do it by himself He doesn't have enough chakra to pull a bijuu from a Jinchuuriki all by himself. Most of the other Jinchuuriki were males so Tobi couldn't sit aorund and wait for them to have babies. That's why he needed the others. Obito was a genin. He doesn't have the contacts and resources to form an organization overnight. It would take time to build those connections with the darker elements of society. 15 years is an adequate time to form the Akatsuki, no 50 years for Izuna. How else are you going to have Obito to take up Madara's charge of revenge, put it in a book? The two had to meet to link both timelines.Quote:
Yes it does. That's was Nagato's diatribe to Naruto was all about. As long as people love and want to protect people the cycle of hate persists because they will take revenge for their loved ones. The Mist village wanted to destroy the Leaf village so they take Rin and implant her with the 3-tails. Why? Because they wanted to get at Kakashi? No, they want to destroy the village for strategic advantages and settle old scores. The reason for her death was the cycle of hate.Quote:
Was a date given when it happened? No. You're trying to isolate this event before Naruto's birth but there isn't anything preventing the meeting between Obito and Yahiko from occuring afterwards. The real queston is was Yahilo alive 16 years ago. We know that Yahiko died but we don't know the exact time when he did. They could be having a bad hair day, or even a bad panel day. There is nothing telling us how old they were when they met.Quote:
Sure it does. Kakashi met his dad so his dad could tell him to stop faulting himself for what happened. That doesn't mean he's over the tragedy itself. Just because you've stopped feeling guilty over their deaths doesn't mean Kakashi has moved on. Those are two separate events. He may have stoppped blaming himself but he clearly needs this battle with Obito to move on. Kishi doesn't think so and that's why Obito and Kakashi are fighting, because Kakashi needed this.Quote:
Ibiki and his troops awaiting for the attack is them knowing jack? They knew the attack was coming and was prepared for it as mentioned. And their forces weren't spread across the border. I believe you mean wall, and that really doesn't change the original point. And no, there was no routing. Konoha's counterattack began as soon as the attack began, and Oto and Suna didn't retreat til Orochimaru retreated.
The timeline isn't vague. If it was merely vague, then there wouldn't be as many issues with it as there currently is. I'm guessing they were 20 because not much time appeared to have pass from when they were children dreaming it up to when they finally joined together. And what is exactly wrong with Tsunade being born a year later? Aside from the fact that Hashirama was shown being alive for some time after the founding of the village, her being born after his death doesn't mean much as long as she was conceived before it. Again, I'm not understanding the math you're trying to employ. Hashirama having a child in his early teens, who then has a child in their early teens works just fine. And there's nothing biologically impossible about such a act. You may no be aware of this, but being married and having children in one's early teens was pretty common during the past ages like a feudal era. In fact, it wasn't until in the last century that people began having children later in life and even then there are still places where "people" have preteen wives.
No, it's not. Naruto went to bring Sasuke back to the village. The problem is that Sasuke changed during the process of his ordeal and now the two can't relate like they used to. To change this Naruto needs to understand the other which is problematic on many levels. The same is true for the Shinobi Alliance. They aren't going to change overnight. A pleading story to save Gaara's freind isn't enough to break the cycle of hate. It may unite them against a common foe but the system isn't free yet. That's Naruto's job.Quote:
Once again, more reading. All the tactics today have evolved from studying the history of past battles going back throusands of years-if not outright taken from the annals of history. All the movements listed have been around for hundres-thousands of years.Quote:
He's not negating his own logic. War warped Nagato considering he's had several of them. Was he this warped after 48 hours? No, he was not. Even after losing several comrades he wasn't as jaded as he is now. It tooks several years and wars to get to that point. This whole segment of this debate is how Kishi's didn't meet certain reader's expectations. All of the things you cited in this segment of this debate were met by Kishi. You may not have felt the tension, you may have thought the sacrifice was insufficient, you may have thoiught people weren't frozen in their boots at the sight of the first fallen comrades, but all of your grievances were addressed by Kishi. So the issue isn't Kishi, it's the viewers who have grandiose visions for what a war is outside the medium we are currently reading.Quote:
Yeah, you did and they're still dead. How was Itachi impacted by the war? He was in one but how was he affected by it. Nothing is given. All he wants to do is save his brother from retribution. Sure, Kakashi was in a war but was he affected by the war itself? No, he was impacted by the death of Obito. Was it on the frontlines? No, it was a remote bridge. The same scenario could have played out in an A-ranked mission. How was Kakashi impacted more by Obito's death than Shikamaru's for Asuma's? Because it happened during a "war" instead of an A-ranked mission? Was the Sand/Sound surprise attack a war? it lasted less than 5 hours. If you're calling THAT a war then you're a hypocrite for not calling the current struggle a war. It was a battle but a war is stretching it. The third war was shown? Where? Who was fighting whom. We saw the Kakashi Gaiden arc. One remote scenario amongst an entire world war. That's not seeing a war unfold, we had a snaprshot of 1 event. The only one you have is Mifune who would die to save his comrades in the face of overwhelming odds, and after a significant point of time solidified his resolve to fight Hanzou again. He wasn't changed overnight.Quote:
Sure it was new, but did Orochimaru use and sand ninjas as guinea pigs like he did the Leaf? It's an unknown. Many things are unknown. You're not really free of the cycle of hate if it comes right back after the fall of the next shinobi. That's why they're in their little Catch-22. That's why they can't escape it.Quote:
They were expecting something and they positioned themselves for an assault. I'm not debating that point. They didn't know who and they didn't know when, they didn't know where and they didn't know Gaara was the center of it all. All you cite is a scout seeing an invading force. Well unfortunately, that's after the fact. The trap had already sprung. You had ANBU patrolling outside the city limits where the sand and sound ninjas were hding. They were spread outside the village proper they all weren't inside the village. You saw the forces outside the stadium being routed by Konoha's Will of Fire well before well before Orochimaru left the scene.Quote:
Absolutely. Was Ichigo's full Hollow form essential for the defeat of Aizen? No, it wasn't. Ichigo mastered his Hollow side with the training he did with the other exiled Shinigami in Kakakura town. He did the training before he even went to Hueco Mundo. Then he trains again in the spirit tunnel to learn his final sword attack and THAT attack allows him to defeat Aizen. Everything in Heuco Mundo was a waste or trees. A pretty waste, but a waste nonetheless.Quote:
Because Tobriama actually does something during the timeline. Ressurecting the dead doesn't establish you into the storyline unless you were introduced earlier, that's why I didn't menition the earlier Edo Tensei. Tobriama did somehting years ago and that puts him in the timeline. Izuna is mentioned in a flashback, but he does nothing. You see a panel with a Uchiha with no eyes and the next time you see him, he's dead. Did Izuna do anything? No, he's just a footnote, a placekeeper as to why Madara got the MS. If he actually did something during Tobi's flashback on the founding of the village then you could claim he was established into the storyline, but he wasn't. That's the difference between the two.Quote:
And where is this in the manga? Oh, it isn't. You had to goto a databook because the manga doesn't tell us when the village was founded. It was only formed after over 80 years ago. The amount of taken to found the village from the warring nomadic factions is never given.Quote:
The only problem is that Tsunade is born while Hashirama is alive, he knows her. The problem with preteens having childen isn't the problem, the problem is children having children. The issue is that Tsunade is Hashirama's granddaughter. She's two generations removed. So for every year that passed for Mito and tsunade mom to concieve Hashirma's age goes up by two years. If Hashirama was 20 when the village was founded that means Mito and TM (Tsunade's mom) would have to have kids at age 10, which means both women had to be pregnant at age 9 which is biologically impossible. If Hashirama was 30 then both Mito and TS had childen at 15 and they got pregnant at 14. If Hashirama was 40 then both Mito and TS had childeren at 20. Mtio and TS having a child at 20 is reasonable. 15 is streching it and 9 is outright impossible. The youngest Hashirama could be is 30 when the village is founded and there no evidence to support that. That puts the earliest that Izuna to be is 85 in the present timeline and I just round that to 90 as a compromise because Izuna could easily be 100.Quote:
If they're fighitng as early as 7 Izuna isn't that's much younger than Madara. Danzou and Sarutobi didn't fight in the nomadic wars, they came later. Danzou is the next generation, not Izuna's. Add another 20 years and Danzou hair won't be black, considering everyone else's hair is grey or white. it's impossible for Tobi to be Izuna. Chronologically and physically.Quote:
You don't know when Yagura became a Jinchuuriki of the 3-tails. It could have happened after Rin was implanted and things ran amock. We don't know. The Bloody Mist Era happened when Zabuza was a kid but that could have been as early as 10 years ago. All Kakashi says is "Long ago, during the blood mist era...". Once again no definitive time point is given. The Blood Mist era could have happened after Rin's death, and Obito could have taken control of Yagura, and Zabuza could have gone on his killing spree. No problem.Quote:
I'm sorry where does it say in the manga that 1 person can extract a bijuui by themselves? It takes a lot of chakra spread out over several strong individuals Because if Obito could do it in 15 years why the hell couldn't Izuna do it in 50 years? You're so angry at Obito being Tobi that you don't realize that Izuna's case is outright pathetic. You can explain Obito taking a few years to learn his new abilites, and gathering a few recruits. How big was Akastuki when Orochimaru joined/left? Kakuzu was the money side of the business. Why would they need money to get Jinchuuriki, becasue they need to find out who they are. it's going to take some time and money for the Akatsuki to identify and track down all the bijuus. That and the fact you need Naruto to grow to a point where he can defend himself explains 15 years. However, that doesn't explain's Izuna's MIA of 50 years though.Quote:
You don't know the motvations behind the Mist strategy to destroy the Leaf-for kicks? It could have been for previous trangressions, hence the cycle of hate.Quote:
You gave ranges, but no dates since none are provided. We don't even know how long the 3rd Great Shinobi war lasted it was several years. The final war stopped 3 years after Naruto's birth when the Cloud and Fire declared peace. Obito could have died and several years passed before Yahiko does. There is nothing preventing from Obito becoming Tobi then a few years passes until he meets Yahiko who could easily been alive. You're trying to box in Yahiko's death into a certain timeframe so you can declare a plothole when no such evidence exists.Quote:
He may have stopped feeling guilty, but Kishi disagrees with you about being over it. He shows that Kakashi isn't over the death and memory of Obito. So clearly your assumption was wrong and Kakashi does need Tobi to be Obtio for further development.Quote:
Nagato became dedicated to bring peace after the dead of Chibi, and then abandoned that path after the death of Yahiko. Two events with immediate effects. So your attempt to claim that a bunch of time is needed to see any effect just doesn't work. And yes, this debate is about how Kishi didn't meet the expectations he himself gave us. There's nothing grandiose about believing Kishi would display this war like previously shown wars or making it live up to the hype he set forth.
Itachi's experience in war was what made him so dedicated to peace. And it was Obito's words during that wartime that changed Kakashi. Just because it could have happen outside of war doesn't change that it happen or the point that it should be happening now with someone or another.
Aside from it not being a surprise attack, there's nothing hypocritical about it. Pretty sure no one complained about the "length" of the war or said that was a problem. The lack of development in the current situation is the complaint, something the Suna/Oto invasion wasn't lacking. It had major effects upon the characters: Naruto defined his belief, Sasuke develop more humanity, Gaara changed from a psychopath and became more caring towards his siblings. And in addition to Kakashi's actions in the Third World War, we also had Minato's side, events with the Ame orphans that lead to Nagato losing hope, and the previously mentioned scene with Itachi. And Mifune had his moment against Hanzou during the war, long before their rematch. I'm not even sure where you got this resolve thing from, since Mifune had no issue challenging Hanzou again.
Mei directly mentions how it's been a long time since his reign and how they were in the old days. Combined with Kakashi's words, and that puts it 13+ years ago. Aside from the fact that it takes time for a Bijuu to be reborn in the world, and thus would have taken some years for Kiri to even get the Sanbi back after Rin's death, it would have also taken time for the Sanibi to be implanted in Yagura and for him to master it to the point of becoming known for it before his death.
The less there are, the longer it takes. And no, Izuna's case wouldn't be pathetic due to him presumably being far to weak to act overt and thus explains why he had to act from the shadows. Throw in having to wait for the right agent, Nagato, to fulfill the plan and it's just fine. There's no excuse for Obito when it's shown that he's plenty strong and was simply holding back for no logical reason. Given that he clearly had no intention of allowing Madara to be apart of the plan, he had no reaosn to manipulate Nagato. How big? Had eleven members according to Onoki. Kakuzu's money had nothing to do with finding the Jinchuuriki. It was directly mentioned that most of the Jinchuuriki were unloved by their villages, and that the first two were simply handed over to Akatsuki. Then there's the several Jicnhuuriki that weren't even in their villages. Point is, there was no reason for them to spend money trying to find them, especially when it was apparently common for the Jinchuuriki to be related to the Kage.
Yahiko was mentioned to have died during the Third World War, making your claim that it's not a plothole moot. Yahiko and co were quite younger when Obito approached them, despite Obito supposedly "dying" towards the end of the war.
A few fodder ninja doesn't mean the whole army has found enlightenment. It was positioned so that Gaara's speech inspired the troops. If a speech about saving the a friend frees everyone of hate for all of humanity, then why is Naruto going to be the one to free the system of hate. Unless they aren't free of the cycle of hate.Quote:
Every military tactics book tells us you're full of ignorance. Unless it involves airplanes, nukes, or paratroopers it all happened eons ago. Sorry, but you're completely wrong on this one.Quote:
No, he's not. You're taking two events that happened years apart disregarding all the events/battles/deaths/wars that transpire between them and say the shinobi alliance should behave the same. Well it hasn't been years, it's been 48 hours. People are different, conditions are different, the series of events are different so why should they behave the same? Hell, Kakashi lost Rin and Obito in a war but did he go postal and try to destroy the world under the yoke of fear and intimidation? No, he didn't so just because you're in a war doesn't mean you get changed by it instantaneously.Quote:
It has everything to show how war effects people. How was Konan affected by all the wars? No clue, she's dead. Aside from stopping war how was Yahiko was affected by the wars? No clue, he's dead. Nagato is really the only one we see impacted through a series of flashbacks which lead to his reasoning but aside from that, there's not much else. Having Obito giving motivations for Itachi is one-step removed from the source but the primary reason for what Itachi does is for Sasuke, even Obito says that much. It clearly doesn't show how Itachi was changed by going through this war, he was 4 years old. We have no clue what he was like before that. If Obito had made it out alive do you think Kakashi would still go to the memorial stone? No, his death is what changed Kakashi along with Obito's words, but the war did nothing.Quote:
Are you frigging serious? War is about battle, not character development. If it was true (thankfully, it's not) then the prelims to the chuunin exams was the greatest war of all time! The 1st and 2nd Shinobi wars didn't happen because we have no character development? That's not how it works. You and others have been using the wrong measuring stick to evaluate this war, then tout that the current struggle isn't a war because you're looking at it incorrrectly. Character development is inconsequential as to whether a fight is a war, battle, skirmish, feud, or scuffle. It may make it more enjoyable to read but has zero relevance if the battle is a war or not. So yes, you're a hypocrite if you stil contend that the Sand attack is a war while the current battle is not. Plain and simple.Quote:
Obviously it's not since they've had 3 wars in 60 years. All it takes is 1 person to fall and ithey're caught up in it again. They haven't found a solution yet and Gaara's little pep talk didn't do it either.Quote:
The debate isn't whether an attack was coming or not. They positioned themselves defenseively since they didn't know whom, where, when or how. Well the Sound snake didn't look all that good after Jiraya's toad sat on it, and every panel after the signal to counterattack was given shows the Leaf winning. Yes, they were routing the enemy.Quote:
Nope, not at all. His Hollow form didn't defeat Aizen his Shinigami (Quincy) powers did.Quote:
Yes, he was. And 1 time is better than not time which is what Izuna was.Quote:
And it's secondary material, not primary. Kishi never tells us when the village was formed in the manga. Only that it happened less than 80 years ago. Even the notion of the village being formed 60 years ago is suspect because the manga never tells us when it actually happened. It could have been 70 years ago. Or 40 years ago. You can't build a chronological argument if you don't even have the starting point correct.Quote:
I'm not counting Mito below him. I'm keeping them equal. For Hashiramna to be 20, Mito needs to have TM (Tsunade's mom) at age 10, who then is turn has to have Tsunade at age 10 so Tsunade is born 1 year after the founding of the village. So Tsunade is born 1 AV (after village). TM is born in 10 BV(before village) and Mito has to be 10 when TM is born. Of course it's biologically impossible to concieve at 9-years old since pregnancy takes 9 months. So Hashiama has to be older than 20. Let's say Hashrama and Mito are 30. For Tsunade to be born in 1 AV, TM needs to be born in 15 BV (where Mito and Hashirma are 15). 15 is still very young for both women to have kids, even so this scernario puts Hashirama at 90 in the present timeline, making Izuna already 85 if not older. Let's say the women wait until age 20 for both. Tsunade is born in 1 AV, TM is born in 20 BV where Mito and Hashirama are both 20. That puts Hashirama at 100 in the current time line and makes Izuna 95. As the time lengthens Hashirama's age doubles. So Hashirama has to be in his mid-30's at least when the village is founded. It makes sense. Tobi says the story starts over 80 years and when Kishi does the flashback of Hasriirama and Madara, they are in their preteens. 80+ years plus 10 makes 90+ years in the current timeline. So Izuna is around 90, not 70 like you want. Izuna is too old to be Tobi.Quote:
Not necessarily. Once agian we have no age of Sarutobi. the only info we have is that Sarutobi taught the Sannin when they were roughly 11 around 12 AV (going with the timeline in the above scenario). So if he was 20 when that event happened he was 8 when the village was founded. That puts him 25 years behind Hashirama and 20 behind Izuna which is 1 generation. Danzou isn't going to have black hair in another 20 years, so once again Izuna can't physically be Tobi.Quote:
Long ago is a dimensionless term. You can't quantify it. It could be 2 years ago or 1000 years ago. So Rin died, Yagura becomes a Jinchuuriki. Obito takes control on Yagura, says hello to Kisame, and lets Zabuza have his killing spree. Naruto was made a Jinchuuriki in a matter of minutes with no planning! It doesn't take years. Nor does it take years to catch one after a hosts dies. Bee said it would give "some time" after he killed Naruto to prevent Obito from getting the Kyuubi, it's not years. No plothole.Quote:
You're going linear to zero when we don't know if that works. You're assuming there isn't a minimum amount of chakra needed to use the Gedo Mazo. For example. If the statue requires 100 units of chakra/hour to work and Obito can only generate 50 units/hour Tobi will never get Gedo Mado to activate. But if you have 3 guys then you have 150 units/hour and can use the statue. We don't know how the extraction process works, only that it does. There is no evidence suggesting that one person can do it. That's speculation on your part. The rest of your argument is pure excrement. Why is Izuna weak and Obito strong if they're supposed to be the same person? Obito was shamelessly weak during the Kakashi gaiden arc. Why does he have to wait 50 years for Nagato when the only requirement is to kill an Uzumaki's parents and pop in some eye-balls. There were 2 prior wars and more Uzumakis back then. There's no need to have events unfurl over 50+ years when you're already bitching that 15 years was way too long for Obito being Tobi to get his act together. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You use the same metric for both scenarios and Izuna's falls flat on his face. There is no logical explaination why Izuna sits around for 50 years before forming the Akatsuki and going after the bijuus since he can do it single-handedly.Quote:
Really? These villages hold grudges. They make not act upon it like in Hinata's abduction, but they don't forget. Vengence is a very likely reason for Rin's tragic scenario.Quote:
Who says Obito died at the end of the war? Where does it say that, he could have died at the beginning? You know it happens when Kakashi is 13, but that has no bearing on Yahiko's timeline for when he dies. We don't knwo when the war ends. It could be years before Yahiko dies and well after Obito's death. There two seperate timelimes. You can't connect them and claim plothole.Quote:
It's not a retcon when you have no evidence that Kakashi has moved on. All you have in a conversation with his father and a desire for Tobi not being Obito and giving a reason for Kakaashi to have character development. If you had a scenario after the conversation with Kakashi's father demonstrateing that Kakahi has moved on, then you can claim your retcon. But you don't. So Kishi isn't retconning, and your assuimption is still incorrect.Quote:
Last edited by Brill; July 31, 2013 at 05:53 AM.
One of the most dissapointing things, not the biggest, was Hanzou for me. A guy who was so hyped by Jiraiya just turned out to be some poison user? Really? His fight against Mifune was a total joke to me, this is the guy who foguth against the 3 Sannin and in the 2nd world war and lived to tell the tale, who fought Chiyo multiple times and had a few battles with Nagato. His hype was a total waste and he delivered nothing in the fight against Mifune, I was sorely dissapointed. He was one of the top 5 Edo's I was looking forward to in battle.
How is using the measurement stick that Kishi has given us using the wrong one? Character development is important, especially in this war which is suppose to be the greatest one yet that finally brings peace. I believe you got that backwards, with nothing but fighting enjoyable but overall irrelevant. There's nothing hypocritical about it.
I would say that it's the comprehension not the argument that's the problem. First off, up until the reveal, Tobi's only method of fighting was spamming Kamui. He was shown in each of his three fights completely reliant on it, without much without it. That's understandable for Izuna, being incapable of putting up much of a fight against younger characters at his age. But Obito was shown not only still capable of using his past techniques, but also possessing Mokuton good enough to fight Kakashi and a cloaked Naruto with. So all the times Tobi got showed up after Kamui was gotten around, that shouldn't have happen. Secondly, Obito wasn't "shamelessly" weak? He was shown fighting evenly alongside Kakashi. Thirdly, it took 50 years for the Rinnegan to even awaken, so how exactly could he have popped in some eyeballs if he didn't have said eyeballs? It's hardly as if I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. The entire Infinite Tsukuyomi requires the Rinnegan and Gedo Mazo, which Izuna would have had to wait for like Madara did. Obito on the otherhand had no need to await for them, they had already been prepared for him by Madara. And since there's no explanation for Madara waiting, there's no reason Izuna would have to be explained.
Oonoki didn't. Oonoki wasn't moved by Garra's speech he only wanted to destroy the Akatsuki. So in a force of 100,000 shinobi there will be others that's weren't moved by Gaara's speech just like Oonoki. So Gaara's speech didn't break the cycle of hate.Quote:
Battle of Marathon, double flanking movements 400 BC. Tsung Tsu in the Art of War loved the pincer atack and he wasn't modern either and Kishi used that maneuver too. Julius Caesar, Hannibal all used flanking tactics. Just concede this point that the tactics are older than dirt.Quote:
Kishi's not, you are. You want one person's unique circumstances to be emultaed by others who aren't the same and cry foul when it doesn't happen. Once again Nagato wasn't turned into a monster in 48 hours it happened over a period of years, so why should the Alliance?Quote:
I'm not forgeting the scenes, I asked how war changed them. We have no cluie on how the war changed Konan, she's a weakly developed chatacter who wasn't changed by the events around her. Same for Yahiko. We knew he wants to stop war as a child, but how did the war impact him as a young adult? Again, we're given nothing.Quote:
Thanks for proving my point. You want to use made-up devices to evaluating this war. War is war whether I read War and Peace or Naruto. It really is that simple.Quote:
Here's the definition of war from Webster's dictionary
a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2) : a period of such armed conflict (3) : state of war b : the art or science of warfare c (1) obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2) archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war
2a : a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b : a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end <a class war> <a war against disease> .
I don't see character development in there do you? I do see armed conflict, and guess what. THAT"S WHAT WE HAVE! So yes, it's a war.
Because you're putting the cart before the horse. War happens and people are changed. However, the reverse isn't true. If charcters don't change there is no war. That is the fault in your argument.Quote:
Jiraiya, Nagato, Kakashi, and Hashirama all cite the cycle of hate being the cause of war. Kishi has put it in so many times I thought everyone knew.Quote:
Ibiki knew of an impending attack but the response is neutral. We have no knowledge that they knew a priori until the hammer dropped. The fighting was over before Orochimaru finished off Sarutobi. The whole series of events led upto this. You don't see the invading force leaving because they're dead or captured. They were already routed.Quote:
Sure, but what attack stopped Aizen. Shinigami.Quote:
Oh no, it's still secondary. Databooks are suportive evidence not direct evidence regardless of who writes it, hence secondary. That would be the manga itself, and it was never given. So the time the village was formed is not definitive.Quote:
For 2 children at age 9 to get pregnant, damn right that's impossible. That's the scenario you want to believe so Izuna can be in his teens and it simply can't happen. Even if the girls are at 15 which is still young that puts Hashirama at 30 and Izuna at 25. If you believe the databook then Sarutobi is at least 17 years younger (since he's 8 when the village was founded) than Izuna. No one is going to have black hiar in their mid 80's. You're trying to sign age by photo's and that doesn't work unless there is a date when the event happened.Quote:
Tobi says Madara's story starts over 80 years ago, but at what age does Madara start at? When Kishi returns to the same storyline and elaborates on the same events Madara is in his preteens. So 90+ years for Madara in the current timeline is spot on. So Izuna attacking the world at 90 is just not feasible. A still worse plothole.
So my example of him being 20 was correct? Wow. But it's a databook, not the manga. That confirms that Izuna is 20 years older than Sarutobi and can't be Tobi and still have black hair. Thanks for providing the final nail to your own coffin.Quote:
Last time I checked 16 years is greater than 10 years. Plenty of time for Rin to die, Yagura to become the Jinchuuriki, get possessed by Obtio and then Zabuza to go on his killing spree. Still no plothole.Quote:
It's sort of implied since he'd need other people to use it. There's no evidence saying one person can do it all either.Quote:
Did Tobi need to kill them? No, he didn't need to engage them so why tip your hand to the enemy if you don't have to? Xellos did the same thing in Slayers, teleporting so as not to get hit but also did not directly engage his prey. Did that make him weak? No, hw was one of the strongest monsters ever! So just because Tobi refuses to engage his advesaries and only used kamui does not suggest weakness, it could be simply because he doesn't need to. Secondly, Obito was weak, Kakashi was clearly the superior ninja between the two and Kakashi has a low opnion of him. Thridly why did it take 50 years for the Rinnegan to manifest, because Naruto was born around 10 years later. The place in time it takes is irrelevant since it would happen 10 years before Naruto was born whenever Naruto was born, whether is was 10 years after the villlage's creation or 100 years. Once again it doesn't explain why Izuna sat on his ass for 50 years before doing anything.Quote:
You're just speculating they didn't. They just came up with the idea to destroy the village just on a whim? The major motive in this world is revenge. Kishi has been putting it everywhere in his stories as the primary motive. So yeah, a grugde is a pretty good bet.Quote:
Going on for some time doesn't mean that Kakashi Gaiden didn't happen in the first half of hte war. That's why you need bookends to confine the war, which we don't have. That's why you trying to create a plothole by using one timeline to prove a plothole on a separate timeline is futile because you can't link the two.Quote:
You're counting your chickem before it hatched. Just because he has a conversation with dad doesn't mean he's made the decision to move on. You needed confirmation and you had none. Kishi believes Kakashi needed this battle for his character to move on and I agree with it. Whether it happens on a war front or a back alley is irrelevant to me, but Kakashi needed the battle with Obito so he could move on.Quote:
it isn't. Obito's story begins before Madara as he talks about the era, so again, that moot. We know for a fact that Madara didn't gain his EMS til shortly before the founding of Konoha and that he met Hashirama well before being an adult. And no, that age is wrong. Even if it wasn't, Onoki clearly proves you wrong in that regard.
i agree with the most post here but i would like to add something dissapointing to me.
we never saw the full extent of the hyuga clan's power(meaning Byakugan) it had so much praise through out the story for being powerfull like sharingang & rinnegan but it never shined.
kishi could easily have a couple of chapter unleashing its potential and it would help with the feel of the whole ark not being so monotonus....