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Thread: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread <3

  1. #76
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisame Hoshigaki View Post
    i was told what hashirama did and what madara did to gain freedom were different
    Madara undid the contract for the ET.

    Hashirama...well, he Hashirama'd his way out of it.

  2. #77
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Disappointment? that i have with this arc, no doubt in that. actually, it is so disappointing nowadays, that whole time spent behind following this manga feels wasted. anyway, i would like to state few reasons behind my disappointment.

    firstly, the buildup for the war. whole ninja world vs Tobi, Kabuto and Zetsu (and more Zetsu) and also zombies. actually, Zetsu clones and Zombies had nothing to say in this regard, so we must as well call it as three vs the whole world. for me, that is a very bad buildup for an epic war arc.

    then we have the battles. none of them felt anything special. even when there was fight between zombie kages and ninja alliance, it felt just as cheap. moreover, no single battle managed to satisfy the expectations from readers. what is even more sad is that most of the fights have been completed either off panel or it was rushed. and the on screen battles never reached any convincing ending.

    another thing is about the major characters. i will start with kakashi who was about to go on a rampage against Mist swordsman; which we never got to see. then we have sudden power surge from characters of Naruto's group, which of course was sudden and apparently left at that. we have seen sudden surge from likes of Choji, Kiba, Shikamaru, Ino etc. and then they were left forgotten. or characters like Sakura who had sudden increase in her abilities just to fall back to her old self, as in to cheering for sasuke. the inconsistencies of character development and the use of characters has always been a weak point for this manga.

    then we have powers of the characters. now tactics, chakra, stamina etc are pointless. all of the characters can fight for days and go on; no problem. when a boost is required, they can just shake hands with Naruto and voila. and Naruto? he can be exhausted after giving all those chakra, just to rest for few minutes and regain the chakra again. that is cheap, disregarding basics of the manga.

    and finally few other characters, namely, Tobi, Madara and Kyuubi. all of these characters are ruined. Kyuubi is a pet for Naruto and is friendly with everyone; if it was only with Naruto while still being in character, it would have been better. but no, Kishi had to make Kyuubi something pathetic. then we have Tobi, who actually turned into a maniac only because his crush was killed; that's a pathetic excuse for world domination. since the revelation, Tobi's character is out of the window and in the dirt. and we have Madara who is sitting in the war because he has a date with Hashirama.
    Naruto Forever


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  4. #78
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    Spoiler show
    Agreed with most of your post:
    But there are some points where i think you have over did it.

    First was about build up: Consider this as real, Kages didn't know the exact manpower of Madara. They knew Madara, they Knew he is dangerous and they prepared for the worst (or to finish this once and for all)

    Secondly Fights with previous Kages: They weren't as bad as you said, none of them was one shotted (Well Raikga was kinda one shotted) with out giving a decent fight and required some actuall ninja skills to beat them.

    Thirdly about Kyubi being Friendly: Well he is a pet of Naruto and then become friend of him, believed in him so no wonder he helped him a lot.

    Apart from those points i agree that there were several disappointments, fights that were started but never finished, characters geting extra ordinary boosts in skill sets or in their chakra pools.

  5. #79
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Yeah it was, it resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands by a select group. It being political doesn't change that. Genocides aren't solely about ethnics.
    So what? It was one group of French people killing another group of French people. That's the nature of civil war. If the French revolution was about French people exterminating gypsies then you have your genocide, but it wasn't. It was about replacing the French monarchy and the insurrections that enxued after it.

    Quote Quote:
    And again, Naruto was also suppose to change Sasuke, yet Itachi and the Hokages did that. We have Zabuza, Neji, Gaara, and Nagato all showing that what was did was the cycle is broken by the standards of the series. I presume you're talking about the Oto/Suna invasion, which had nothing to do with the cycle of hatred. Anyway, you're trying to apply a logic to Gaara and ignoring that the same logic would apply to Naruto, something Kishi basically ignores.
    Just because Sasuke changed his mind in destroying the village doesn't mean he's a choir boy. Hell, even Sakura knows he's up to something. Naruto does influence Zabuza, Neji, and Gaara, but the system consists of everybody not just 1 or 2 individuals. Kishi shows that Naruto can affect people from their previous ways of thinking. Kishi show Naruto's first attempt at bridging the gap between everyone by giving the Kyuubi's power to all in the alliance. That won't change the system but is an indirect sign of what's to come. Unfortunately, Kishi will probably choke when it comes to the real task. Time will tell.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah they are. You're trying to apply only modern warfare as the standard and completely ignoring that most wars were not conducted in such a specific way, like the Vietnam War.
    Scouting, flanking movements, advance troop deployments, nightime raiding have been around since ancient times. There is nothing modern about it. At least Naruto tries to emulate a wartime environment rather than the typical shounen battle royale.

    Quote Quote:
    I don't like it because it's not a duck. You keep trying to make it as if the dislikers have "lofty" ideas about what should be happening when all we're doing is going by past examples.
    Yet that is the issue here. You having a Civic in front of you when you want a Mercedes. A Civic isn't a Mercedes, but it's still a car. Just because you don't like the Civic doesn't prevent it from being a car. Kishi has met all the preconditions you've thrown out there. You don't like them, that's fine. But Kishi accomplished what he set out to do, just because you don't like it doesn't invalidate it.

    Quote Quote:
    No, it happens to people during. The series literally gave us numerous examples of people being changed by war straight away during said wars.
    Really? And who are these said people? This is the first war we've actually witness unfold. The only people who've been affected are the Ame orphans and they're all dead. So now, we don't know the affects of war, the only thing we have is Nagato's diatribe on the effects of war which happened off-screen to people we don't know. There aren't numerous examples despite your view to the contrary.

    Quote Quote:
    There isn't any history being Oto and Suna, given that Oto had just recently been created and wasn't even a real village. And there wasn't any cycle of hatred between them. Regardless, the point remains that the Alliance isn't simply "working together", it's been outright shown that the various ninjas have forgiven and accepted one another. It makes no sense for a big deal to be made about them all forgiving each other and working together if that's not what happened.
    You don't know that, you're speculating. They weren't buddies before their alliance, but now that they in an alliance they are their supposedly free of the cycle of hate? Not at all. Look and the next alliance between the Sand and the Leaf. Even though they've formed an alliance they are still bound by the cycle of hate. once someone dies they get caught up in it. It's a never ending cycle of repetition.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah Konoha did know all that. Konoha's forces were already prepared and set up to counter them before the actual invasion. Konoha didn't rout them, they retreated after Orochimaru lost his arms. And desperate? A force of two hundred completely devastated Konoha. Had they used a bigger force, then Konoha likely wouldn't have stood any chance. Iwa and Suna lost too, that's a moot point. And Hanzou didn't need help, Danzo offered it to him in exchange for Ame's support.Why would Danzo make a deal to gain Ame's support in his bid for Hokage if they were too weak to matter?
    They knew jack. Hayate was killed before he could relate the crucial intel. The Leaf didn't know where the attack was coming from. They didn't know when because they had scattered their forces all over the place. They didn't know how the battle was going to proceed or that Gaara was the key to it all. They knew some of the why, the part of Orochimaru, but they didn't know about why the Sand was involved. You seem to forget that the Leaf had it forces spread across it's entire border since they didn't know where it was coming from. Kakashi complained at the few numbers of ANBU at the chuunin finals but it couldn't be helped. They were stretched thin. After Konoha secured the citizens they began their counterattack and routed not only Orochimaru's forces but the Sands as well.

    Quote Quote:
    They were essential to the plot. Are you forgetting that they were the key to Ichigo gaining more power to even get to Aizen's level, not to mention pretty much ensuring that the battle came down to him and Aizen?
    They were useless since Ichigo learned the final Getsuga Tensho (sp?) in the barrier between the Earth and the Soul Society. Nothing Ichigo did in Hueco Mundo had anything to do with the final battle between him and Aizen. Not his battle with Grimjaw or Uqiuoora (sp?). Nothing. Kubo could have cut most of Hueco Mundo and the plot would still go on unabated.

    Quote Quote:
    Again, Tobirama didn't become established til he was actually shown. Before being revived as an Edo Tensei, Tobirama wasn't mentioned at all. So claiming that because Izuna hasn't been given the same benefit of being revived in the current story he has no relevance is silly.
    You forget Danzo's flashback when him, Sarutobi-oh, and the Second Hokage were pursued by Cloud ninja? He was certainly established there into the storyline. Was Izuna, nope. You could say Joe Uchiha gave Madara the MS and it'd have simnilar weight becuase Izuna wasn't even established into the story yet.

    Quote Quote:
    No, he's not. How is that debatable when we were outright told it was 60 years? They were most likely in their 20's. And you seem to be forgetting that Izuna was a child when Madara and Hashirama were in their preteens. You keep placing him at the same age, when it's clear that he was younger. And since the village was founded right after his death, when Sarutobi was in his preteens and Onoki was a teenager, he wouldn't be all that much older then them, thus 70-80.
    Where does it say it was exactly 60 years ago? All we know is it formed after "over 80 years ago". That's a very vargue timeline and we aren't given a specific date. You're guessing they're in the 20's to support your house of cards. If the village was formed 60 years ago how do you explain Tsunade being born as early as the the next year (ie. she's 59). Since Hashirama dies soon after the village's founding she must be in her upper 50's since he knows her, right? So explain to me how Hashirama is a grandfather at 20? Please, how does one ignore human biology where Mito and Tsuande's mother both get pregnant at the age of 9? Because that is the only way that Tusnade can be born, and Hashirama is in his 20's and the village is formed 60 years ago. One or more of the stipulations is incorrect and Jiraiya tells us Tsunade is in her 50's. So Hashirama can't be in his 20's when the village was founded or the village wasn't founded 60 years ago or both points are invalid. So which is it?

    Quote Quote:
    Izuna was more then a few years younger. And Onoki was in his late teens, just like Izuna would have been. And why wouldn't Izuna have black hair? Danzo's in his 70's and he still had black hair. So there's nothing physically impossible about it.
    Oh I'll give you 3-5 years younger. But Danzou is not of Izuna's generation, he's the next generation. You still expect Danzo to have black hair when he's 90. I don't think so. Once again it's physically impossible for Izuna to be Tobi, not when the oldest closest person to Izuna has stark white hair.

    Quote Quote:
    It has plenty to do with Tobi being Obito, because it caused a bunch of things to be either pushed back or thrown out of any conceivable order, such as the Bloody Mist and Yagura being controlled. And it puts the Third World War and Yahiko's death later then previously shown.
    We don't know who Kisame saw while manipulating Yagura. We don't know when Obito controlled Yagura and for how long it went. It just shows him being manipulated but not when. Once again you focus on wars but don't show any paradoxes. You don't show any dates. Why? Because there aren't any. We don't know when Yahiko dies so how can you claim that the timeline has been altereed when Kishi doesn't give us any dates for his death. Obito and Yahiko could easily have met. There's no problem that needs fixing

    Quote Quote:
    Because what Kishi wrote makes no sense. How is it more believable for Obito to form an organization he didn't even need and then sit around in the shadows for 15 years when he was capable of completing the plan straight away verses an injured and weakened Izuna needing to wait til conditions were right to begin the plan? And how exactly is it better that Madara literally waited 50-some years for a person he had no idea would have come or would have assisted him? The way things have happen have relied on a whole bunch of specific and farfetch events to happen in exactly the right way.
    Why doesn't he need them? He can't he do it by himself He doesn't have enough chakra to pull a bijuu from a Jinchuuriki all by himself. Most of the other Jinchuuriki were males so Tobi couldn't sit aorund and wait for them to have babies. That's why he needed the others. Obito was a genin. He doesn't have the contacts and resources to form an organization overnight. It would take time to build those connections with the darker elements of society. 15 years is an adequate time to form the Akatsuki, no 50 years for Izuna. How else are you going to have Obito to take up Madara's charge of revenge, put it in a book? The two had to meet to link both timelines.

    Quote Quote:
    Simply fighting doesn't lead to the cycle of hatred and the fighting between the villages isn't caused solely by the cycle of hatred. Point remains that Rin wasn't killed because Kiri wanted revenge, it had nothing to do with the cycle of hatred.
    Yes it does. That's was Nagato's diatribe to Naruto was all about. As long as people love and want to protect people the cycle of hate persists because they will take revenge for their loved ones. The Mist village wanted to destroy the Leaf village so they take Rin and implant her with the 3-tails. Why? Because they wanted to get at Kakashi? No, they want to destroy the village for strategic advantages and settle old scores. The reason for her death was the cycle of hate.

    Quote Quote:
    A date was given, between 15 and 17 years ago, since it happen after Kakashi's 13th birthday but before Naruto's birth when Kakashi was 15. And given that we have seen them in their 20's, and they look no different when they met Obito has they did being trained by Jiraiya, pretty sure I can make that claim.
    Was a date given when it happened? No. You're trying to isolate this event before Naruto's birth but there isn't anything preventing the meeting between Obito and Yahiko from occuring afterwards. The real queston is was Yahilo alive 16 years ago. We know that Yahiko died but we don't know the exact time when he did. They could be having a bad hair day, or even a bad panel day. There is nothing telling us how old they were when they met.

    Quote Quote:
    No, it was resolved. The entire meeting with his father was about resolving it. It makes no sense for him to have been given a heart to heart with his father and nothing come from it. And as mentioned before, the entire memorial thing hasn't been shown since Part Two began. It was a nonfactor.
    Sure it does. Kakashi met his dad so his dad could tell him to stop faulting himself for what happened. That doesn't mean he's over the tragedy itself. Just because you've stopped feeling guilty over their deaths doesn't mean Kakashi has moved on. Those are two separate events. He may have stoppped blaming himself but he clearly needs this battle with Obito to move on. Kishi doesn't think so and that's why Obito and Kakashi are fighting, because Kakashi needed this.

  6. #80
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    So what? It was one group of French people killing another group of French people. That's the nature of civil war. If the French revolution was about French people exterminating gypsies then you have your genocide, but it wasn't. It was about replacing the French monarchy and the insurrections that enxued after it.
    It wasn't a civil war, which is the point. It wasn't two sides fighting against one another, it was one side killing the other without opposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Just because Sasuke changed his mind in destroying the village doesn't mean he's a choir boy. Hell, even Sakura knows he's up to something. Naruto does influence Zabuza, Neji, and Gaara, but the system consists of everybody not just 1 or 2 individuals. Kishi shows that Naruto can affect people from their previous ways of thinking. Kishi show Naruto's first attempt at bridging the gap between everyone by giving the Kyuubi's power to all in the alliance. That won't change the system but is an indirect sign of what's to come. Unfortunately, Kishi will probably choke when it comes to the real task. Time will tell.
    Since Naruto's goal was never about turning Sasuke into a "choir boy" but simply getting him to return to Team Seven and Konoha, the point remains the same. And Gaara spoke to everyone, doing exactly what Naruto does. Naruto granting the cloak to everyone had nothing to do with "bridging" the gap. There wasn't any gap at that point, they were completely united to the point of being willing to sacrifice themselves all for Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Scouting, flanking movements, advance troop deployments, nightime raiding have been around since ancient times. There is nothing modern about it. At least Naruto tries to emulate a wartime environment rather than the typical shounen battle royale.
    They were rarely around. It wasn't until modern times that they became commonplace in warfare. It's a meaningless emulation if it goes against previous examples and still ends up just the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yet that is the issue here. You having a Civic in front of you when you want a Mercedes. A Civic isn't a Mercedes, but it's still a car. Just because you don't like the Civic doesn't prevent it from being a car. Kishi has met all the preconditions you've thrown out there. You don't like them, that's fine. But Kishi accomplished what he set out to do, just because you don't like it doesn't invalidate it.
    Again, it has nothing to do with what I don't like. It has everything to do with what Kishi himself had previously set as the preconditions for war. Him completely negating his own logic is not something I should just accept just because, especially since he didn't accomplish what he had been setting up. This war was suppose to be Naruto's testing point, the situation where Naruto faced the terrors of war like his predecessors and came through better for it. Instead, there hasn't been anything to push him or cause him to develop as a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Really? And who are these said people? This is the first war we've actually witness unfold. The only people who've been affected are the Ame orphans and they're all dead. So now, we don't know the affects of war, the only thing we have is Nagato's diatribe on the effects of war which happened off-screen to people we don't know. There aren't numerous examples despite your view to the contrary.
    I already gave you the list: the Ame orphans, Itachi, Kakashi, and Mifune. This is not the first war we have witness, it's the third. Maybe that's the problem, that you have forgotten that we directly witness events in both the Suna/Oto invasion and the Third World War. Because it makes no sense for you to say we don't know the effects of war when it's been the key points to several character. I mean, heck, Itachi's entire character is based off of the carnage he saw during the war. And I shouldn't even have to mention Kakashi and his own character change that happen during a single day. Really, there's no way you can simply disregard the numerous examples of development during wartime. Nor can you just write off the Ame orphans simply because they are currently dead, since that in no way negates the fact that we directly saw them change during the events of the Second World War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You don't know that, you're speculating. They weren't buddies before their alliance, but now that they in an alliance they are their supposedly free of the cycle of hate? Not at all. Look and the next alliance between the Sand and the Leaf. Even though they've formed an alliance they are still bound by the cycle of hate. once someone dies they get caught up in it. It's a never ending cycle of repetition.
    How is it speculation when we were told that not only was Oto just recently formed, but literally knew it wasn't much more then a hideout for Orochimaru to do his experiments. It's not as if they were an actual village going off on missions or protecting their nation. Yeah, their free of the cycle of hatred now. As mentioned before, there is no cycle of hatred if there's no one wanting revenge. Someone merely dying doesn't fuel the cycle, nor is it a never ending cycle of repetition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    They knew jack. Hayate was killed before he could relate the crucial intel. The Leaf didn't know where the attack was coming from. They didn't know when because they had scattered their forces all over the place. They didn't know how the battle was going to proceed or that Gaara was the key to it all. They knew some of the why, the part of Orochimaru, but they didn't know about why the Sand was involved. You seem to forget that the Leaf had it forces spread across it's entire border since they didn't know where it was coming from. Kakashi complained at the few numbers of ANBU at the chuunin finals but it couldn't be helped. They were stretched thin. After Konoha secured the citizens they began their counterattack and routed not only Orochimaru's forces but the Sands as well.
    Really? So Ibiki and his troops awaiting for the attack is them knowing jack? They knew the attack was coming and was prepared for it as mentioned. And their forces weren't spread across the border. I believe you mean wall, and that really doesn't change the original point. And no, there was no routing. Konoha's counterattack began as soon as the attack began, and Oto and Suna didn't retreat til Orochimaru retreated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    They were useless since Ichigo learned the final Getsuga Tensho (sp?) in the barrier between the Earth and the Soul Society. Nothing Ichigo did in Hueco Mundo had anything to do with the final battle between him and Aizen. Not his battle with Grimjaw or Uqiuoora (sp?). Nothing. Kubo could have cut most of Hueco Mundo and the plot would still go on unabated.
    Really? So you're just gonna ignore that those fights were necessary for Ichigo to master his hollow side, the same hollow that he eventually had to face. That logic doesn't even make sense. By your own reasoning, this war is pointless and Kishi should have just skipped to the fight with Naruto...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You forget Danzo's flashback when him, Sarutobi-oh, and the Second Hokage were pursued by Cloud ninja? He was certainly established there into the storyline. Was Izuna, nope. You could say Joe Uchiha gave Madara the MS and it'd have simnilar weight becuase Izuna wasn't even established into the story yet.
    How did I forget it? Danzo flashback happen (long) after Tobidama had been revived by Orochimaru, so again we're right back at my point. And no, it wouldn't have similar weight, considering a major theme has been about brotherly bonds, especially on the Uchiha side of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Where does it say it was exactly 60 years ago? All we know is it formed after "over 80 years ago". That's a very vargue timeline and we aren't given a specific date. You're guessing they're in the 20's to support your house of cards. If the village was formed 60 years ago how do you explain Tsunade being born as early as the the next year (ie. she's 59). Since Hashirama dies soon after the village's founding she must be in her upper 50's since he knows her, right? So explain to me how Hashirama is a grandfather at 20? Please, how does one ignore human biology where Mito and Tsuande's mother both get pregnant at the age of 9? Because that is the only way that Tusnade can be born, and Hashirama is in his 20's and the village is formed 60 years ago. One or more of the stipulations is incorrect and Jiraiya tells us Tsunade is in her 50's. So Hashirama can't be in his 20's when the village was founded or the village wasn't founded 60 years ago or both points are invalid. So which is it?
    Spoiler: Here show


    Spoiler: And here show


    The timeline isn't vague. If it was merely vague, then there wouldn't be as many issues with it as there currently is. I'm guessing they were 20 because not much time appeared to have pass from when they were children dreaming it up to when they finally joined together. And what is exactly wrong with Tsunade being born a year later? Aside from the fact that Hashirama was shown being alive for some time after the founding of the village, her being born after his death doesn't mean much as long as she was conceived before it. Again, I'm not understanding the math you're trying to employ. Hashirama having a child in his early teens, who then has a child in their early teens works just fine. And there's nothing biologically impossible about such a act. You may no be aware of this, but being married and having children in one's early teens was pretty common during the past ages like a feudal era. In fact, it wasn't until in the last century that people began having children later in life and even then there are still places where "people" have preteen wives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Oh I'll give you 3-5 years younger. But Danzou is not of Izuna's generation, he's the next generation. You still expect Danzo to have black hair when he's 90. I don't think so. Once again it's physically impossible for Izuna to be Tobi, not when the oldest closest person to Izuna has stark white hair.
    I would say it was a bigger difference then that. Danzo would be Izuna's generation, since he and Sarutobi were only a few years younger. And since Izuna wouldn't be 90, your example is moot. As repeatedly mentioned, he would be in his 70-80's, same age as Danzo was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    We don't know who Kisame saw while manipulating Yagura. We don't know when Obito controlled Yagura and for how long it went. It just shows him being manipulated but not when. Once again you focus on wars but don't show any paradoxes. You don't show any dates. Why? Because there aren't any. We don't know when Yahiko dies so how can you claim that the timeline has been altereed when Kishi doesn't give us any dates for his death. Obito and Yahiko could easily have met. There's no problem that needs fixing
    It was implied as Obito, which is the entire problem. And Yagura's control was suppose to have been during the Bloody Mist era, which was before Naruto's birth. And Yagura had to be dead by then, since the Sanbi was then placed in Rin, again before Naruto's birth. Um, we outright know the Bloody Mist and such was +13 years ago thanks to Zabuza. And I already pointed out that we were given dates involving the Second and Third World War via Sasori and his childhood, with the Second World war happening before he was 5 and the Third World War happening when he was 15, 20 years before the start of Part Two. And we know that the events surrounding Obito and Madara happen within a two years time, from when Kakashi turnt 13 the day he "died" to the night of Naruto's birth when he was 15 years old, 15 years ago from the present day. Like I said before, the problem isn't that Kishi has been vague, it's because he hasn't been vague.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Why doesn't he need them? He can't he do it by himself He doesn't have enough chakra to pull a bijuu from a Jinchuuriki all by himself. Most of the other Jinchuuriki were males so Tobi couldn't sit aorund and wait for them to have babies. That's why he needed the others. Obito was a genin. He doesn't have the contacts and resources to form an organization overnight. It would take time to build those connections with the darker elements of society. 15 years is an adequate time to form the Akatsuki, no 50 years for Izuna. How else are you going to have Obito to take up Madara's charge of revenge, put it in a book? The two had to meet to link both timelines.
    Um, yes, he could have done it all himself. The only reason there was a need for multiple extractors was to speed up the extraction to just a few days, which is moot when Obito had a decade of free time to do it. Also, the whole "waiting a long time" comment he made towards Kushina clearly would have made more sense coming from Izuna then Obito. And you mean the organization that he used Yahiko to make? Again, that left him with a decade of free time, especially since Akatsuki was already around for longer then ten years ago, which was when Orochimaru left it. So we're still back at the main issue, of Obito not doing anything for the majority of time. And you don't see the problem with Madara just waiting around til someone randomly appears to take over his goal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes it does. That's was Nagato's diatribe to Naruto was all about. As long as people love and want to protect people the cycle of hate persists because they will take revenge for their loved ones. The Mist village wanted to destroy the Leaf village so they take Rin and implant her with the 3-tails. Why? Because they wanted to get at Kakashi? No, they want to destroy the village for strategic advantages and settle old scores. The reason for her death was the cycle of hate.
    No, you're missing the key issue, which is that the cycle is about revenge. Kiri's actions weren't about revenge, therefore it wasn't apart of the cycle. I have no idea where you got the "old scores" claim from since such a thing was never said and we haven't seen any events where Kiri would want revenge for. It was made clear that Kiri had been separate from events involving the other villages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Was a date given when it happened? No. You're trying to isolate this event before Naruto's birth but there isn't anything preventing the meeting between Obito and Yahiko from occuring afterwards. The real queston is was Yahilo alive 16 years ago. We know that Yahiko died but we don't know the exact time when he did. They could be having a bad hair day, or even a bad panel day. There is nothing telling us how old they were when they met.
    Um, did I not just mention the date? And Nagato himself mentioned that Yahiko was killed while Konoha was fighting Iwa, Suna, and Ame, during the Third World War, which was before Naruto's birth. Kakashi was 15 years old then, and had just turnt 13 years old when Obito "died", near the end of the Third World War. Also, we were told Yahiko and co were young adults when he died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Sure it does. Kakashi met his dad so his dad could tell him to stop faulting himself for what happened. That doesn't mean he's over the tragedy itself. Just because you've stopped feeling guilty over their deaths doesn't mean Kakashi has moved on. Those are two separate events. He may have stoppped blaming himself but he clearly needs this battle with Obito to move on. Kishi doesn't think so and that's why Obito and Kakashi are fighting, because Kakashi needed this.
    What? The entire reason Kakashi felt guilty was because he couldn't save Obito, and his father helped him with that. Kakashi no longer had any reason to feel guilty over Obito's death once he let go that it wasn't his fault. So he had already gotten over it. And no, Kishi bring in Obito to create more drama does not mean that Kakashi needed this, especially when all it has done is make his character regress. Nothing new can be achieved out of this, at best it'll merely put Kakashi right back to where he was, which isn't growth at all.

  7. #81
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It wasn't a civil war, which is the point. It wasn't two sides fighting against one another, it was one side killing the other without opposition.
    Reread your history books. It was an overthrow of the monarchy followed by a splintering of the revolutionary groups which led to infighitng and bloodshed that lasted for years. It's a revolution that broke down into civil war afterwards, which is not uncommon.

    Quote Quote:
    Since Naruto's goal was never about turning Sasuke into a "choir boy" but simply getting him to return to Team Seven and Konoha, the point remains the same. And Gaara spoke to everyone, doing exactly what Naruto does. Naruto granting the cloak to everyone had nothing to do with "bridging" the gap. There wasn't any gap at that point, they were completely united to the point of being willing to sacrifice themselves all for Naruto.
    No, it's not. Naruto went to bring Sasuke back to the village. The problem is that Sasuke changed during the process of his ordeal and now the two can't relate like they used to. To change this Naruto needs to understand the other which is problematic on many levels. The same is true for the Shinobi Alliance. They aren't going to change overnight. A pleading story to save Gaara's freind isn't enough to break the cycle of hate. It may unite them against a common foe but the system isn't free yet. That's Naruto's job.

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    They were rarely around. It wasn't until modern times that they became commonplace in warfare. It's a meaningless emulation if it goes against previous examples and still ends up just the same.
    Once again, more reading. All the tactics today have evolved from studying the history of past battles going back throusands of years-if not outright taken from the annals of history. All the movements listed have been around for hundres-thousands of years.

    Quote Quote:
    Again, it has nothing to do with what I don't like. It has everything to do with what Kishi himself had previously set as the preconditions for war. Him completely negating his own logic is not something I should just accept just because, especially since he didn't accomplish what he had been setting up. This war was suppose to be Naruto's testing point, the situation where Naruto faced the terrors of war like his predecessors and came through better for it. Instead, there hasn't been anything to push him or cause him to develop as a person.
    He's not negating his own logic. War warped Nagato considering he's had several of them. Was he this warped after 48 hours? No, he was not. Even after losing several comrades he wasn't as jaded as he is now. It tooks several years and wars to get to that point. This whole segment of this debate is how Kishi's didn't meet certain reader's expectations. All of the things you cited in this segment of this debate were met by Kishi. You may not have felt the tension, you may have thought the sacrifice was insufficient, you may have thoiught people weren't frozen in their boots at the sight of the first fallen comrades, but all of your grievances were addressed by Kishi. So the issue isn't Kishi, it's the viewers who have grandiose visions for what a war is outside the medium we are currently reading.

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    I already gave you the list: the Ame orphans, Itachi, Kakashi, and Mifune. This is not the first war we have witness, it's the third. Maybe that's the problem, that you have forgotten that we directly witness events in both the Suna/Oto invasion and the Third World War. Because it makes no sense for you to say we don't know the effects of war when it's been the key points to several character. I mean, heck, Itachi's entire character is based off of the carnage he saw during the war. And I shouldn't even have to mention Kakashi and his own character change that happen during a single day. Really, there's no way you can simply disregard the numerous examples of development during wartime. Nor can you just write off the Ame orphans simply because they are currently dead, since that in no way negates the fact that we directly saw them change during the events of the Second World War.
    Yeah, you did and they're still dead. How was Itachi impacted by the war? He was in one but how was he affected by it. Nothing is given. All he wants to do is save his brother from retribution. Sure, Kakashi was in a war but was he affected by the war itself? No, he was impacted by the death of Obito. Was it on the frontlines? No, it was a remote bridge. The same scenario could have played out in an A-ranked mission. How was Kakashi impacted more by Obito's death than Shikamaru's for Asuma's? Because it happened during a "war" instead of an A-ranked mission? Was the Sand/Sound surprise attack a war? it lasted less than 5 hours. If you're calling THAT a war then you're a hypocrite for not calling the current struggle a war. It was a battle but a war is stretching it. The third war was shown? Where? Who was fighting whom. We saw the Kakashi Gaiden arc. One remote scenario amongst an entire world war. That's not seeing a war unfold, we had a snaprshot of 1 event. The only one you have is Mifune who would die to save his comrades in the face of overwhelming odds, and after a significant point of time solidified his resolve to fight Hanzou again. He wasn't changed overnight.

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    How is it speculation when we were told that not only was Oto just recently formed, but literally knew it wasn't much more then a hideout for Orochimaru to do his experiments. It's not as if they were an actual village going off on missions or protecting their nation. Yeah, their free of the cycle of hatred now. As mentioned before, there is no cycle of hatred if there's no one wanting revenge. Someone merely dying doesn't fuel the cycle, nor is it a never ending cycle of repetition.
    Sure it was new, but did Orochimaru use and sand ninjas as guinea pigs like he did the Leaf? It's an unknown. Many things are unknown. You're not really free of the cycle of hate if it comes right back after the fall of the next shinobi. That's why they're in their little Catch-22. That's why they can't escape it.

    Quote Quote:
    Really? So Ibiki and his troops awaiting for the attack is them knowing jack? They knew the attack was coming and was prepared for it as mentioned. And their forces weren't spread across the border. I believe you mean wall, and that really doesn't change the original point. And no, there was no routing. Konoha's counterattack began as soon as the attack began, and Oto and Suna didn't retreat til Orochimaru retreated.
    They were expecting something and they positioned themselves for an assault. I'm not debating that point. They didn't know who and they didn't know when, they didn't know where and they didn't know Gaara was the center of it all. All you cite is a scout seeing an invading force. Well unfortunately, that's after the fact. The trap had already sprung. You had ANBU patrolling outside the city limits where the sand and sound ninjas were hding. They were spread outside the village proper they all weren't inside the village. You saw the forces outside the stadium being routed by Konoha's Will of Fire well before well before Orochimaru left the scene.

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    Really? So you're just gonna ignore that those fights were necessary for Ichigo to master his hollow side, the same hollow that he eventually had to face. That logic doesn't even make sense. By your own reasoning, this war is pointless and Kishi should have just skipped to the fight with Naruto...
    Absolutely. Was Ichigo's full Hollow form essential for the defeat of Aizen? No, it wasn't. Ichigo mastered his Hollow side with the training he did with the other exiled Shinigami in Kakakura town. He did the training before he even went to Hueco Mundo. Then he trains again in the spirit tunnel to learn his final sword attack and THAT attack allows him to defeat Aizen. Everything in Heuco Mundo was a waste or trees. A pretty waste, but a waste nonetheless.

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    How did I forget it? Danzo flashback happen (long) after Tobidama had been revived by Orochimaru, so again we're right back at my point. And no, it wouldn't have similar weight, considering a major theme has been about brotherly bonds, especially on the Uchiha side of things.
    Because Tobriama actually does something during the timeline. Ressurecting the dead doesn't establish you into the storyline unless you were introduced earlier, that's why I didn't menition the earlier Edo Tensei. Tobriama did somehting years ago and that puts him in the timeline. Izuna is mentioned in a flashback, but he does nothing. You see a panel with a Uchiha with no eyes and the next time you see him, he's dead. Did Izuna do anything? No, he's just a footnote, a placekeeper as to why Madara got the MS. If he actually did something during Tobi's flashback on the founding of the village then you could claim he was established into the storyline, but he wasn't. That's the difference between the two.

    Quote Quote:
    Spoiler: Here show


    Spoiler: And here show
    And where is this in the manga? Oh, it isn't. You had to goto a databook because the manga doesn't tell us when the village was founded. It was only formed after over 80 years ago. The amount of taken to found the village from the warring nomadic factions is never given.

    Quote Quote:
    The timeline isn't vague. If it was merely vague, then there wouldn't be as many issues with it as there currently is. I'm guessing they were 20 because not much time appeared to have pass from when they were children dreaming it up to when they finally joined together. And what is exactly wrong with Tsunade being born a year later? Aside from the fact that Hashirama was shown being alive for some time after the founding of the village, her being born after his death doesn't mean much as long as she was conceived before it. Again, I'm not understanding the math you're trying to employ. Hashirama having a child in his early teens, who then has a child in their early teens works just fine. And there's nothing biologically impossible about such a act. You may no be aware of this, but being married and having children in one's early teens was pretty common during the past ages like a feudal era. In fact, it wasn't until in the last century that people began having children later in life and even then there are still places where "people" have preteen wives.
    The only problem is that Tsunade is born while Hashirama is alive, he knows her. The problem with preteens having childen isn't the problem, the problem is children having children. The issue is that Tsunade is Hashirama's granddaughter. She's two generations removed. So for every year that passed for Mito and tsunade mom to concieve Hashirma's age goes up by two years. If Hashirama was 20 when the village was founded that means Mito and TM (Tsunade's mom) would have to have kids at age 10, which means both women had to be pregnant at age 9 which is biologically impossible. If Hashirama was 30 then both Mito and TS had childen at 15 and they got pregnant at 14. If Hashirama was 40 then both Mito and TS had childeren at 20. Mtio and TS having a child at 20 is reasonable. 15 is streching it and 9 is outright impossible. The youngest Hashirama could be is 30 when the village is founded and there no evidence to support that. That puts the earliest that Izuna to be is 85 in the present timeline and I just round that to 90 as a compromise because Izuna could easily be 100.

    Quote Quote:
    I would say it was a bigger difference then that. Danzo would be Izuna's generation, since he and Sarutobi were only a few years younger. And since Izuna wouldn't be 90, your example is moot. As repeatedly mentioned, he would be in his 70-80's, same age as Danzo was.
    If they're fighitng as early as 7 Izuna isn't that's much younger than Madara. Danzou and Sarutobi didn't fight in the nomadic wars, they came later. Danzou is the next generation, not Izuna's. Add another 20 years and Danzou hair won't be black, considering everyone else's hair is grey or white. it's impossible for Tobi to be Izuna. Chronologically and physically.

    Quote Quote:
    It was implied as Obito, which is the entire problem. And Yagura's control was suppose to have been during the Bloody Mist era, which was before Naruto's birth. And Yagura had to be dead by then, since the Sanbi was then placed in Rin, again before Naruto's birth. Um, we outright know the Bloody Mist and such was +13 years ago thanks to Zabuza. And I already pointed out that we were given dates involving the Second and Third World War via Sasori and his childhood, with the Second World war happening before he was 5 and the Third World War happening when he was 15, 20 years before the start of Part Two. And we know that the events surrounding Obito and Madara happen within a two years time, from when Kakashi turnt 13 the day he "died" to the night of Naruto's birth when he was 15 years old, 15 years ago from the present day. Like I said before, the problem isn't that Kishi has been vague, it's because he hasn't been vague.
    You don't know when Yagura became a Jinchuuriki of the 3-tails. It could have happened after Rin was implanted and things ran amock. We don't know. The Bloody Mist Era happened when Zabuza was a kid but that could have been as early as 10 years ago. All Kakashi says is "Long ago, during the blood mist era...". Once again no definitive time point is given. The Blood Mist era could have happened after Rin's death, and Obito could have taken control of Yagura, and Zabuza could have gone on his killing spree. No problem.

    Quote Quote:
    Um, yes, he could have done it all himself. The only reason there was a need for multiple extractors was to speed up the extraction to just a few days, which is moot when Obito had a decade of free time to do it. Also, the whole "waiting a long time" comment he made towards Kushina clearly would have made more sense coming from Izuna then Obito. And you mean the organization that he used Yahiko to make? Again, that left him with a decade of free time, especially since Akatsuki was already around for longer then ten years ago, which was when Orochimaru left it. So we're still back at the main issue, of Obito not doing anything for the majority of time. And you don't see the problem with Madara just waiting around til someone randomly appears to take over his goal?
    I'm sorry where does it say in the manga that 1 person can extract a bijuui by themselves? It takes a lot of chakra spread out over several strong individuals Because if Obito could do it in 15 years why the hell couldn't Izuna do it in 50 years? You're so angry at Obito being Tobi that you don't realize that Izuna's case is outright pathetic. You can explain Obito taking a few years to learn his new abilites, and gathering a few recruits. How big was Akastuki when Orochimaru joined/left? Kakuzu was the money side of the business. Why would they need money to get Jinchuuriki, becasue they need to find out who they are. it's going to take some time and money for the Akatsuki to identify and track down all the bijuus. That and the fact you need Naruto to grow to a point where he can defend himself explains 15 years. However, that doesn't explain's Izuna's MIA of 50 years though.

    Quote Quote:
    No, you're missing the key issue, which is that the cycle is about revenge. Kiri's actions weren't about revenge, therefore it wasn't apart of the cycle. I have no idea where you got the "old scores" claim from since such a thing was never said and we haven't seen any events where Kiri would want revenge for. It was made clear that Kiri had been separate from events involving the other villages.
    You don't know the motvations behind the Mist strategy to destroy the Leaf-for kicks? It could have been for previous trangressions, hence the cycle of hate.

    Quote Quote:
    Um, did I not just mention the date? And Nagato himself mentioned that Yahiko was killed while Konoha was fighting Iwa, Suna, and Ame, during the Third World War, which was before Naruto's birth. Kakashi was 15 years old then, and had just turnt 13 years old when Obito "died", near the end of the Third World War. Also, we were told Yahiko and co were young adults when he died.
    You gave ranges, but no dates since none are provided. We don't even know how long the 3rd Great Shinobi war lasted it was several years. The final war stopped 3 years after Naruto's birth when the Cloud and Fire declared peace. Obito could have died and several years passed before Yahiko does. There is nothing preventing from Obito becoming Tobi then a few years passes until he meets Yahiko who could easily been alive. You're trying to box in Yahiko's death into a certain timeframe so you can declare a plothole when no such evidence exists.

    Quote Quote:
    What? The entire reason Kakashi felt guilty was because he couldn't save Obito, and his father helped him with that. Kakashi no longer had any reason to feel guilty over Obito's death once he let go that it wasn't his fault. So he had already gotten over it. And no, Kishi bring in Obito to create more drama does not mean that Kakashi needed this, especially when all it has done is make his character regress. Nothing new can be achieved out of this, at best it'll merely put Kakashi right back to where he was, which isn't growth at all.
    He may have stopped feeling guilty, but Kishi disagrees with you about being over it. He shows that Kakashi isn't over the death and memory of Obito. So clearly your assumption was wrong and Kakashi does need Tobi to be Obtio for further development.

  8. #82
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member xaither's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by winterwyrm View Post
    If you want an alternative storyline, in Naruto SD, sasuke just goes firestorm on konoha instead of all that happening.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE0cNTLP8LY

    Please enjoy!
    why didn't naruto do anything ? when sasuke is even pulling out new jutsu and stuff.

  9. #83
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Reread your history books. It was an overthrow of the monarchy followed by a splintering of the revolutionary groups which led to infighitng and bloodshed that lasted for years. It's a revolution that broke down into civil war afterwards, which is not uncommon.
    I have never read anything about it being referred to a civil war. Even checking wikipedia, I don't see any mention of civil war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No, it's not. Naruto went to bring Sasuke back to the village. The problem is that Sasuke changed during the process of his ordeal and now the two can't relate like they used to. To change this Naruto needs to understand the other which is problematic on many levels. The same is true for the Shinobi Alliance. They aren't going to change overnight. A pleading story to save Gaara's freind isn't enough to break the cycle of hate. It may unite them against a common foe but the system isn't free yet. That's Naruto's job.
    What are you talking about? Naruto and Sasuke couldn't relate before, but thanks to the events involving Pain, he now understands Sasuke's position. Anyway, they did change overnight, or actually within a few minutes. Them no longer wanting to avenge the death of their loved ones is the cycle being broken. Again, the cycle of hatred is a cycle of one side attempting to get revenge on another and then that side attempting to get revenge for that previous act, over and over again. Gaara talking them out of wanting revenge is the ending of that cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Once again, more reading. All the tactics today have evolved from studying the history of past battles going back throusands of years-if not outright taken from the annals of history. All the movements listed have been around for hundres-thousands of years.
    Which in no way counters what I said about them being rarely used until the modern era.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    He's not negating his own logic. War warped Nagato considering he's had several of them. Was he this warped after 48 hours? No, he was not. Even after losing several comrades he wasn't as jaded as he is now. It tooks several years and wars to get to that point. This whole segment of this debate is how Kishi's didn't meet certain reader's expectations. All of the things you cited in this segment of this debate were met by Kishi. You may not have felt the tension, you may have thought the sacrifice was insufficient, you may have thoiught people weren't frozen in their boots at the sight of the first fallen comrades, but all of your grievances were addressed by Kishi. So the issue isn't Kishi, it's the viewers who have grandiose visions for what a war is outside the medium we are currently reading.
    He is negating his own logic. As mentioned, this war was suppose to be Naruto's testing point just like his predecessors had went through. Nagato became dedicated to bring peace after the dead of Chibi, and then abandoned that path after the death of Yahiko. Two events with immediate effects. So your attempt to claim that a bunch of time is needed to see any effect just doesn't work. And yes, this debate is about how Kishi didn't meet the expectations he himself gave us. There's nothing grandiose about believing Kishi would display this war like previously shown wars or making it live up to the hype he set forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yeah, you did and they're still dead. How was Itachi impacted by the war? He was in one but how was he affected by it. Nothing is given. All he wants to do is save his brother from retribution. Sure, Kakashi was in a war but was he affected by the war itself? No, he was impacted by the death of Obito. Was it on the frontlines? No, it was a remote bridge. The same scenario could have played out in an A-ranked mission. How was Kakashi impacted more by Obito's death than Shikamaru's for Asuma's? Because it happened during a "war" instead of an A-ranked mission? Was the Sand/Sound surprise attack a war? it lasted less than 5 hours. If you're calling THAT a war then you're a hypocrite for not calling the current struggle a war. It was a battle but a war is stretching it. The third war was shown? Where? Who was fighting whom. We saw the Kakashi Gaiden arc. One remote scenario amongst an entire world war. That's not seeing a war unfold, we had a snaprshot of 1 event. The only one you have is Mifune who would die to save his comrades in the face of overwhelming odds, and after a significant point of time solidified his resolve to fight Hanzou again. He wasn't changed overnight.
    Them being dead changes nothing, don't know why you're trying to make it do so. What do you mean nothing was given? Itachi's experience in war was what made him so dedicated to peace. And it was Obito's words during that wartime that changed Kakashi. Just because it could have happen outside of war doesn't change that it happen or the point that it should be happening now with someone or another.

    Aside from it not being a surprise attack, there's nothing hypocritical about it. Pretty sure no one complained about the "length" of the war or said that was a problem. The lack of development in the current situation is the complaint, something the Suna/Oto invasion wasn't lacking. It had major effects upon the characters: Naruto defined his belief, Sasuke develop more humanity, Gaara changed from a psychopath and became more caring towards his siblings. And in addition to Kakashi's actions in the Third World War, we also had Minato's side, events with the Ame orphans that lead to Nagato losing hope, and the previously mentioned scene with Itachi. And Mifune had his moment against Hanzou during the war, long before their rematch. I'm not even sure where you got this resolve thing from, since Mifune had no issue challenging Hanzou again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Sure it was new, but did Orochimaru use and sand ninjas as guinea pigs like he did the Leaf? It's an unknown. Many things are unknown. You're not really free of the cycle of hate if it comes right back after the fall of the next shinobi. That's why they're in their little Catch-22. That's why they can't escape it.
    That's unlikely without anything to even hint towards it. Orochimaru didn't even take ninjas once he got ousted in Konoha. And you are free if you're willing not to seek revenge or allowed to. It's not really a catch-22 when it can be easily avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    They were expecting something and they positioned themselves for an assault. I'm not debating that point. They didn't know who and they didn't know when, they didn't know where and they didn't know Gaara was the center of it all. All you cite is a scout seeing an invading force. Well unfortunately, that's after the fact. The trap had already sprung. You had ANBU patrolling outside the city limits where the sand and sound ninjas were hding. They were spread outside the village proper they all weren't inside the village. You saw the forces outside the stadium being routed by Konoha's Will of Fire well before well before Orochimaru left the scene.
    They were expecting Suna to attack, as Ibiki shows. Them not knowing every single detail doesn't change that they still knew the attack was coming and they were prepared for it. The "scout" reported to a troop of ninjas awaiting an attack. Them being alerted when the attack actually happened doesn't change anything. And no, there was no routing before Orochimaru's retreat. There was equal fighting, but Konoha was hardly appearing as the winners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Absolutely. Was Ichigo's full Hollow form essential for the defeat of Aizen? No, it wasn't. Ichigo mastered his Hollow side with the training he did with the other exiled Shinigami in Kakakura town. He did the training before he even went to Hueco Mundo. Then he trains again in the spirit tunnel to learn his final sword attack and THAT attack allows him to defeat Aizen. Everything in Heuco Mundo was a waste or trees. A pretty waste, but a waste nonetheless.
    Yeah it was. His previous training with the other Vizards was a noted failure, and it was only after the fights in Hueco Mundo that he actually mastered it. It was that form that he had to face to learn the final technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Because Tobriama actually does something during the timeline. Ressurecting the dead doesn't establish you into the storyline unless you were introduced earlier, that's why I didn't menition the earlier Edo Tensei. Tobriama did somehting years ago and that puts him in the timeline. Izuna is mentioned in a flashback, but he does nothing. You see a panel with a Uchiha with no eyes and the next time you see him, he's dead. Did Izuna do anything? No, he's just a footnote, a placekeeper as to why Madara got the MS. If he actually did something during Tobi's flashback on the founding of the village then you could claim he was established into the storyline, but he wasn't. That's the difference between the two.
    What was he shown doing before that point? Nothing, so again, your point fails. Fact remains that Tobirama, or the others, didn't gain major roles til they were revived. Claiming Izuna needs it makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And where is this in the manga? Oh, it isn't. You had to goto a databook because the manga doesn't tell us when the village was founded. It was only formed after over 80 years ago. The amount of taken to found the village from the warring nomadic factions is never given.
    So, the databooks were written by Kishi himself, making they a usable source. And two different books establish that it was sixty years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    The only problem is that Tsunade is born while Hashirama is alive, he knows her. The problem with preteens having childen isn't the problem, the problem is children having children. The issue is that Tsunade is Hashirama's granddaughter. She's two generations removed. So for every year that passed for Mito and tsunade mom to concieve Hashirma's age goes up by two years. If Hashirama was 20 when the village was founded that means Mito and TM (Tsunade's mom) would have to have kids at age 10, which means both women had to be pregnant at age 9 which is biologically impossible. If Hashirama was 30 then both Mito and TS had childen at 15 and they got pregnant at 14. If Hashirama was 40 then both Mito and TS had childeren at 20. Mtio and TS having a child at 20 is reasonable. 15 is streching it and 9 is outright impossible. The youngest Hashirama could be is 30 when the village is founded and there no evidence to support that. That puts the earliest that Izuna to be is 85 in the present timeline and I just round that to 90 as a compromise because Izuna could easily be 100.
    Once again, your math is confusing. Why are you counting Mito below him, when she was his wife and presumably the same age? If Hashirama and Mito were in their 20's, that would place their child in their 10's, and thus Tsunade at 0. Now considering Tsunade was known as a toddler, there's no issue. Once again, that's not biologically impossible nor would Izuna be that old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    If they're fighitng as early as 7 Izuna isn't that's much younger than Madara. Danzou and Sarutobi didn't fight in the nomadic wars, they came later. Danzou is the next generation, not Izuna's. Add another 20 years and Danzou hair won't be black, considering everyone else's hair is grey or white. it's impossible for Tobi to be Izuna. Chronologically and physically.
    Madara would have been around 12, going by the difference we've seen between the Rookies and Konoha's group. And Sarutobi and Danzo were in their teens upon the early years of the village. They would be within the same generation. And since there isn't a 20 year differences, that's moot. Not to mention everyone else is already grey, despite being the same age as Danzo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You don't know when Yagura became a Jinchuuriki of the 3-tails. It could have happened after Rin was implanted and things ran amock. We don't know. The Bloody Mist Era happened when Zabuza was a kid but that could have been as early as 10 years ago. All Kakashi says is "Long ago, during the blood mist era...". Once again no definitive time point is given. The Blood Mist era could have happened after Rin's death, and Obito could have taken control of Yagura, and Zabuza could have gone on his killing spree. No problem.
    Yagura was Mizukage during the Bloody Mist era, and Mei directly mentions how it's been a long time since his reign and how they were in the old days. Combined with Kakashi's words, and that puts it 13+ years ago. Aside from the fact that it takes time for a Bijuu to be reborn in the world, and thus would have taken some years for Kiri to even get the Sanbi back after Rin's death, it would have also taken time for the Sanibi to be implanted in Yagura and for him to master it to the point of becoming known for it before his death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I'm sorry where does it say in the manga that 1 person can extract a bijuui by themselves? It takes a lot of chakra spread out over several strong individuals Because if Obito could do it in 15 years why the hell couldn't Izuna do it in 50 years? You're so angry at Obito being Tobi that you don't realize that Izuna's case is outright pathetic. You can explain Obito taking a few years to learn his new abilites, and gathering a few recruits. How big was Akastuki when Orochimaru joined/left? Kakuzu was the money side of the business. Why would they need money to get Jinchuuriki, becasue they need to find out who they are. it's going to take some time and money for the Akatsuki to identify and track down all the bijuus. That and the fact you need Naruto to grow to a point where he can defend himself explains 15 years. However, that doesn't explain's Izuna's MIA of 50 years though.
    Again, multiple ninjas are only required to speed up the process. The less there are, the longer it takes. And no, Izuna's case wouldn't be pathetic due to him presumably being far to weak to act overt and thus explains why he had to act from the shadows. Throw in having to wait for the right agent, Nagato, to fulfill the plan and it's just fine. There's no excuse for Obito when it's shown that he's plenty strong and was simply holding back for no logical reason. Given that he clearly had no intention of allowing Madara to be apart of the plan, he had no reaosn to manipulate Nagato. How big? Had eleven members according to Onoki. Kakuzu's money had nothing to do with finding the Jinchuuriki. It was directly mentioned that most of the Jinchuuriki were unloved by their villages, and that the first two were simply handed over to Akatsuki. Then there's the several Jicnhuuriki that weren't even in their villages. Point is, there was no reason for them to spend money trying to find them, especially when it was apparently common for the Jinchuuriki to be related to the Kage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You don't know the motvations behind the Mist strategy to destroy the Leaf-for kicks? It could have been for previous trangressions, hence the cycle of hate.
    Or simply for more power. But seeing as Kiri was noted for it's isolated nature, acting because of some past transgression is highly unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You gave ranges, but no dates since none are provided. We don't even know how long the 3rd Great Shinobi war lasted it was several years. The final war stopped 3 years after Naruto's birth when the Cloud and Fire declared peace. Obito could have died and several years passed before Yahiko does. There is nothing preventing from Obito becoming Tobi then a few years passes until he meets Yahiko who could easily been alive. You're trying to box in Yahiko's death into a certain timeframe so you can declare a plothole when no such evidence exists.
    Not knowing the exact day it began in no way changes that we know the year or so it began and such. It was suppose to have ended shortly before Minato became Hokage... The war with Kumo was a separate war, not part of the Third World War. Regardless, Yahiko was mentioned to have died during the Third World War, making your claim that it's not a plothole moot. Yahiko and co were quite younger when Obito approached them, despite Obito supposedly "dying" towards the end of the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    He may have stopped feeling guilty, but Kishi disagrees with you about being over it. He shows that Kakashi isn't over the death and memory of Obito. So clearly your assumption was wrong and Kakashi does need Tobi to be Obtio for further development.
    A retcon changing things doesn't make me wrong, especially since as mentioned, Kakashi hasn't gained any development from these events.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I have never read anything about it being referred to a civil war. Even checking wikipedia, I don't see any mention of civil war.
    Then you need to read more than the narcissicistic writings of Wikipedia. After the fall of the monarchy various poiltical groups vied for power in the power vacuum accusing other parties as of enemies of the state. They used the guillotine instead of pitched battles to remove thier enemies between rival political parties is civil war.

    Quote Quote:
    What are you talking about? Naruto and Sasuke couldn't relate before, but thanks to the events involving Pain, he now understands Sasuke's position. Anyway, they did change overnight, or actually within a few minutes. Them no longer wanting to avenge the death of their loved ones is the cycle being broken. Again, the cycle of hatred is a cycle of one side attempting to get revenge on another and then that side attempting to get revenge for that previous act, over and over again. Gaara talking them out of wanting revenge is the ending of that cycle.
    A few fodder ninja doesn't mean the whole army has found enlightenment. It was positioned so that Gaara's speech inspired the troops. If a speech about saving the a friend frees everyone of hate for all of humanity, then why is Naruto going to be the one to free the system of hate. Unless they aren't free of the cycle of hate.

    Quote Quote:
    Which in no way counters what I said about them being rarely used until the modern era.
    Every military tactics book tells us you're full of ignorance. Unless it involves airplanes, nukes, or paratroopers it all happened eons ago. Sorry, but you're completely wrong on this one.

    Quote Quote:
    He is negating his own logic. As mentioned, this war was suppose to be Naruto's testing point just like his predecessors had went through. Nagato became dedicated to bring peace after the dead of Chibi, and then abandoned that path after the death of Yahiko. Two events with immediate effects. So your attempt to claim that a bunch of time is needed to see any effect just doesn't work. And yes, this debate is about how Kishi didn't meet the expectations he himself gave us. There's nothing grandiose about believing Kishi would display this war like previously shown wars or making it live up to the hype he set forth.
    No, he's not. You're taking two events that happened years apart disregarding all the events/battles/deaths/wars that transpire between them and say the shinobi alliance should behave the same. Well it hasn't been years, it's been 48 hours. People are different, conditions are different, the series of events are different so why should they behave the same? Hell, Kakashi lost Rin and Obito in a war but did he go postal and try to destroy the world under the yoke of fear and intimidation? No, he didn't so just because you're in a war doesn't mean you get changed by it instantaneously.

    Quote Quote:
    Them being dead changes nothing, don't know why you're trying to make it do so. What do you mean nothing was given? Itachi's experience in war was what made him so dedicated to peace. And it was Obito's words during that wartime that changed Kakashi. Just because it could have happen outside of war doesn't change that it happen or the point that it should be happening now with someone or another.
    It has everything to show how war effects people. How was Konan affected by all the wars? No clue, she's dead. Aside from stopping war how was Yahiko was affected by the wars? No clue, he's dead. Nagato is really the only one we see impacted through a series of flashbacks which lead to his reasoning but aside from that, there's not much else. Having Obito giving motivations for Itachi is one-step removed from the source but the primary reason for what Itachi does is for Sasuke, even Obito says that much. It clearly doesn't show how Itachi was changed by going through this war, he was 4 years old. We have no clue what he was like before that. If Obito had made it out alive do you think Kakashi would still go to the memorial stone? No, his death is what changed Kakashi along with Obito's words, but the war did nothing.

    Quote Quote:
    Aside from it not being a surprise attack, there's nothing hypocritical about it. Pretty sure no one complained about the "length" of the war or said that was a problem. The lack of development in the current situation is the complaint, something the Suna/Oto invasion wasn't lacking. It had major effects upon the characters: Naruto defined his belief, Sasuke develop more humanity, Gaara changed from a psychopath and became more caring towards his siblings. And in addition to Kakashi's actions in the Third World War, we also had Minato's side, events with the Ame orphans that lead to Nagato losing hope, and the previously mentioned scene with Itachi. And Mifune had his moment against Hanzou during the war, long before their rematch. I'm not even sure where you got this resolve thing from, since Mifune had no issue challenging Hanzou again.
    Are you frigging serious? War is about battle, not character development. If it was true (thankfully, it's not) then the prelims to the chuunin exams was the greatest war of all time! The 1st and 2nd Shinobi wars didn't happen because we have no character development? That's not how it works. You and others have been using the wrong measuring stick to evaluate this war, then tout that the current struggle isn't a war because you're looking at it incorrrectly. Character development is inconsequential as to whether a fight is a war, battle, skirmish, feud, or scuffle. It may make it more enjoyable to read but has zero relevance if the battle is a war or not. So yes, you're a hypocrite if you stil contend that the Sand attack is a war while the current battle is not. Plain and simple.

    Quote Quote:
    That's unlikely without anything to even hint towards it. Orochimaru didn't even take ninjas once he got ousted in Konoha. And you are free if you're willing not to seek revenge or allowed to. It's not really a catch-22 when it can be easily avoided.
    Obviously it's not since they've had 3 wars in 60 years. All it takes is 1 person to fall and ithey're caught up in it again. They haven't found a solution yet and Gaara's little pep talk didn't do it either.

    Quote Quote:
    hey were expecting Suna to attack, as Ibiki shows. Them not knowing every single detail doesn't change that they still knew the attack was coming and they were prepared for it. The "scout" reported to a troop of ninjas awaiting an attack. Them being alerted when the attack actually happened doesn't change anything. And no, there was no routing before Orochimaru's retreat. There was equal fighting, but Konoha was hardly appearing as the winners.
    The debate isn't whether an attack was coming or not. They positioned themselves defenseively since they didn't know whom, where, when or how. Well the Sound snake didn't look all that good after Jiraya's toad sat on it, and every panel after the signal to counterattack was given shows the Leaf winning. Yes, they were routing the enemy.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah it was. His previous training with the other Vizards was a noted failure, and it was only after the fights in Hueco Mundo that he actually mastered it. It was that form that he had to face to learn the final technique.
    Nope, not at all. His Hollow form didn't defeat Aizen his Shinigami (Quincy) powers did.

    Quote Quote:
    What was he shown doing before that point? Nothing, so again, your point fails. Fact remains that Tobirama, or the others, didn't gain major roles til they were revived. Claiming Izuna needs it makes no sense.
    Yes, he was. And 1 time is better than not time which is what Izuna was.

    Quote Quote:
    So, the databooks were written by Kishi himself, making they a usable source. And two different books establish that it was sixty years ago.
    And it's secondary material, not primary. Kishi never tells us when the village was formed in the manga. Only that it happened less than 80 years ago. Even the notion of the village being formed 60 years ago is suspect because the manga never tells us when it actually happened. It could have been 70 years ago. Or 40 years ago. You can't build a chronological argument if you don't even have the starting point correct.

    Quote Quote:
    Once again, your math is confusing. Why are you counting Mito below him, when she was his wife and presumably the same age? If Hashirama and Mito were in their 20's, that would place their child in their 10's, and thus Tsunade at 0. Now considering Tsunade was known as a toddler, there's no issue. Once again, that's not biologically impossible nor would Izuna be that old.
    I'm not counting Mito below him. I'm keeping them equal. For Hashiramna to be 20, Mito needs to have TM (Tsunade's mom) at age 10, who then is turn has to have Tsunade at age 10 so Tsunade is born 1 year after the founding of the village. So Tsunade is born 1 AV (after village). TM is born in 10 BV(before village) and Mito has to be 10 when TM is born. Of course it's biologically impossible to concieve at 9-years old since pregnancy takes 9 months. So Hashiama has to be older than 20. Let's say Hashrama and Mito are 30. For Tsunade to be born in 1 AV, TM needs to be born in 15 BV (where Mito and Hashirma are 15). 15 is still very young for both women to have kids, even so this scernario puts Hashirama at 90 in the present timeline, making Izuna already 85 if not older. Let's say the women wait until age 20 for both. Tsunade is born in 1 AV, TM is born in 20 BV where Mito and Hashirama are both 20. That puts Hashirama at 100 in the current time line and makes Izuna 95. As the time lengthens Hashirama's age doubles. So Hashirama has to be in his mid-30's at least when the village is founded. It makes sense. Tobi says the story starts over 80 years and when Kishi does the flashback of Hasriirama and Madara, they are in their preteens. 80+ years plus 10 makes 90+ years in the current timeline. So Izuna is around 90, not 70 like you want. Izuna is too old to be Tobi.

    Quote Quote:
    Madara would have been around 12, going by the difference we've seen between the Rookies and Konoha's group. And Sarutobi and Danzo were in their teens upon the early years of the village. They would be within the same generation. And since there isn't a 20 year differences, that's moot. Not to mention everyone else is already grey, despite being the same age as Danzo.
    Not necessarily. Once agian we have no age of Sarutobi. the only info we have is that Sarutobi taught the Sannin when they were roughly 11 around 12 AV (going with the timeline in the above scenario). So if he was 20 when that event happened he was 8 when the village was founded. That puts him 25 years behind Hashirama and 20 behind Izuna which is 1 generation. Danzou isn't going to have black hair in another 20 years, so once again Izuna can't physically be Tobi.

    Quote Quote:
    Yagura was Mizukage during the Bloody Mist era, and Mei directly mentions how it's been a long time since his reign and how they were in the old days. Combined with Kakashi's words, and that puts it 13+ years ago. Aside from the fact that it takes time for a Bijuu to be reborn in the world, and thus would have taken some years for Kiri to even get the Sanbi back after Rin's death, it would have also taken time for the Sanibi to be implanted in Yagura and for him to master it to the point of becoming known for it before his death.
    Long ago is a dimensionless term. You can't quantify it. It could be 2 years ago or 1000 years ago. So Rin died, Yagura becomes a Jinchuuriki. Obito takes control on Yagura, says hello to Kisame, and lets Zabuza have his killing spree. Naruto was made a Jinchuuriki in a matter of minutes with no planning! It doesn't take years. Nor does it take years to catch one after a hosts dies. Bee said it would give "some time" after he killed Naruto to prevent Obito from getting the Kyuubi, it's not years. No plothole.

    Quote Quote:
    Again, multiple ninjas are only required to speed up the process. The less there are, the longer it takes. And no, Izuna's case wouldn't be pathetic due to him presumably being far to weak to act overt and thus explains why he had to act from the shadows. Throw in having to wait for the right agent, Nagato, to fulfill the plan and it's just fine. There's no excuse for Obito when it's shown that he's plenty strong and was simply holding back for no logical reason. Given that he clearly had no intention of allowing Madara to be apart of the plan, he had no reaosn to manipulate Nagato. How big? Had eleven members according to Onoki. Kakuzu's money had nothing to do with finding the Jinchuuriki. It was directly mentioned that most of the Jinchuuriki were unloved by their villages, and that the first two were simply handed over to Akatsuki. Then there's the several Jicnhuuriki that weren't even in their villages. Point is, there was no reason for them to spend money trying to find them, especially when it was apparently common for the Jinchuuriki to be related to the Kage.
    You're going linear to zero when we don't know if that works. You're assuming there isn't a minimum amount of chakra needed to use the Gedo Mazo. For example. If the statue requires 100 units of chakra/hour to work and Obito can only generate 50 units/hour Tobi will never get Gedo Mado to activate. But if you have 3 guys then you have 150 units/hour and can use the statue. We don't know how the extraction process works, only that it does. There is no evidence suggesting that one person can do it. That's speculation on your part. The rest of your argument is pure excrement. Why is Izuna weak and Obito strong if they're supposed to be the same person? Obito was shamelessly weak during the Kakashi gaiden arc. Why does he have to wait 50 years for Nagato when the only requirement is to kill an Uzumaki's parents and pop in some eye-balls. There were 2 prior wars and more Uzumakis back then. There's no need to have events unfurl over 50+ years when you're already bitching that 15 years was way too long for Obito being Tobi to get his act together. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You use the same metric for both scenarios and Izuna's falls flat on his face. There is no logical explaination why Izuna sits around for 50 years before forming the Akatsuki and going after the bijuus since he can do it single-handedly.

    Quote Quote:
    Or simply for more power. But seeing as Kiri was noted for it's isolated nature, acting because of some past transgression is highly unlikely.
    Really? These villages hold grudges. They make not act upon it like in Hinata's abduction, but they don't forget. Vengence is a very likely reason for Rin's tragic scenario.

    Quote Quote:
    Not knowing the exact day it began in no way changes that we know the year or so it began and such. It was suppose to have ended shortly before Minato became Hokage... The war with Kumo was a separate war, not part of the Third World War. Regardless, Yahiko was mentioned to have died during the Third World War, making your claim that it's not a plothole moot. Yahiko and co were quite younger when Obito approached them, despite Obito supposedly "dying" towards the end of the war.
    Who says Obito died at the end of the war? Where does it say that, he could have died at the beginning? You know it happens when Kakashi is 13, but that has no bearing on Yahiko's timeline for when he dies. We don't knwo when the war ends. It could be years before Yahiko dies and well after Obito's death. There two seperate timelimes. You can't connect them and claim plothole.

    Quote Quote:
    A retcon changing things doesn't make me wrong, especially since as mentioned, Kakashi hasn't gained any development from these events.
    It's not a retcon when you have no evidence that Kakashi has moved on. All you have in a conversation with his father and a desire for Tobi not being Obito and giving a reason for Kakaashi to have character development. If you had a scenario after the conversation with Kakashi's father demonstrateing that Kakahi has moved on, then you can claim your retcon. But you don't. So Kishi isn't retconning, and your assuimption is still incorrect.
    Last edited by Brill; July 31, 2013 at 05:53 AM.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Weapon_X's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    One of the most dissapointing things, not the biggest, was Hanzou for me. A guy who was so hyped by Jiraiya just turned out to be some poison user? Really? His fight against Mifune was a total joke to me, this is the guy who foguth against the 3 Sannin and in the 2nd world war and lived to tell the tale, who fought Chiyo multiple times and had a few battles with Nagato. His hype was a total waste and he delivered nothing in the fight against Mifune, I was sorely dissapointed. He was one of the top 5 Edo's I was looking forward to in battle.
    ..: Greatest Doujutsu Prodigies :..

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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon_X View Post
    One of the most dissapointing things, not the biggest, was Hanzou for me. A guy who was so hyped by Jiraiya just turned out to be some poison user? Really? His fight against Mifune was a total joke to me, this is the guy who foguth against the 3 Sannin and in the 2nd world war and lived to tell the tale, who fought Chiyo multiple times and had a few battles with Nagato. His hype was a total waste and he delivered nothing in the fight against Mifune, I was sorely dissapointed. He was one of the top 5 Edo's I was looking forward to in battle.
    May be it's because this fight wasn't ninjutsu vs ninjutsu. Cause IIRC Mifune's speed was what kept him at bay.

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Then you need to read more than the narcissicistic writings of Wikipedia. After the fall of the monarchy various poiltical groups vied for power in the power vacuum accusing other parties as of enemies of the state. They used the guillotine instead of pitched battles to remove thier enemies between rival political parties is civil war.
    It should have been evident by my usage of "even" that wikipedia wasn't the only source I was reading. The various political parties playing for power does not automatically make it a civil war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    A few fodder ninja doesn't mean the whole army has found enlightenment. It was positioned so that Gaara's speech inspired the troops. If a speech about saving the a friend frees everyone of hate for all of humanity, then why is Naruto going to be the one to free the system of hate. Unless they aren't free of the cycle of hate.
    Well given that it was the entire Alliance army that was shown, that's a moot point. Or perhaps it'll be like the situation with Sasuke, where Naruto was being set up to save him yet ended up having no role in his change of heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Every military tactics book tells us you're full of ignorance. Unless it involves airplanes, nukes, or paratroopers it all happened eons ago. Sorry, but you're completely wrong on this one.
    Pretty sure that's not true. Now unless you can name some ancient battles where such tactics were used widespread, and not rarely, I'm quite sure I'm not wrong here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No, he's not. You're taking two events that happened years apart disregarding all the events/battles/deaths/wars that transpire between them and say the shinobi alliance should behave the same. Well it hasn't been years, it's been 48 hours. People are different, conditions are different, the series of events are different so why should they behave the same? Hell, Kakashi lost Rin and Obito in a war but did he go postal and try to destroy the world under the yoke of fear and intimidation? No, he didn't so just because you're in a war doesn't mean you get changed by it instantaneously.
    Yeah, he is. I'm not disregarding anything. Those examples show the change happening imminently afterward, without any other factors playing a role. So your argument about years having to happen simply fail. There wasn't years involved. Yeah, things are different, but since I'm not saying that the changes have to be exactly the same, that's a moot point. And you mention Kakashi, who did get change by the events with Obito. And again with the hyperbole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    It has everything to show how war effects people. How was Konan affected by all the wars? No clue, she's dead. Aside from stopping war how was Yahiko was affected by the wars? No clue, he's dead. Nagato is really the only one we see impacted through a series of flashbacks which lead to his reasoning but aside from that, there's not much else. Having Obito giving motivations for Itachi is one-step removed from the source but the primary reason for what Itachi does is for Sasuke, even Obito says that much. It clearly doesn't show how Itachi was changed by going through this war, he was 4 years old. We have no clue what he was like before that. If Obito had made it out alive do you think Kakashi would still go to the memorial stone? No, his death is what changed Kakashi along with Obito's words, but the war did nothing.
    No clue? You act as if the only thing we've seen of them is them being dead? Are you gonna ignore all the scenes with them being alive? We saw that Konan was affected the same way as Yahiko and Nagato, we saw that Yahiko's experience cause him to become an activist and attempt to bring peace to Ame. And no, the reason Itachi did things the way he did was because of his war experience. We don't need to know what Itachi was like before that when we know that it was what changed him and the reason he became the way he did. And without the war, Obito wouldn't have been put in the position to die the way he did, nor would Kakashi have had to face how his attitude towards his allies was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Are you frigging serious? War is about battle, not character development. If it was true (thankfully, it's not) then the prelims to the chuunin exams was the greatest war of all time! The 1st and 2nd Shinobi wars didn't happen because we have no character development? That's not how it works. You and others have been using the wrong measuring stick to evaluate this war, then tout that the current struggle isn't a war because you're looking at it incorrrectly. Character development is inconsequential as to whether a fight is a war, battle, skirmish, feud, or scuffle. It may make it more enjoyable to read but has zero relevance if the battle is a war or not. So yes, you're a hypocrite if you stil contend that the Sand attack is a war while the current battle is not. Plain and simple.
    Are you seriously? We're talking about a fictional war here, of course it's about character development. How can you say this war is about the battle when we already know the outcome of this war? And please tell me where I say that only wars could have character development. Just because character development can occur outside of war, by no means mean that it can't occur within war. Also since you seem to have issues connecting things: we got the whole Sarutobi/Danzo development in the First World War, and the development with Tsunade and the Ame orphans in the Second World War. And really, that's an interesting position given your whole argument about Tobi having to be Obito so that kakashi can find closure...

    How is using the measurement stick that Kishi has given us using the wrong one? Character development is important, especially in this war which is suppose to be the greatest one yet that finally brings peace. I believe you got that backwards, with nothing but fighting enjoyable but overall irrelevant. There's nothing hypocritical about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Obviously it's not since they've had 3 wars in 60 years. All it takes is 1 person to fall and ithey're caught up in it again. They haven't found a solution yet and Gaara's little pep talk didn't do it either.
    Except that reasoning simply doesn't work because there's nothing suggesting that the wars of the past were caused by the cycle of hatred. And as I mentioned, it'll take more then that. A person dying won't matter if there's no one willing to seek revenge for them. And putting aside the desire for revenge is the solution that Gaara made them see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    The debate isn't whether an attack was coming or not. They positioned themselves defenseively since they didn't know whom, where, when or how. Well the Sound snake didn't look all that good after Jiraya's toad sat on it, and every panel after the signal to counterattack was given shows the Leaf winning. Yes, they were routing the enemy.
    Ibiki outright mentioned how he was expecting the attack involving Suna and Oto when he was told of it. So they clearly knew the who and when. There wasn't any panel showing Konoha "winning". There were individual successes, but Konoha wasn't winning. If Konoha had "routed" them, then the fighting would have been over before Orochimaru lead the retreat and Konoha wouldn't have been "devastated" by the attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Nope, not at all. His Hollow form didn't defeat Aizen his Shinigami (Quincy) powers did.
    You do realize that his Hollow form is a part of his Shinigami powers, right? It directly impacts his power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes, he was. And 1 time is better than not time which is what Izuna was.
    Yes he was what? And since the point is that there wouldn't have been any major role til the actual reviving, the inane argument that Izuna had to have such before his eventual revival just doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And it's secondary material, not primary. Kishi never tells us when the village was formed in the manga. Only that it happened less than 80 years ago. Even the notion of the village being formed 60 years ago is suspect because the manga never tells us when it actually happened. It could have been 70 years ago. Or 40 years ago. You can't build a chronological argument if you don't even have the starting point correct.
    Um, no, it's not secondary. Both sources are written directly by Kishi, making them primary. And since they are Kishi's own words, that makes them the correct starting point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I'm not counting Mito below him. I'm keeping them equal. For Hashiramna to be 20, Mito needs to have TM (Tsunade's mom) at age 10, who then is turn has to have Tsunade at age 10 so Tsunade is born 1 year after the founding of the village. So Tsunade is born 1 AV (after village). TM is born in 10 BV(before village) and Mito has to be 10 when TM is born. Of course it's biologically impossible to concieve at 9-years old since pregnancy takes 9 months. So Hashiama has to be older than 20. Let's say Hashrama and Mito are 30. For Tsunade to be born in 1 AV, TM needs to be born in 15 BV (where Mito and Hashirma are 15). 15 is still very young for both women to have kids, even so this scernario puts Hashirama at 90 in the present timeline, making Izuna already 85 if not older. Let's say the women wait until age 20 for both. Tsunade is born in 1 AV, TM is born in 20 BV where Mito and Hashirama are both 20. That puts Hashirama at 100 in the current time line and makes Izuna 95. As the time lengthens Hashirama's age doubles. So Hashirama has to be in his mid-30's at least when the village is founded. It makes sense. Tobi says the story starts over 80 years and when Kishi does the flashback of Hasriirama and Madara, they are in their preteens. 80+ years plus 10 makes 90+ years in the current timeline. So Izuna is around 90, not 70 like you want. Izuna is too old to be Tobi.
    Well you keep mentioning Mito with their child, so. And as repeatedly mentioned, no it's not biologically impossible. For someone who acts as if they know alot about history, you should be aware of this. You wouldn't even need to look at historical examples, there are plenty of present day examples one can find. Obito's story begins before Madara and Hashirama, or Konoha even being thought of, so that's erroneous evidence. Kishi himself tells us that the villages were founded 60 years ago. 80 years doesn't even make sense, since Sarutobi, who died at the age of 69, was shown in his preteens with Hashirama. For your argument to work, that would mean that Hashirama was alive for ten years after founding Konoha. But since we know Hashirama died soon after the founding of the village, we know it couldn't have been more then 60 years, as we were told. And since Izuna wasn't that much older then teen Sarutobi when he died. So there's no reason to believe that Izuna is around 90 or too old. That's not even mentioning the whole Zetsu/Senju cells connection Tobi had going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Not necessarily. Once agian we have no age of Sarutobi. the only info we have is that Sarutobi taught the Sannin when they were roughly 11 around 12 AV (going with the timeline in the above scenario). So if he was 20 when that event happened he was 8 when the village was founded. That puts him 25 years behind Hashirama and 20 behind Izuna which is 1 generation. Danzou isn't going to have black hair in another 20 years, so once again Izuna can't physically be Tobi.
    Um, yeah we do know Sarutobi's age. He was 68/69 when he died, as the databook tells us. He would have been ten years behind Hashirama. And since there isn't a 20 year difference, that's a moot issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Long ago is a dimensionless term. You can't quantify it. It could be 2 years ago or 1000 years ago. So Rin died, Yagura becomes a Jinchuuriki. Obito takes control on Yagura, says hello to Kisame, and lets Zabuza have his killing spree. Naruto was made a Jinchuuriki in a matter of minutes with no planning! It doesn't take years. Nor does it take years to catch one after a hosts dies. Bee said it would give "some time" after he killed Naruto to prevent Obito from getting the Kyuubi, it's not years. No plothole.
    No it's not, because right after Kakashi states it was a long time ago, he tells us that it happen eleven years ago. So we know what it meant. And how could a long time ago ever equal two years ago? Anyway, both long ago and the old days would obviously be the opposite of recent as you're trying to argue. And you do realize that events with Zabuza happen 11(14) years before, so that clearly couldn't have been under Yagura's rule if his reign was recent. Not to mention that Kisame was a member of Akatsuki during the same time as Orochimaru, so again it couldn't have been recently. And it takes years for a Bijuu to reappear. Kushina was confident that her taking the Kyuubi with her would allow Minato plenty of time to see Naruto grow. If the Bijuu reappeared soon after dying, that would defeat not only the whole purpose of Kushina's sacrifice, but also Ee's attempt at stopping Obito. And it clearly does take years to find a wild Bijuu, as we saw with Akatsuki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You're going linear to zero when we don't know if that works. You're assuming there isn't a minimum amount of chakra needed to use the Gedo Mazo. For example. If the statue requires 100 units of chakra/hour to work and Obito can only generate 50 units/hour Tobi will never get Gedo Mado to activate. But if you have 3 guys then you have 150 units/hour and can use the statue. We don't know how the extraction process works, only that it does. There is no evidence suggesting that one person can do it. That's speculation on your part. The rest of your argument is pure excrement. Why is Izuna weak and Obito strong if they're supposed to be the same person? Obito was shamelessly weak during the Kakashi gaiden arc. Why does he have to wait 50 years for Nagato when the only requirement is to kill an Uzumaki's parents and pop in some eye-balls. There were 2 prior wars and more Uzumakis back then. There's no need to have events unfurl over 50+ years when you're already bitching that 15 years was way too long for Obito being Tobi to get his act together. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You use the same metric for both scenarios and Izuna's falls flat on his face. There is no logical explaination why Izuna sits around for 50 years before forming the Akatsuki and going after the bijuus since he can do it single-handedly.
    Considering there was nothing of the sort mentioned, and the only limitation was the amount of time, there's no reason to presume that someone would need a specific amount of chakra to be used. Not that such a thing would even matter, since there's the whole connection of dummy Zetsus that would have been available.

    I would say that it's the comprehension not the argument that's the problem. First off, up until the reveal, Tobi's only method of fighting was spamming Kamui. He was shown in each of his three fights completely reliant on it, without much without it. That's understandable for Izuna, being incapable of putting up much of a fight against younger characters at his age. But Obito was shown not only still capable of using his past techniques, but also possessing Mokuton good enough to fight Kakashi and a cloaked Naruto with. So all the times Tobi got showed up after Kamui was gotten around, that shouldn't have happen. Secondly, Obito wasn't "shamelessly" weak? He was shown fighting evenly alongside Kakashi. Thirdly, it took 50 years for the Rinnegan to even awaken, so how exactly could he have popped in some eyeballs if he didn't have said eyeballs? It's hardly as if I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. The entire Infinite Tsukuyomi requires the Rinnegan and Gedo Mazo, which Izuna would have had to wait for like Madara did. Obito on the otherhand had no need to await for them, they had already been prepared for him by Madara. And since there's no explanation for Madara waiting, there's no reason Izuna would have to be explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Really? These villages hold grudges. They make not act upon it like in Hinata's abduction, but they don't forget. Vengence is a very likely reason for Rin's tragic scenario.
    That's not a grudge though, especially considering nothing came from either side. Vengeance how? As mentioned, there's nothing at all to suggest that Kiri had any association with Konoha, let along with any of the other villages. It wasn't involved in any of the World Wars. There's no reason to presume that some sort of act of vengeance was needed for them to do what they did, especially when none of the other wars we know of began out of vengeance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Who says Obito died at the end of the war? Where does it say that, he could have died at the beginning? You know it happens when Kakashi is 13, but that has no bearing on Yahiko's timeline for when he dies. We don't knwo when the war ends. It could be years before Yahiko dies and well after Obito's death. There two seperate timelimes. You can't connect them and claim plothole.
    Um, the series. Minato didn't become Hokage til after the war. And we know via Kakashi's Gaiden that the war had been going on for some time, and ended thanks to the actions of Kakashi's team. How does it not have any barrings when it places everything that happen in a two year timeframe. How could the Third World War have been still going on when everyone was in the village during the time of the Kyuubi attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    It's not a retcon when you have no evidence that Kakashi has moved on. All you have in a conversation with his father and a desire for Tobi not being Obito and giving a reason for Kakaashi to have character development. If you had a scenario after the conversation with Kakashi's father demonstrateing that Kakahi has moved on, then you can claim your retcon. But you don't. So Kishi isn't retconning, and your assuimption is still incorrect.
    There is evidence Kakashi moved on, his talk with his father. And character regression is far from character development. Not to mention, were you not the one claiming that war isn't meant for character development? How exactly are you arguing that Tobi had to be Obito so that Kakashi can get some development when you don't believe it should be a factor...

  15. #88
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It should have been evident by my usage of "even" that wikipedia wasn't the only source I was reading. The various political parties playing for power does not automatically make it a civil war.
    Whether it's ethnic polarization as it was in the civil war in Iraq after the fall of Sadam or political polarization that happened during the French reovluation that qualifies it as civil war. Ask your political science friends and they'll tell you the same thing.

    Quote Quote:
    Well given that it was the entire Alliance army that was shown, that's a moot point. Or perhaps it'll be like the situation with Sasuke, where Naruto was being set up to save him yet ended up having no role in his change of heart.
    Oonoki didn't. Oonoki wasn't moved by Garra's speech he only wanted to destroy the Akatsuki. So in a force of 100,000 shinobi there will be others that's weren't moved by Gaara's speech just like Oonoki. So Gaara's speech didn't break the cycle of hate.

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    Pretty sure that's not true. Now unless you can name some ancient battles where such tactics were used widespread, and not rarely, I'm quite sure I'm not wrong here.
    Battle of Marathon, double flanking movements 400 BC. Tsung Tsu in the Art of War loved the pincer atack and he wasn't modern either and Kishi used that maneuver too. Julius Caesar, Hannibal all used flanking tactics. Just concede this point that the tactics are older than dirt.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, he is. I'm not disregarding anything. Those examples show the change happening imminently afterward, without any other factors playing a role. So your argument about years having to happen simply fail. There wasn't years involved. Yeah, things are different, but since I'm not saying that the changes have to be exactly the same, that's a moot point. And you mention Kakashi, who did get change by the events with Obito. And again with the hyperbole.
    Kishi's not, you are. You want one person's unique circumstances to be emultaed by others who aren't the same and cry foul when it doesn't happen. Once again Nagato wasn't turned into a monster in 48 hours it happened over a period of years, so why should the Alliance?

    Quote Quote:
    No clue? You act as if the only thing we've seen of them is them being dead? Are you gonna ignore all the scenes with them being alive? We saw that Konan was affected the same way as Yahiko and Nagato, we saw that Yahiko's experience cause him to become an activist and attempt to bring peace to Ame. And no, the reason Itachi did things the way he did was because of his war experience. We don't need to know what Itachi was like before that when we know that it was what changed him and the reason he became the way he did. And without the war, Obito wouldn't have been put in the position to die the way he did, nor would Kakashi have had to face how his attitude towards his allies was.
    I'm not forgeting the scenes, I asked how war changed them. We have no cluie on how the war changed Konan, she's a weakly developed chatacter who wasn't changed by the events around her. Same for Yahiko. We knew he wants to stop war as a child, but how did the war impact him as a young adult? Again, we're given nothing.

    Quote Quote:
    Are you seriously? We're talking about a fictional war here, of course it's about character development. How can you say this war is about the battle when we already know the outcome of this war? And please tell me where I say that only wars could have character development. Just because character development can occur outside of war, by no means mean that it can't occur within war. Also since you seem to have issues connecting things: we got the whole Sarutobi/Danzo development in the First World War, and the development with Tsunade and the Ame orphans in the Second World War. And really, that's an interesting position given your whole argument about Tobi having to be Obito so that kakashi can find closure...
    Thanks for proving my point. You want to use made-up devices to evaluating this war. War is war whether I read War and Peace or Naruto. It really is that simple.
    Here's the definition of war from Webster's dictionary

    a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2) : a period of such armed conflict (3) : state of war b : the art or science of warfare c (1) obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2) archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war
    2a : a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b : a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end <a class war> <a war against disease> .

    I don't see character development in there do you? I do see armed conflict, and guess what. THAT"S WHAT WE HAVE! So yes, it's a war.

    Quote Quote:
    How is using the measurement stick that Kishi has given us using the wrong one? Character development is important, especially in this war which is suppose to be the greatest one yet that finally brings peace. I believe you got that backwards, with nothing but fighting enjoyable but overall irrelevant. There's nothing hypocritical about it.
    Because you're putting the cart before the horse. War happens and people are changed. However, the reverse isn't true. If charcters don't change there is no war. That is the fault in your argument.

    Quote Quote:
    Except that reasoning simply doesn't work because there's nothing suggesting that the wars of the past were caused by the cycle of hatred. And as I mentioned, it'll take more then that. A person dying won't matter if there's no one willing to seek revenge for them. And putting aside the desire for revenge is the solution that Gaara made them see.
    Jiraiya, Nagato, Kakashi, and Hashirama all cite the cycle of hate being the cause of war. Kishi has put it in so many times I thought everyone knew.

    Quote Quote:
    Ibiki outright mentioned how he was expecting the attack involving Suna and Oto when he was told of it. So they clearly knew the who and when. There wasn't any panel showing Konoha "winning". There were individual successes, but Konoha wasn't winning. If Konoha had "routed" them, then the fighting would have been over before Orochimaru lead the retreat and Konoha wouldn't have been "devastated" by the attack.
    Ibiki knew of an impending attack but the response is neutral. We have no knowledge that they knew a priori until the hammer dropped. The fighting was over before Orochimaru finished off Sarutobi. The whole series of events led upto this. You don't see the invading force leaving because they're dead or captured. They were already routed.

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    ou do realize that his Hollow form is a part of his Shinigami powers, right? It directly impacts his power.
    Sure, but what attack stopped Aizen. Shinigami.

    Quote Quote:
    Um, no, it's not secondary. Both sources are written directly by Kishi, making them primary. And since they are Kishi's own words, that makes them the correct starting point.
    Oh no, it's still secondary. Databooks are suportive evidence not direct evidence regardless of who writes it, hence secondary. That would be the manga itself, and it was never given. So the time the village was formed is not definitive.

    Quote Quote:
    Well you keep mentioning Mito with their child, so. And as repeatedly mentioned, no it's not biologically impossible. For someone who acts as if they know alot about history, you should be aware of this. You wouldn't even need to look at historical examples, there are plenty of present day examples one can find. Obito's story begins before Madara and Hashirama, or Konoha even being thought of, so that's erroneous evidence. Kishi himself tells us that the villages were founded 60 years ago. 80 years doesn't even make sense, since Sarutobi, who died at the age of 69, was shown in his preteens with Hashirama. For your argument to work, that would mean that Hashirama was alive for ten years after founding Konoha. But since we know Hashirama died soon after the founding of the village, we know it couldn't have been more then 60 years, as we were told. And since Izuna wasn't that much older then teen Sarutobi when he died. So there's no reason to believe that Izuna is around 90 or too old. That's not even mentioning the whole Zetsu/Senju cells connection Tobi had going on.
    For 2 children at age 9 to get pregnant, damn right that's impossible. That's the scenario you want to believe so Izuna can be in his teens and it simply can't happen. Even if the girls are at 15 which is still young that puts Hashirama at 30 and Izuna at 25. If you believe the databook then Sarutobi is at least 17 years younger (since he's 8 when the village was founded) than Izuna. No one is going to have black hiar in their mid 80's. You're trying to sign age by photo's and that doesn't work unless there is a date when the event happened.
    Tobi says Madara's story starts over 80 years ago, but at what age does Madara start at? When Kishi returns to the same storyline and elaborates on the same events Madara is in his preteens. So 90+ years for Madara in the current timeline is spot on. So Izuna attacking the world at 90 is just not feasible. A still worse plothole.

    Quote Quote:
    Um, yeah we do know Sarutobi's age. He was 68/69 when he died, as the databook tells us. He would have been ten years behind Hashirama. And since there isn't a 20 year difference, that's a moot issue.
    So my example of him being 20 was correct? Wow. But it's a databook, not the manga. That confirms that Izuna is 20 years older than Sarutobi and can't be Tobi and still have black hair. Thanks for providing the final nail to your own coffin.

    Quote Quote:
    No it's not, because right after Kakashi states it was a long time ago, he tells us that it happen eleven years ago. So we know what it meant. And how could a long time ago ever equal two years ago? Anyway, both long ago and the old days would obviously be the opposite of recent as you're trying to argue. And you do realize that events with Zabuza happen 11(14) years before, so that clearly couldn't have been under Yagura's rule if his reign was recent. Not to mention that Kisame was a member of Akatsuki during the same time as Orochimaru, so again it couldn't have been recently. And it takes years for a Bijuu to reappear. Kushina was confident that her taking the Kyuubi with her would allow Minato plenty of time to see Naruto grow. If the Bijuu reappeared soon after dying, that would defeat not only the whole purpose of Kushina's sacrifice, but also Ee's attempt at stopping Obito. And it clearly does take years to find a wild Bijuu, as we saw with Akatsuki.
    Last time I checked 16 years is greater than 10 years. Plenty of time for Rin to die, Yagura to become the Jinchuuriki, get possessed by Obtio and then Zabuza to go on his killing spree. Still no plothole.

    Quote Quote:
    Considering there was nothing of the sort mentioned, and the only limitation was the amount of time, there's no reason to presume that someone would need a specific amount of chakra to be used. Not that such a thing would even matter, since there's the whole connection of dummy Zetsus that would have been available.
    It's sort of implied since he'd need other people to use it. There's no evidence saying one person can do it all either.

    Quote Quote:
    I would say that it's the comprehension not the argument that's the problem. First off, up until the reveal, Tobi's only method of fighting was spamming Kamui. He was shown in each of his three fights completely reliant on it, without much without it. That's understandable for Izuna, being incapable of putting up much of a fight against younger characters at his age. But Obito was shown not only still capable of using his past techniques, but also possessing Mokuton good enough to fight Kakashi and a cloaked Naruto with. So all the times Tobi got showed up after Kamui was gotten around, that shouldn't have happen. Secondly, Obito wasn't "shamelessly" weak? He was shown fighting evenly alongside Kakashi. Thirdly, it took 50 years for the Rinnegan to even awaken, so how exactly could he have popped in some eyeballs if he didn't have said eyeballs? It's hardly as if I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. The entire Infinite Tsukuyomi requires the Rinnegan and Gedo Mazo, which Izuna would have had to wait for like Madara did. Obito on the otherhand had no need to await for them, they had already been prepared for him by Madara. And since there's no explanation for Madara waiting, there's no reason Izuna would have to be explained.
    Did Tobi need to kill them? No, he didn't need to engage them so why tip your hand to the enemy if you don't have to? Xellos did the same thing in Slayers, teleporting so as not to get hit but also did not directly engage his prey. Did that make him weak? No, hw was one of the strongest monsters ever! So just because Tobi refuses to engage his advesaries and only used kamui does not suggest weakness, it could be simply because he doesn't need to. Secondly, Obito was weak, Kakashi was clearly the superior ninja between the two and Kakashi has a low opnion of him. Thridly why did it take 50 years for the Rinnegan to manifest, because Naruto was born around 10 years later. The place in time it takes is irrelevant since it would happen 10 years before Naruto was born whenever Naruto was born, whether is was 10 years after the villlage's creation or 100 years. Once again it doesn't explain why Izuna sat on his ass for 50 years before doing anything.

    Quote Quote:
    That's not a grudge though, especially considering nothing came from either side. Vengeance how? As mentioned, there's nothing at all to suggest that Kiri had any association with Konoha, let along with any of the other villages. It wasn't involved in any of the World Wars. There's no reason to presume that some sort of act of vengeance was needed for them to do what they did, especially when none of the other wars we know of began out of vengeance.
    You're just speculating they didn't. They just came up with the idea to destroy the village just on a whim? The major motive in this world is revenge. Kishi has been putting it everywhere in his stories as the primary motive. So yeah, a grugde is a pretty good bet.

    Quote Quote:
    Um, the series. Minato didn't become Hokage til after the war. And we know via Kakashi's Gaiden that the war had been going on for some time, and ended thanks to the actions of Kakashi's team. How does it not have any barrings when it places everything that happen in a two year timeframe. How could the Third World War have been still going on when everyone was in the village during the time of the Kyuubi attack.
    Going on for some time doesn't mean that Kakashi Gaiden didn't happen in the first half of hte war. That's why you need bookends to confine the war, which we don't have. That's why you trying to create a plothole by using one timeline to prove a plothole on a separate timeline is futile because you can't link the two.

    Quote Quote:
    There is evidence Kakashi moved on, his talk with his father. And character regression is far from character development. Not to mention, were you not the one claiming that war isn't meant for character development? How exactly are you arguing that Tobi had to be Obito so that Kakashi can get some development when you don't believe it should be a factor...
    You're counting your chickem before it hatched. Just because he has a conversation with dad doesn't mean he's made the decision to move on. You needed confirmation and you had none. Kishi believes Kakashi needed this battle for his character to move on and I agree with it. Whether it happens on a war front or a back alley is irrelevant to me, but Kakashi needed the battle with Obito so he could move on.

  16. #89
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Whether it's ethnic polarization as it was in the civil war in Iraq after the fall of Sadam or political polarization that happened during the French reovluation that qualifies it as civil war. Ask your political science friends and they'll tell you the same thing.
    That I would find questionable, what with me taking the same classes as them and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Oonoki didn't. Oonoki wasn't moved by Garra's speech he only wanted to destroy the Akatsuki. So in a force of 100,000 shinobi there will be others that's weren't moved by Gaara's speech just like Oonoki. So Gaara's speech didn't break the cycle of hate.
    Since Onoki wasn't there when Gaara gave his speech, that really doesn't change my point at all. And a handful of people possibly not changing doesn't mean the cycle wasn't broken, since as repeatedly mentioned, there is no cycle if revenge isn't sought. If the majority of people choose not to go after revenge, then the cycle never begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Battle of Marathon, double flanking movements 400 BC. Tsung Tsu in the Art of War loved the pincer atack and he wasn't modern either and Kishi used that maneuver too. Julius Caesar, Hannibal all used flanking tactics. Just concede this point that the tactics are older than dirt.
    Please, show me where I claim that such tactics "were never used". I said, they were "rarely" used before modern warfare. Unless you can provide some examples where they were constantly used, the occasional usage doesn't change my claim at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Kishi's not, you are. You want one person's unique circumstances to be emultaed by others who aren't the same and cry foul when it doesn't happen. Once again Nagato wasn't turned into a monster in 48 hours it happened over a period of years, so why should the Alliance?
    No, what I want is to see people developed by the war as has been shown in the past. I don't care how they are change, nor do I believe they all have to emulate Nagato. In fact, it's the opposite, as I said for Naruto and this being his supposed trail by fire, where he's suppose to finally set himself apart from his forerunners and prove his belief. And again, what are you talking about? What years? Nagato was instantly changed by Yahiko's death, right after it. There wasn't any "years" involved. I don't know where you're getting this concept of years from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I'm not forgeting the scenes, I asked how war changed them. We have no cluie on how the war changed Konan, she's a weakly developed chatacter who wasn't changed by the events around her. Same for Yahiko. We knew he wants to stop war as a child, but how did the war impact him as a young adult? Again, we're given nothing.
    Wasn't changed? It was shown that their time in war caused them to want to bring peace, with Nagato and Konan placing their faith in Yahiko while he believed in Nagato to the point of literally giving his life for him. Yahiko's death cause them both to disregard their previous teaching and become far more hardcore, with Nagato developing a god complex and Konan supporting that, becoming his "angel". They became dedicated to that path to the point of even being willing to kill their former teacher. We were given plenty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Thanks for proving my point. You want to use made-up devices to evaluating this war. War is war whether I read War and Peace or Naruto. It really is that simple.
    Here's the definition of war from Webster's dictionary

    a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2) : a period of such armed conflict (3) : state of war b : the art or science of warfare c (1) obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2) archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war
    2a : a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b : a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end <a class war> <a war against disease> .

    I don't see character development in there do you? I do see armed conflict, and guess what. THAT"S WHAT WE HAVE! So yes, it's a war.
    No, I'm using the rational device based on past events and standards. If "armed conflict" is all that is required, then your previous arguments about tactics is moot, and the claims about the wars of other series fails. Heck, by that definition, the Chuunin Exam and whole situation in the Wave country can be called a war. The entire series has involved armed conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Because you're putting the cart before the horse. War happens and people are changed. However, the reverse isn't true. If charcters don't change there is no war. That is the fault in your argument.
    How am I putting the cart before the horse? The war is happening right now, meaning there's no reason people shouldn't be changing like we have seen in the past. There's no fault in my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Jiraiya, Nagato, Kakashi, and Hashirama all cite the cycle of hate being the cause of war. Kishi has put it in so many times I thought everyone knew.
    Hashirama might have, I can't recall for him, but the other three didn't. They never attributed the cycle of hatred to simply starting wars, it was towards all the issues of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Ibiki knew of an impending attack but the response is neutral. We have no knowledge that they knew a priori until the hammer dropped. The fighting was over before Orochimaru finished off Sarutobi. The whole series of events led upto this. You don't see the invading force leaving because they're dead or captured. They were already routed.
    Ibiki knowing of the impending attack means it wasn't a surprise attack. And we do know they had knowledge, because in addition to Orochimaru basically telling them, there was the whole situation with the Anbu. And considering there was still fighting shown during that time, the fighting couldn't possibly have been over before Sarutobi made Orochimaru flee. And given that we're shown the invading forces retreating afterward, your claim is wrong. The entire point is that it wasn't til after Orochimaru fled that the fighting stopped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Sure, but what attack stopped Aizen. Shinigami.
    And Hollow, since as mentioned, the two powers are apart of each other and his Hollow side have always impacted them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Oh no, it's still secondary. Databooks are suportive evidence not direct evidence regardless of who writes it, hence secondary. That would be the manga itself, and it was never given. So the time the village was formed is not definitive.
    It's being written by the same man who writes the manga and is meant to go along with it. It's primary. Claiming the author's actual words wouldn't be considered primary is silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    For 2 children at age 9 to get pregnant, damn right that's impossible. That's the scenario you want to believe so Izuna can be in his teens and it simply can't happen. Even if the girls are at 15 which is still young that puts Hashirama at 30 and Izuna at 25. If you believe the databook then Sarutobi is at least 17 years younger (since he's 8 when the village was founded) than Izuna. No one is going to have black hiar in their mid 80's. You're trying to sign age by photo's and that doesn't work unless there is a date when the event happened.
    Tobi says Madara's story starts over 80 years ago, but at what age does Madara start at? When Kishi returns to the same storyline and elaborates on the same events Madara is in his preteens. So 90+ years for Madara in the current timeline is spot on. So Izuna attacking the world at 90 is just not feasible. A still worse plothole.
    No it's not, there's plenty of real world examples. It's the scenario that is. And 17? More like 10 years younger at most. There's no reason that someone can't have black hair. You're acting as if that's some sort of set rule, and it isn't. Obito's story begins before Madara as he talks about the era, so again, that moot. We know for a fact that Madara didn't gain his EMS til shortly before the founding of Konoha and that he met Hashirama well before being an adult. And no, that age is wrong. Even if it wasn't, Onoki clearly proves you wrong in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    So my example of him being 20 was correct? Wow. But it's a databook, not the manga. That confirms that Izuna is 20 years older than Sarutobi and can't be Tobi and still have black hair. Thanks for providing the final nail to your own coffin.
    Yeah, though your math was off. And no, that doesn't confirm that. Nor is there anything about him not being able to have black hair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Last time I checked 16 years is greater than 10 years. Plenty of time for Rin to die, Yagura to become the Jinchuuriki, get possessed by Obtio and then Zabuza to go on his killing spree. Still no plothole.
    You seem to have missed the point. Kakashi's statement put the whole Zabuza incident 14 years ago (the mentioned 11 plus the three years for the time skip). Throw in the fact that the Rin incident happen closer to Naruto's birth, there isn't any time for the Sanbi to be reborn, recaptured, placed inside Yagura, then have Yagura controlled into making the Bloody Mist which was already around before that, and then create a graduation test that would have been over the following year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    It's sort of implied since he'd need other people to use it. There's no evidence saying one person can do it all either.
    Yeah, to speed it up. Seeing as there is no evidence against it either, there's no reason to think otherwise when the only mentioned difference in using it with more people is the amount of time it takes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Did Tobi need to kill them? No, he didn't need to engage them so why tip your hand to the enemy if you don't have to? Xellos did the same thing in Slayers, teleporting so as not to get hit but also did not directly engage his prey. Did that make him weak? No, hw was one of the strongest monsters ever! So just because Tobi refuses to engage his advesaries and only used kamui does not suggest weakness, it could be simply because he doesn't need to. Secondly, Obito was weak, Kakashi was clearly the superior ninja between the two and Kakashi has a low opnion of him. Thridly why did it take 50 years for the Rinnegan to manifest, because Naruto was born around 10 years later. The place in time it takes is irrelevant since it would happen 10 years before Naruto was born whenever Naruto was born, whether is was 10 years after the villlage's creation or 100 years. Once again it doesn't explain why Izuna sat on his ass for 50 years before doing anything.
    What? Yeah he did need to kill both Minato and Konan. That's the only reason he even engaged them. And he's weak not merely because he used Kamui only, but because he didn't employ anything else when he had to. And Kakashi looked down on Obito because of his personality, not because of any weakness. Considering he was capable of using the Great Fireball technique as a genin, he clearly wasn't weak. And as I said before, since Kishi hasn't explain why it took so long or why Madara waited so long, there is no reason it would have to be different for Izuna.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You're just speculating they didn't. They just came up with the idea to destroy the village just on a whim? The major motive in this world is revenge. Kishi has been putting it everywhere in his stories as the primary motive. So yeah, a grugde is a pretty good bet.
    It's not speculation. We have been told several times that Kiri hasn't had much contact with the other nations. They have never taken part in any of the World Wars we know about. And exactly what is wrong with that idea? Obito attacked simply on a whim, and the same with Orochimaru, while Suna attacked out of greed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Going on for some time doesn't mean that Kakashi Gaiden didn't happen in the first half of hte war. That's why you need bookends to confine the war, which we don't have. That's why you trying to create a plothole by using one timeline to prove a plothole on a separate timeline is futile because you can't link the two.
    Did you miss the whole "Minato not becoming Hokage til afterward"? We had a bookend for the war before recent events. And the two timelines were linked, as previously mentioned, thanks to Sasori's backstory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You're counting your chickem before it hatched. Just because he has a conversation with dad doesn't mean he's made the decision to move on. You needed confirmation and you had none. Kishi believes Kakashi needed this battle for his character to move on and I agree with it. Whether it happens on a war front or a back alley is irrelevant to me, but Kakashi needed the battle with Obito so he could move on.
    Considering that was the point of the conversation, there's no reason to have believed otherwise. And since there was nothing to move on from before now, that's a meaningless belief. No such thing was shown at all throughout Part Two til the talk with his father, nor was there any hindering at all. And like I said, all Obito's introduction has done is regress him. How is he even suppose to grow from this? Before it was simply he lost a friend due to his own beliefs, which caused him to change and take on that's friend's belief. Now we find out that those beliefs were fake and it's basically all Kakashi's fault that many of the events in the series has happen, all because he had a girl crushing on him.

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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    i agree with the most post here but i would like to add something dissapointing to me.
    we never saw the full extent of the hyuga clan's power(meaning Byakugan) it had so much praise through out the story for being powerfull like sharingang & rinnegan but it never shined.
    kishi could easily have a couple of chapter unleashing its potential and it would help with the feel of the whole ark not being so monotonus....

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