Sure it does. Because all it takes is one person to start it all up again. That's why your argument of having the leaders speak to everyone and all will be better argument falls on its face. It didn't work for Sarutobi and it won't work for Gaara, the cycle will continue that why everyone needs to be involved in this fight not just a few token members.Quote:
There are a plethora of books on the subject. I provided one. Show me where they were rarely used. You're making that claim, not me.Quote:
You may gripe about the effects of war, but that has nothing to do with the war itself. Nagato wasn't changed into what he was immediately. He fought alongside Yahiko through many battles, much longer than 48 hours and he didn't go crazy. Yahiko's death was the trigger to his transformation so just because people are in a war doesn't mean they will get changed immediately.Quote:
They wanted peace before they met Jiraiya. That proves nothing. Yahiko's death affected Nagato yet the question is how the war affected them. How did it affect Konan? How was she changed? We aren't given anything.Quote:
You've been comparing apples and oranges since the beginning. Claiming that since you can't see the apple the orange can't be an orange. That's not a rational device, it's misguided frustration. You do need the tactice to give war depth, scale and direction to separate it from other conflicts like a battle, fight,mission, or a mugging. They are needed to separate it from other altercations, but the one thing you don't need is character development.Quote:
Because you're claiming that since you can't see the effects of war, the war isn't happening. You're putting the effects before the war and since I can't see the effects of war, the war isn't a war. War generates the effects not vice versa.Quote:
Jiraiya did. All the hate led to fighitng and subsequently war. Nagato clearly did in his convesation with Naruto on the evolution of pain and war. Kakashi explains how the fighitng never stops in its endless cycle. It's all there.Quote:
They suspected, but that doesn't mean they knew. They knew Orochimaru's intentions but they didn't know the Sands. You can't make that claim. They were fighting before Sarutobi died ans Konoha was winning, yet you had no clue that the fighitng was still going on after Orochimaru won. You saw no retreat signal given to the main forces. You only had Orochimaru's comments to the Sound 4 but that is independent on what was happening elsewhere.Quote:
But you have no evidence showing that Ichigo wasn't ready to learn the fnal form before going to Hueco Mundo. You don't need Hollow powers to do the final getsuga tenshou.Quote:
Doesn''t matter. Databooks are the notes of the author or an authorized 3rd party. When you critique a work you use the work itself to make the arguments. Not the notes, because those aren't in the work. So it's secondary material, not primary. So while it's in Kishi's notes it's not is the manga itself, so it's always treated with a grain of salt.Quote:
No, there aren't many real world examples of people being a grandfather at age 20. That's were you are wrong. Additionally, you have no evidence that it happened that early. It has to happen that early because you need it to support your house of cards, not because that is what actually happened. Like that picture of that guy having grey hair in his beard at 80. Kind of proved my point, doesn't it. Everyone who is elderly in this series has grey or white hair. Sarutobi, Chiyo, Oonoki, Mito, Madara Sarutobi's two councellors all have grey/white hair. It's natural to expect old people to have grey/white hair when they're older. Danzou's doesn't in his 60's but that doesn't mean he won't in his 90's. because people age. It's a fact of life. There is no reason why Izuna wouldn't have grey/white hair at 90. So since Tobi has black hair he can't be Izuna. Once again "then one day" is a dimensionless unit that doesn't tell you how much time passed before the village was founded. Both Tobi and Hashirama are talking about Madara using the same timneline there's no reason why the story starts over 80+ years ago and Madara being 10 when Hashirama first meet Madara aren't linked.Quote:
Sure it does. Sarutobi is 17+ years younger than Izuna and Sarutobi has grey hair along iwth all the other older people. That shows Tobi can't be Izuna because he's too old. Still a worse plothole that Obito.Quote:
There are 3+ years for all those events to happen and you have no evidence to support your claims. Still no plothole.Quote:
Sure it accelerates the rate but that still doesn't mean 1 person can use it. 4 people can move a table faster than 2 people, but that doesn't mean 1 person move it by himself. Those are two different things.Quote:
I'm talking about the Sasuke pursuit party and meeitng Naruto en route to Iron Mountain. He was delaying their actions so you don't need to engage your targets so why tip your hand if you don't have to. Just because Obito can use a fire ninjutu doesn't make him strong. Kishi does explains Madara's reason for waiting, he was caught in a feable state of existance due to his battle of Hashirama. Izuna has no excuse why he sat on his ass for 50 years doing nothing.Quote:
You're going to destroy a village with a bijuu for greed? A country which has had no reason to involve itself with the outside shinobi world then one day decieds to destroy people? Orochimaru had greivances with the village. He didn't like being passed over for Hokage or the limkitations in ninjutsu experiments. He had grudges.Quote:
Not at all. And when exactly did he become Hokage? Obviously before Naruto's birth but how long ago? How long did the Kakashi Gaiden arc happen before that? We don't know. Lastly you haven't linked that to Yahiko's timeline since we don't know when Yahiko died just that it happened in the 3rd Shinobi War.Quote:
That still doesn't prove he acted on the conversation yet. Kishi confirms that he hasn't with Kakshi's conflict on trying to retain the memories of the good Obito. So while he had his conversation with dear old dad, he clearly hadn't moved on yet. Is part of this Kakashi's fault. Yes, it is. The series of events are partly due to his actions in the Third Shinobi War. How he grows after processing this information as the war conlcudes should prove interesting.Quote:
I dread Naruto chapters right now. Absolutely dread them. It seems like every week I see what it's become and compare it to what it was and every time I feel like the guy in Grosse Point Blank when he returns to his family home only to find it's been turned into a convenience store.
The obvious thing to do in my situation is to stop reading but for reasons even I don't understand anymore I feel compelled to see the series to the bitter end. Even though I readily acknowledge I should probably just stop reading. It brings me no joy.
At least not until Bloomer writes her CAPSLOCK.
Last edited by Jammin; August 19, 2013 at 07:55 PM.
Pein's blowing up the Leaf village contradicts that. it only took Yahiko's death and look what happened. Sarutobi had decades to change the will and minds of his subjects and failed. Just because Gaara is likable now doesn't means he can break his people out of the cycle of hate. They are separate issues.Quote:
How many ancient battles and books cited are needed to refute your claim? I can compile a list but you won't accept it. You're wrong but you won't admit it. I can't help that.Quote:
No, the whole point of this war is to determine which governing philosophy will determine the future of the shinobi world, not tragic outcome of the unfortunate. Yeah, and how many other deaths and wars took place before that happened? I'm sure it was more than 48 hours worth, my point is just because Nagato's character was transformed after many battles and wars culminating in the death of Yahiko doesn't mean everyone in this war is going to undergo a similar transformation.Quote:
Really? Konan felt the same way about life, war, peace, and love like Nagato did? Please show me where she felt any of those beliefs and how war specifically was the cause of the change to her moral center.Quote:
It's not my fault you incorrectly try to associate two different items, switch their order of association and are stunned to be told that you're doing it wrong. Naruto's gong to win? Didn't see that coming. Nor did we see that Shisui's eye was going to release Itachi from Kabuto's control, or that senjutsu attacks work on the Jyuubi or that Naruto can transfer bijuu energy to anyone he wants. This is shounen, of course Naruto will win, but the question is how.Quote:
It's been less than 48 hours. Your first error was assuming that war was going to be a platform for neglected characters to get decent character development. Your second error is to assume that all future character development is gone because we are now heading toward the climax. There a literary device called a denoument and lots of character development occurs in these parts as well. So just because it doesn't happen on the battlefield doesn't mean it won't happen later. So yeah you're still putting the cart before the horse.Quote:
Chapter 437. How love breeds sacrifice which breeds hatred and the give fuel to the cycle and war ensues. Both Jiraiya and Nagato sees these as the symptoms, they just try to treat the disease differently.Quote:
Saying "It's them" after a scout identifies the enemy is a neutral statement. It doesn't confirm anything. Right....Konoha was losing but won. Konoha losing, turning it around, and routing the enemy would be a better assessment. But the Sand/Fire Alliance had the Leaf as the victors and the Sand hung with the head in defeat. If the Leaf was losing they can't really dictate the terms of the alliance now can they.Quote:
Ichigo never had control of his powers, they manifest when he needed them not because he has control over them. Still doesn't change the fact that it was a Shinigami attack that defeated Aizen and wasn't taught in Hueco Mundo. Still a waste of trees,Quote:
He couldn't stay "The Leaf village. formed 60 years ago, was a ....? I could do it but he can't? It's not that he can't it's that he chooses not to so he get strapped down into these time plotholes that you are trying to catch him at. That's why he doesn't use dates. So the 60 years is a questionable point in the timeline.Quote:
Girls don't menstruate in the 3rd grade (age 9). Didn't they teach sex ed at your school? So no, it's impossible for Hashirama to be a grandfather at 20. I'm not ignoring evidence, I'm ignoring you're unfounded speculation and conjecture. You don't know how long Madara and Izuna fought until Izuna "died", you don't know how long Madara fought afterwards until the village was founded. You showed one person having black hair but grey in his beard, unfortunately his name wasn't Izuna Uchiha. In fact almost all of the old people, especially those "older" than Danzou and Sarutobi have grey or white hair. So why wouldn't Izuna who is older than anyone alive not have grey hair? Because you want your candidate to be Tobi, npt because Izuna would have had black hair at 90. People in their 90's don't have black hair. Hell most are grey by their 50's in manga and real life. As one gets older it becomes statistically impossible. Just because you found 1 person in the real world with black hair doesn't change the fact that the other 99.99999% don't, nor does it exclude Izuna from being in that 99.99999%. Izuna can't be Tobi due to physiological or chronological means. A still worse plothole than Obito.Quote:
Except Izuna is 20+ years older and you can't claim that Danzou will still have black hair in another 20 years.Quote:
Where does it say Kakashi was 15 when the Kyuubi attacked? No, you have plenty of unfounded speculation of what if's and maybe, but no evidence. All those events had plenty of time to materialize. Still not plothole.Quote:
And some people can't move a table all by themselves. The problem is we don't which scenario we have here so the ambiguity still remains. Even if your scenario is the correct one it doesn't explain why Izuna sat on his ass for 50 years if he could have collected the bijuus all by himself. A more pathetic scenario.Quote:
No, the debate was overusing Kamui is a sign of weakness. But there are many viable reasons for Tobi to behave this way including not showing all your abilities to your enemy if you don't have to. Just because you use a technique that can't be countered doesn't mean it's a sign of weakness. Just because the fire technique was a rite of passage doesn't mean you're strong. Obito was older than Sasuke he should have been able to do it. Just because he can proves nothing.Quote:
Of course he did. He stood up there like Sasuke did envisioning the demise of the Leaf village. Yes, he said it was a whim, but later on we learned he did have issues of the appointment of the 4th Hokage, pursuit of Forbidden jutsu, and how he stood there developing the resolve the destroy the village. It wasn't just a mere whim.Quote:
You have 1 bookend but not the second. Still it doesn't prevent Obito from meeting Yahiko since we don't know where in the timeline that Yahiko dies.Quote:
Just because Kakashi has a conversation on changing his ways doesn't mean he did it at that moment. It could be at that moment, but it could also be a day later, or a year later, or never. That's why you need evidence to confirm he has. You don't. But you don't want to validate Obito's claim for being Tobi due to necessary character development for Kakashi so you cry retcon. The reality is that Kakashi hasn't moved on and the author states it. So it's not a retcon and you guessed incorrectly. Kakashi needs to come to terms with the death of Obito and what happened to his friend afterwards. Will it break him from his daily morbid ritual. Hopefully, yes.Quote:
Last edited by Brill; August 20, 2013 at 07:32 AM.
Here, and here, and here.
Finally, they come” is not a neutral statement. It's outright confirmation that he was expecting them. Konoha won due to Orochimaru retreating, and the fact that Gaara was taken out of the village. There was no routing. It was a Pyrrhic Victory given what had happen. And Suna surrendered when they discovered that their Kazekage had been killed and Orochimaru had been manipulating them. That doesn't change that it was outright mentioned how Konoha had gotten devastated and such, and they were so worried about another attack that they wanted a new Hokage imminently. And Konoha didn't dictate any terms.
Here you go. And here. And here. So what were you saying about it being impossible.
You have been ignoring evidence and there's nothing unfounded about it. We can clearly see that Izuna was in his teens when he died, and the series shows that the founding of the village happen soon after that. Almost is not all, so you trying to argue as such just doesn't fly. And actually, there is another person I forgot, who's as old as Hashirama and Madara and still had black hair: Kakuzu who was stated to be 91. So even that argument doesn't fly. And your comments about people being gray is moot here. Neither Kakashi nor his father were that old and they were gray. Now less you can specifically prove that Izuna would be part of that 99.99999%, then that's moot as he can just as easily be apart of that 00.00001%.
Last edited by Rikudou King; August 21, 2013 at 11:35 PM.
Yes it does, your argument was one death would not start the cycle. One death was all it took for Nagato to go evil and try to enslave the world in fear. If Yahiko hadn't died Jiraiya, some of the bijuu would be alive, the Akatsuki would be different and Konoha wouldn't have been destroyed. One is enough.Quote:
You're the one claiming it was occasional. Not me. I give you historical examples and you won't concede the point. You're just being obstinate. Whether it's one group or several doesn't change the fact that these manuevers have been around for millenia by various civilizations. You erred, not me.Quote:
Loser's causes are causes too. Just because they lose doesn't negate the cause. The reason is he fought all those battles and lost all those people and Nagato didn't change until Yahiko. Now in the current battle people are fighitng and aren't swticfhing like Nagato did because their triggers weren't pulled and you're crying foul.Quote:
Nothing, nothing, and nothing. I ask you how the war changed Konan and you quote errant statements about supporting and protecting her friends. Was she really such a callous bitch beforehand? i didn't think so.Quote:
Oh, it's exactly what's going on here. You and others are dissatisifed with the effects of this war. That's a legitimate, debatable topic. However, just because you're dissatisfied with the outcomes doesn't negate the fact that a war is taking place. It may be a great war, or a mediocre war, or a lousy war, but it's still a war.Quote:
Here we go again. Characterization does not make an event a war. Because the Chuunin exam wasn't a war and it had the biggest character development. followed up by the attack of Zabuza. That wasn't a war either. Just because Kishi doesn't meet your expectation on the effects of war doesn't negate the war storyline. Those are two different things and are not related in the way you hope them to be. There are several series with denouments. Inuyasha, Full Metal Alchemist, Negima, Rurouni Kenshin all had denouments, some were final chapters others went a bit longer, but development occured to characters after the final battle.Quote:
And that's what fuels the wars.Quote:
Yes it is. He didn't say Sand, did he? He said them, it's a neutral term. If he had said "It's them our intel was correct" then you'd have some weight to your argument. But it's a neutral statement, confirming an enemy is present but not who it was. Konoha won because they had beaten the invaders, why would the Sand retreat because Orochimaru left? They don't follow his orders, they were already beaten.Quote:
Bzzt! He gained control just two chapters ago after realizing what his powers were. Almost a year after the battle, try again.Quote:
The plothole isn't his it's yours, trying to make Izuna younger than he actually is. The Bloody Mist and Ame children aren't, che only one that is may be is when Orchimaru left the Akatsuki but that has no impact on the war.Quote:
And does Mito have precocious puberty which is a medical condition where the sex organs develop prematurely because that is what your poster child had. You find 100 females out of over 6 billion born between 1800 and 2013, most through non-consensual sex (incest, rape, sex trade) and you're claiming this is the norm? The odds for it happening to a female is 1 in 60,000,000. To happen twice is another 1 in 60,000,0000 which is 0.0000000000000003% combined. So on paper it's not zero, but in reality it's impossible. Let's not forget you have no evidence that they did conceive that early. So yeah, Izuna is older than you claim he is. Try again.Quote:
I have no problem with Izuna dying in his teens, the question has always been how muich longer did they fight? "And then one day" is dimensionless. Was it 1, 5, 10, 15 years? We don't know how much time expired, that's been your problem. Kakuzu? Seriously? The guy wasn't even a normal human anymore, who's to say that was his natural hair? If it were true, then all old people would have black hair, but alas they do not. People have been trying to elude Father TIme for centuries but you crappy arument is not going to beat Him either. Izuna is too old to be Tobi.Quote:
But he is 20+ years older, and you do have to prove Danzou having black hair in his 90's because it's the entire foundation for your argument that Izuna can be Tobi. All the people in the 60's have grey hair except Danzou, and everyone older than Danzou has grey/white hair. I'm not trying to turn back the clock here, you are and you haven'tp roven anything. Izuna can't be Tobi because he jsut too damn old a worse plothole than Obito.Quote:
So, it's not in the manga. So we really don't know how much time has expired between these two events. You can't prove the plothole you're claiming that has been violated. Next.Quote:
You don't know how big or heavy the table is nor do you know how strong the person is. No specifics about the table are given so you can't claim whether or not a single person can move it or not. Just because multiple people can move it doesn't 1 person can do it all by themselves. That's the fault in your argument.Quote:
Where does it say that? Tobi feigns weaknees but was it true or not? Who can tell? Just because you have a killer move doesn't mean you have to use it against their enemies. Villians and their authors can behave in any way they choose to regardless of the views of the peanut gallery.Quote:
Huh? Where do we know Yahiko was alive after that? All you have are 3 events. Obito's death, Yahiko's death, and the end of the war. We have no clue how much time pased between ANY of these events so you can't claim plothole if you don't know anything about how all three points relate to one another, and we don't.Quote:
You still can't distringuish between the two, can you. Just because Kakashi decided to move on doesn't mean he has moved ion. If I decide today to lose 10 pounds but if I don't go to the gym tomorrow and still continue to eat the way I usually do, have I lost 10 pounds? Have I moved on? The answer is no, I haven't. The same is true for Kakashi, He had his revelation with Dad but did he move on? Kishi decided he hadn't and thus Obito and Kakashi fought each other so Kakashi can see how his friend was twisted by evil and what effects this will have on Kakashi's life after the war concludes. That's a reason for making Obito, Tobi.Quote:
i know it is spam but i just had to do it
i honestly don't know why am i reading this "shit" any more, at this point i think even author itself hates it, or simply i am too old for another DBZ
but i started to read it at beginning and i will end it, by god i will end it peace and love people
Sure the parents, and the little dog mascot were primers, but Yahiko's death was the trigger. If Yahiko didn't die, we wouldn't be here. Nagato wasn't hellbent on destruction and terror. he wanted to protect people he cared about. So one person is the trigger, because if it isn't then no death in this war will give you what you're looking for.Quote:
I've given you Cartheiginian, Roman, Greek, and Chinese. We haven't even done medieval or Colonial yet. That's plenty. You've provided nothing. You can also claim the world is flat. That doesn't make it true.Quote:
He did a 180 because of Yahiko's death and he stated that. In the previous paragraph you're saying more than 1 person is needed, now you're saying it only takes one. Make up your mind.Quote:
No, I asked you specifically how the war changed Konan, not how she wants to help her friends achieve their goals.Quote:
"Supposed to be getting", that's the whole issue right there. War is an armed conflict. You got an armed conflict. Mission accomplished. Except battle royales, don't have maritine invasions or forward deployments, flanking movements, covert ops, ambushes, and reinforcement deployments. You have 2 people dancing around each other. So right now, this chapter, we have a battle royale, but the first 36-48 hours we didn't. We had something bigger than that.Quote:
Dude, you do it every frigging post! These aren't Kishi's expectations, these are your misguided expectations. Kishi unveiled one person's experience with war and you think that is the only thing to focus about war, forgetting everyting else out there.Quote:
There might be, but hatred is the source for all.Quote:
Yes, it's said after. not before. That's the problem. It's acknowledgement that the attack is iminent but it doesn't prove that the Leaf knew the Sand's involovement beforehand. That's the fault with the argument. If it was only Sound ninja, then the argument would have more weight. Not neccesarily. Just because the Sand lost doesn't mean the nation of the Sand "officially" surrended. We don't know when the treaty went into affect, before or after the kazekage's death. It remains an unkown.Quote:
He wasn't given anything. He just finally realized what they were. Just because he fought in Hueco Mundo doesn't prove he couldn't learn the Final getsuga Tensho beforehand. There is absolutely no evidence to support that.Quote:
Yes, you are. You're trying to box in Izuna being in his 70's as he became Tobi when in fact he's most likely way older. There is plently of time from's Rin's death to Zabuza to allow all sequences to occur. Likewise we have no idea when Yahiko dies so you can't claim that as a plothole either for when Nagato and Tobi meet.Quote:
We know Mito wasn't hanging around Hashirama in his teens like a little puppy. Hashirama didn't say "Sorry Madara, I'd like to throw rocks with you but my wife will nag me if I don't go back right now". All courtships in this series happen in their late teens or twenties, not when they are 9! You don't see Sarutobi's wife hanging all over him in those pictures when he was 8. Do Madara's and Hashirama's fathers look 19 to you? They look like mature adults to me. Just because they were fighting nomadic tribes before the founding of the village translate to women having kids before the age of 10! That's pure speculation on your part. Just because you have a 0.0000000000000003% chance doesn't mean it has equal weight as the other 99.9999999999999997%. So it doesn't happen the way you want it to, so Izuna won't be in the 70's to plug another plothole that your alternative scenario has.Quote:
No he doesn't. Izuna is injured as a preteen. Then dies at some later date while Madara is a teenager. They continue to fight until Madara is an adult. Years have passed, it's not the next battle. We have no clue on how much time has actually passed. Actually you're the one with the straw man. Everyone in this world who is old has greay/white hair. Danzo has black hair but since he's infused with Hashirmar DNA, you can't claim he's normal or that he we STILL have black hair in his 90's twenty years later! If Danzo was 90, you could, but he's 20 years younger than that. You haven't shown that yet, so Danzo is a failed example. Kakuzu is Kishi' version or Frankenstein. he has no flesh, no bones, 5 hearts, and his skin is sown together. Is his hair even natural or is it a wig? Now if Izuna was built like Kakuzu you might have had an argument. but you don't. I on the other hand have reality on my side. I realize people age when they get older and lose the color to their hair. All the old people who aren't modified have GREY or WHITE hair. Period. There aren't any exceptions and Izuna is older than the people with the grey or white hair. So he's going to have grey or white hair. Tobi has black hair, so Izuna can't be Tobi. So once again your alternate fails.Quote:
Yes he is because the others are very likely in their 30's when the village was founded. And Danzo is in his 70's. Any evidence that he's older than Sautobi? You've proven nothing. You have unfounded speculation saying "well, old guys can fight too" so Tobi can be Izuna. Then when asked to support the claim you've provded nothing. Nothing from the manga, because there are jsut too many gaps to make a case for Tobi being someone else than Obito. There really were no other candidates. No matter how hard you try there are too many gaping plotholes for it to be anyone else?Quote:
It's a source of notes, but not a substitute for the manga. You can't prove the timelime by the manga so you have to revert to the notes found in secondary sources. That's the problem with most of your arguments. You're not using the manga to prove your case, because in most instances you can't. So you have to look elsewhere to prop up your arguments. Plotholes are caused by the manga not by info from databooks. If it's not in the manga then there is no plothole.Quote:
There you go with the assumptions again. Are the "right circumstances" even present? Once again, you don't know. You're assuming they are but there is no evidence to support it.Quote:
So bad guys can't have an off day? They always have to be invincible until the final battle? Bad guys can't make mistakes until it's their time to amke a mistake? You're assuming they have to act and perfrom a certtain way until the time comes when they don't. It doesn't work that way. They behave the way the author wants them to, and opinions to the contrary are meaningless.Quote:
There's no problem with Obtio's death, but where in the manga does it say that the war ended by Kakashi's 15th birthday? It doesn't, you're using the databook and you're envisioning plotholes becuase you're using 2 sources of material instead of just one. You should be using only 1 and when you do, you can't claim a plothole because there is no evidence for it, just conjecture.Quote:
Who's saying it's a retcon. You have no proof that Kakashi had moved on from tje conversation from his dad. It's just your opinion that he did. Kishi didn't believe so and wrote the material regadfing the battle between Obito and Kakashi, demonstrating that he hadn't. You can't have retcon with just an opinion, you need evdivence, which you once again fail to provide.Quote:
EDIT: While you'll probably reply within 48 hours Rikudo, I'm taking a break so we can resume in October. It's been fun.
Your argument is just silly. You're claiming that Danzo and Kakuzu can't be used because their bodies are unique, yet ignore the fact that the scenario for Izuna to be alive and replace Madara and Obito would also have him possessing a unique body like theirs. Also, Kakuzu's hair is clearly natural, otherwise he wouldn't have had it when he got revived as an Edo Tensei. Nothing about my alternative fails.
And no, I brought up them being able to fight to counter your claim that him being old would have meant he couldn't do anything. And you got that backwards. There's more gaps in Obito being Tobi then not. Izuna would have explained why he was trying to revive Madara back in the first place (since Obito had his own ideas about the plan), why he took such an interest in Sasuke (both being the loyal younger brothers), why he reacted to Madara's history as he did (Obito had no reason to react to the talk about Izuna willingly giving his eyes to Madara), and why geniuses like Minato and Itachi could believe he was Madara (there would obviously be a difference between an adult and a teenager). Him being Obito opens up a whole bunch of questions, such as why would he attack Konoha but take no action against Kakashi, how the heck could he fight solo with Minato in such a short time, how the heck did he learn about the flaw in Kushina's seal, etc.
Yes, I'm back.
I wouldn't say he loathed Konoha specifically, but it did prime him to go bonkers if Yahiko or Konan died. And Yahiko did. If Yahiko died choking on a rice ball would he have gone postal? No. The reason why Nagato went crazy was because he failed to protect his friend.Quote:
Tsung Zhu wrote it but he clearly didn't invent all of it. It doesn't change the fact that the tactics have been around for millenia. Whether it's a flanking movement from ancient times or a left/right wheel movement in colonial times, these tactics weren't invented recently.Quote:
No, I asked you how the war impacted Konan. And you provided nothing, because there is nothing. Does it take a war to "help your friends". Konan didn't seem to be a callous bitch to me.Quote:
You're right, it's scale. You had 5 divisions deployed over different terrains for land and sea encounters. You had forward deployments overrun. You had divisions reinforcing other divisons. You had nightime special-ops raids. Where was this in either FMA or One Piece? One Piece was nothing but a battle royale. FMA was "let's sneak into the HQ while a diversion goes on elsewhere".Quote:
No, you just took Nagato's opinion on war and ran too far with it. He's one person's account on what war was. This war could have a completely different outcome and experience.Quote:
You don't know what the Suno motives were. The Senju/Uchiha wasn't based on a condition. Their condition prevented them from stopping, it wasn't the cause.Quote:
But that stil doesn't prove they knew who, what, where, or when. Claiming you expected somoene to show doesn't prove woh it was a priori.Quote:
Yes, and he was trained in the connecting workd, not Hueco Mundo. Hueco Mundo was not a prerequisiste for him gettimg his powers. A total waste of trees. And your idea is later contradicted by the fact the power manifested itself when Ichigo needed it, not because he could control of it.Quote:
And yet Kurama was sealed into Naruto within minutes of being freed with no preparations. Care to explain that? There is no 2-year requirement. All events can easily happen within the time period. No plothole.Quote:
Hey, you're the one who believes Mito's popping out kids at 10 so Izuna could be 70 in the present, not me. Why would you have Sarutobi around. he wasn't even born yet when Madara and Hashirama first met. The father's ages are important. You make the claim that the nomadic times were equivalent to the fuedal era in Japan. But in Kishi's world people have normal courtships regardless of the era. Hashirama's father isn't 19 because he had Hashirama when he was 10, nor did Hashirama impregnate Mito at 10 so you can have your Izuna being 70 today. The only reason it "happened" is because you need it to happen to prop up your house of cards. But it can't because Izuna is too old to be doing this and have black hair. Izuna can't be Tobi.Quote:
Incorrect, Izuna died from a mortal wound from tobriama when Madara was in his teens and years passed before the village was founded . Madara doesn't look the same when the viallge was founded, serveral years have passed.Quote:
No, silly is claiming that someone who has no flesh, no bones, 5 hearts, nothing but grey phalangi inside his body (who no longer qualifies as a human being)-yet since he has black hair it's possible for normal people to have have black hair in their 90's. The problem with this quagmire is that Izuna is just a normal Uchiha. Not modified by Hashirama DNA, nor infused with abnormal body parts. The only thing that Izuna had was that he was blind. Now I haven't heard that implanting Uchiha eyes stops the aging process so Izuna will age just like every other human, not like Kakuzu or Danzou who are not. Tobi had a modified body, Izuna just lost his eyes and since he died young there is no reason to believe Izuna was Tobi, aside from the fact you don't like Oibto.Quote:
Guys in their 60's sure, not guy in their 90's. Especially guys in their 90's with black hair. Su re it's a better pairing for a brother to revive one's older brother, but if Izuna was alive why would Madara still be fighting the village? It makes no sense. Izuna's interest in Sasuke is no different than Obito's in the fact that he was using Sasuke as a tool. Izuna might make you feel better over Obito, but it plagued with impossible plotholes that while you wish to ognore them, no other reader could.Quote:
But it's not the manga, it's a databook. It's Kishi's notes, it was things not incorporated into the storyline. they've been omitted. It gives texture to the manga but is not a replacement for it. This is where you err.Quote:
Good for you and if his name is Obito then you have an argument. The point isn't that one person can move a table, it's that you don't know if one person can move one specific table. They might, they might not but not even your precious databooks have the answer.Quote:
Except he's wasn't the final villian. You can portray villians as normal people too. They don't have to be powerful, flawless entities until they are destroyed. The faulty villians are usually the more interesting ones. Sometimes, it's ok to break away from standard plot devices.Quote:
Thanks for proving it's not there. I don't need to read the databook to read Naruto. Auxilliaries don't trump the main work. If it's not in the story itself, then it's not cannon. That fallacy is yours. Plain and simple.Quote:
The conversation showed Kakashi has comes to a crossroads. It doesn't tell us which path Kakashi took. You assumed he went down one path however, you have to backpeddle since Kishi has shown Kakashi went down the other.Quote:
Stop arguing about genocide, don't argue about irrelevant stuffs like that (by that I meant the goal is to win an argument). Why not make the goal as trying to inform the other person.
Genocide: The systematic killing of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, etc.
So the key here is systematic. Got it people.
It seems, Brill may have an opinion that is opposite of me. But I can't read all of that jumble mumble. Can you summarize you view point in a post (for my selfish reason). But I won't get in an argument for the sake of argument (or the sake of winning an argument even if one's stance is absurd, that's what lawyers do, and I don't like them).
There are tactics before Sun Tzu's time and after Sun Tzu's time. Battle of Thermopylae is ridiculously funny, if I was the leader of the Persians, the greeks wouldn't stand a chance.Quote:
*don't reply to this point*
Brill- please do summarize your points, because I found the argument between you and RKing to be incredibly irrelevant. I meant, really, it doesn't matter what route Kishimoto choose to write his war/armed conflict/ or whatever the fuck. If it isn't entertaining, mind blowing, etc, then it is just worthless.
---------- Post added at 09:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 PM ----------
Ahh, found the pot of golds....
You didn't answer RKing's question. Within the world of Naruto, is there a reason for this war? Even if I consider your strawmanning statement and consider the author's intent instead of the logic of the manga. Is this war the best possible way to achieve such a goal?Quote:
So is your view here is that, Kishimoto is talentless enough to not able to rise about the restriction of the shonen limit? He may make a mistake here, but your view is that he never had such a potential in the first place? Well, let's see, people pay money to read or watch about choreographic and well written wars and not really to witness it in real life. Hence, I still don't get you. So maturity aside, you think it is more entertaining to have more people live??? Or if your answer is no, there can still be more deaths but less bloody ya know. What is your point?? Are you just defending Kishimoto because just because.Quote:
So if there are readers that can't feel these tensions, is this a failure on Kishimoto's part??
The whole thing about this, I supposed is tension. I don't think we need death to have tension. I don't like going to One Piece, but I will do at this point. The upper yard game, geez, we all know the straw hats would prevail somehow but seeing Enel kicking everyone's asses. At that point in time, I don't see how the strawhats going to get out of those situations. Like when Nami was with Enel, and Enel was proven to be extremely unstable. I supposed, I genuinely fear for her life even though I knew nothing is going to happen that drastically.Quote:
I don't know but I don't feel that way here. Maybe because I don't care enough about the characters. I don't know compare to the retrieving Sasuke's arc. I kinda genuinely care if Neji die then. I don't really care when he die the way he did. I don't even feel sad. lol, if Shikamaru had kick the bucket a few chapters, I could like care less.
So how would you rank the shonen conflicts base on impact and entertainment? Which are more successful than the others? Don't get me wrong, the beginning of this war is pretty decent. The battle between the revive kages are kinda cool. But the rest are eh...Quote:
This is the failure of many manga. Bleach is the biggest example. But compare to the current arc of One Piece. I would say that the current One Piece arc is actually more complex to write than Kishimoto's war arc (though it should have been the other way around). Even chapters that fan criticize, when I reread, I feel the pacing is awesome. And those heavily criticized chapters were perfect as transition.Quote:
If Kishimoto was good, he could make just about anything work whether it is Obito and or Izuna. But it didn't work, if you enjoy the sort of below average chapters (that was meant to be mind blowing because it is the height of a climax of a conflict), then congrats this is a perfect saga for you. I don't mind if he had below average chapters here and there or even arcs and sagas. But this is the ultimate conflict, this is the climax of his series, and yet, not only it didn't live up to its expectation. It fails to even entertain sometimes (even on chapters that supposedly super good because you can see that Kishimoto is trying hard, really really hard).Quote:
---------- Post added at 09:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------
Yes, Whitebeard war arc sort of disappoint me, but I thought within Naruto verse, there is more freedom to kill and make it way more bloody than One Piece Verse. I felt there is so much miss opportunity. The fear of death that Orochimaru represented in the Chunnin exam, where the hell is that??
Man this last chapter was way over my level of cheese acceptance. Kishi is seriously making things up as he goes on. The way people are behaving feels so inconsistent with the first part and the exposition is way over the top. I wish I could like this manga more as I loved it before but I just can't, this week was really dissapointing.
The war just feels silly, and now that Madara is going to pull out his ace out of the sleeve, I just don't care anymore.