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Thread: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread <3

  1. #121
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Wow. Your scenario is even more ridiculous than kishi. You want the akatsuki to hired a bunch of nin from the other villages and used them to attack all the villages at the same time?

    It's like You want to hire a bunch of assassin to destroy their hometown/home/village. Yea yea, it has alot of sense.
    What's ridiculous? It would have been much better that way. Akatsuki wouldn't even have to "hire" them. Remember, Nagato spoke about how much the smaller villages had such hatred towards the larger villages. So it probably would be an easy sale for Akatsuki to have had the smaller villages form into an army to attack the larger ones. And recall, Suna and Oto with only 200 soldiers caused quite a bit of trouble for Konoha. That's all that would matter, that the smaller villages caused enough of a distraction that Akatsuki could complete their plan without the greater villages interfering.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    They killed everyone who was apart of the monarchy. That reasoning is ridiculous. It would be like saying that because Pol Pot didn't kill every single person connected to those he disagreed with, that he didn't comment genocide. Or that because there were still Jews alive at the end of WW2, it wasn't genocide.
    They killed the royal line. They didn't kill the maids, gardeners, and stableboys who worked on the estate. Genocide pertains to revolution when one ethnic tribe erradicates another which is what is currently happening in Syria. Deposing a royal line is revolution, killing a whole ethnic race is genocide.

    Quote Quote:
    He hated Konoha well before Yahiko's death. He specifically told Jiraiya about that. And the point still remains that it took more then one.
    If Nagato was an orphen and his parents died to famine and Yahiko still gets killed, Nagato wouldn't have gone postal? No, there'd be no story then. Kishi used the death of Nagato's parents as the compass to show how Nagato passion to protect his new family led to his undoing.

    Quote Quote:
    Which I never claimed or argue. You keep talking as if I had claimed that no tactics were ever used or something. Again, I said that they weren't commonly used. They were used occasionally, which is why people who used them, like Sun Tzu and Alexander the Great are famed for making use of them. If they were widespread in usage, then there would be nothing special or unique about these guys using them.
    Yes you did. You claimed the actions on the field were only modern strategies employed when they've been used for millenia.

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    I showed that before, Konan was a caring and loving girl, and afterward, she became cold and distant like Nagato.
    And is that because the war did that to HER? Once again, we don't know how the war affected her. We know she's different from before, but we don't know the cause of it. Was it because her lover died? Was she gang-raped in a subsequent battle? Was Nagato's psychosis rubbing off on her? Was she under the influence on the Rinnegan? We simply don't know.

    Quote Quote:
    Right, five divisions that played absolutely no role in achieving anything. Really, how can you count the background action of Naruto, and then try to write off the others? Both sides in One Piece were divided into divisions too, and they used tactics too, such as the Marines trying to trap the Pirates and Sengoku tricking and using Whitebeard's own men to attack him. And There was far more going on in FMA then "creating a diversion"... And most important, we were actually given reasons to care about people other then the main characters and those who died were important.
    They killed around 100,000 zetsus, Naruto got around 20? They sealed half of the Edo Tensei, Naruto sealed 0. Just because their achievements aren't "spectacular" doesn't mean they did nothing. Once Piece's "battle" was just a cameo runway. Reintroduce everyone in the series to do a token move. Ho-hum The war was initiated from a pirate leader who hadn't even been introduced into the stroyline yet. Luffy scurries from one person the next, watches Ace die, then War is over. That's not a war, that's a battle at best. In FMA did I care about the Northern XO or the old Shin bodyguard? No, I could have cared less. Did anyone else of importance die in the battle? Nope. Did the coup make important advances against the humonculus, some but nothing that was essential to the defeat of the enemy. At least the Shinobi Alliance helped extract the Jyuubi out of Obito. That has at least some relevance.

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    No, I wasn't just using "Nagato's opinion". I was using everything we had been told and shown about wars in the Narutoverse. You want to say that there were other possibilities, then please show me an example in the series where war wasn't made out to be like that.
    I can't comment on this war because it's not over yet. But Kishi has foreshadowed that the outcome this time will be diffeent than other wars and Naruto will be the main reason why. He had Naruto hint at accomplishing this by some of his actions, but Kishi hasn't resolved the main issue yet. I'm betting the showdown between Sasuke and Naruto will be Kishi's answer.

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    Yeah, I do. We were outright shown Suna's motives were due to monetary troubles. We were shown that in two different flashbacks. And no, it was the cause. It was the entire reason people like Tobirama and Danzo had no trust of the Uchiha clan, despite them not doing anything to warrant being mistrusted.
    When were the Suno hurting for money? Tobriama did think that Uchiha were more than there emotions. He had faith in Madara when no one else did. Their arrogance brought down the Uchiha not their love of their dying brethern,

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    Yes it does. If they didn't know who, what, where, or when, then there would have been able to expect them. You can't expect something you don't know is coming.
    No, it doesn't. Just because you know player X wants to attack the Superbowl, doesn't tell you that person Y is also attacking as well. Those two dots were not shown being connected by Konoha. Iinstead a vague statement, "'Player Z' is attacking" instead. Is Z, X? Is Z, X and Y? The truth is never revealed.

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    Hueco Mundo was a prerequisite to reach the point where he could even fight his Hollow side, who I would remind you had always been shown the stronger one.
    Where? There'is no evidence for it. You're speculating but it'sKibo so you gotta speculate which is why I don't post much in that forum. He could easily learn his next ability without having to goto Hueco Mundo. It wasn't a prerequisite.

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    No preparations? I guess Minato just summoned a ceremonial shrine (one the Kyuubi recognized and specified the purpose) and everything because he thought it would look cool. It was clearly shown preparations were necessary. And no, there's no reasonable explanation as to how everything could have happen within such a short time.
    Was it prepared before the Kyuubi was released? No. Was the Kyuubi resealed within minutes after being released? Yes, it was. No prolonged preparation is required so there is no problem for all the events to proceed within a few years. No plothole.

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    No, that's two separate things. And the point was that we know for a fact that Sarutobi was directly training under Hashirama during the point of that flashback, but according to your reasoning, he didn't exist because there's not a single mention of him. And no, their father ages would only be important if Hashirama and Madara were their first children, thereby showing that they didn't have kids til late. But as I pointed out, both Hashirama and Madara had multiple siblings, including older ones, so that argument fails since you can't prove that they all had their kids late in life.
    Yes but what TIME was sarutobi training under Hashirama? Was it before the village was founded or was it after? We simply don't know. Where are they cllaimed to be older? They just had siblings who had died. You can't prove that Hashirama's dead siblings were 10 years his senior either.

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    Really? And where exactly did you see these "normal courtships"? You can't possibly say how any courtship was done when we have only see two actual relationships, Asuma/Kurenai and Minato/Kushina, with the latter giving birth in her late teens/early 20's. That's not even pointing out the rest of the fledgeling relationships we have been shown beginning in their early teens. And what age Mito gave birth isn't needed for me to show that Izuna is in his 70's. On the otherhand, you're the one so desperate to prove that Izuna must be older while ignoring that any such claims still fail due to your own argument. If more then 80 years really did past, then that means that Madara was in his hundreds when he gave Nagato his eyes and met Obito. Same with Onoki and Sarutobi, who were teens when the villages were founded. And of course, Danzo. It just simply doesn't flow anyway you try to twist it.
    Is Asuma 60 years old? No, Sarutobi is at least 20 years older than he is. Are Kankuro, Temari, and Gaara less than 10 years younger than their father? They clearly are not. Are Hashirama amd Madara less than 10 yeers younger than their fathers? They are not. Kushina, Kurenai and Sasuke's momther are all well into adulthood when their children are born. Couples have kids in their adult lives, not when they are 10. All the examples support this fact. Mito's age at giving birth is critical for your argument that Tobi is 70. If she has a child at 20 then Tobi just turned 80. If Tsunade's mom has a child at 20 then it Tobi just turned 90. Your problem is that Izuna is from Tsunade's grandparents era. You can bob and twist as much as you like but you can't evade the fact that Izuna is just too damn old to be a black-haried youth. Izuna is still a worse plothole that Obito.

    Quote Quote:
    Aside from how you can claim that Madara was a teen and then claim that years pass when he looks the same before and after, years didn't pass. It was made clear that the village founding happen soon after Izuna's death, the very next time Madara faced Hashirama with EMS and was finally brought over to his side. It was shown they started building the village right after that. And if you're saying that Madara doesn't look the same as when the village was founded, then that in no way affects the key issue that only sixty years have passed.
    No, all that Kish said was "and then one day..." . How long is that? A week, a year, a decade? We have no clue. All we know is that Izuna "died", time passed while the Uchiha fought the village. then the Uchiha surrendered. In Hashirama's falshback Izuna was injured by Tobriama when Madara was pre/teenager, when reconciliation occurs, Madara is shown as an adult. Almost a whole decade had transpired.

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    That's completely and utterly ridiculous. Izuna wouldn't be a "normal" person in this scenario, and I have no idea how you gained that idea. He would clearly be abnormal not only after dying/being killed, but because the character of Tobi was built around that idea. It's like you're ignoring that we're talking about him being revealed as Izuna instead of Obito, meaning that everything about Tobi that came before that would still be there. And my issues with Obito are due to far more then any sort of perceived dislike.
    Was Gaara given longevity after he was ressurected? There's nothing special about Izuna to suggest that he doesn't age like normal people. The only thing Izuna gave was his eyes to his brother, nothing else. So yeah why would one expect that Izuna would be a black-haired Tobi when it's not chronologically or physicologically possible? it's just your disgust of Obito that supports it.

    Quote Quote:
    Also, considering the range of Sharingan abilities, such as rewriting reality, one gaining some ability that extends life is not farfetch. Numerous characters extended their lives using unique abilities, it wouldn't be anything new.
    It's completely far-fetched since their fate-altering abilites claim their eyesight. Only the Uzumaki's were endowed with strong life force because of their Senjuu lineage. The Uchiha were not. You're speculating, there is no evidence.

    Quote Quote:
    Kakuzu says hi. Why would Madara be fighting the village? Um, because the village and Uchiha clan betrayed him. Madara's reasons for fighting against was never solely over Izuna's death. Izuna being alive wouldn't change that, especially if it was Madara who brought him back.
    And Kakuzu isn't a human being anymore. Next failed example? Madara fought the village because his brother died. If Izuna was alive he wouldn't be compelled to fight the villlage due to his love of his brother. Seriously, how do you explain Izuna being dead for 10 years while his brother still fought the village, or is he alive and hiding while Madara attacks the village. Both arguments are weak.

    Quote Quote:
    No, Izuna's potential interest in Sasuke would make sense, since he would clearly identify with Sasuke given that they have much in common: both younger brothers who idolized their older brother, said brothers who got betrayed by those who they protected, both inferior to said brothers in skill, both with a hatred towards Konoha and the Senju clan. Obito and Sasuke really have nothing in common aside from being apart of the same clan, and there was/is no reason that Obito was interested in Sasuke. Absolutely nothing came from it, Sasuke wasn't necessary for any part of Obito's plan or even needed as we have been shown. And no, Izuna isn't plagued by any kind of plotholes that aren't already there for Obito too. Actually, there's less plotholes, because Izuna would have explain the whole "shadow of his former self" theme that Tobi had going and the reason he wanted to revive Madara. There's no explanation for either of those with Obito, who's stronger then he originally was and had no reason or desire to revive Madara as we have been shown. That's not even mentioning the issue of the young Obito being able to match skills with Minato, or the issue of why he didn't just use Nagato to revive Rin, his entire reason for doing what he's done. And if it was so "impossible" then why is it that Izuna was considered the most logical choice by the majority of readers?
    Obito doesn't have the plothole of being a 90+ year old shinobi who runs around like he's 20. Obtio doesn't have the problem of physiologically being a young man with black hair. Obito doesn't have to explain why the hell did he sit on his ass for 45 years to begin the destruction of the world when he had the ability to start it when he "died". Yeah Izuna has plenty of plotholes that can't ben waived off because their is no absolutely evidence to support that storyline, just a a desire for Tobi to not be Obito.

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    What the hell? The databook only contains stuff already shown in the manga and expands on them, like the various techniques the characters use. It also contains stuff that was later placed in the manga, like Sarutobi's name and the names and information on all the current Kages. There's no "things not incorporated" stuff. And you're the only one talking as if it's a replacement.
    Correction, not everything in the deatabook has been written into the manga. If it was, you wouldn't need the databook. When you want to make an argument you have to quote the correct source, and that's the manga. If it's not in the manga, then you can't claim it as truth. If the manga doesn't esyablish the goalposts you can't move the goalposts because you read something in a databook. That's what you're trying to do here.

    Quote Quote:
    No, the point is that you're trying to claim there's some limitation when there been no such thing implied. That's not even pointing out that it wasn't even the only means of doing so, as we were clearly shown during the war when he easily had the Gedo Mazo absorb the Hachibi and Kyuubi chakra simply by eating them.
    I'm not the one trying to invoke plotholes without connecting the dots. That's all you. You have 3 points: X, Y, and Z. You know the order but you don't know how much time has expired between X and Y, X and Z or Y and Z, but you want to claim a plothole anyway. That's just a fool's errand because you're not citing the manga for your evidence but the databook and speculation on your part.

    Quote Quote:
    He was portrayed as such, and there's the problem. Villains can be powerful and still have flaws. Look at Blackbeard in One Piece, Father in FMA, Darth Vader in Star Wars, etc. And they definitely do have to pose an actual threat, otherwise there's no interest. When you have a villain who's only a threat because everyone else got dumb downed, that's not an interesting villain. And really, acting as if Obito is something "new"? He the exact same as nearly every other villain in the series: a guy who was similar to Naruto until something bad happen to crush his dream. There's nothing about him that wasn't already done before.
    It's called a plot-twist. We've seen several in this series. Orochimaru was the main evil guy, but actually he was a member of the Akatsuki. Pain was in charge of hte Akatsuki, but it was actaully Tobi who was the real mastermind. Now Tobi is just a lackey of Madara. Are you really that surprised? Is it really that incomprehensible? It's one of the oldest plot devices in manga.

    Quote Quote:
    No, that fallacy is yours. No one claimed that "auxiliaries" trump the main work. The "auxiliaries" are meant to go with and expand the information of the main work. And saying it's not canon is hilarious. So I guess Sarutobi's first name isn't canon, since that was introduced in the "auxiliaries". And I guess none of the other Bijuus and Jinchuurikis are canon, since they were first introduced in an "auxiliaries". Oh, and I guess the powers of the Sharingan and Rinnegan aren't canon, what with being introduced in the "auxiliaries".
    Uh, you just did by way of argument claiming that Kakashi is 30 and there is no way Yahiko could meet Tobi because of a time plothole. The manga never gave Kakshi's age nor when Yahiko died. You invented an plothole with info from the databook to make your argument since there was no evidence in the manga. You can't make that claim because your evidence isn't in the manga.

    Quote Quote:
    It did tell us, we were literally told that Kakashi was still holding back against him during their "final" fight. And also, need I point out that the current chapter has no involvement of Kakashi in Obito's redemption?
    No it didn't. It showed the crossroads but not the patch Kakashi had chosen. He clearly didn't choose the route you envisioned, so no retcon.
    Last edited by Brill; January 10, 2014 at 02:34 PM.

  3. #123
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Miyamoto's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Dissapointment ? No , I don't think so . In this arc , we get to know a lot .
    1. Jūbi
    2. The masked man is actually Obito .
    3. Hokages
      • We get to know about Minato's character better .
      • Tobirama's character .
      • Hashirama's character .
    4. Sasuke's decision .
    5. Shinju
    6. Sage's backstory
    7. The Jinchruuriki of the Jūbi

    These are the things that I have in mind right now . Although I respect all the opinions , saying that this arc is a dissapointment ... I think you're going too far .

    "This world holds only despair , it is not worth existing"

  4. #124
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity REN KOUEN's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyamoto View Post
    Dissapointment ? No , I don't think so . In this arc , we get to know a lot .
    1. Jūbi
    2. The masked man is actually Obito .
    3. Hokages
      • We get to know about Minato's character better .
      • Tobirama's character .
      • Hashirama's character .
    4. Sasuke's decision .
    5. Shinju
    6. Sage's backstory
    7. The Jinchruuriki of the Jūbi

    These are the things that I have in mind right now . Although I respect all the opinions , saying that this arc is a dissapointment ... I think you're going too far .
    honestly i have no problem with ET on the major characters

    but bringing back Dan, Nejis dad, granny chiyo and all of those other mid to minor characters....

    just watered down Edo Tensei as a jutsu and this war arc as a whole

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  6. #125
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by REN KOUEN View Post
    honestly i have no problem with ET on the major characters

    but bringing back Dan, Nejis dad, granny chiyo and all of those other mid to minor characters....

    just watered down Edo Tensei as a jutsu and this war arc as a whole
    The sad part is that it wouldn't have if Kishi had dedicated time to those characters. They were all (mostly) legendary in their own rights... I mean, even Dan had a pretty OP ability- it's understandable that Kabuto would add him to his army because why not? But what did we ever get with his interaction with Tsunade? She gets a get-out-of-death-free card and then... nothing. He was just some guy with a cool power. The problem really arose when Kishi not only shoe-horned certain encounters into even being remotely likely (Sai and his brother), but only gave the slightest of spotlight to more tertiary, but heavily-hyped characters (Mist Swordsmen, among many).

    Then there was the problem of abusing Kabuto's insanely coincidental resurrection of Kin and Gin to further the Tobi/Mazou plot without ripping out Kurama until... Holy hell, now? It contributed to dragging out the plot 100 chapters, which I think has left a lot of us with resentment upon reading the acronym "ET". If he was going to drag out the story anyway, why do it with the uninteresting Tobi fights (there are many) when he went out of his way to resurrect a bajillion characters that could drag the story out in every which way humanly imaginable?!

    *sigh*

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  8. #126
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity REN KOUEN's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Lol at slitting the death-gods belly to be able to summon the fallen hokages

    some kind of deathGOD if he just gets his belly slit that easily

  9. #127
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by REN KOUEN View Post
    Lol at slitting the death-gods belly to be able to summon the fallen hokages

    some kind of deathGOD if he just gets his belly slit that easily
    Or the Shinigami was a human (Uzumaki) who was sealed and used as the arbiter between life and death for Uzumaki sealing jutsu. Also the type of death GOD you might be thinking of doesn't match the mythology Kishi is messing with.

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  11. #128
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    They killed the royal line. They didn't kill the maids, gardeners, and stableboys who worked on the estate. Genocide pertains to revolution when one ethnic tribe erradicates another which is what is currently happening in Syria. Deposing a royal line is revolution, killing a whole ethnic race is genocide.
    Um, roughly 40,000 people died within it. They killed more then just the royal line. And a group just doesn't have to be connected by ethnics for something to be considered a genocide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    If Nagato was an orphen and his parents died to famine and Yahiko still gets killed, Nagato wouldn't have gone postal? No, there'd be no story then. Kishi used the death of Nagato's parents as the compass to show how Nagato passion to protect his new family led to his undoing.
    No, he wouldn't have. The entire point was that Nagato had moved beyond that previous hatred in an attempt to achieve peace and upon Yahiko's death, failed to be a better person. Without the previous deaths, Yahiko's death wouldn't have had the same impact because there wouldn't have been any hatred against them in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes you did. You claimed the actions on the field were only modern strategies employed when they've been used for millenia.
    Please link to it then, because I never claimed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And is that because the war did that to HER? Once again, we don't know how the war affected her. We know she's different from before, but we don't know the cause of it. Was it because her lover died? Was she gang-raped in a subsequent battle? Was Nagato's psychosis rubbing off on her? Was she under the influence on the Rinnegan? We simply don't know.
    Yes. We saw her during the war before Yahiko's death, and she was just as she was before. The change didn't happen til Yahiko's death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    They killed around 100,000 zetsus, Naruto got around 20? They sealed half of the Edo Tensei, Naruto sealed 0. Just because their achievements aren't "spectacular" doesn't mean they did nothing. Once Piece's "battle" was just a cameo runway. Reintroduce everyone in the series to do a token move. Ho-hum The war was initiated from a pirate leader who hadn't even been introduced into the stroyline yet. Luffy scurries from one person the next, watches Ace die, then War is over. That's not a war, that's a battle at best. In FMA did I care about the Northern XO or the old Shin bodyguard? No, I could have cared less. Did anyone else of importance die in the battle? Nope. Did the coup make important advances against the humonculus, some but nothing that was essential to the defeat of the enemy. At least the Shinobi Alliance helped extract the Jyuubi out of Obito. That has at least some relevance.
    By the story itself they have done nothing. It has literally been all on Naruto to save everyone and it's been him that has been attributed to winning the war. I think you should reread it, because it was far more then just some cameos nor was it "initiated" from a pirate leader that hadn't been introduced yet... And the war was far from over when Ace died... Just because you personally didn't care for them doesn't change that the majority of people did care for them, because we were specifically made to care about them. And quite a few named characters died. Again, I suggest you reread it, because the actions of the coup were essential to setting up the counter to Father's plan, and it was thanks to it that they were able to reverse it and save all the souls he had stolen. And they help stall Father, along with weakening Wrath (which was one of the key reason Scar was able to win).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I can't comment on this war because it's not over yet. But Kishi has foreshadowed that the outcome this time will be diffeent than other wars and Naruto will be the main reason why. He had Naruto hint at accomplishing this by some of his actions, but Kishi hasn't resolved the main issue yet. I'm betting the showdown between Sasuke and Naruto will be Kishi's answer.
    So what's preventing you from commenting on another? You brought up the idea that Wars normally are like that, so what evidence do you have to support such an idea? And unfortunately, Naruto's actions are already destined to fail due to the previous mentioned of not being able to convert everybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    When were the Suno hurting for money? Tobriama did think that Uchiha were more than there emotions. He had faith in Madara when no one else did. Their arrogance brought down the Uchiha not their love of their dying brethern,
    Since their Daimyo started sending missions to Konoha. It was mentioned back then and shown again during the current arc, that they were only getting by thanks to the Yondaime Kazekage's gold technique. What Tobirama thought didn't change that he purposely screwed them over because of his own personal fears. And what arrogance? We literally saw Fugaku willingly accepting death and telling Itachi he loved him, despite Itachi going against them all. The only Uchiha who could be said to be arrogant is Madara.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No, it doesn't. Just because you know player X wants to attack the Superbowl, doesn't tell you that person Y is also attacking as well. Those two dots were not shown being connected by Konoha. Iinstead a vague statement, "'Player Z' is attacking" instead. Is Z, X? Is Z, X and Y? The truth is never revealed.
    What are you talking about? We were specifically shown that he was expecting Suna. That's who was mentioned, and that's who he made his comment towards. If they hadn't actually been mentioned, then perhaps you could have a point, but they were, making this entire line of reasoning fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Where? There'is no evidence for it. You're speculating but it'sKibo so you gotta speculate which is why I don't post much in that forum. He could easily learn his next ability without having to goto Hueco Mundo. It wasn't a prerequisite.
    He couldn't learn anything until he got his Hollow half under control and that couldn't have happen had he not gone to Hueco Mundo. We know it couldn't have, because he had already been attempting it and failing to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Was it prepared before the Kyuubi was released? No. Was the Kyuubi resealed within minutes after being released? Yes, it was. No prolonged preparation is required so there is no problem for all the events to proceed within a few years. No plothole.
    Clearly it was prepared beforehand, given that it was all set up and everything. Still awaiting the explanation for how things can have happen within such a short time frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes but what TIME was sarutobi training under Hashirama? Was it before the village was founded or was it after? We simply don't know. Where are they cllaimed to be older? They just had siblings who had died. You can't prove that Hashirama's dead siblings were 10 years his senior either.
    Considering that the Sarutobi clan didn't join til after the founding, gonna go with after... Not that it would matter, because Sarutobi was still being trained even after Hashirama died. Izuna is the only one mentioned as Madara's younger brother. I don't have to prove it, I'm not the one making the claim that requires such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Is Asuma 60 years old? No, Sarutobi is at least 20 years older than he is. Are Kankuro, Temari, and Gaara less than 10 years younger than their father? They clearly are not. Are Hashirama amd Madara less than 10 yeers younger than their fathers? They are not. Kushina, Kurenai and Sasuke's momther are all well into adulthood when their children are born. Couples have kids in their adult lives, not when they are 10. All the examples support this fact. Mito's age at giving birth is critical for your argument that Tobi is 70. If she has a child at 20 then Tobi just turned 80. If Tsunade's mom has a child at 20 then it Tobi just turned 90. Your problem is that Izuna is from Tsunade's grandparents era. You can bob and twist as much as you like but you can't evade the fact that Izuna is just too damn old to be a black-haried youth. Izuna is still a worse plothole that Obito.
    Really? Even during a time when the average life span was 30 years? During a time where young children were considered old enough to fight and kill in a war? During a time were "many" children were being killed? Couples in this world wouldn't be having children as "adults", since them even getting to adulthood was questionable. The series actually supports my argument more then yours, because there would have been little reason to wait that long before having a child given the likelihood of death before they even reached that age. As for your "examples", Sarutobi has at least one other child, so you can't claim anything towards him. The Suna siblings on the other hand support my argument, since their mother would have been between 11 to 18 when she had Temari (Her twin brother Yashamaru was 27 when he died, years before the start of the series). The same with Hashirama and Madara. And nothing is "critical" to my argument, as I have already pointed out. This is just one of several bricks being used. And as already mentioned, the whole "too old" thing doesn't even work for you anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No, all that Kish said was "and then one day..." . How long is that? A week, a year, a decade? We have no clue. All we know is that Izuna "died", time passed while the Uchiha fought the village. then the Uchiha surrendered. In Hashirama's falshback Izuna was injured by Tobriama when Madara was pre/teenager, when reconciliation occurs, Madara is shown as an adult. Almost a whole decade had transpired.
    What are you talking about? The very next time they met was after Izuna had died and Madara gained EMS, with Madara literally telling them that Izuna had died from the wounds that Tobirama had given him. And then the next day was when they reconciliated, followed by building the village. There wasn't any fighting the village by the Uchihas and they were surrendering before Izuna had died. Please, show me how this Madara is different from this Madara. Or how Hashirama is any different, or how Tobirama is any different. Please show me how you managed to get a whole decade to pass when that makes no sense at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Was Gaara given longevity after he was ressurected? There's nothing special about Izuna to suggest that he doesn't age like normal people. The only thing Izuna gave was his eyes to his brother, nothing else. So yeah why would one expect that Izuna would be a black-haired Tobi when it's not chronologically or physicologically possible? it's just your disgust of Obito that supports it.
    Aside from the fact that Gaara's resurrection wouldn't have been the same as Izuna's resurrection, you're again ignoring we're talking about him as Tobi, who was shown abnormal well before the Obito revelation. Also, considering so little is known about Izuna, to make such a claim is simply ridiculous. And as repeatedly mentioned, it is perfectly possible both physically and chronologically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    It's completely far-fetched since their fate-altering abilites claim their eyesight. Only the Uzumaki's were endowed with strong life force because of their Senjuu lineage. The Uchiha were not. You're speculating, there is no evidence.
    Except when combined with Senju Dna, as Tobi allured to when he fought Konan. And what? Um, have you forgotten about Kakuzu? Orochimaru? The Toads? Again, numerous characters have extended their lives with unique techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And Kakuzu isn't a human being anymore. Next failed example? Madara fought the village because his brother died. If Izuna was alive he wouldn't be compelled to fight the villlage due to his love of his brother. Seriously, how do you explain Izuna being dead for 10 years while his brother still fought the village, or is he alive and hiding while Madara attacks the village. Both arguments are weak.
    And Izuna wouldn't have been either were he Tobi, which is the point you're apparently ignoring. Madara didn't fight the village because Izuna had been killed. I don't know where you pulled that idea from. He fought because he wanted to be Hokage and felt betrayed, both by Hashirama and the Uchiha clan. And aside from your "ten years" not being applicable in any way because that's not how much time had pass, did you miss the part where I said that Madara brought him back to life? The scenario could have easily been that upon gaining the Rinnegan, Madara resurrects his brother, dying soon after. Izuna then pretends to be his brother, manipulating events in a grand scheme to revenge themselves of those who "betrayed" them and to create a world with themselves as rulers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Obito doesn't have the plothole of being a 90+ year old shinobi who runs around like he's 20. Obtio doesn't have the problem of physiologically being a young man with black hair. Obito doesn't have to explain why the hell did he sit on his ass for 45 years to begin the destruction of the world when he had the ability to start it when he "died". Yeah Izuna has plenty of plotholes that can't ben waived off because their is no absolutely evidence to support that storyline, just a a desire for Tobi to not be Obito.
    It's not a plothole when that wouldn't even be his age, and even if you do want that to be his age, we still have several 90+ characters running around and keeping up with the 20 year olds. We also have two older characters that still have black hair, so that's not a plothole either, especially when hair color doesn't truly matter. And the whole waiting thing still applies to Obito, because both Obito and Madara waited for no good reason either. At least with Izuna, it could be said that he had been waiting for events to come together. Izuna doesn't have anything that isn't already there regardless, and far less then the ton of plotholes we got with Obito.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Correction, not everything in the deatabook has been written into the manga. If it was, you wouldn't need the databook. When you want to make an argument you have to quote the correct source, and that's the manga. If it's not in the manga, then you can't claim it as truth. If the manga doesn't esyablish the goalposts you can't move the goalposts because you read something in a databook. That's what you're trying to do here.
    Except the databooks are a correct source, just like the manga. They were both written by the same person and the databooks were specifically written to go along with the manga and show stuff he just didn't have the time or room to put in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I'm not the one trying to invoke plotholes without connecting the dots. That's all you. You have 3 points: X, Y, and Z. You know the order but you don't know how much time has expired between X and Y, X and Z or Y and Z, but you want to claim a plothole anyway. That's just a fool's errand because you're not citing the manga for your evidence but the databook and speculation on your part.
    I'm not invoking anything, I'm merely pointing out things that are already there. There's evidence in both the manga and databooks to support the claim that these are plotholes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    It's called a plot-twist. We've seen several in this series. Orochimaru was the main evil guy, but actually he was a member of the Akatsuki. Pain was in charge of hte Akatsuki, but it was actaully Tobi who was the real mastermind. Now Tobi is just a lackey of Madara. Are you really that surprised? Is it really that incomprehensible? It's one of the oldest plot devices in manga.
    This isn't a plot-twist. What's incomprehensible is your counter-argument has nothing to do with the problem I listed. Nagato was just a lackey, yet no one had to be dumbed down for him to be a threat. No one had to be dumbed down for Orochimaru to be a threat. The issue isn't that Tobi wasn't the mastermind, it's that his entire plotline relies on everyone else being idiots just to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Uh, you just did by way of argument claiming that Kakashi is 30 and there is no way Yahiko could meet Tobi because of a time plothole. The manga never gave Kakshi's age nor when Yahiko died. You invented an plothole with info from the databook to make your argument since there was no evidence in the manga. You can't make that claim because your evidence isn't in the manga.
    Aside from the already mentioned fact that the databooks are just as valid as the manga, the manga did tell us when Yahiko died. That's the key point. Yahiko died during the Third World War, when they all were grown up. That was retcon to them still being children during the Third World War. And while the manga doesn't give exact ages, it does give us a rough estimation, meaning my argument still works regardless of what you want to consider valid or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No it didn't. It showed the crossroads but not the patch Kakashi had chosen. He clearly didn't choose the route you envisioned, so no retcon.
    It was literally acknowledged that Kakashi was holding back against him. And just as I said, Kakashi had no role in Obito's redemption. Completely meaningless.

  12. #129
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity REN KOUEN's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    Or the Shinigami was a human (Uzumaki) who was sealed and used as the arbiter between life and death for Uzumaki sealing jutsu. Also the type of death GOD you might be thinking of doesn't match the mythology Kishi is messing with.
    Im well aware that kishi borrows parts of shinto mythology in his writing

    but even those shinto shinigamis typically wouldnt be felled by a mortal

  13. #130
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Um, roughly 40,000 people died within it. They killed more then just the royal line. And a group just doesn't have to be connected by ethnics for something to be considered a genocide.
    Yes, and most of those people died in the aftermath during the power vacuum. People on the left and right were executed, but it wasn't indescriminate. It's not what happened in WWII, Rowanda or Syria.

    Quote Quote:
    No, he wouldn't have. The entire point was that Nagato had moved beyond that previous hatred in an attempt to achieve peace and upon Yahiko's death, failed to be a better person. Without the previous deaths, Yahiko's death wouldn't have had the same impact because there wouldn't have been any hatred against them in the first place.
    If he still suffered from their deaths, but that wasn't made clear. The death's of Nagato's parents was more a transition device to his new family of Yahiko and Konan. During his training with Jiraiya, Nagato comes to the realization of his new goal in life, protecting his friends. However, when that goal fails he then goes postal. If he was still traumatized or reliving the death of his parents as Yahiko was killed, then one could argue that the two events are linked but the events are not connected, they just happen separately.

    Quote Quote:
    Please link to it then, because I never claimed that.
    Um post #80. They were rarely around. It wasn't until modern times that they became commonplace in warfare. It's a meaningless emulation if it goes against previous examples and still ends up just the same.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes. We saw her during the war before Yahiko's death, and she was just as she was before. The change didn't happen til Yahiko's death.
    Konan was a happy girl when Jiraiya left, the next time you see her she's a hapless pawn in the Yahiko's death, then flash forward 20 years and she's ruthless. But when she changed is never shown, nor the events that changed her perception on life. Was it war or some other tragic event in her life is never given to us.

    Quote Quote:
    By the story itself they have done nothing. It has literally been all on Naruto to save everyone and it's been him that has been attributed to winning the war. I think you should reread it, because it was far more then just some cameos nor was it "initiated" from a pirate leader that hadn't been introduced yet... And the war was far from over when Ace died... Just because you personally didn't care for them doesn't change that the majority of people did care for them, because we were specifically made to care about them. And quite a few named characters died. Again, I suggest you reread it, because the actions of the coup were essential to setting up the counter to Father's plan, and it was thanks to it that they were able to reverse it and save all the souls he had stolen. And they help stall Father, along with weakening Wrath (which was one of the key reason Scar was able to win).
    Did Naruto kill all 100,000 zetsu, no. Did he seal the Edo Tensei? No. Did he tell the the Shinobi Alliance that the Zetsu can completely copy the the chakra signature of any shinobi. No. Did he directly release Edo Tensei? No, he did not. Did he teach the Shinobi Alliance to use Earth Wall techniques to buffer the attacks of the Jyuubi? No. So there is a lot that Naruto hasn't done. You may not find it impressive but that is your opinion. I don't need to reread One Piece. Once was enought and it's still a trumped up battle, not even a war. Killing off humonculi was neat, but did it matter in the final battle? Nope.

    Quote Quote:
    So what's preventing you from commenting on another? You brought up the idea that Wars normally are like that, so what evidence do you have to support such an idea? And unfortunately, Naruto's actions are already destined to fail due to the previous mentioned of not being able to convert everybody.
    Why would I comment on the others. They all continue to perpetuate the cycle of hatred that plagues the shinobi world commenting on them would prove nothing. Naruto has been foreshadowed since the Isle of Waves as a ninja who bucks the system. Having Naruto change the minds of others by his nindo is a very naive way to fix a very complex problem so kishi hasn't been directly addressing it. Naruto says he wants to be a shinobi greater than all the Hokage, he will achieve that in this conflict. How it manifests itself is going to be a huge challenge that Kishi may fail at.

    Quote Quote:
    Since their Daimyo started sending missions to Konoha. It was mentioned back then and shown again during the current arc, that they were only getting by thanks to the Yondaime Kazekage's gold technique. What Tobirama thought didn't change that he purposely screwed them over because of his own personal fears. And what arrogance? We literally saw Fugaku willingly accepting death and telling Itachi he loved him, despite Itachi going against them all. The only Uchiha who could be said to be arrogant is Madara.
    Where was that stated? The problems with the Sand program were internal not financial. There's no evidence that they're doing it for money. Just because Fugaku respected Itachi decision to protect the village doesn't prove that he and ther others weren't arrogant in their desire for a coup.

    Quote Quote:
    What are you talking about? We were specifically shown that he was expecting Suna. That's who was mentioned, and that's who he made his comment towards. If they hadn't actually been mentioned, then perhaps you could have a point, but they were, making this entire line of reasoning fail.
    No, they we're expecting the Sound village, maybe. But not the Sand. Hayate never made it back with the crucial intel. He was tracking Kabuto not the sand leader.

    Quote Quote:
    He couldn't learn anything until he got his Hollow half under control and that couldn't have happen had he not gone to Hueco Mundo. We know it couldn't have, because he had already been attempting it and failing to do so.
    And he failed again in Hueco Mundo. he didn't get his hollow form in check he lost control. That's why the whole thing was unncecssary in the hirst place.

    Quote Quote:
    Clearly it was prepared beforehand, given that it was all set up and everything. Still awaiting the explanation for how things can have happen within such a short time frame.
    And how long is that? An hour, a day, a week? You don't think the mist ninja had their resealing tools ready after the Sanbi escaped its human prison? Kyuubi was sealed in minutes, same can hold true for the Sanbi. Still no plothole.

    Quote Quote:
    Considering that the Sarutobi clan didn't join til after the founding, gonna go with after... Not that it would matter, because Sarutobi was still being trained even after Hashirama died. Izuna is the only one mentioned as Madara's younger brother. I don't have to prove it, I'm not the one making the claim that requires such.
    Still doesn't mean Madara or Hashirana weren't among the eldest brothers now were they.

    Quote Quote:
    Really? Even during a time when the average life span was 30 years? During a time where young children were considered old enough to fight and kill in a war? During a time were "many" children were being killed? Couples in this world wouldn't be having children as "adults", since them even getting to adulthood was questionable. The series actually supports my argument more then yours, because there would have been little reason to wait that long before having a child given the likelihood of death before they even reached that age. As for your "examples", Sarutobi has at least one other child, so you can't claim anything towards him. The Suna siblings on the other hand support my argument, since their mother would have been between 11 to 18 when she had Temari (Her twin brother Yashamaru was 27 when he died, years before the start of the series). The same with Hashirama and Madara. And nothing is "critical" to my argument, as I have already pointed out. This is just one of several bricks being used. And as already mentioned, the whole "too old" thing doesn't even work for you anymore.
    And Mito lived into old age. She didn't die at 30 now did she? Just because times were tough doesn't mean Mito had a kid at 10. They may be more inclined to have more children because of the death rates, but did Mito? We don't know. All examples prove otherwise. There is a good 25 years between Konohamaru and Asuma. If Asuma were the younger sibling that means Konohamaru's parent had him in their 30's. Gaara's family also supports my case. If Yanimaru died at 27 (you're using that databook again aren't you.) Then Gaara's mom died at 21 giving birth to Gaara since Gaara killed Yaniimaru when he was 6 Gaara at 6. Kankuro and Termari were born when she was 19? 20? It proves my point. People have children in their adults years regardless of their environment. You have no bricks. You have no foundation. All you have is a house of cards fueled by flawed speculation and a desire for Tobi to not be Obtio.

    Quote Quote:
    What are you talking about? The very next time they met was after Izuna had died and Madara gained EMS, with Madara literally telling them that Izuna had died from the wounds that Tobirama had given him. And then the next day was when they reconciliated, followed by building the village. There wasn't any fighting the village by the Uchihas and they were surrendering before Izuna had died. Please, show me how this Madara is different from this Madara. Or how Hashirama is any different, or how Tobirama is any different. Please show me how you managed to get a whole decade to pass when that makes no sense at all.
    Aside form the eyes, it's hard to say how much time passed between Izuna death and The battle between Madara and Hashirama. The decade thing was my error thinking he got injured during the battle at the river. However, it could easily be years see the two seen each other again. The only phrase the Kishi links between Izuna's death and the village ofrming was "and then one day". How much time that flows is unknown.

    Quote Quote:
    Aside from the fact that Gaara's resurrection wouldn't have been the same as Izuna's resurrection, you're again ignoring we're talking about him as Tobi, who was shown abnormal well before the Obito revelation. Also, considering so little is known about Izuna, to make such a claim is simply ridiculous. And as repeatedly mentioned, it is perfectly possible both physically and chronologically.
    Oh, and assuming Izuna would not age is perfectly fine? Was his body abnormal? Yes, but that doesn't mean it's correct to assume that Tobi wouoldn't age if he was was someone who was 90+ years old. And it's repeatedly shown that Izuna can't be Tobi because he's just too old to be in a young body.

    Quote Quote:
    Except when combined with Senju Dna, as Tobi allured to when he fought Konan. And what? Um, have you forgotten about Kakuzu? Orochimaru? The Toads? Again, numerous characters have extended their lives with unique techniques.
    Just because the Uchiha can peform Izanagi doesn't mean they don't age. Two completely differnet things. A person who is no longer human, a person who hops bodies every 3 years, and Toads. They don't explain how a 90 year old person is in a 30 year old body who doesn't employ any of those techniques.

    Quote Quote:
    And Izuna wouldn't have been either were he Tobi, which is the point you're apparently ignoring. Madara didn't fight the village because Izuna had been killed. I don't know where you pulled that idea from. He fought because he wanted to be Hokage and felt betrayed, both by Hashirama and the Uchiha clan. And aside from your "ten years" not being applicable in any way because that's not how much time had pass, did you miss the part where I said that Madara brought him back to life? The scenario could have easily been that upon gaining the Rinnegan, Madara resurrects his brother, dying soon after. Izuna then pretends to be his brother, manipulating events in a grand scheme to revenge themselves of those who "betrayed" them and to create a world with themselves as rulers.
    If Izuna was Tobi then Tobi would have white hair and be walking around with a staff like an old man. There is nothing to suggest he'd be otherwise. He's a normal Uchiha. Does the Rinnegan work on corpses that have decomposed for years? The fighitng between Madara and Hashirama went on for some time. Not to mention that if Madara used Rinnegan on Izuna he'd be blind since Izuna already gave his eyes to his brother Then Izuna sits around doing nothing for 45 years before putting plans into action after being "resurrected" Still too many plothoies.

    Quote Quote:
    It's not a plothole when that wouldn't even be his age, and even if you do want that to be his age, we still have several 90+ characters running around and keeping up with the 20 year olds. We also have two older characters that still have black hair, so that's not a plothole either, especially when hair color doesn't truly matter. And the whole waiting thing still applies to Obito, because both Obito and Madara waited for no good reason either. At least with Izuna, it could be said that he had been waiting for events to come together. Izuna doesn't have anything that isn't already there regardless, and far less then the ton of plotholes we got with Obito.
    You're right, he's probably older than 90 because he sure as hell isn't 70. Who's still human and fighitng at 90? Kakuzu, but he's he not human anymore. You trying to say an apple is an orange. I mean if Tob was nothing more than a pile of skin and gray phalangi you could have a point, However, Izuna isn't Kakuzu. So the black hair is still an issue you can't overcome. Sure Obito had to wait, but NOT 45 years before doing something. You can't explain that since noting of importance happened that would force him to wait 50 years before doing somthing since he has teh abilities to extract the bijuus from Day1. Obito's issues are nothing compared to these logisitcal fallacies that you're willing to overlook.

    Quote Quote:
    Except the databooks are a correct source, just like the manga. They were both written by the same person and the databooks were specifically written to go along with the manga and show stuff he just didn't have the time or room to put in.
    Databooks are supplementals. Just because they're writen by the same person doesn't mean they're BOTH part of the story. That's the error in logic. I don't have to read the databook to read the story on Naruto. Likewise the data you use for making arguments comes from the manga, not supplementals.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm not invoking anything, I'm merely pointing out things that are already there. There's evidence in both the manga and databooks to support the claim that these are plotholes.
    Nowhere in the manga does it say Kakashi is 30. You got that from the databook to invoke a plothole because you're claiming that Obito can't meet Yahiko because of a time plothole. Tha manga doesn't give us any dates for when Yahiko dies, when Madara meets Obito, or Obito meets Yahiko. But you claim plothole because of an age you read in a databook.

    Quote Quote:
    This isn't a plot-twist. What's incomprehensible is your counter-argument has nothing to do with the problem I listed. Nagato was just a lackey, yet no one had to be dumbed down for him to be a threat. No one had to be dumbed down for Orochimaru to be a threat. The issue isn't that Tobi wasn't the mastermind, it's that his entire plotline relies on everyone else being idiots just to work.
    So a mastermid can only be a strong person, huh? I must have miseed that commandment and Tobi's strength was never challenged by anyone until Konan showed up. Just because Tobi didn't wipe the floor with Naruto or Sasuke demonstrates that everyone was dumbed down in fromt. Tobi just didn't tip his hand. You want to overesitmate Tobi's powers that is up for you, but it doesn't show dumbing down.

    Quote Quote:
    Aside from the already mentioned fact that the databooks are just as valid as the manga, the manga did tell us when Yahiko died. That's the key point. Yahiko died during the Third World War, when they all were grown up. That was retcon to them still being children during the Third World War. And while the manga doesn't give exact ages, it does give us a rough estimation, meaning my argument still works regardless of what you want to consider valid or not.
    Just because they're written by the same person doesn't give them equal weight for making plothole declarations. Dish Kishi give you an exact date when Yahiko died? No? So he died during the Third World War. Was it the begiining, middle, or end? We don't know? When does Obito "die" during the Third World War? Was it the beginning, middle, or end? Oh that isn't provided either, huh? So you can't point directly in the manga that the order of events didn't occur as the way Kishi portrays them. Why? Because Kakashi is allegedly 30 years old even through the manga doesn't tell us that.

    Quote Quote:
    It was literally acknowledged that Kakashi was holding back against him. And just as I said, Kakashi had no role in Obito's redemption. Completely meaningless.
    Unless you wanted to give Kaskashi some much needed character development which he hasn't had for 400 chapt6ers.
    Last edited by Brill; January 14, 2014 at 08:26 AM.

  14. #131
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes, and most of those people died in the aftermath during the power vacuum. People on the left and right were executed, but it wasn't indescriminate. It's not what happened in WWII, Rowanda or Syria.
    Those killed weren't killed “afterward”, they were killed during it. And the reason for it was they were all marked as “enemies of the revolution”, despite whether they actually were or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    If he still suffered from their deaths, but that wasn't made clear. The death's of Nagato's parents was more a transition device to his new family of Yahiko and Konan. During his training with Jiraiya, Nagato comes to the realization of his new goal in life, protecting his friends. However, when that goal fails he then goes postal. If he was still traumatized or reliving the death of his parents as Yahiko was killed, then one could argue that the two events are linked but the events are not connected, they just happen separately.
    How was it not made clear? We had him bring up their deaths with Jiraiya and then specifically mention it with Naruto twice, stating it was one of the two events that changed him. They were linked and it's made quite obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Um post #80. They were rarely around. It wasn't until modern times that they became commonplace in warfare. It's a meaningless emulation if it goes against previous examples and still ends up just the same.
    I'm not sure what kind of dictionary you use, but in my dictionary, the word rarely does not mean never...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Konan was a happy girl when Jiraiya left, the next time you see her she's a hapless pawn in the Yahiko's death, then flash forward 20 years and she's ruthless. But when she changed is never shown, nor the events that changed her perception on life. Was it war or some other tragic event in her life is never given to us.
    You seem to be ignoring that we have seen more then that of her during that time, on two different occasions. It's also interesting how you're willing to presume stuff for one issue and then cut out any presumptions for another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Did Naruto kill all 100,000 zetsu, no. Did he seal the Edo Tensei? No. Did he tell the the Shinobi Alliance that the Zetsu can completely copy the the chakra signature of any shinobi. No. Did he directly release Edo Tensei? No, he did not. Did he teach the Shinobi Alliance to use Earth Wall techniques to buffer the attacks of the Jyuubi? No. So there is a lot that Naruto hasn't done. You may not find it impressive but that is your opinion. I don't need to reread One Piece. Once was enought and it's still a trumped up battle, not even a war. Killing off humonculi was neat, but did it matter in the final battle? Nope.
    Did the Zetsus fighting ever matter? No. They were only an issue when they were transformed, which came to an end with Naruto. Did the Edo Tensei fighting even matter? Apart from the already acknowledged few, no. Sealing them was not any hard task. Heck, more then half of them basically allowed it. Did that even come into play? It wasn't even mentioned after that nor did it matter at that point since Naruto was there already solving the whole transformed Zetsu problem. Did the Alliance release Edo Tensei? No, that was Itachi, a completely separate agent. Did them being taught the Earth Wall achieve anything? No, it failed and they still had to be saved by Minato. Seeing as what I claimed was that the Alliance played no role in achieving anything, not that Naruto did everything, you have yet to disprove me.

    Me not finding it impressive is more of a majorities opinion, because there isn't anything much to find impressive about their involvement. You clearly do need to reread it if that's what you think happen. And yeah, killing off the Homunculi did matter in the final war. Not only did it tie the present events to past events, but their deaths played a key role in defeating Father and providing closure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Why would I comment on the others. They all continue to perpetuate the cycle of hatred that plagues the shinobi world commenting on them would prove nothing. Naruto has been foreshadowed since the Isle of Waves as a ninja who bucks the system. Having Naruto change the minds of others by his nindo is a very naive way to fix a very complex problem so kishi hasn't been directly addressing it. Naruto says he wants to be a shinobi greater than all the Hokage, he will achieve that in this conflict. How it manifests itself is going to be a huge challenge that Kishi may fail at.
    Perhaps because that's the key issue here. And what do you mean that Kishi hasn't addressed it? He has continued to have Naruto solve problems that way and made simply having faith in him the centerpiece of this war. There isn't no “may” about it, it will be a failure. Aside from the fact that being shinobi is part of the problem, as previous mentioned, with the lesser villages absent, any solution achieved thanks to the war will only be a half-measure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Where was that stated? The problems with the Sand program were internal not financial. There's no evidence that they're doing it for money. Just because Fugaku respected Itachi decision to protect the village doesn't prove that he and ther others weren't arrogant in their desire for a coup.
    Here. We were outright told that money was the reason. And again, what arrogance? The coup wasn't a spar of the moment idea or greedy power-grab. It was directly in response to their treatment by the higher-ups, a point that has been reinforced several times now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No, they we're expecting the Sound village, maybe. But not the Sand. Hayate never made it back with the crucial intel. He was tracking Kabuto not the sand leader.
    Um, no. They were expecting Suna, because Suna was the one specifically mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And he failed again in Hueco Mundo. he didn't get his hollow form in check he lost control. That's why the whole thing was unncecssary in the hirst place.
    He didn't fail. He did manage to gain control of it a little during his battle with Grimmjow and more after being pushed to the limit by Ulquiorra.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And how long is that? An hour, a day, a week? You don't think the mist ninja had their resealing tools ready after the Sanbi escaped its human prison? Kyuubi was sealed in minutes, same can hold true for the Sanbi. Still no plothole.
    No, because it would have been a whole different situation. The Sanbi wasn't freed from it's host like the Kyuubi was, it died when they died. And as far as it has been implied, it would have taken time for it to reappear in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Still doesn't mean Madara or Hashirana weren't among the eldest brothers now were they.
    Doesn't mean they were either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And Mito lived into old age. She didn't die at 30 now did she? Just because times were tough doesn't mean Mito had a kid at 10. They may be more inclined to have more children because of the death rates, but did Mito? We don't know. All examples prove otherwise. There is a good 25 years between Konohamaru and Asuma. If Asuma were the younger sibling that means Konohamaru's parent had him in their 30's. Gaara's family also supports my case. If Yanimaru died at 27 (you're using that databook again aren't you.) Then Gaara's mom died at 21 giving birth to Gaara since Gaara killed Yaniimaru when he was 6 Gaara at 6. Kankuro and Termari were born when she was 19? 20? It proves my point. People have children in their adults years regardless of their environment. You have no bricks. You have no foundation. All you have is a house of cards fueled by flawed speculation and a desire for Tobi to not be Obtio.
    There was no way that anyone could have known that the world would change and she would survival beyond those years. It's specifically because times were tough that such things happen. It was that way even in the real world, where they married young because of the low life spans. I suggest you read Otoyomegatari, which does a great job of explaining things. And all examples don't. Again, you're making presumptions without any evidence, as we have no idea what the family situation is of the Sarutobi clan. Temari is four years older, meaning she was conceived when Karura was 16/17. Hardly "adult".

    You're the one who's argument has no bricks or foundation. You're the one who's argument relies upon absolutes. You claimed that it wasn't possible to get pregnant that young, and I showed otherwise. My argument, aside from the fact that there's more to it then simply Mito's age, only requires the possibility and until a definitive answer is granted, it's still perfectly valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Aside form the eyes, it's hard to say how much time passed between Izuna death and The battle between Madara and Hashirama. The decade thing was my error thinking he got injured during the battle at the river. However, it could easily be years see the two seen each other again. The only phrase the Kishi links between Izuna's death and the village ofrming was "and then one day". How much time that flows is unknown.
    There isn't anything to suggest any real length of time had past. It makes no sense that Madara would wait for his attempt at revenge. And I still don't know where you're getting this "one day" thing from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Oh, and assuming Izuna would not age is perfectly fine? Was his body abnormal? Yes, but that doesn't mean it's correct to assume that Tobi wouoldn't age if he was was someone who was 90+ years old. And it's repeatedly shown that Izuna can't be Tobi because he's just too old to be in a young body.
    Who said anything about not aging? Aside from the already disprove issues towards him being old, your argument completely relies upon this random belief that Izuna continued to live, despite the fact that I've already mentioned the idea was that he got revived later on. Point remains, that it's ridiculous for you to keep trying to harp on age and looks when we have characters like Orochimaru and Kakuzu running around. Even more ridiculous when we have old ninjas like Onoki and Chiyo easily keeping up with the young generation. And what "young" body? Tobi had the body of an adult, to the point that no one really questioned the idea that he could really be Madara. You act as if he was running around as a child.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Just because the Uchiha can peform Izanagi doesn't mean they don't age. Two completely differnet things. A person who is no longer human, a person who hops bodies every 3 years, and Toads. They don't explain how a 90 year old person is in a 30 year old body who doesn't employ any of those techniques.
    Again, who said anything about not aging? You're making random and ridiculous counter-arguments to claims that were never put forth. And we're talking about a person who's body was shown not normal, that was shown as basically goo (during Kushina's flashback and the fight with Konan). It is not out of the question that it would not act like a normal body, and that's ignoring the whole revival issue in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    If Izuna was Tobi then Tobi would have white hair and be walking around with a staff like an old man. There is nothing to suggest he'd be otherwise. He's a normal Uchiha. Does the Rinnegan work on corpses that have decomposed for years? The fighitng between Madara and Hashirama went on for some time. Not to mention that if Madara used Rinnegan on Izuna he'd be blind since Izuna already gave his eyes to his brother Then Izuna sits around doing nothing for 45 years before putting plans into action after being "resurrected" Still too many plothoies.
    No he wouldn't. Stop it with the strawman. I already proved that, even ignoring the age issue, that being old does not automatically equal white hair. And I also showed that there are plenty of examples in the series of "old" people running around and keeping up with the current generation. By your logic, Onoki and Chiyo shouldn't have been capable of doing anything. And what the hell are you talking about? You keep trying to disregard what has been established just so you can say it won't work. Again, as I have repeatedly mentioned, we were shown that whoever was Tobi would not have a normal body. This evidence is not being changed. And we know the Rinnegan can revive someone long dead, because we just witness it reviving Madara. The blindness isn't an issue because we knew that Tobi seem to have only one Sharingan and then was introduced to him having an entire storeroom full. I don't know where you got the 45 from, but as said, that's a plothole that exist regardless of who Tobi was.

    There aren't any plotholes, at least not compared to Obito. Let's list them: 1) Why did Obito attack Konoha with the Kyuubi? 2) He had no reason to do that except for revenge, and if it was revenge, then why didn't he go after Kakashi, the guy who actually killed Rin? 3) If he went there for the Kyuubi, why, when the Kyuubi couldn't be taken until last? There was no need to strike then because he had the means to remove a Bijuu from a host regardless of their seal. 4) How is it that Minato did not recognize his own student? 5) And why did Obito talk about waiting years for that moment? He wasn't pretending to be Madara yet and he didn't intend for Minato to survive. 6) Why did he wait 15 years to begin his plan? 7) Why did he even need to form Akatsuki, when we have clearly seen that he would have been capable of sealing the Bijuus all alone? 8) Why did he wipe out the Uchiha clan? He had no beef with them. 9) And on that note, why did he take an interest in Sasuke and then never use him? It wasn't as if Sasuke wasn't available for it. He basically gave Sasuke EMS and then left the boy at his base while he went off to complete the very plan Sasuke was suppose to be used for. 10) Why was he upset at Nagato using Rinne Tensei when he later on made it clear he hadn't intended to revive Madara? 11) Who was he gonna use it on? 12) Why did Obito pretend to be an idiot for the first part of the saga, even around Zetsu? He had no reason to pretend to be a completely different person, Zetsu knew who he was. 13) What was even the point of the Tobi persona? 14) Why did Obito start a war? It hasn't help his goal at all and actually hindered it more. 15) Why did he have Kisame take a fall against Kirabi when Kirabi was needed? If he had taken Kirabi then and there, then all he would have needed was Naruto. 16) Speaking of which, why did Obito allow Naruto to be? He could have easily grabbed him at any moment, especially before anyone knew of his ability. 17) Why did all Obito ever use was Kamui, when he had plenty of powerful techniques available even before gaining the Rinnegan? There isn't any reason that Obito should have limited himself. It isn't as if using them would have spoiled anything. 18) What was the deal with Kisame reconzing him? It should have been clear that he couldn't have been Madara just by looking at him. 19) And how could Obito have formed the Bloody Mist and ruled Kiri? What was the purpose of that? And 20) if this has all been about Rin, why did he not just revive her? He had the means to do so easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You're right, he's probably older than 90 because he sure as hell isn't 70. Who's still human and fighitng at 90? Kakuzu, but he's he not human anymore. You trying to say an apple is an orange. I mean if Tob was nothing more than a pile of skin and gray phalangi you could have a point, However, Izuna isn't Kakuzu. So the black hair is still an issue you can't overcome. Sure Obito had to wait, but NOT 45 years before doing something. You can't explain that since noting of importance happened that would force him to wait 50 years before doing somthing since he has teh abilities to extract the bijuus from Day1. Obito's issues are nothing compared to these logisitcal fallacies that you're willing to overlook.
    As asked again and again, what are you talking about. There was nothing at all suggesting that Tobi was a "normal" person. Given what was shown, he would have been quite like Kakuzu. Still don't know where you're getting the 45 from. And actually, the theory towards that was that he was in Kiri, creating the Bloody Mist. Quite sure that was mentioned before, since it's another plothole. Obito's issues are far greater then any issues with Izuna, because Obito doesn't have the excuse of being weaken or lacking any other abilities, things that were presumed about Tobi before his reveal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Databooks are supplementals. Just because they're writen by the same person doesn't mean they're BOTH part of the story. That's the error in logic. I don't have to read the databook to read the story on Naruto. Likewise the data you use for making arguments comes from the manga, not supplementals.
    You do understand what a "supplemental" is, right? The error in logic has been your claim that the information in the databooks isn't valid, which makes no sense when you acknowledge that they are a supplemental, which by definition is: "something added to complete a thing, make up for a deficiency, or extend or strengthen the whole". The information I'm pointing out is stuff first told in the databook, before making an appearance in the manga. My entire point has been that the information in the databooks are valid to use as evidence, because that's literally what it's meant for, to expand on the manga. I have never once claimed that you would have to read the databooks to read the story of Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Nowhere in the manga does it say Kakashi is 30. You got that from the databook to invoke a plothole because you're claiming that Obito can't meet Yahiko because of a time plothole. Tha manga doesn't give us any dates for when Yahiko dies, when Madara meets Obito, or Obito meets Yahiko. But you claim plothole because of an age you read in a databook.
    Setting aside your silly argument about relying on something that's meant to supplement the series, like I said, the manga itself gives us a rough age: Kakashi was 13 when the Third Word War was going on, which was when Yahiko originally died (Nagato tell us this). During the same time, Itachi was four. Nine years later, Itachi became Anbu captain. It was around that time that Sasuke was seven, right before the massacre happen. That means at the beginning of the series, when Sasuke and Naruto were 12, Kakashi was 27 (like the databook says) and the three year timeskip puts him at 30 (again, like the databook says). So while the manga doesn't outright state it, it does show how many years had past, allowing us to come to the same conclusion. As for the rest of that, the manga tells us that Obito's death and his meeting Madara had to have happen between Kakashi's 13th birthday and when he was 15, since as shown above, he was 27 when the series began, 12 years after Naruto's birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    So a mastermid can only be a strong person, huh? I must have miseed that commandment and Tobi's strength was never challenged by anyone until Konan showed up. Just because Tobi didn't wipe the floor with Naruto or Sasuke demonstrates that everyone was dumbed down in fromt. Tobi just didn't tip his hand. You want to overesitmate Tobi's powers that is up for you, but it doesn't show dumbing down.
    Again, you're throwing out an argument that has nothing to do with what I said. When did I say that Obito wasn't strong? I said, and I quote, "The issue isn't that Tobi wasn't the mastermind, it's that his entire plotline relies on everyone else being idiots just to work.". Had people actually acted in a logical way, events would have never gotten to the recent point. For example, had Minato simply told Sarutobi about the masked man, not only would that have avoided the whole Uchiha massacre, but it would have put Konoha on guard against him. Obito would have had neither Itachi or Sasuke, or a bunch of disposable eyes to use. Heck, had Minato just mentioned that he bore the Hiraishin tag, Sarutobi could have sent a squad of ninjas after him while he was still damaged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Just because they're written by the same person doesn't give them equal weight for making plothole declarations. Dish Kishi give you an exact date when Yahiko died? No? So he died during the Third World War. Was it the begiining, middle, or end? We don't know? When does Obito "die" during the Third World War? Was it the beginning, middle, or end? Oh that isn't provided either, huh? So you can't point directly in the manga that the order of events didn't occur as the way Kishi portrays them. Why? Because Kakashi is allegedly 30 years old even through the manga doesn't tell us that.
    What are you talking about? First off, it doesn't matter when during the war Yahiko died, because that's not the issue. The issue is that originally the Ame trio were shown as older teens/adults during the Third World War. Yahiko was specifically called out as being between 25 and 30. So he clearly wasn't a child when he died. Yet that got retcon to him and the others not looking much older then when Jiraiya left them. For any of that to work, the Third World War would have had to have kept going for at least 10 years, which is impossible. And I already showed that Obito had to have died at most two years before Naruto's birth, which would have put it at the end of the war. There just isn't any way that Yahiko's death could have happen within that timeframe. It's a plothole, regardless of whether you rely solely on the manga or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Unless you wanted to give Kaskashi some much needed character development which he hasn't had for 400 chapt6ers.
    Kakashi wasn't in any need for character development, and the Obito revelation didn't grant him anything. The only thing that came out of it was that we now know how Rin died, which isn't much better.

  15. #132
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member FetherMan's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    damn you, Ridouking, lol.

    Obito got played by Madara. Madara isn't smart, just has common sense and took advantage of an opportunity to exploit a pissed off, broken hearted young man connected to Konoha is all. Afterwards, he discarded the young buck and is now on his way to returning to the world of the living with his original power growing back and eventually carrying out his ultimate plan of Aizening the entire world with a giant, moon-sized eyeball.

    Yeah, that's basically the overall scheme behind the entire series that is Naruto. I want Jiraiya back, f**k the bullsh*t.

    JIRAIYA FOREVER!!!.

    "I did battle with ignorance today and ignorance won".

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  17. #133
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Those killed weren't killed “afterward”, they were killed during it. And the reason for it was they were all marked as “enemies of the revolution”, despite whether they actually were or not.
    Correction. The revolution was very short. The power vaccum that ensued until a government was formed was very long and it still doesn't make it a genocide.

    Quote Quote:
    How was it not made clear? We had him bring up their deaths with Jiraiya and then specifically mention it with Naruto twice, stating it was one of the two events that changed him. They were linked and it's made quite obvious.
    And are they equally weighed by Nagato? They were not. Yahiko's death is what sent him down the path because he realized he was just fooling himself after his parent's death.

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    I'm not sure what kind of dictionary you use, but in my dictionary, the word rarely does not mean never...
    Then stop trying to waive off the tactics as bogus because they're only used during modern times.

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    You seem to be ignoring that we have seen more then that of her during that time, on two different occasions. It's also interesting how you're willing to presume stuff for one issue and then cut out any presumptions for another.
    I can't ignore what doesn't exist. You can't show how the war impacted Konan because there isn't any material on it. Instead you show her wanting to help her freinds as proof, put fail to prove casuality because she would have helped them regardless.

    Quote Quote:
    Did the Zetsus fighting ever matter? No. They were only an issue when they were transformed, which came to an end with Naruto. Did the Edo Tensei fighting even matter? Apart from the already acknowledged few, no. Sealing them was not any hard task. Heck, more then half of them basically allowed it. Did that even come into play? It wasn't even mentioned after that nor did it matter at that point since Naruto was there already solving the whole transformed Zetsu problem. Did the Alliance release Edo Tensei? No, that was Itachi, a completely separate agent. Did them being taught the Earth Wall achieve anything? No, it failed and they still had to be saved by Minato. Seeing as what I claimed was that the Alliance played no role in achieving anything, not that Naruto did everything, you have yet to disprove me.

    Me not finding it impressive is more of a majorities opinion, because there isn't anything much to find impressive about their involvement. You clearly do need to reread it if that's what you think happen. And yeah, killing off the Homunculi did matter in the final war. Not only did it tie the present events to past events, but their deaths played a key role in defeating Father and providing closure.
    Tell that to the 50,000 dead shinobi. Did Naruto determine that the zetsu were masquerding as Alliance Shinobi? No, that was Sakura. Was Naruto able to detect them? Yes. Did he take them all out? No. Most were kileld by the Alliance. Just because the sealings went unabated doesn't triviliaze their importance to the events on the battlefield. They did protect themselves from the first Jyubii blast. Did they assist in removing the bijuus from the Jinchurriki. Yes they did. They may not be great accomplishments in your book, but they are accomplsihments. You can try to dismiss them but it doesn't change the fact that they occurred.

    Quote Quote:
    Perhaps because that's the key issue here. And what do you mean that Kishi hasn't addressed it? He has continued to have Naruto solve problems that way and made simply having faith in him the centerpiece of this war. There isn't no “may” about it, it will be a failure. Aside from the fact that being shinobi is part of the problem, as previous mentioned, with the lesser villages absent, any solution achieved thanks to the war will only be a half-measure.
    Naruto solves the problems in front of him, but he hasn't addressed the biggest challenge assigned to him by Jiraiya and Minato. Breaking the cycle of hate. It's a humongous task and simply talking won't resolve it. Some action must be able to resolve the bitterness between the various Villages have a new outlook on life. Only then will the cycle be broken. Simply beeating Madara isn't gonna do it. That's why I think Kishi will fail to resolve this task leaving Naruto's mark in annals of shinobi history a bit suspect.


    Quote Quote:
    Here. We were outright told that money was the reason. And again, what arrogance? The coup wasn't a spar of the moment idea or greedy power-grab. It was directly in response to their treatment by the higher-ups, a point that has been reinforced several times now.
    And if they had attacked 9 years earlier that would be a valid point. But they didn't. They obviously managed to control Shikaku, maybe the Kazekages' jutsu secured the money to train new forces. We simply don't know the reaason why they attacked the Konoha village.
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    Um, no. They were expecting Suna, because Suna was the one specifically mentioned.
    Using pronouns by themselves proves nothing.

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    He didn't fail. He did manage to gain control of it a little during his battle with Grimmjow and more after being pushed to the limit by Ulquiorra.
    Wrong. His powers during the match with Uquiora (sp?) had the Hollow powers once again overtake Ichigo and leave him just as fast when the battle was done. There was no control. Hueco Mundo was a complete waste of paper.

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    No, because it would have been a whole different situation. The Sanbi wasn't freed from it's host like the Kyuubi was, it died when they died. And as far as it has been implied, it would have taken time for it to reappear in the world.
    The plan was to have the Sanbi break out of Rin and go on a rampage. Even if Rin died the Mist planned to carry her corpse back for extraction. The preparations are there and the time for reformation is implied to be quick.

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    Doesn't mean they were either.
    Considering they were the oldest living, yeah it does.

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    There was no way that anyone could have known that the world would change and she would survival beyond those years. It's specifically because times were tough that such things happen. It was that way even in the real world, where they married young because of the low life spans. I suggest you read Otoyomegatari, which does a great job of explaining things. And all examples don't. Again, you're making presumptions without any evidence, as we have no idea what the family situation is of the Sarutobi clan. Temari is four years older, meaning she was conceived when Karura was 16/17. Hardly "adult".
    I don't need to read about feudal eras. The question is what are the conditions during the nomad era of Naruto. Yes times are tough and people's lifespans are shorter because of constant war and famine, but does that mean the mating practices changed as well? All examples regardless of the people have kids as adults not as preteens. We know plenty about the Sarutobi clan. The Thirds had Asuma well into his 30's. Even though Asuma has a silbing they had Konohamaru at least well into their 30's if their older than Asuma, and mid 20's if not. 17 is a lot older than 10.

    Quote Quote:
    You're the one who's argument has no bricks or foundation. You're the one who's argument relies upon absolutes. You claimed that it wasn't possible to get pregnant that young, and I showed otherwise. My argument, aside from the fact that there's more to it then simply Mito's age, only requires the possibility and until a definitive answer is granted, it's still perfectly valid.
    No I have a foundation and it's called algebra, which you seem to have forgotten. You're whole argument is based on "well it potentially could happen", not that it "did" happen. But the math doesn't add up. Hashirama, Madara, and subsequantly Izuna woulf well be into their 90's in the current time line. Yet Tobi doesn't look like and old man with white/grey hair he looks like a person of middle years. You have yet to explain this, you've come up with several hand-waving theories when upon further analysis completely faill on their face.

    Quote Quote:
    There isn't anything to suggest any real length of time had past. It makes no sense that Madara would wait for his attempt at revenge. And I still don't know where you're getting this "one day" thing from.
    Time between eyes and trucel. It implies some time passed between Madara getting the EMS and reconciliation. It wasn't immediately after Izuna's death.

    Quote Quote:
    Who said anything about not aging? Aside from the already disprove issues towards him being old, your argument completely relies upon this random belief that Izuna continued to live, despite the fact that I've already mentioned the idea was that he got revived later on. Point remains, that it's ridiculous for you to keep trying to harp on age and looks when we have characters like Orochimaru and Kakuzu running around. Even more ridiculous when we have old ninjas like Onoki and Chiyo easily keeping up with the young generation. And what "young" body? Tobi had the body of an adult, to the point that no one really questioned the idea that he could really be Madara. You act as if he was running around as a child.
    None of them were disproven, they're still there. That's been your problem. You just closed your eyes but it didn't make them go away. I find it ironic that you invoke two individuals who removed their humanity years ago as reasons why old people can have black hair. Is Tobi like them? A body-hopping snake or a boneless mass of grey phalangi? He's neither, so why once again why would you assume he wouldn't age normally? He's noithing like them. Apples and oranges. Chiyo keeping up? She uses puppets she doesn't move around like some spry 30-year old. If Oonoki couldn't fly he'd be restrained as well not to mention that he's not of Madara's generration he's younger. Once again, apples and oranges but you're still in denial about him being to damn old

    Quote Quote:
    Again, who said anything about not aging? You're making random and ridiculous counter-arguments to claims that were never put forth. And we're talking about a person who's body was shown not normal, that was shown as basically goo (during Kushina's flashback and the fight with Konan). It is not out of the question that it would not act like a normal body, and that's ignoring the whole revival issue in the first place.
    I'm not saying that his body was normal, but just because it's abnormal means it follows the rules of other abnormal bodies in Naruto. Just because abnormal body A has black hair when its 90 years old mean that abnormal body B will too. That's the fallacy of your argument, Tobi just regenerates damaged body parts, there is nothing to suggest that he wouldn't age normally. Nothing at all.

    Quote Quote:
    No he wouldn't. Stop it with the strawman. I already proved that, even ignoring the age issue, that being old does not automatically equal white hair. And I also showed that there are plenty of examples in the series of "old" people running around and keeping up with the current generation. By your logic, Onoki and Chiyo shouldn't have been capable of doing anything. And what the hell are you talking about? You keep trying to disregard what has been established just so you can say it won't work. Again, as I have repeatedly mentioned, we were shown that whoever was Tobi would not have a normal body. This evidence is not being changed. And we know the Rinnegan can revive someone long dead, because we just witness it reviving Madara. The blindness isn't an issue because we knew that Tobi seem to have only one Sharingan and then was introduced to him having an entire storeroom full. I don't know where you got the 45 from, but as said, that's a plothole that exist regardless of who Tobi was.
    Yes it does. That's what in you're denial about. A 90 year-old person has white hair. In Naruto and the real world. There is nothing to suggest that Tobi doesn't age like everyone else. He's not like Kakuzu and he's not like Orochimaru,, so why would you assume he does not age like everyone else? Why because he can regenerate his body parts? So what? Izuna is older than Onoki and Chiyo and they're pretty slow for ninja. Chiyo stays in place while Onooki flies! C'mon. You're using a flying ninja to cliam that 90+ year old people can run around fighitng ninja 1/3 their age. That's ridiculous.

    Quote Quote:
    There aren't any plotholes, at least not compared to Obito. Let's list them: 1) Why did Obito attack Konoha with the Kyuubi? 2) He had no reason to do that except for revenge, and if it was revenge, then why didn't he go after Kakashi, the guy who actually killed Rin? 3) If he went there for the Kyuubi, why, when the Kyuubi couldn't be taken until last? There was no need to strike then because he had the means to remove a Bijuu from a host regardless of their seal. 4) How is it that Minato did not recognize his own student? 5) And why did Obito talk about waiting years for that moment? He wasn't pretending to be Madara yet and he didn't intend for Minato to survive. 6) Why did he wait 15 years to begin his plan? 7) Why did he even need to form Akatsuki, when we have clearly seen that he would have been capable of sealing the Bijuus all alone? 8) Why did he wipe out the Uchiha clan? He had no beef with them. 9) And on that note, why did he take an interest in Sasuke and then never use him? It wasn't as if Sasuke wasn't available for it. He basically gave Sasuke EMS and then left the boy at his base while he went off to complete the very plan Sasuke was suppose to be used for. 10) Why was he upset at Nagato using Rinne Tensei when he later on made it clear he hadn't intended to revive Madara? 11) Who was he gonna use it on? 12) Why did Obito pretend to be an idiot for the first part of the saga, even around Zetsu? He had no reason to pretend to be a completely different person, Zetsu knew who he was. 13) What was even the point of the Tobi persona? 14) Why did Obito start a war? It hasn't help his goal at all and actually hindered it more. 15) Why did he have Kisame take a fall against Kirabi when Kirabi was needed? If he had taken Kirabi then and there, then all he would have needed was Naruto. 16) Speaking of which, why did Obito allow Naruto to be? He could have easily grabbed him at any moment, especially before anyone knew of his ability. 17) Why did all Obito ever use was Kamui, when he had plenty of powerful techniques available even before gaining the Rinnegan? There isn't any reason that Obito should have limited himself. It isn't as if using them would have spoiled anything. 18) What was the deal with Kisame reconzing him? It should have been clear that he couldn't have been Madara just by looking at him. 19) And how could Obito have formed the Bloody Mist and ruled Kiri? What was the purpose of that? And 20) if this has all been about Rin, why did he not just revive her? He had the means to do so easily.
    And none of these are plotholes. They don't prevent Obito from being Tobi. You just don't like decisions Tobi did/did not make. They're not egregious ones that come up for Izuna foe being the wrong age and 60 year+ absence doing nothing while having hte ability to exact his revenge.

    Quote Quote:
    As asked again and again, what are you talking about. There was nothing at all suggesting that Tobi was a "normal" person. Given what was shown, he would have been quite like Kakuzu. Still don't know where you're getting the 45 from. And actually, the theory towards that was that he was in Kiri, creating the Bloody Mist. Quite sure that was mentioned before, since it's another plothole. Obito's issues are far greater then any issues with Izuna, because Obito doesn't have the excuse of being weaken or lacking any other abilities, things that were presumed about Tobi before his reveal.
    Yeah his body could regenerate lost limbs and things slid through him. The later being a ninjutsu. So just because you can regenerate body part means you can't age. Where does it say that in the manga.

    Quote Quote:
    You do understand what a "supplemental" is, right? The error in logic has been your claim that the information in the databooks isn't valid, which makes no sense when you acknowledge that they are a supplemental, which by definition is: "something added to complete a thing, make up for a deficiency, or extend or strengthen the whole". The information I'm pointing out is stuff first told in the databook, before making an appearance in the manga. My entire point has been that the information in the databooks are valid to use as evidence, because that's literally what it's meant for, to expand on the manga. I have never once claimed that you would have to read the databooks to read the story of Naruto.
    And it's still not part of the story. When you critique a work of fiction you use the story material itslef not the databook, or cliffnotes or any other reference material. That information didn't make an apearance in the manga. If it did you wouldn't need the databook now would you. The problem is that you use the information incorrectly to invoke a "perceived" plothole. You want to confirm something that is already in the manga thar's fine, but it's not ok when the manga doesn't show a plothole, but you claim there is one because I take some data from a a databook, manipulate the data, then invoke a plothole. That is the real error in logic here.

    Quote Quote:
    Setting aside your silly argument about relying on something that's meant to supplement the series, like I said, the manga itself gives us a rough age: Kakashi was 13 when the Third Word War was going on, which was when Yahiko originally died (Nagato tell us this). During the same time, Itachi was four. Nine years later, Itachi became Anbu captain. It was around that time that Sasuke was seven, right before the massacre happen. That means at the beginning of the series, when Sasuke and Naruto were 12, Kakashi was 27 (like the databook says) and the three year timeskip puts him at 30 (again, like the databook says). So while the manga doesn't outright state it, it does show how many years had past, allowing us to come to the same conclusion. As for the rest of that, the manga tells us that Obito's death and his meeting Madara had to have happen between Kakashi's 13th birthday and when he was 15, since as shown above, he was 27 when the series began, 12 years after Naruto's birth.
    First off, the Third Shinobi War was a multi-year conflict. Just because Itachi was 4 during the War doesn't tell us when he entered it. Second, having both Itachi and Sasuke enter the Academy at the same time doesn't establish the age difference between them. So you can't back calculate to figure out how old Kakashi is. Just because Itachi was an Anbu captain at 13 meant he killed his clan when he was 13. It was probably much later. he clearly doesn't look like a 13 year-old during the flashbacks. So yes, you still haven't established Kakashi's age via the manga nor have you shown when the three critical events happening during the war to expose the plothole. Try again.

    Quote Quote:
    Again, you're throwing out an argument that has nothing to do with what I said. When did I say that Obito wasn't strong? I said, and I quote, "The issue isn't that Tobi wasn't the mastermind, it's that his entire plotline relies on everyone else being idiots just to work.". Had people actually acted in a logical way, events would have never gotten to the recent point. For example, had Minato simply told Sarutobi about the masked man, not only would that have avoided the whole Uchiha massacre, but it would have put Konoha on guard against him. Obito would have had neither Itachi or Sasuke, or a bunch of disposable eyes to use. Heck, had Minato just mentioned that he bore the Hiraishin tag, Sarutobi could have sent a squad of ninjas after him while he was still damaged.
    Once again hindsight is 20/20. You think Minato would take the time to hunt down Sarutobi while his wife was being butchered by a mad-man trying to extract the Kyuubi? Not to mention he dies in the resealing to save the village. he didn't have much time or answers to solve anything. It's just petty.

    Quote Quote:
    What are you talking about? First off, it doesn't matter when during the war Yahiko died, because that's not the issue. The issue is that originally the Ame trio were shown as older teens/adults during the Third World War. Yahiko was specifically called out as being between 25 and 30. So he clearly wasn't a child when he died. Yet that got retcon to him and the others not looking much older then when Jiraiya left them. For any of that to work, the Third World War would have had to have kept going for at least 10 years, which is impossible. And I already showed that Obito had to have died at most two years before Naruto's birth, which would have put it at the end of the war. There just isn't any way that Yahiko's death could have happen within that timeframe. It's a plothole, regardless of whether you rely solely on the manga or not.
    Why is Choji's dad's estimate of how old Pain is have to do with when he died? When Yahiko dies he's an adult when he meets Tobi he's an adult. We don't know how much time elasped after their training finished before the Third War began. See my point? You're pulling stuff from everywhere and NONE of it tells us when Yahiko dies. Nothing shows it. It doesn't tell us if he died in the middle or the end? But you still claim plothole exen though you have yet to esatblish it.

    Quote Quote:
    Kakashi wasn't in any need for character development, and the Obito revelation didn't grant him anything. The only thing that came out of it was that we now know how Rin died, which isn't much better.
    And the knowledge which will allow Kakasshi to finally move on. Something he's needed for quite sometime.
    Last edited by Brill; January 21, 2014 at 08:21 AM.

  18. #134
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Correction. The revolution was very short. The power vaccum that ensued until a government was formed was very long and it still doesn't make it a genocide.
    The revolution was far from short. You're gonna have to provide some links to support that claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And are they equally weighed by Nagato? They were not. Yahiko's death is what sent him down the path because he realized he was just fooling himself after his parent's death.
    How were they not equally weighted when Nagato went out of his way to refer to them both as the two worst events in his life, the very two events that caused him to become Pain? You're literally arguing with the manga at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Then stop trying to waive off the tactics as bogus because they're only used during modern times.
    Aside from the fact that wasn't even what I was doing, how does that change the fact that you kept making claims against something I never said?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I can't ignore what doesn't exist. You can't show how the war impacted Konan because there isn't any material on it. Instead you show her wanting to help her freinds as proof, put fail to prove casuality because she would have helped them regardless.
    Doesn't exist? I suggest you reread chapters 509 and 511, where we see plenty of scenes of Konan during the fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Tell that to the 50,000 dead shinobi. Did Naruto determine that the zetsu were masquerding as Alliance Shinobi? No, that was Sakura. Was Naruto able to detect them? Yes. Did he take them all out? No. Most were kileld by the Alliance. Just because the sealings went unabated doesn't triviliaze their importance to the events on the battlefield. They did protect themselves from the first Jyubii blast. Did they assist in removing the bijuus from the Jinchurriki. Yes they did. They may not be great accomplishments in your book, but they are accomplsihments. You can try to dismiss them but it doesn't change the fact that they occurred.
    You mean the dead shinobis that not anyone has given the slightest thought to? As I said, that information didn't even matter or come into play afterwards. And how did Naruto not take out most of them? We were literally shown that the alliance was incapable of handling them, which was the entire reason Naruto was even allowed out onto the battlefield. Please, show me where it was shown that the Alliance took out “most” of them. The fact that there was nothing important about the sealing is what trivializes them. And no they didn't. They tried to protect themselves and ended up failing, which was why Minato had to teleport the blast to the ocean. They assisted in removing the Bijuus thanks to all of Naruto's work, along with his power enabling them to do so. Again, you have yet to disprove what I claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Naruto solves the problems in front of him, but he hasn't addressed the biggest challenge assigned to him by Jiraiya and Minato. Breaking the cycle of hate. It's a humongous task and simply talking won't resolve it. Some action must be able to resolve the bitterness between the various Villages have a new outlook on life. Only then will the cycle be broken. Simply beeating Madara isn't gonna do it. That's why I think Kishi will fail to resolve this task leaving Naruto's mark in annals of shinobi history a bit suspect.
    Which I completely agree with and the entire reason the lesser villages should have been involved, because they were made clear to have been a major factor in said cycle of hatred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And if they had attacked 9 years earlier that would be a valid point. But they didn't. They obviously managed to control Shikaku, maybe the Kazekages' jutsu secured the money to train new forces. We simply don't know the reaason why they attacked the Konoha village.
    No, we do know the reason, as I mentioned before. And they never managed to control the Ichibi, which is why the Kazekage considered him a failure, as we were literally told upon his revival.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Using pronouns by themselves proves nothing.
    Except they weren't by “themselves”, but right after a specific mention of Suna.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Wrong. His powers during the match with Uquiora (sp?) had the Hollow powers once again overtake Ichigo and leave him just as fast when the battle was done. There was no control. Hueco Mundo was a complete waste of paper.
    Clearly you didn't read it, because then you wouldn't be saying that. His fight with Ulquiorra granted him greater control, after which he had no trouble using them as he wished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    The plan was to have the Sanbi break out of Rin and go on a rampage. Even if Rin died the Mist planned to carry her corpse back for extraction. The preparations are there and the time for reformation is implied to be quick.
    Aside from the fact that there wouldn't have been a corpse, as we have seen, there is nothing suggesting that Kiri was gonna bring her corpse back if things had gone as planned. It wasn't implied to be quick at all. Kushina believed that Minato would have plenty of time to raise Naruto before the Kyuubi was reborned. That does not work with that assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Considering they were the oldest living, yeah it does.
    You literally have nothing to support that claim. Once again you're trying to relay upon absolutes when there aren't any.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I don't need to read about feudal eras. The question is what are the conditions during the nomad era of Naruto. Yes times are tough and people's lifespans are shorter because of constant war and famine, but does that mean the mating practices changed as well? All examples regardless of the people have kids as adults not as preteens. We know plenty about the Sarutobi clan. The Thirds had Asuma well into his 30's. Even though Asuma has a silbing they had Konohamaru at least well into their 30's if their older than Asuma, and mid 20's if not. 17 is a lot older than 10.
    Clearly you do if you don't know how it was done in the past. Of course it means that, why would it not? You're literally trying to claim that people were gonna take the huge risk of not having any descendants for not good reason. And “all” examples do not, as I have already established. You don't know much about the Sarutobi clan. How many children did Sarutobi have, how old was his wife, when did they get together, etc? You're making random assumptions without any basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    No I have a foundation and it's called algebra, which you seem to have forgotten. You're whole argument is based on "well it potentially could happen", not that it "did" happen. But the math doesn't add up. Hashirama, Madara, and subsequantly Izuna woulf well be into their 90's in the current time line. Yet Tobi doesn't look like and old man with white/grey hair he looks like a person of middle years. You have yet to explain this, you've come up with several hand-waving theories when upon further analysis completely faill on their face.
    Seeing as your math is based on nothing, there goes that so-called foundation. And I have already explained multiple times why your age argument fails: Several old characters don't look that old, we never even saw his face before the reveal, and most of all, age is moot depending on when Madara revived him. Until you actually analyze what I have said, and stop arguing against claims I never made, you are the last person to comment that something “fails”.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Time between eyes and trucel. It implies some time passed between Madara getting the EMS and reconciliation. It wasn't immediately after Izuna's death.
    The problem is, we saw the actual flashback and we know things happen differently then that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    None of them were disproven, they're still there. That's been your problem. You just closed your eyes but it didn't make them go away. I find it ironic that you invoke two individuals who removed their humanity years ago as reasons why old people can have black hair. Is Tobi like them? A body-hopping snake or a boneless mass of grey phalangi? He's neither, so why once again why would you assume he wouldn't age normally? He's noithing like them. Apples and oranges. Chiyo keeping up? She uses puppets she doesn't move around like some spry 30-year old. If Oonoki couldn't fly he'd be restrained as well not to mention that he's not of Madara's generration he's younger. Once again, apples and oranges but you're still in denial about him being to damn old
    I'm beginning to think that's your problem actually. And yeah, Tobi was quite like them. I'm failing to understand how you are trying to claim he wasn't. Tobi was quite literally a mass of Zetsu goo, as shown several times. It's pretty much apples and apples. What the hell are you talking about? Chiyo was moving around as well as Sakura, and started that fight without even needing her puppets. Onoki has lost his flying a few times an still kept fighting without a problem. I'm not in denial about anything, because there's nothing at all to support this ridiculous claim of yours that he would be “too old” given that we're talking about revival. I'm not sure how I can make that any clearer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    I'm not saying that his body was normal, but just because it's abnormal means it follows the rules of other abnormal bodies in Naruto. Just because abnormal body A has black hair when its 90 years old mean that abnormal body B will too. That's the fallacy of your argument, Tobi just regenerates damaged body parts, there is nothing to suggest that he wouldn't age normally. Nothing at all.
    The fallacy is your argument. The fact that he has an abnormal body means foremost, you can't exactly apply normal rules to it and more importantly, that there is an age issue here when we're talking about him getting revived. And quite sure he doesn't age, given that neither of the Zetsus have aged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes it does. That's what in you're denial about. A 90 year-old person has white hair. In Naruto and the real world. There is nothing to suggest that Tobi doesn't age like everyone else. He's not like Kakuzu and he's not like Orochimaru,, so why would you assume he does not age like everyone else? Why because he can regenerate his body parts? So what? Izuna is older than Onoki and Chiyo and they're pretty slow for ninja. Chiyo stays in place while Onooki flies! C'mon. You're using a flying ninja to cliam that 90+ year old people can run around fighitng ninja 1/3 their age. That's ridiculous.
    You're the one in denial. You can't make the claim that he would for sure have white hair, because that's not true as I previous showed. It's just as possible that he could have had black hair even at that age. And your comments about Chiyo and Onoki are jokes. But more importantly, age isn't an issue here, because as I have repeatedly tried to get you to understand, it was originally presumed that Izuna was somehow revived, explaining his “weaken” state and absents of moves outside of phasing. What's ridiculous is you keep trying to push this age issue when there was nothing to place when Tobi first appeared before the reveal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And none of these are plotholes. They don't prevent Obito from being Tobi. You just don't like decisions Tobi did/did not make. They're not egregious ones that come up for Izuna foe being the wrong age and 60 year+ absence doing nothing while having hte ability to exact his revenge.
    These are all plotholes, all the reasons why the majority of people didn't buy the whole Tobi=Obito twist and called bullshit on it. They are far more egregious then the nonexistence issues you proclaim that Izuna have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yeah his body could regenerate lost limbs and things slid through him. The later being a ninjutsu. So just because you can regenerate body part means you can't age. Where does it say that in the manga.
    No, having a body that's implied to be nothing more then goo is what would suggest that, putting him on the same level as Kakuzu. Not that I ever even mentioned that he “wouldn't” age, so that's just another random strawman by you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And it's still not part of the story. When you critique a work of fiction you use the story material itslef not the databook, or cliffnotes or any other reference material. That information didn't make an apearance in the manga. If it did you wouldn't need the databook now would you. The problem is that you use the information incorrectly to invoke a "perceived" plothole. You want to confirm something that is already in the manga thar's fine, but it's not ok when the manga doesn't show a plothole, but you claim there is one because I take some data from a a databook, manipulate the data, then invoke a plothole. That is the real error in logic here.
    The databooks are story material. That's their entire purpose. And I have showed that the manga contains similar enough information to show the plotholes regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    First off, the Third Shinobi War was a multi-year conflict. Just because Itachi was 4 during the War doesn't tell us when he entered it. Second, having both Itachi and Sasuke enter the Academy at the same time doesn't establish the age difference between them. So you can't back calculate to figure out how old Kakashi is. Just because Itachi was an Anbu captain at 13 meant he killed his clan when he was 13. It was probably much later. he clearly doesn't look like a 13 year-old during the flashbacks. So yes, you still haven't established Kakashi's age via the manga nor have you shown when the three critical events happening during the war to expose the plothole. Try again.
    First off, it doesn't matter when he “entered” it, what matters is when it ended and Itachi's age helps us find that answer. Secondly, yeah, knowing Sasuke's age at that time does help, because we already knew Itachi's age. Not to mention, that we know Sasuke's specific age and when he was born, giving us a viable timeline. Third, Itachi committed the massacre soon after joining the Anbu. We were shown when he entered it, it was a key plot point. So it's you who needs to "try again".

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Once again hindsight is 20/20. You think Minato would take the time to hunt down Sarutobi while his wife was being butchered by a mad-man trying to extract the Kyuubi? Not to mention he dies in the resealing to save the village. he didn't have much time or answers to solve anything. It's just petty.
    What's petty is you ignoring the actual manga. We know that Minato spoke with Sarutobi before he died because he spoke about his wishes to have Naruto seen as a hero for containing the Kyuubi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Why is Choji's dad's estimate of how old Pain is have to do with when he died? When Yahiko dies he's an adult when he meets Tobi he's an adult. We don't know how much time elasped after their training finished before the Third War began. See my point? You're pulling stuff from everywhere and NONE of it tells us when Yahiko dies. Nothing shows it. It doesn't tell us if he died in the middle or the end? But you still claim plothole exen though you have yet to esatblish it.
    Because for him to be seen as that old, he must have died around that age, since a corpse wouldn't age. And no, when the Ame orphans met Obito, they were still children. And what you seem to keep ignoring is that it doesn't matter when it "began", it matters when it ended, and we know it ended before Minato became Hokage. Yahiko couldn't have died during the Third World War because the Third World War didn't last for much longer after Obito "died".

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And the knowledge which will allow Kakasshi to finally move on. Something he's needed for quite sometime.
    There is nothing supporting your claim that Kakashi has needed to move on, because you don't have a single piece of evidence to suggest that he hadn't moved on at this point. And more importantly, how is any of this suppose to help him move on? Having to see Obito die once again, that sort of seems like it would cause him to continue to grieve, since the death will now be even fresher. Plus, this doesn't solve anything with him having to grieve for Rin, except maybe bringing up guilt now that he's seem what it has caused firsthand.

  19. #135
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member jiraiyanindo's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyamoto View Post
    Dissapointment ? No , I don't think so . In this arc , we get to know a lot .
    1. Jūbi
    2. The masked man is actually Obito .
    3. Hokages
      • We get to know about Minato's character better .
      • Tobirama's character .
      • Hashirama's character .
    4. Sasuke's decision .
    5. Shinju
    6. Sage's backstory
    7. The Jinchruuriki of the Jūbi

    These are the things that I have in mind right now . Although I respect all the opinions , saying that this arc is a dissapointment ... I think you're going too far .
    I agree. I think this is a great arc. I've never understood the people who constantly flame kishi for the way he portrays his villians. I like that every hero has some bad and every villain started off good. This, to me, is a more apt reflection of real life. It also connects the story to the reader cus we can all identify with thinking we are doing something for the right reasons when in actuality, our actions are causing someone else pain.

    In real life there are shades of grey....conflicted heros and good intention villians. This is off topic but it kind of resembles star wars in a way. The popularity of stars wars derived from the notion that small innocent actions can lead down a dangerous path and have large consequences. People relate to this notion and kishi has modeled his manga in a similar way.

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