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Thread: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread <3

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member IChallengeYou!'s Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Spoiler: shit show


    Wow! I was actually trying to argue with someone who throws nothing but childish remarks, massive contradictions (Obito is even ashamed) and petty insults, and then goes on to tell me go get a dictionary. But at the same time, my spellchecker went crazy while I was going through your quotes...

    If I'd have a choice between my spellchecker and your nonsense, I'll take the checker.

    Your credibility : -10/10.

    I should've known better...
    Last edited by IChallengeYou!; June 26, 2013 at 02:20 PM.

  2. #32
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post

    Wow! I was actually trying to argue with someone who throws nothing but childish remarks, massive contradictions (Obito is even ashamed) and petty insults, and then goes on to tell me go get a dictionary. But at the same time, my spellchecker went crazy while I was going through your quotes...

    If I'd have a choice between my spellchecker and your nonsense, I'll take the checker.

    Your credibility : -10/10.

    I should've known better...
    Ah yes, when all else fails, attack spelling! It's the oldest, and saddest play in the book. Next time, maybe you can provide evidence to support your claims instead of just blurting out what you think expecting us to believe it without questioning it. You'll have better luck in the kiddie pool.

    And, for the record, you started with the snide comments.

  3. #33
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Yeah, this war as been a major disappointment, and I can't see how anyone can say differently. This war is nothing like a war should be, real or fictional. It's been more like a bunch of random fights linked together randomly. There's an obvious lack of cohesion and consistency throughout the whole arc.

    Issue 1: This war has no reason for happening. There's no logical reason behind the war other then Kishi's love for fan-service. Obito had no need to declare war against the five nations just to get his hands on the last two Jinchuurikis, especially since he had to actually allow one of those Jinchuurikis to go free. All this war has done has caused him needless problems that could have easily been avoided. The very fact that he required external aid from Kabuto to even last a day says plenty.

    Issue 2: This war not being a "war". As said before, this war can't even be called a war with the way it has been handled. It's nothing but a bunch of random fights all tied together simply because they happen near one another. And this war can't be compared to "other shounen wars". Those wars had an actual purpose, and lived up to the idea of war.

    Issue 3: The obvious lack of tension. From the very beginning, the Alliance has had the edge against the villains, and they maintained that edge nearly the entire arc. The only time there was any real tension was with the revival of Edo Madara, and Kishi threw in so many psyche! moments that even that lost any tension. It didn't help that Madara basically decided to simply screw around instead of actually trying to bring about the plan he had wasted his life on. More importantly, there has been no consequences to things. We're told that Naruto couldn't use his new mode else he would kill himself, yet right after he constantly employs it without any risk.

    There was previous mention about "deaths of secondary characters" being pointless. The point isn't the deaths, it's that they face the possibility of death, which creates tension and makes us actually care. The heroes always succeeding without any real challenge is lame. what's the point of caring about them fighting if we don't have to worry about them losing? Those other shounen wars, there was a clear feeling of tension in them. Even with Bleach's Winter War, it wasn't clear who was safe and who was on the chopping block.

    Issue 4: Lame villains. As touched upon previously, the villains of this war barely pose any challenge. We were told about these legendary ninjas from the past, but they proved as impressive as random fodder. Their introduction was nothing more then fan-service and once that was given, they were gone. Even Madara, who started off so impressive, quickly became boring with his habit of just letting the Alliance do as they please. And the fact that the heroes outnumber the villains just make things worst.

    Issue 5: Horrible pacing. Probably the second worst offense, the crappy pacing. Even if it was only fan-service, things would have been nice had we been given some interesting fights. But all that we were given were teasing of what could have been. And in their place, we're given nearly a hundred chapters of Naruto vs Obito where the plot barely develops. We got a bunch of needlessly boring chapters with only a handful of interesting ones.

    Issue 6: Obito. The worst offense of all was the revelation that Tobi was Obito. Not only did it retcon hundreds of past chapters, but it accomplished nothing more then a pointless attempt to provoke drama, which it failed at. The very fact that Obito basically spent hundreds of chapter ignoring Kakashi makes his sudden interest stupid and random. And we really didn't need another person to be a counterpart with Naruto. We already have half a dozen people for that, one more was unneeded. Heck, Nagato was only a arc before and was a world's better counterpart. Kishi should have stuck with Tobi being Madara or more preferably, Izuna. It would have been the prefect opportunely to give Sasuke a counterpart other then Orochimaru.

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  5. #34
    Reviewer 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member otomo20's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Yeah I disliked this war as well, it just never seemed threatening and too few people died, I would have liked the konoha 12 to become like the konoha 7 or something, it just seems wrong that so few people have died.

    also the edo tensei was annoying, why not make a few super powerful zetsus and have them face off against a few people? it seems better.

    I dunno, the whole arc has been a let down, ever since kisame died

  6. #35
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    GRARGHHH that page hurts my head. Chakra ghost mechanic always pissed me off. "If you're an orphan, you have to learn to develop your own sense of purpose and source of love... unless your dead mother and father appear to you like Ben fucking Kenobi and fill your heart with love and tell you that you're destined to save the world."

    Minato could do it through sealing. I think he also mentioned 'letting' Kushina see Naruto again, which means he was also responsible for that. If Naruto's method is anything like Minato's, there should be little chakra ghosts living inside all the people he touched now, waiting for them to be at their downest points before Naruto pops up in their head to tell them they're totally awesome.

    The ... ninja... holy ghost...
    I don't like it either but that's how the manga explains it, and thus that's what we have to go on
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  7. #36
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    The Arc went to hell when the fighting actually started. The Edo Tensei aspect would have been awesome if it had a real impact, but every one of the Edo Tensei easily lost.

  8. #37
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Rose View Post
    I just asked myself when Minato learned how to use the Kyuubi-cloak, given he was, like, dead ...
    Wasn't he "fighting" inside the Shinigami stomach?
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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  10. #38
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Sarutobi said it best way back in the day when he admonished Orochimaru before their battle: 'nothing good will come from trifling with time!'

    Kishi really should have heeded his own advice. This painfully long, drawn-out war arc essentially boiled down to a set of top trumps: past vs present, which he's never been able to reconcile because of one obvious glaring flaw:

    All of the dead warriors are clearly superior to the current ones.

    They have to be. Otherwise why bring them back?

    Kishi writes great villains because he writes them as adults with serious powers and motives (excluding Obito after being de-masked). However, he's doing a shonen manga with dumb, plot-armoured protagonists, which means the villains must and do always lose. The only way to do this is by nerfing them with stupidity/arrogance/memory lapses or having the protagonist/s overpower them. A bunch of naive kids couldn't hope to outwit an experienced veteran in real life, even if he was weaker than them collectively, extolled by Kishi himself in the Sasuke/Itachi fight when Black Zetsu says: 'a master with a stone can win against a novice with a shuriken'.

    Back in the day there was a suspension of disbelief surrounding the manga, something that's clearly evaporated, if only going by this board. All I see now are threads griping about how shitty Naruto has become in one way or another, and they're rightfully placed, because it HAS become shitty.

    People who say don't-like-it-don't-read-it can go fuck themselves too. Kishi doesn't owe me anything, but I reserve the right to criticise anything for its flaws, and his manga has literally reached the bare bones of its former quality.

    Edo Tensei vs living things was bad enough, but now we have ET vs ET in Hashirama VS Madara, the epitome of pointless showcasing.

    Orochimaru always was and is a cool, realistic character, but he's long since been cast into complete irrelevance.

    Now Sasuke has become good-but-not-quite-good, he has no clear motives and frankly I'm so indifferent to what he does now I can't even say he's boring, just irrelevant.

    Naruto can just go fuck himself. WAH WAH MY FRIENDS. WAH WAH ENTRUSTED. WAH WAH PEACE. He's become the goodly ninja version of those Westboro Baptist Church psychos. He's not so much a person now as just a loudspeaker-equipped megabus for a particular message.

    In summary: boring, boring, boring, bloated, overblown, hashed out, strung-along, desperately weary arc doing nothing but smothering the fond memories of the previous ones.

  11. #39
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity REN KOUEN's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    Lol, don't whine/moan/cry when Madara butchers *insert favorite character* next week, k?

    There's one villain and countless good guys left on the field - I wonder where will all the casualties come from in the foreseeable future?

    And it's amazing that people still believe in that mooneye nonsense, Madara is becoming the Jinchuriki and you think it's all for an illusion?

    If illusion is all his wanted, he could just let Obito do it.

    Why must it be him who gets to become the Jinchuriki? Because his illusion skillz are better? Childish people comes up with really childish theories and then whine on why the story / characters are childish, typical everyday forum.
    i would love nothing more than to see madara go on a rampage

    this manga needs that to happen desperately

    ---------- Post added at 11:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ermac View Post
    Sarutobi said it best way back in the day when he admonished Orochimaru before their battle: 'nothing good will come from trifling with time!'

    Kishi really should have heeded his own advice. This painfully long, drawn-out war arc essentially boiled down to a set of top trumps: past vs present, which he's never been able to reconcile because of one obvious glaring flaw:

    All of the dead warriors are clearly superior to the current ones.

    They have to be. Otherwise why bring them back?

    Kishi writes great villains because he writes them as adults with serious powers and motives (excluding Obito after being de-masked). However, he's doing a shonen manga with dumb, plot-armoured protagonists, which means the villains must and do always lose. The only way to do this is by nerfing them with stupidity/arrogance/memory lapses or having the protagonist/s overpower them. A bunch of naive kids couldn't hope to outwit an experienced veteran in real life, even if he was weaker than them collectively, extolled by Kishi himself in the Sasuke/Itachi fight when Black Zetsu says: 'a master with a stone can win against a novice with a shuriken'.

    Back in the day there was a suspension of disbelief surrounding the manga, something that's clearly evaporated, if only going by this board. All I see now are threads griping about how shitty Naruto has become in one way or another, and they're rightfully placed, because it HAS become shitty.

    People who say don't-like-it-don't-read-it can go fuck themselves too. Kishi doesn't owe me anything, but I reserve the right to criticise anything for its flaws, and his manga has literally reached the bare bones of its former quality.

    Edo Tensei vs living things was bad enough, but now we have ET vs ET in Hashirama VS Madara, the epitome of pointless showcasing.

    Orochimaru always was and is a cool, realistic character, but he's long since been cast into complete irrelevance.

    Now Sasuke has become good-but-not-quite-good, he has no clear motives and frankly I'm so indifferent to what he does now I can't even say he's boring, just irrelevant.

    Naruto can just go fuck himself. WAH WAH MY FRIENDS. WAH WAH ENTRUSTED. WAH WAH PEACE. He's become the goodly ninja version of those Westboro Baptist Church psychos. He's not so much a person now as just a loudspeaker-equipped megabus for a particular message.

    In summary: boring, boring, boring, bloated, overblown, hashed out, strung-along, desperately weary arc doing nothing but smothering the fond memories of the previous ones.
    the end will probably be naruto and sasuke vs madara for sll the marbles with everyone else watching

    or dead

  12. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Yeah, this war as been a major disappointment, and I can't see how anyone can say differently. This war is nothing like a war should be, real or fictional. It's been more like a bunch of random fights linked together randomly. There's an obvious lack of cohesion and consistency throughout the whole arc.
    The war has met the basic requirements for a war. Troop deployments, flanking movemernts, reinforcements, commando/special forces attacks, recon, beach side invasions. Long range and short range combat with thousands of people. Technically, it's a war. Stylistically it may not be what you want, but all the parts are there.

    Quote Quote:
    Issue 1: This war has no reason for happening. There's no logical reason behind the war other then Kishi's love for fan-service. Obito had no need to declare war against the five nations just to get his hands on the last two Jinchuurikis, especially since he had to actually allow one of those Jinchuurikis to go free. All this war has done has caused him needless problems that could have easily been avoided. The very fact that he required external aid from Kabuto to even last a day says plenty.
    There is a logical reason for the war. One of the themes Kishi has laid out is that Naruto is going to become the greatest ninja of all time, surpass even the kages. For that he needs a stage to accomplish this. Team 7 and maybe Gai's team could take out the last remaining Akatsuki. Naruto has already been acknowledged by his own village but he has not been acknowledged by the others. The only way for that to happen is if all the villages are involved in the same conflict and Naruto shines in their presence. The only venue that allows that to happen is a war.

    Quote Quote:
    Issue 2: This war not being a "war". As said before, this war can't even be called a war with the way it has been handled. It's nothing but a bunch of random fights all tied together simply because they happen near one another. And this war can't be compared to "other shounen wars". Those wars had an actual purpose, and lived up to the idea of war.
    Most wars are random fights between people. It's loosely controlled chaos, instead a better comparison is forces vs. forces and Kishi did do this in this series.. As stated above, several actions that occur during war were aptly shown in the chapters. It's intensity may not be to your liking but it has all the parts of a war. If you're expecting battles on par with Berserk or Claymore, that's not gonna happen. This is shounen not seinen. Many people want the blood/body part count to rise in this series, elevating Naruto to a misconceived level of maturity that it really isn't.

    Quote Quote:
    Issue 3: The obvious lack of tension. From the very beginning, the Alliance has had the edge against the villains, and they maintained that edge nearly the entire arc. The only time there was any real tension was with the revival of Edo Madara, and Kishi threw in so many psyche! moments that even that lost any tension. It didn't help that Madara basically decided to simply screw around instead of actually trying to bring about the plan he had wasted his life on. More importantly, there has been no consequences to things. We're told that Naruto couldn't use his new mode else he would kill himself, yet right after he constantly employs it without any risk.

    There was previous mention about "deaths of secondary characters" being pointless. The point isn't the deaths, it's that they face the possibility of death, which creates tension and makes us actually care. The heroes always succeeding without any real challenge is lame. what's the point of caring about them fighting if we don't have to worry about them losing? Those other shounen wars, there was a clear feeling of tension in them. Even with Bleach's Winter War, it wasn't clear who was safe and who was on the chopping block.
    There have been many sources of tension in this series, from the appearance of the Edo Tenseo, the attack of the white zetsu on the medical corps, the apparent killing of Hinata, the appearance of the Gedo statue near the coastline, the appearance of Madara, the destruction of the Alliance HQ, and last of all the Jyuubi. Some tensions were fleeting and some lasted several chapters, but there is no set formula on how much tension a war needs to have.

    The threat of death was there. Sai, Omoi, and Lee saw people die right next to them. Do we really need scenes of Lee getting stabbed mutliple times or having Hinata getting gang-raped to demonstrate the severity of war? Granted, the white zetsu didn't appear intimidating on the open battlefield so dying there would be super-lame, but getting killed by a doppleganger of a fellow comrade, that paralyzed the Alliance into complete dysfunction.

    Quote Quote:
    Issue 4: Lame villains. As touched upon previously, the villains of this war barely pose any challenge. We were told about these legendary ninjas from the past, but they proved as impressive as random fodder. Their introduction was nothing more then fan-service and once that was given, they were gone. Even Madara, who started off so impressive, quickly became boring with his habit of just letting the Alliance do as they please. And the fact that the heroes outnumber the villains just make things worst.
    And the alternative is? 80,000 shinobi vs.2 Akatsuki? That's even lamer. A secret force of 100,000 rogue shinobi? That's the biggest retcon ever. Enemy lieutenants are usually feeble and lame. The Espada in Bleach. Just as lame. The humonculai in Full Metal Alchemist during the coup de tat? Just as lame. They may be more stylish than Edo Tensei, but the Edo Tensei have the additional restriction-that they can't be destroyed. So you can have Lee battle an Edo Tensei, but in the end it's just going to get sealed. Shino vs. a Mist 7-swordsman-sealed. Hinata vs. Deidara-sealed. So you can have all these one-on-one battles but they'll all proceed the same way-some uber attack that evenrtually results in a sealing. Kish decided to take the focus away from that and it probably was the better call, but the downside is some uninspiring battles.

    Quote Quote:
    Issue 5: Horrible pacing. Probably the second worst offense, the crappy pacing. Even if it was only fan-service, things would have been nice had we been given some interesting fights. But all that we were given were teasing of what could have been. And in their place, we're given nearly a hundred chapters of Naruto vs Obito where the plot barely develops. We got a bunch of needlessly boring chapters with only a handful of interesting ones.
    Yes, the chapter pacing and pacing of the arc as a whole has been poor. Kishi spread things out too much and he has to spend many chapters in transition so everything can catch up. A case of juggling too many eggs.

    Quote Quote:
    Issue 6: Obito. The worst offense of all was the revelation that Tobi was Obito. Not only did it retcon hundreds of past chapters, but it accomplished nothing more then a pointless attempt to provoke drama, which it failed at. The very fact that Obito basically spent hundreds of chapter ignoring Kakashi makes his sudden interest stupid and random. And we really didn't need another person to be a counterpart with Naruto. We already have half a dozen people for that, one more was unneeded. Heck, Nagato was only a arc before and was a world's better counterpart. Kishi should have stuck with Tobi being Madara or more preferably, Izuna. It would have been the prefect opportunely to give Sasuke a counterpart other then Orochimaru.
    Why would anyone care if Tobi was Izuna? What relationship does Izuna have with anyone in the current shinobi world? He'd be a withered corpse who couldn't steal candy from a baby. Obito at least has a link to the current system, Kakashi. Sure, Tobi could have dogged Kakashi more, but then there would be no mystery. I think the problem with Obito is that people wanted Tobi to be this uber evil mysterious villian, and he wasn't. Tobi was aloof and cryptic, but never revealing. He had no identity (because people would immediately know it's Obito if he did) and so when the mask broke, people were disappointed. I'm not crazy about Obito, but I'm ok with Obito because he's just a lackey and not the main antagonist. Obito is much needed character development for Kakashi who has been more ignored than Sakura since Part 2 began. Kakashi needs this fight so that he can move on and stop going to that stupid shrine every morning. And if peeople think that Obito's 'retconned" hair causes the war to fail, they need to focus on more meaningful examples.

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  14. #41
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    The war has met the basic requirements for a war. Troop deployments, flanking movemernts, reinforcements, commando/special forces attacks, recon, beach side invasions. Long range and short range combat with thousands of people. Technically, it's a war. Stylistically it may not be what you want, but all the parts are there.
    Wars are more then that. By that logic, a reenactment can be called an actual war. Not to mention that only one side is doing any of that stuff, and no war only involves a single side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    There is a logical reason for the war. One of the themes Kishi has laid out is that Naruto is going to become the greatest ninja of all time, surpass even the kages. For that he needs a stage to accomplish this. Team 7 and maybe Gai's team could take out the last remaining Akatsuki. Naruto has already been acknowledged by his own village but he has not been acknowledged by the others. The only way for that to happen is if all the villages are involved in the same conflict and Naruto shines in their presence. The only venue that allows that to happen is a war.
    No, there is no logical reason for this war. Naruto doesn't need to "shine" in the presences of every single ninja. He didn't need to shine in the presences of every single Konoha ninja to become acknowledged by them, nor for the Suna ninjas to be acknowledged by them. They simply needed to later hear of his amazing feats and that was enough. Heck, we were clearly shown that Naruto didn't have to be on hand for his words to have an affect, as proven by Gaara changing the entire Alliance's attitude through his words. So Naruto could have received the same results by simply impressing the Kages and having his feats passed on to everyone else through them. Heck, Naruto defeating the "legendary Madara" and saving the entire world clearly would have made a real impact regardless of who saw it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Most wars are random fights between people. It's loosely controlled chaos, instead a better comparison is forces vs. forces and Kishi did do this in this series.. As stated above, several actions that occur during war were aptly shown in the chapters. It's intensity may not be to your liking but it has all the parts of a war. If you're expecting battles on par with Berserk or Claymore, that's not gonna happen. This is shounen not seinen. Many people want the blood/body part count to rise in this series, elevating Naruto to a misconceived level of maturity that it really isn't.
    No, most wars are purposeful fights. They are ever rarely random, except perhaps the triggering conflict. Some "actions" occurring does not make it a war. And seeing as I specifically mentioned "other shounen wars", you writing off my expectations as wanting a "seinen style" conflict is just silly. And even if i was expecting such, it wouldn't be attempting to elevate this series to a level that hasn't already been hinted at. We're talking about a series about assassins, a series that involved children murdering each other and several cases of genocide. Heck, Part One was quite mature in that regard. It would be nothing more then wanting a return to the basics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    There have been many sources of tension in this series, from the appearance of the Edo Tenseo, the attack of the white zetsu on the medical corps, the apparent killing of Hinata, the appearance of the Gedo statue near the coastline, the appearance of Madara, the destruction of the Alliance HQ, and last of all the Jyuubi. Some tensions were fleeting and some lasted several chapters, but there is no set formula on how much tension a war needs to have.

    The threat of death was there. Sai, Omoi, and Lee saw people die right next to them. Do we really need scenes of Lee getting stabbed mutliple times or having Hinata getting gang-raped to demonstrate the severity of war? Granted, the white zetsu didn't appear intimidating on the open battlefield so dying there would be super-lame, but getting killed by a doppleganger of a fellow comrade, that paralyzed the Alliance into complete dysfunction.
    Not really. "Fleeting" tensions isn't tension at all. And the "formula" is enough to keep things interesting. Introducing possible consequences and then ignoring them is the very opposite of that.

    Nameless fodder dying means nothing. That's about as important as the Zetsus dying. And what? Where was it even implied that the people disappointed in this war desired mutilation and rape? Wanting them to fight like they're in actual danger is hardly calling for gang-rapes. And "paralyzed the Alliance in compete dysfunction"? When did that happen. Not only was the consequences of the clones barely gotten into, but Naruto arrived right after to solve everything. Heck, even before Naruto had arrived, they had already come up with some solutions as shown by Shikamaru's squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And the alternative is? 80,000 shinobi vs.2 Akatsuki? That's even lamer. A secret force of 100,000 rogue shinobi? That's the biggest retcon ever. Enemy lieutenants are usually feeble and lame. The Espada in Bleach. Just as lame. The humonculai in Full Metal Alchemist during the coup de tat? Just as lame. They may be more stylish than Edo Tensei, but the Edo Tensei have the additional restriction-that they can't be destroyed. So you can have Lee battle an Edo Tensei, but in the end it's just going to get sealed. Shino vs. a Mist 7-swordsman-sealed. Hinata vs. Deidara-sealed. So you can have all these one-on-one battles but they'll all proceed the same way-some uber attack that evenrtually results in a sealing. Kish decided to take the focus away from that and it probably was the better call, but the downside is some uninspiring battles.
    First off, as mentioned, it could have easily been Konoha/Suna against Kumo/Iwa/Kiri, with them being manipulated into fighting each other to weaken themselves and at as a distraction while the Juubi was revived. That would have created the same dilemma with Naruto, who would have had to choose whether to go help his friends or trust in them to handle things while he dealt with Madara. And heck, even if all the ninjas seeing Naruto save the day was a must, you still would have been able to have them eventually come together to witness the final fight. If anything, Naruto appealing to both sides to set aside their differences and band together would have been a killer heroic moment showing how he surpass his predecessors. Secondly, there already exist a force of thousands of secret ninjas that Obito could have called upon: the barely seen lesser villages. It was a whole key point with Nagato how the lesser villages suffered due to the major villages, and it would have made prefect sense that they would want revenge. Throw in an offer of the Bijuus d they wouldn't have no reason not to side with Obito. It's not as if Kishi had other plans for them. They aren't even apart of the current situation. You could even add in all those prisoners of Orochimaru that got set free and the Bijuus themselves. Third, Lame? The Espada and Homunculus weren't lame. They and how they were handled were some of the most interesting parts of those wars. I can't think of any series that the lieutenants/mid-bosses were lame. Perhaps that's why you don't have an issue with this war, you have lower expectations. And fourth, the whole "can't be killed" thing barely mattered. Between them releasing themselves and the Alliance sealing them, it's not even as if anything came from it. The only Edo summons that made use of that was Itachi and Madara. With the rest of them, it really didn't matter because they got dealt with juts as quickly as if they were mortal. It's pointless to introduce immortal enemies and not make use of that. Throw in the fact that Kishi had the Edo summons holding back, and they could have simply been replaced with a bunch of regular strong and mortal fodders with the same results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes, the chapter pacing and pacing of the arc as a whole has been poor. Kishi spread things out too much and he has to spend many chapters in transition so everything can catch up. A case of juggling too many eggs.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Why would anyone care if Tobi was Izuna? What relationship does Izuna have with anyone in the current shinobi world? He'd be a withered corpse who couldn't steal candy from a baby. Obito at least has a link to the current system, Kakashi. Sure, Tobi could have dogged Kakashi more, but then there would be no mystery. I think the problem with Obito is that people wanted Tobi to be this uber evil mysterious villian, and he wasn't. Tobi was aloof and cryptic, but never revealing. He had no identity (because people would immediately know it's Obito if he did) and so when the mask broke, people were disappointed. I'm not crazy about Obito, but I'm ok with Obito because he's just a lackey and not the main antagonist. Obito is much needed character development for Kakashi who has been more ignored than Sakura since Part 2 began. Kakashi needs this fight so that he can move on and stop going to that stupid shrine every morning. And if peeople think that Obito's 'retconned" hair causes the war to fail, they need to focus on more meaningful examples.
    Why wouldn't people care about Izuna? He was second to Madara, the loving brother who gave his eyes for his older brother and clan only for his clan to later betray his brother. Now he sought to punish the entire world and revive his dear brother. It would have made prefect sense for Tobi to have been Izuna, thus explaining why he knew so much and he connected with Sasuke. And the whole previous point of Tobi's character was that he was injured and thus had to achieve his goal in a roundabout way. Being a "withered corpse" would have fit just fine with his previous showing, instead of just having Obito holding back the entire time for no reason at all. And why exactly is a previous "relationship" required? What's wrong with simply having the relationships developed as Tobi?

    No, peoples problem was that Tobi being Obito made absolutely no sense and called for a massive retcon of everything that came before. And the entire point is that Tobi was being developed as the main antagonist. Neither Obito nor Kakashi were in need of any more character development. They had both been developed quite well and this current situation hasn't done anything for them except screw Obito's character over and hurt Kakashi, who is was nothing like Sakura as he was already a fine character. And why exactly does Kakashi need to stop visiting a grave? It's a reasonable habit and doesn't impact anything. Obito's "hair" is the least of the problems.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Wars are more then that. By that logic, a reenactment can be called an actual war. Not to mention that only one side is doing any of that stuff, and no war only involves a single side.
    Except reenactments don't have body counts over 100.000. It's precisely because it follows those procedures which separates it from other mob actions.

    Quote Quote:
    No, there is no logical reason for this war. Naruto doesn't need to "shine" in the presences of every single ninja. He didn't need to shine in the presences of every single Konoha ninja to become acknowledged by them, nor for the Suna ninjas to be acknowledged by them. They simply needed to later hear of his amazing feats and that was enough. Heck, we were clearly shown that Naruto didn't have to be on hand for his words to have an affect, as proven by Gaara changing the entire Alliance's attitude through his words. So Naruto could have received the same results by simply impressing the Kages and having his feats passed on to everyone else through them. Heck, Naruto defeating the "legendary Madara" and saving the entire world clearly would have made a real impact regardless of who saw it.
    Not really. Was Sarutobi able to quell the cycle of hate in his own village by just talking to them? No, he was not. Even though he strove for peace he couldn't break the cycle of hate. He couldn't control the rebellious actions of the Uchiha by talking to them. He couldn't quell the resentment the village had for Naruto due to the rampage of the Kyuubi. When did the village turn around for Naruto, when they saw what he did against Pain. But in order for the village to change they had to be involved. The same goes for the ninja system. If the system wants to change it has to be involved, the cycle of hate has permeated its core, just saying "Let go of your hate!" isn't going to cut it.

    Quote Quote:
    No, most wars are purposeful fights. They are ever rarely random, except perhaps the triggering conflict. Some "actions" occurring does not make it a war. And seeing as I specifically mentioned "other shounen wars", you writing off my expectations as wanting a "seinen style" conflict is just silly. And even if i was expecting such, it wouldn't be attempting to elevate this series to a level that hasn't already been hinted at. We're talking about a series about assassins, a series that involved children murdering each other and several cases of genocide. Heck, Part One was quite mature in that regard. It would be nothing more then wanting a return to the basics.
    The objectives are purposeful, the battles themselves are not. You can position forces, but you can't control the outcome with any sort of certainty. Not trying to single anyone out but many readers posted that increasing the intensity in terms of violence would somehow increase the maturity level of the series because it's now a "war" instead of 3-man cell action. Other shounen wars have fodder die but they haven't gotten the knee-jerk reaction this one has gotten even though they are very similar in scope.

    Quote Quote:
    Not really. "Fleeting" tensions isn't tension at all. And the "formula" is enough to keep things interesting. Introducing possible consequences and then ignoring them is the very opposite of that.
    Tension is tension. It doesn't have to last 60 seconds to count.

    Quote Quote:
    Nameless fodder dying means nothing. That's about as important as the Zetsus dying. And what? Where was it even implied that the people disappointed in this war desired mutilation and rape? Wanting them to fight like they're in actual danger is hardly calling for gang-rapes. And "paralyzed the Alliance in compete dysfunction"? When did that happen. Not only was the consequences of the clones barely gotten into, but Naruto arrived right after to solve everything. Heck, even before Naruto had arrived, they had already come up with some solutions as shown by Shikamaru's squad.
    So by that logic WWII never happened. My great-uncle landed on Normandy in 1944, made it to VE Day without getting shot. Even though millions of "fodder" died, there was no war because nothing happened to my great uncle, Mac Arthur, Eisenhower, Roosevelt, or Churchill. There is NO distinction, you use the same measuring stick in war whether it's fictional or real life. Over 60,000 shinobi are dead. It's a war, there are no addendums or benchmarks that need to be achieved a priori.


    Quote Quote:
    First off, as mentioned, it could have easily been Konoha/Suna against Kumo/Iwa/Kiri, with them being manipulated into fighting each other to weaken themselves and at as a distraction while the Juubi was revived. That would have created the same dilemma with Naruto, who would have had to choose whether to go help his friends or trust in them to handle things while he dealt with Madara. And heck, even if all the ninjas seeing Naruto save the day was a must, you still would have been able to have them eventually come together to witness the final fight. If anything, Naruto appealing to both sides to set aside their differences and band together would have been a killer heroic moment showing how he surpass his predecessors. Secondly, there already exist a force of thousands of secret ninjas that Obito could have called upon: the barely seen lesser villages. It was a whole key point with Nagato how the lesser villages suffered due to the major villages, and it would have made prefect sense that they would want revenge. Throw in an offer of the Bijuus d they wouldn't have no reason not to side with Obito. It's not as if Kishi had other plans for them. They aren't even apart of the current situation. You could even add in all those prisoners of Orochimaru that got set free and the Bijuus themselves. Third, Lame? The Espada and Homunculus weren't lame. They and how they were handled were some of the most interesting parts of those wars. I can't think of any series that the lieutenants/mid-bosses were lame. Perhaps that's why you don't have an issue with this war, you have lower expectations. And fourth, the whole "can't be killed" thing barely mattered. Between them releasing themselves and the Alliance sealing them, it's not even as if anything came from it. The only Edo summons that made use of that was Itachi and Madara. With the rest of them, it really didn't matter because they got dealt with juts as quickly as if they were mortal. It's pointless to introduce immortal enemies and not make use of that. Throw in the fact that Kishi had the Edo summons holding back, and they could have simply been replaced with a bunch of regular strong and mortal fodders with the same results.
    Except for one major distinction. In your scenario, no one wants to break out of the cycle of hate. They're still trapped like rats in their little cages. In Kishi's scenario they take a stand against Madara, they want to control their own lives and destinies instead of being duped and fighting senselessly for all eternity. Second, yes there are other nations states but they don't add up to the size of the big Five. The Sound Village is the only other village with siginficant numbers to send candidates for the chuunin exam. Like I said, the biggest retcon ever. Thirdly, yeah they were lame. Flashy with weak character flaws, but lame. No more effective than the Edo Tensei were. Certain Edo Tensei did utilize their new invulnerability. Zabuza did on Kakashi. Just because they didn't have the Top 10 Ways to Kill your Opponent using Edo Tensei doesn't mean it wasn't utilized by the enemy. You didn't see people solo-tanking any of them. It required multiple people and the end results was sealing because you couldn't defeat them-just seal them. Certain people might find another 150 chapters of mangs that result in sealing Edo Tensei 15 times in s row meaningful, but I don't.

    Quote Quote:
    Why wouldn't people care about Izuna? He was second to Madara, the loving brother who gave his eyes for his older brother and clan only for his clan to later betray his brother. Now he sought to punish the entire world and revive his dear brother. It would have made prefect sense for Tobi to have been Izuna, thus explaining why he knew so much and he connected with Sasuke. And the whole previous point of Tobi's character was that he was injured and thus had to achieve his goal in a roundabout way. Being a "withered corpse" would have fit just fine with his previous showing, instead of just having Obito holding back the entire time for no reason at all. And why exactly is a previous "relationship" required? What's wrong with simply having the relationships developed as Tobi?
    Except that Izuna was only a footnote, a method to how Madara got the MS. If Izuna was weaved more into the story like Madara was, then it would have a chance. However, the final nail in the coffin is time. He was too old. Not even Madara could beat the passage of time so why would Izuna? Villians need some connection with the present to explain their desire to destroy it, especially masked ones. Obito had Kakashi, Izuna had no one, not even Sasuke. Might as well make the main villian John Smith at that point.

    Quote Quote:
    No, peoples problem was that Tobi being Obito made absolutely no sense and called for a massive retcon of everything that came before. And the entire point is that Tobi was being developed as the main antagonist. Neither Obito nor Kakashi were in need of any more character development. They had both been developed quite well and this current situation hasn't done anything for them except screw Obito's character over and hurt Kakashi, who is was nothing like Sakura as he was already a fine character. And why exactly does Kakashi need to stop visiting a grave? It's a reasonable habit and doesn't impact anything. Obito's "hair" is the least of the problems.
    Obito's reason makes perfect sense. Nagato wanted to change the system because the system killed Yahiko, why can't Obito do it to reunite with Rin who was also killed by the system. Hell, it's the main theme in Full Metal Alchemist. Our mom died, hit the reset button. My baby died, hit the reset button. So why can't Obito hit the reset button for Rin? Yeah, Tobi was being portrayed as the main villian, but so was Pain for a good part of Part II. Yet all the while Madara was slipped in here and there throughout the story. Two plot twists as to who the real enemy is isn't that big a deal in a manga. Happens all the time. Kakashi definitely needs Obito to move on. If Tobi wasn't Obito Kakashi'd be stuck on his treadmill going to the memorial stone and blowing off Team 7's morning missions. He needs this to move on, settling the score with Obito will allow him to do that. Having Tobi be John Smith won't.
    Last edited by Brill; June 28, 2013 at 04:33 PM.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member flow like's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    people forget one things. this war need for united and change ninja system

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Except reenactments don't have body counts over 100.000. It's precisely because it follows those procedures which separates it from other mob actions.
    By that logic, an act of genocide could be called a war... And actually, mob action is the prefect description to describe this arc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Not really. Was Sarutobi able to quell the cycle of hate in his own village by just talking to them? No, he was not. Even though he strove for peace he couldn't break the cycle of hate. He couldn't control the rebellious actions of the Uchiha by talking to them. He couldn't quell the resentment the village had for Naruto due to the rampage of the Kyuubi. When did the village turn around for Naruto, when they saw what he did against Pain. But in order for the village to change they had to be involved. The same goes for the ninja system. If the system wants to change it has to be involved, the cycle of hate has permeated its core, just saying "Let go of your hate!" isn't going to cut it.
    Except as I mentioned, Gaara changed the entire Alliance by using Naruto's words. It can be done because it has been done. So your argument is moot. And the situation with the Uchiha's happen because Danzo specifically set up the situation so that the only option would be their elimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    The objectives are purposeful, the battles themselves are not. You can position forces, but you can't control the outcome with any sort of certainty. Not trying to single anyone out but many readers posted that increasing the intensity in terms of violence would somehow increase the maturity level of the series because it's now a "war" instead of 3-man cell action. Other shounen wars have fodder die but they haven't gotten the knee-jerk reaction this one has gotten even though they are very similar in scope.
    The outcome being unknown doesn't change that in the majority of wars, when and where battles happen is normally done on purpose. The intensity should have been increased. This is suppose to be the final battle, a war or wars. Naruto is suppose to be experiencing how terrible war is, just as he was told it was, not sailing through it without a problem. Other shounens have an excuse of not becoming more childish has things went on or hyping things up and not delivering. The battles of Bleach, One Piece, and FMA were all constant with what had come before and fit the hype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Tension is tension. It doesn't have to last 60 seconds to count.
    If it doesn't create suspense or anxiety, it's not tension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    So by that logic WWII never happened. My great-uncle landed on Normandy in 1944, made it to VE Day without getting shot. Even though millions of "fodder" died, there was no war because nothing happened to my great uncle, Mac Arthur, Eisenhower, Roosevelt, or Churchill. There is NO distinction, you use the same measuring stick in war whether it's fictional or real life. Over 60,000 shinobi are dead. It's a war, there are no addendums or benchmarks that need to be achieved a priori.
    Strawman. Your grand-uncle may not have been hurt, but it's highly doubtful he and a bunch of his buddies sailed through the war without ever being in danger or facing a challenge. I'm sure he fought the hardest he could and was deeply impacted by what he faced. 60,000 people randomly being killed without any issue or anyone else even blinking is not a war. At best, it's a genocide. The very fact that you can ignore how easy the Alliance has had it without being impacted at all by what as happen says quite a bit. Heck, it's not even like it was made a secret that they would have the edge since the first fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Except for one major distinction. In your scenario, no one wants to break out of the cycle of hate. They're still trapped like rats in their little cages. In Kishi's scenario they take a stand against Madara, they want to control their own lives and destinies instead of being duped and fighting senselessly for all eternity. Second, yes there are other nations states but they don't add up to the size of the big Five. The Sound Village is the only other village with siginficant numbers to send candidates for the chuunin exam. Like I said, the biggest retcon ever. Thirdly, yeah they were lame. Flashy with weak character flaws, but lame. No more effective than the Edo Tensei were. Certain Edo Tensei did utilize their new invulnerability. Zabuza did on Kakashi. Just because they didn't have the Top 10 Ways to Kill your Opponent using Edo Tensei doesn't mean it wasn't utilized by the enemy. You didn't see people solo-tanking any of them. It required multiple people and the end results was sealing because you couldn't defeat them-just seal them. Certain people might find another 150 chapters of mangs that result in sealing Edo Tensei 15 times in s row meaningful, but I don't.
    You're completely wrong. The cycle of hatred isn't even a factor in this war. It's not the reason for the war itself, and it was already solved before the war even began by a single conversation. In my scenarios, the cycle of hatred would be the center of the war and solving it would be an important part of ending the fighting, with Naruto playing a major role in bring everyone together.

    And exactly how can you say the other nations don't measure up to the size of the major villages when we know both Kusa and Ame were capable of fighting against them? It's not even as if we've been given the size of their forces. If Kishi can suddenly bump up the number of ninjas in Konoha from a couple of hundred to a couple of thousands, he can easily have done the same with the lesser villages. The Chuunin Exam? You mean the one that didn't have any ninjas from Kumo, Iwa, or Kiri? By your logic, their forces must not have had any significant forces. And Oto sent the least number of ninjas. Kusa and Taki sent twice as many as Oto, and Ame only sent nine less then Suna.

    How can you call them lame? They had actual history and a purpose beyond a single arc of showing off. Not only that, but they were actually built up as a threat, with the seeds planted long before the war arcs. And they were worlds more effective then the Edo summons. Aside from Madara and Itachi, the Edo summons haven't done a thing plotwise. And when did Zabuza make actual use of his invulnerability? His regeneration didn't come into play at all against Kakashi. And you're missing the point. The very fact that the Alliance were able to seal them to stop them completely makes them pointless. They could have easily been replaced by living targets with the same results. The whole regenerating warrior thing is moot if it isn't used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Except that Izuna was only a footnote, a method to how Madara got the MS. If Izuna was weaved more into the story like Madara was, then it would have a chance. However, the final nail in the coffin is time. He was too old. Not even Madara could beat the passage of time so why would Izuna? Villians need some connection with the present to explain their desire to destroy it, especially masked ones. Obito had Kakashi, Izuna had no one, not even Sasuke. Might as well make the main villian John Smith at that point.
    Weaved through the story? Before this arc, Madara was only mentioned once more then Izuna, by the Kyuubi comparing Sasuke to him. Both Itachi and Obito's stories played on his connection to Madara. And too old? Sarutobi, Chiyo, Danzo, and Onoki were all old and still pretty badass, and they weren't more then a decade or so younger then Izuna would have been. It's not even as if he would have had to be made into a powerhouse, since as mentioned, the whole point with Tobi was that he was just a "shadow". It was expected that he would be lacking in strength and power. Not to mention that there could have been made reasons for him surviving so long, like what has been done with Orochimaru.

    Except one, Kakashi isn't the reason Obito is doing anything. It's Rin, who's been dead quite a while. Two, Izuna had a reason, the Uchiha clan and Konoha, who betrayed his brother. And three, nothing is being destroyed. The villain's goal is an infinite illusion. If the reason for Obito's actions can be wanting to live in an illusion with the dead Rin, then Izuna's actions can just as easily be wanting to live in a illusion with his brother.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Obito's reason makes perfect sense. Nagato wanted to change the system because the system killed Yahiko, why can't Obito do it to reunite with Rin who was also killed by the system. Hell, it's the main theme in Full Metal Alchemist. Our mom died, hit the reset button. My baby died, hit the reset button. So why can't Obito hit the reset button for Rin? Yeah, Tobi was being portrayed as the main villian, but so was Pain for a good part of Part II. Yet all the while Madara was slipped in here and there throughout the story. Two plot twists as to who the real enemy is isn't that big a deal in a manga. Happens all the time. Kakashi definitely needs Obito to move on. If Tobi wasn't Obito Kakashi'd be stuck on his treadmill going to the memorial stone and blowing off Team 7's morning missions. He needs this to move on, settling the score with Obito will allow him to do that. Having Tobi be John Smith won't.
    No he doesn't. Obito's not trying to change the actual system like Nagato was and Rin wasn't killed by the cycle of hatred. Rin's death had nothing to do with the cycle. Not to mention Obito's declarations about not caring about anything. It can't even be called hitting the reset button, since he's not resetting anything.

    Pain was only portrayed as such for a hundred some chapters. Tobi had twice that going for him. And it wasn't simply Madara being slipped in. Not only was it heavily implied, it was outright stated multiple times. It is quite a big deal when it causes massive retcons and makes no sense. And no, Kakashi didn't need to move on. As mentioned, it doesn't affect anything. It hasn't even been shown against since Part One or impacted any of the missions he has been sent on with Naruto and co. It's not even as if he's in a position to train or go on a mission with them anymore. Team Seven is grown and independent. There wasn't even a score to settle before this stupid revelation turn Obito from the one good Uchiha to a crazy crackpot.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shafagh's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Quote:
    Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread
    pardon me , but there was any war arc !?
    خداحافظ

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