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Thread: Official dissapointment in Madara, Obito & the entire war arc thread <3

  1. #46
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member IChallengeYou!'s Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Yes, there has been and still is a verbal war in progress.

    this war in a nutshell

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  3. #47
    Reviewer 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member otomo20's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    Yes, there has been and still is a verbal war in progress.

    this war in a nutshell
    thank you, that was awesome and made me lol

  4. #48
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    By that logic, an act of genocide could be called a war... And actually, mob action is the prefect description to describe this arc.
    Except the aggressors don't lose over 1/2 of their forces in a genocide. They do lose them in a civil war.

    Quote Quote:
    Except as I mentioned, Gaara changed the entire Alliance by using Naruto's words. It can be done because it has been done. So your argument is moot. And the situation with the Uchiha's happen because Danzo specifically set up the situation so that the only option would be their elimination.
    Gaara didn't break the cycle of hate. He dissolved the distrust of having former enemies side by side, but he didn't break the cycle of hate. The cycle of hate is more than having advesaries play nice with each other. That task is going to be accomplished by someone else. Danzo didn't setup the Uchiha to revolt. they did that themselves. Danzou just struck first.

    Quote Quote:
    The outcome being unknown doesn't change that in the majority of wars, when and where battles happen is normally done on purpose. The intensity should have been increased. This is suppose to be the final battle, a war or wars. Naruto is suppose to be experiencing how terrible war is, just as he was told it was, not sailing through it without a problem. Other shounens have an excuse of not becoming more childish has things went on or hyping things up and not delivering. The battles of Bleach, One Piece, and FMA were all constant with what had come before and fit the hype.
    And you don't think a creature that destroyed a nearby town and Alliance HQ with two blasts is intense? Once again it's entirely subjective. Every person has their own version of intensity. Was the Bleach war intense because no one died? Was the One Piece War-or rather battle royale- even a war because two unimportant secondary characters died-one of which was only introduced mere chapters before he kicked the bucket? Yeah the FMA war was an insurrection but when the only victims are a Northern lieutenant and a bodyguard who have no real ties to Ed and Al is it really intense? You could easily argue none of them were wars based on terms of "intensity".

    Quote Quote:
    If it doesn't create suspense or anxiety, it's not tension.
    It's still tension even if you're not moved by it. If it talks, walks, and quacks like duck, it's a duck.

    Quote Quote:
    Strawman. Your grand-uncle may not have been hurt, but it's highly doubtful he and a bunch of his buddies sailed through the war without ever being in danger or facing a challenge. I'm sure he fought the hardest he could and was deeply impacted by what he faced. 60,000 people randomly being killed without any issue or anyone else even blinking is not a war. At best, it's a genocide. The very fact that you can ignore how easy the Alliance has had it without being impacted at all by what as happen says quite a bit. Heck, it's not even like it was made a secret that they would have the edge since the first fight.
    Correction. This is the core issue which demonstrates why people are claiming this arc isn't a war are wrong. The war arc is proceeding as a war. It may be a great war, a mediocre war, or a lousy war, but it's still a war. However, people are putting preconditions that must be achieved before they acknowledge that it's a war. That's not how it works. Otherwise I can make the same preconditions for wars in real life. Since Eisenhower, Roosevelt, and my great-uncle weren't killed, WWII was not a real war because no one I cared about was impacted even though hundreds of millions of people died. That's the flaw with "only fodder have died" argument. It's a misguided reader's self-imposed precondition, not a requirement for war. We had Gai bolstering the troops after their comrades died around them, Hinata doing the same for Naruto surrounded in dead bodies he vowed to protect. You had Neji die right in front of Naruto yet you brush that off as" fodder" and "safe" conditions when the exact opposite is being portrayed? Kishi gives us the token one or two moments, but how many are really needed it to be a "war". Ten, twenty, one hundred? It's manga, not War and Peace.

    Quote Quote:
    You're completely wrong. The cycle of hatred isn't even a factor in this war. It's not the reason for the war itself, and it was already solved before the war even began by a single conversation. In my scenarios, the cycle of hatred would be the center of the war and solving it would be an important part of ending the fighting, with Naruto playing a major role in bring everyone together.
    That was your incorrect assesment of Gaara's talk. Gaara got them to not fight each other, which is an important first step. However, he didn't break the cycle of hatred. That task was left to Naruto. With all the talk about Naruto trying to reach Sasuke and all the horrors of war that Nagato related to Naruto it was Naruto's task to solve the problem. And at a basic level he did. Kishi had Naruto able to relate to everyone with their chakra. When Naruto bestowed the chakra cloak to all members of the Allliance he succeeded whene everyone has failed. He doesn't know everyone to the core of their beings but he is able to relate to everyone at the most primitive level. Hopefully going forward he will do more than that.

    Quote Quote:
    And exactly how can you say the other nations don't measure up to the size of the major villages when we know both Kusa and Ame were capable of fighting against them? It's not even as if we've been given the size of their forces. If Kishi can suddenly bump up the number of ninjas in Konoha from a couple of hundred to a couple of thousands, he can easily have done the same with the lesser villages. The Chuunin Exam? You mean the one that didn't have any ninjas from Kumo, Iwa, or Kiri? By your logic, their forces must not have had any significant forces. And Oto sent the least number of ninjas. Kusa and Taki sent twice as many as Oto, and Ame only sent nine less then Suna.
    Although they have forces, they were the playgrounds of the other bigger nations. Sure Europe has armies of their own but could they defeat the combined might of the Soviet Union, China and the USA? Not bloody likely. If they were sufficient, countries like the Nation of Waves woud never need to hire Naruto to do work for them, they could get one of the smaller places...unless they weren't up for the task. Coincidence? They were a force but not a sufficient force to rival the Big 5. Still the biggest retcon ever.

    Quote Quote:
    How can you call them lame? They had actual history and a purpose beyond a single arc of showing off. Not only that, but they were actually built up as a threat, with the seeds planted long before the war arcs. And they were worlds more effective then the Edo summons. Aside from Madara and Itachi, the Edo summons haven't done a thing plotwise. And when did Zabuza make actual use of his invulnerability? His regeneration didn't come into play at all against Kakashi. And you're missing the point. The very fact that the Alliance were able to seal them to stop them completely makes them pointless. They could have easily been replaced by living targets with the same results. The whole regenerating warrior thing is moot if it isn't used.
    Ah yes, the Espada being stronger than captains yet getting taken down by lieutenants and foot soldiers. Talk about overhyped. But they fulfilled their roles giiving airtime to secondary characters who normally wouldn't get it. Killing them didn't advance the plot at all. The same is true for the Edo Tensei. Secondary characters (over 30 of them) were given a shot and they didi what they could with the Edo Tensei, yet couldn't defeat them. So yeah, sealings had to take place since Kishi put that constraint on the scenario. Zabuza made use of the invulnerability to slce through Haku to get at Kakashi, a limitation that most living wouldn't make.

    Quote Quote:
    Weaved through the story? Before this arc, Madara was only mentioned once more then Izuna, by the Kyuubi comparing Sasuke to him. Both Itachi and Obito's stories played on his connection to Madara. And too old? Sarutobi, Chiyo, Danzo, and Onoki were all old and still pretty badass, and they weren't more then a decade or so younger then Izuna would have been. It's not even as if he would have had to be made into a powerhouse, since as mentioned, the whole point with Tobi was that he was just a "shadow". It was expected that he would be lacking in strength and power. Not to mention that there could have been made reasons for him surviving so long, like what has been done with Orochimaru.
    Was there a statue of Izuna at the waterfall which was the backdrop of the Naruto/Sasuke fight? No, it was Madara. Who has Itachi's alleged assistant in the slaughter of the Uchiha, it was Madara, Whose chakra does the Kyuubi recognize as another sign of foreshadowing, Madara. If Izuna was placed there. then the argument might have some weight, But Izuna's only reference to the enitre storyline is as a victim to Madara getting the MS. That's it. He's not explained in any other capacity except for that. Yeah, Danzou, Sarutobi, and Chiyo were good, now add another 10-20 years on top of that to get to Izuna's generation and they aren't so hot anymore.

    Quote Quote:
    Except one, Kakashi isn't the reason Obito is doing anything. It's Rin, who's been dead quite a while. Two, Izuna had a reason, the Uchiha clan and Konoha, who betrayed his brother. And three, nothing is being destroyed. The villain's goal is an infinite illusion. If the reason for Obito's actions can be wanting to live in an illusion with the dead Rin, then Izuna's actions can just as easily be wanting to live in a illusion with his brother.
    Kakashi is Obito's link to the present. Who is Izuna's link to the present, no one., You could make Tobi Joe Uchiha for that matter and it'd have the same effect. The Uchiha were defeated by Hashitama 50-60 years ago and I'm going for revenge on a bunch of people who don't know who I am, Ho hum.

    Quote Quote:
    No he doesn't. Obito's not trying to change the actual system like Nagato was and Rin wasn't killed by the cycle of hatred. Rin's death had nothing to do with the cycle. Not to mention Obito's declarations about not caring about anything. It can't even be called hitting the reset button, since he's not resetting anything.
    Rin was killed by the system in the never ending cycle of revenge. She was kidnapped, infused with a bijuu primed to detonate, killing herself in the process, to unleash the 3 tails on Konoha. Just like Gaara was roughly 20 years later. She was a victim of the system, Kakashi made her suffering less. Obito's goals arean't as magnanimous as Nagato's. In fact they are very focused and selflish but the scope of the techniques impacts everyone. Obito's approach impacts everyone, but he doesn't care because he believes that no one else will care since their desires will be fulfilled like his will be. He's hitting the reset button just like in FMA. I lost something, I can't deal with the loss so I'm going to employ some forbidden tecfhnique so I can reset things to the way they were. Just like in FMA except ithe technique's range is regional and not just local.

    Quote Quote:
    Pain was only portrayed as such for a hundred some chapters. Tobi had twice that going for him. And it wasn't simply Madara being slipped in. Not only was it heavily implied, it was outright stated multiple times. It is quite a big deal when it causes massive retcons and makes no sense. And no, Kakashi didn't need to move on. As mentioned, it doesn't affect anything. It hasn't even been shown against since Part One or impacted any of the missions he has been sent on with Naruto and co. It's not even as if he's in a position to train or go on a mission with them anymore. Team Seven is grown and independent. There wasn't even a score to settle before this stupid revelation turn Obito from the one good Uchiha to a crazy crackpot.
    Pain was calling the shots for 200 chapters and Tobi for a similar amount. Sure it was implied Tobi was Madara, but how many mystery people turn out to be someone else? Once again the nebulous clain of broken retcons when Kishi explains it all., especially when there is so much of the backhistory that remains untold can it really be a retcon? Yes, Kakashi does need this battle for his much needed character development otherwise he'd still be at the memorial every morning bemoaning his powerlessness about what happened over 16 years ago. It's time he moved on and this opportunity with Obito gives him that chance.

  5. #49
    MH's Best Reviewer MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    I've said my piece more than once on why I think this "war arc" has fallen flat on it's face. So I'm not really going to go into that. I basically just agree with what Rikudou King said on a lot of "why" of it. So I'm going to focus instead on how I think it could have been "improved".

    Here's are 10 things I would have tried to convince Kishimoto to do differently had I been his editor.

    Spoiler: My top 10 show
    Last edited by Jammin; July 06, 2013 at 02:33 PM.
    Jammin's Recommended Reading
    The Gamer [Esp. for Everybody]
    I Don't Want This Kind of Hero [Esp. for Superhero/Comedy fans]
    Girls of the Wild's [Esp. for Romance/Martial Arts fans.]
    Ultimate Legend: Kang Hae Hyo [Esp. for Delinquent/Comedy fans]
    Otogi Taisen Fantasma [Esp. for Harem Fans]

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  7. #50
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Except the aggressors don't lose over 1/2 of their forces in a genocide. They do lose them in a civil war.
    French revolution would disagree with you. And while it has nothing to do with the discussion, there have been several bloodless civil wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Gaara didn't break the cycle of hate. He dissolved the distrust of having former enemies side by side, but he didn't break the cycle of hate. The cycle of hate is more than having advesaries play nice with each other. That task is going to be accomplished by someone else. Danzo didn't setup the Uchiha to revolt. they did that themselves. Danzou just struck first.
    Gaara did just like Naruto always does and used talk-no-jutus to change people. And according to the series, that's breaking the cycle of hatred. It's all about removing people's reason for hating one another. And Danzo did set them up. He helped in pushing them to the limit, purposely prevented Shisui and Sarutobi from ending the threat in a peaceful way, threatened Sasuke to force Itachi to kill them, all so he could grab their power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And you don't think a creature that destroyed a nearby town and Alliance HQ with two blasts is intense? Once again it's entirely subjective. Every person has their own version of intensity. Was the Bleach war intense because no one died? Was the One Piece War-or rather battle royale- even a war because two unimportant secondary characters died-one of which was only introduced mere chapters before he kicked the bucket? Yeah the FMA war was an insurrection but when the only victims are a Northern lieutenant and a bodyguard who have no real ties to Ed and Al is it really intense? You could easily argue none of them were wars based on terms of "intensity".
    You consider a giant blast of destruction intense? Part Two has been filled with them, from the Bijuus, to Deidara and Nagato. The wars in Bleach, One Piece, and FMA were all intense because they were on a level not seen before in their series. You keep trying to equate interest to deaths and that's simply not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    It's still tension even if you're not moved by it. If it talks, walks, and quacks like duck, it's a duck.
    Problem here is that it's not walking or quacking like a duck, so why not call it a goose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Correction. This is the core issue which demonstrates why people are claiming this arc isn't a war are wrong. The war arc is proceeding as a war. It may be a great war, a mediocre war, or a lousy war, but it's still a war. However, people are putting preconditions that must be achieved before they acknowledge that it's a war. That's not how it works. Otherwise I can make the same preconditions for wars in real life. Since Eisenhower, Roosevelt, and my great-uncle weren't killed, WWII was not a real war because no one I cared about was impacted even though hundreds of millions of people died. That's the flaw with "only fodder have died" argument. It's a misguided reader's self-imposed precondition, not a requirement for war. We had Gai bolstering the troops after their comrades died around them, Hinata doing the same for Naruto surrounded in dead bodies he vowed to protect. You had Neji die right in front of Naruto yet you brush that off as" fodder" and "safe" conditions when the exact opposite is being portrayed? Kishi gives us the token one or two moments, but how many are really needed it to be a "war". Ten, twenty, one hundred? It's manga, not War and Peace.
    There's nothing to correct. People have preconditions because the series had gone out of it's way to previous tell us of wars, wars have been a major factor throughout the series. So claiming that we shouldn't use those previous standards of war to judge this war makes no sense. And honestly, this arc isn't proceeding like a war at all. And the issue you seem to be missing is that this war hasn't had an impact at all with those involved. There's no way you could use that same precondition with WWII, because it's undeniable that it had a huge impact on those involved regardless of your own personal experience. A momentary reflection before returning right back to being normal is ridiculous. There's a big difference between pushing on after a harrowing experience and simply ignoring that it happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    That was your incorrect assesment of Gaara's talk. Gaara got them to not fight each other, which is an important first step. However, he didn't break the cycle of hatred. That task was left to Naruto. With all the talk about Naruto trying to reach Sasuke and all the horrors of war that Nagato related to Naruto it was Naruto's task to solve the problem. And at a basic level he did. Kishi had Naruto able to relate to everyone with their chakra. When Naruto bestowed the chakra cloak to all members of the Allliance he succeeded whene everyone has failed. He doesn't know everyone to the core of their beings but he is able to relate to everyone at the most primitive level. Hopefully going forward he will do more than that.
    No, he did break the cycle. That's all the cycle is about, as shown by Gaara's own experience. Out of all the times we've seen said cycle broken, like with Nagato, that's all that's been done. Exactly what more are you expecting to be done when everyone is already together in faith and all? And seeing as Naruto had nothing to do with Sasuke's change of heart, he clearly isn't required to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Although they have forces, they were the playgrounds of the other bigger nations. Sure Europe has armies of their own but could they defeat the combined might of the Soviet Union, China and the USA? Not bloody likely. If they were sufficient, countries like the Nation of Waves woud never need to hire Naruto to do work for them, they could get one of the smaller places...unless they weren't up for the task. Coincidence? They were a force but not a sufficient force to rival the Big 5. Still the biggest retcon ever.
    Playgrounds? Again, both Kusa and Ame were shown equal participants in their respected wars, so they clearly weren't weak. And the Wave hiring from Konoha means nothing. The Daimyo of the Wind Country was hiring from Konoha instead of from his own village of Suna, yet apparently they're still a " sufficient" force. The fact remains that there was simply nothing to suggest that the minor villages couldn't measure up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Ah yes, the Espada being stronger than captains yet getting taken down by lieutenants and foot soldiers. Talk about overhyped. But they fulfilled their roles giiving airtime to secondary characters who normally wouldn't get it. Killing them didn't advance the plot at all. The same is true for the Edo Tensei. Secondary characters (over 30 of them) were given a shot and they didi what they could with the Edo Tensei, yet couldn't defeat them. So yeah, sealings had to take place since Kishi put that constraint on the scenario. Zabuza made use of the invulnerability to slce through Haku to get at Kakashi, a limitation that most living wouldn't make.
    The Espada in themselves were never remarked as stronger then the captains. That was the Vasto Lords, and that was basically shown to be roughly true, though I'm not sure what "footsoldiers" you speak of. And the only lieutenants to take down an Espada were those already acknowledged as near captain-level.

    Anyway, as I said, they had actual history and a purpose beyond a single arc of showing off. Not only that, but they were actually built up as a threat, with the seeds planted long before the war arcs. Also, most of their deaths did advance the plot. That's nothing as with the majority of Edo summons. And the majority of Edo summons were defeated without trouble. Madara is the only one who couldn't be defeated as such. The entire point is that if Kishi was gonna allow them to be defeated so easily, there was no point in any making such a limitation or bring them into play. It would be like introducing an army of invulnerable robots and then giving everyone the means to short circuit them. And the situation with Haku wasn't a play on Zabuza's invulnerability. It wasn't even a play on Haku's invulnerability, given that Haku was basically "dead" after Kakashi's hit. And slicing through a person isn't a limitation most living ninjas would have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Was there a statue of Izuna at the waterfall which was the backdrop of the Naruto/Sasuke fight? No, it was Madara. Who has Itachi's alleged assistant in the slaughter of the Uchiha, it was Madara, Whose chakra does the Kyuubi recognize as another sign of foreshadowing, Madara. If Izuna was placed there. then the argument might have some weight, But Izuna's only reference to the enitre storyline is as a victim to Madara getting the MS. That's it. He's not explained in any other capacity except for that. Yeah, Danzou, Sarutobi, and Chiyo were good, now add another 10-20 years on top of that to get to Izuna's generation and they aren't so hot anymore.
    We didn't even know who that was or why it mattered until Itachi told us. And again, both Itachi and Obito play up on the close bond between Madara and Izuna, having them play similar to the brotherly bond between Sasuke and Itachi. And please explain how exactly an argument about a character devoted to Madara enough to use his name and plot to revive him has Izuna not holding any weight? It's ridiculous to claim that Tobi being Izuna, a person with an actual connection to Madara and major reason to do what he did, doesn't work much better then Obito, a person who had no connection to Madara and had to be retcon into having a reason to do anything.

    Aside from you clearly skipping Onoki, 10 to 20? Izuna was from Tobirama's generation, who wasn't greatly older then either Sarutobi or Danzo. If Onoki can fight amzing at his age, izuna could have too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Kakashi is Obito's link to the present. Who is Izuna's link to the present, no one., You could make Tobi Joe Uchiha for that matter and it'd have the same effect. The Uchiha were defeated by Hashitama 50-60 years ago and I'm going for revenge on a bunch of people who don't know who I am, Ho hum.
    This is ridiculous. Izuna doesn't need a "link to the present" because this isn't about the present. And you couldn't use just any Uchiha. Izuna is the only Uchiha who loved Madara, and the only one who didn't betray him. He would be the only one to have reason to hate the other Uchiha's and the only one to have a reason to revive Madara. He would also be the only one who would know so much about Madara, other then Madara.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Rin was killed by the system in the never ending cycle of revenge. She was kidnapped, infused with a bijuu primed to detonate, killing herself in the process, to unleash the 3 tails on Konoha. Just like Gaara was roughly 20 years later. She was a victim of the system, Kakashi made her suffering less. Obito's goals arean't as magnanimous as Nagato's. In fact they are very focused and selflish but the scope of the techniques impacts everyone. Obito's approach impacts everyone, but he doesn't care because he believes that no one else will care since their desires will be fulfilled like his will be. He's hitting the reset button just like in FMA. I lost something, I can't deal with the loss so I'm going to employ some forbidden tecfhnique so I can reset things to the way they were. Just like in FMA except ithe technique's range is regional and not just local.
    That's not how it works. Rin was killed by Kakashi. He's the one who gets blamed, just like Neji blamed Hinata for his father's death and Nagato blamed Konoha for the deaths of his family and Yahiko. And again, he's not resetting anything. He's basically ignoring what happen in favor of an illusion. His actions aren't gonna bring the real Rin back, but merely a fake fantasy Rin for himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Pain was calling the shots for 200 chapters and Tobi for a similar amount. Sure it was implied Tobi was Madara, but how many mystery people turn out to be someone else? Once again the nebulous clain of broken retcons when Kishi explains it all., especially when there is so much of the backhistory that remains untold can it really be a retcon? Yes, Kakashi does need this battle for his much needed character development otherwise he'd still be at the memorial every morning bemoaning his powerlessness about what happened over 16 years ago. It's time he moved on and this opportunity with Obito gives him that chance.
    It was only 125 chapters between Pain's mysterious appearance and when Obito was shown bossing him around. Meanwhile, Obito had 237 chapters before Madara took over. And what? Not only did it change the timeline by making the Ame orphans younger, which makes the Second and Third war right after each other, screwing up various character's backstory. The only thing that was "untold" was Madara's fate after VotE, which still hasn't been told.

    No, Kakashi didn't need any character development, and any development he did need was given with his meeting with his father. I'm failing to see why something that hasn't even been shown for a long time matters? And honestly, how is this current situation suppose to fix that? He's still failed Obito, but now on an even bigger level.

  8. #51
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    French revolution would disagree with you. And while it has nothing to do with the discussion, there have been several bloodless civil wars.
    Except that's a war not a genocide. Genocides are what happened in Rowanda. But that's not what we have here.

    Quote Quote:
    Gaara did just like Naruto always does and used talk-no-jutus to change people. And according to the series, that's breaking the cycle of hatred. It's all about removing people's reason for hating one another. And Danzo did set them up. He helped in pushing them to the limit, purposely prevented Shisui and Sarutobi from ending the threat in a peaceful way, threatened Sasuke to force Itachi to kill them, all so he could grab their power.
    That's not breaking the cycle of hate, The cycle of hate is eternal fighting due to people getting revenge for fallen comrades. Making an alliance to attack someone is not breaking the cycle, it's promoting it. Additionally, Jiraiya, Nagato, and Minato have all given this charge to Naruto, not Gaara. Where does Danzou promote the Uchiha revolt? He kept an eye on them but he didn't encourage dissent.

    Quote Quote:
    You consider a giant blast of destruction intense? Part Two has been filled with them, from the Bijuus, to Deidara and Nagato. The wars in Bleach, One Piece, and FMA were all intense because they were on a level not seen before in their series. You keep trying to equate interest to deaths and that's simply not the case.
    They were all battle royales. Instead of having 2-3 one-on-one fights you have 5-10. That's not a war. It's bigger, but they still aren't wars. The only one close was FMA. At least Naruto does offer more than a battle royale.

    Quote Quote:
    Problem here is that it's not walking or quacking like a duck, so why not call it a goose.
    It's quacking like a duck. The problem is that you're looking for a goose. The issue isn't the duck.

    Quote Quote:
    There's nothing to correct. People have preconditions because the series had gone out of it's way to previous tell us of wars, wars have been a major factor throughout the series. So claiming that we shouldn't use those previous standards of war to judge this war makes no sense. And honestly, this arc isn't proceeding like a war at all. And the issue you seem to be missing is that this war hasn't had an impact at all with those involved. There's no way you could use that same precondition with WWII, because it's undeniable that it had a huge impact on those involved regardless of your own personal experience. A momentary reflection before returning right back to being normal is ridiculous. There's a big difference between pushing on after a harrowing experience and simply ignoring that it happen.
    There's plenty to correct, For starters you're using the wrong measuring stick. You're applying the rules for a marathon to a 1 km race. You're looking for signs of a drawn-out war, things that occur over a period of years, not 2 days and you're crying fowl? People aren't impacted? Are you serious? Ino and Shikamaru aren't impacted by the deaths of their fathers? Hinata, Lee, Hiashi and Naruto weren't impacted by the death of Neji, not to mention that 60,000 shinobi that have already died. Death is pretty impactful. Maybe not to you but it is to them. Yet you turn a blind eye to this because you don't see fodder suffering from PTSD or wanting to kill themselves uncontrollably from seeing the "horrors" of war. So yeah, you're placing unreasonable preconditions on the war and ignoring what's taking place because it doesn't happen the way you want it to. That's not how it works.

    Quote Quote:
    No, he did break the cycle. That's all the cycle is about, as shown by Gaara's own experience. Out of all the times we've seen said cycle broken, like with Nagato, that's all that's been done. Exactly what more are you expecting to be done when everyone is already together in faith and all? And seeing as Naruto had nothing to do with Sasuke's change of heart, he clearly isn't required to do so.
    Convincing others to put aside their differences to attack a common foe is not breaking the cycle. If that was true then Orochimaru broke the cycle of hate when the Sound and Sand villages attacked the Leaf. They are exactly the same scenario. The cycle may get suspended but it always starts up again, even Nagato said this which is why his approach was temporary. The cycle never breaks they're still looking for someone to break it and that person won't be Gaara.

    Quote Quote:
    Playgrounds? Again, both Kusa and Ame were shown equal participants in their respected wars, so they clearly weren't weak. And the Wave hiring from Konoha means nothing. The Daimyo of the Wind Country was hiring from Konoha instead of from his own village of Suna, yet apparently they're still a " sufficient" force. The fact remains that there was simply nothing to suggest that the minor villages couldn't measure up.
    For their own civil war maybe, but when foreign powers conduct wars in your own territory means your power is insufficient to protect your own borders. You are not a force that can address the full might of the bigger nations.

    Quote Quote:
    The Espada in themselves were never remarked as stronger then the captains. That was the Vasto Lords, and that was basically shown to be roughly true, though I'm not sure what "footsoldiers" you speak of. And the only lieutenants to take down an Espada were those already acknowledged as near captain-level.

    Anyway, as I said, they had actual history and a purpose beyond a single arc of showing off. Not only that, but they were actually built up as a threat, with the seeds planted long before the war arcs. Also, most of their deaths did advance the plot. That's nothing as with the majority of Edo summons. And the majority of Edo summons were defeated without trouble. Madara is the only one who couldn't be defeated as such. The entire point is that if Kishi was gonna allow them to be defeated so easily, there was no point in any making such a limitation or bring them into play. It would be like introducing an army of invulnerable robots and then giving everyone the means to short circuit them. And the situation with Haku wasn't a play on Zabuza's invulnerability. It wasn't even a play on Haku's invulnerability, given that Haku was basically "dead" after Kakashi's hit. And slicing through a person isn't a limitation most living ninjas would have.
    Last time I checked Rukia wasn't a lieutenant or a captain when she took hers down and there were other 3rd and lower seeds who destroyed esapada in Kakakura town.

    A history? They were all created after Aizen went to Hueco Mundo a history of maybe 3 months. They served nothing more than being an obstacle for another 1-on-1 fight. They had nice backstories but you could extract almost all of them from the story and the plot would still go on. They weren't essential to the story. The same is true for the Edo Tensei they were a set of disposable enemy lieutenants that the Alliance are meant to overcome. The constraint that Kishi had that others don't is that many of them couldn't be dispelled or killed, just sealed. While that may not be palatable it's better than just fighting a 100,000 zetsu. No one would buy that scenario so Kishi had 2 choices: Edo Tensei or a the Unknown Village of 100,000 Shinobi. Only one of these actually exists so we got the Edo Tensei.

    Quote Quote:
    We didn't even know who that was or why it mattered until Itachi told us. And again, both Itachi and Obito play up on the close bond between Madara and Izuna, having them play similar to the brotherly bond between Sasuke and Itachi. And please explain how exactly an argument about a character devoted to Madara enough to use his name and plot to revive him has Izuna not holding any weight? It's ridiculous to claim that Tobi being Izuna, a person with an actual connection to Madara and major reason to do what he did, doesn't work much better then Obito, a person who had no connection to Madara and had to be retcon into having a reason to do anything.
    It was foreshadowing it doesn't have to be explained right away, but it points to the real target. That's the purpose of the plot device. That's why you need a statue of Izuna at the waterfall but don't have it. Then there was the plothole that Izuna was dead before Madara. The reason why its Obito and not Izuna is simple. Time. Time is the one element that people in this world can't change. Tsunade could change her looks but she still in her 50's. Why would Izuna wait 60+years until he was in his 80's-90's to attack the world? Why not sooner? Having to connect an old person to someone in the relative present (i.e. Obito meeting Madara) is more practical than having Izuna sit on the sidelines waiting 60 years when he should be pushing a walker to commence an attack on the shinobi world. That's just silly.

    Quote Quote:
    Aside from you clearly skipping Onoki, 10 to 20? Izuna was from Tobirama's generation, who wasn't greatly older then either Sarutobi or Danzo. If Onoki can fight amzing at his age, izuna could have too.
    Tsuande is in her 50's. She's the granddaughter of Hashirama. That puts Hashirama at 90 now. So Izuna is in his late 80's early 90's. Why is someone who should be in a wheelchair now combating the entire world where Sarutobi who is 10-15 years younger is already in decline. That a bigger retcon than making Obito Tobi which is chronologically possible. There is a reason why Onoki flies around, he can't walk and has severe health issues. Even he isn't immune to time while Tobi can run around without impairment, A worse retcon.

    Quote Quote:
    This is ridiculous. Izuna doesn't need a "link to the present" because this isn't about the present. And you couldn't use just any Uchiha. Izuna is the only Uchiha who loved Madara, and the only one who didn't betray him. He would be the only one to have reason to hate the other Uchiha's and the only one to have a reason to revive Madara. He would also be the only one who would know so much about Madara, other then Madara.
    Yes, you do. These are two distant points in time. Over 60+ years has passed. Why didn't these events happen sooner? You have to link them together somehow, Kishi chose to take Madara and link him to present via Obito who is tied to this timeline. Next, you need to have Obito have a link to present so he would take a stand against it. That link is Kakashi, Otherwise why would he accept Madara's charge in wanting to change it unless he was wronged somehow. Using Izuna is a much harder sell because not only do you have to explain why the hell it took 60 years to get things ready you have to demonstrate how he capable of functioning as a 90-year old spiteful ninja. Kishi chose the former.

    Quote Quote:
    That's not how it works. Rin was killed by Kakashi. He's the one who gets blamed, just like Neji blamed Hinata for his father's death and Nagato blamed Konoha for the deaths of his family and Yahiko. And again, he's not resetting anything. He's basically ignoring what happen in favor of an illusion. His actions aren't gonna bring the real Rin back, but merely a fake fantasy Rin for himself.
    And what caused Kakashi to kill her, because she was infused with the Sanbi and they had to stop it. And why was she infused with the Sanbi because the Mist village wanted to destroy the Leaf village. Why? Because of a previous grievance. That grievance whatever it was is part of the cycle of hate. The eternal never ending struggle that the shinobi system can't break out of. Obito's actions while selfish in nature has the effect of altering the entire system, It's not a vehicle of fear like Nagato's was but one of illusion that Madara is promoting...supposedly. If it wasn't all-encompassing it wouldn't be much if a threat.

    Quote Quote:
    It was only 125 chapters between Pain's mysterious appearance and when Obito was shown bossing him around. Meanwhile, Obito had 237 chapters before Madara took over. And what? Not only did it change the timeline by making the Ame orphans younger, which makes the Second and Third war right after each other, screwing up various character's backstory. The only thing that was "untold" was Madara's fate after VotE, which still hasn't been told.
    And in terms of story "time" Pain was calling the shots for a few months then Tobi was for even less. Does it break the space-time continuum, no. The issue is how long did it take Jiraiya to train Minato after he left the Ame orphans, and how much time passed before Obito became a student of Minato. Could all this happen before Yahiko died? There is nothing to really prevent this since graduation dates for various cells were never given.

    Quote Quote:
    No, Kakashi didn't need any character development, and any development he did need was given with his meeting with his father. I'm failing to see why something that hasn't even been shown for a long time matters? And honestly, how is this current situation suppose to fix that? He's still failed Obito, but now on an even bigger level.
    Kishi disagrees with you. Obviously dad's talk wasn't sufficient because Kakashi is still hung up on the past almost as much as Tobi is. Kishi also feels the same because Kakashi is still struggling with his personal image of Obito from his past and the present one he is currently fighting.

  9. #52
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity KiSwordsman's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    You can't have epic fighting with zombies who cannot be hurt or killed. And that is why the war arc was doomed from the start.

    The Hokages and the other Edo tensei characters should have never been brought back. The war should of been village against village. Konona and Suna on one side and Kiri, Iwa, and Kuma on the other. With Kabuto and Obito pulling the strings. Then only at the end do you have the villages unite with Sasuke arriving at that point.

    You could of had numerous interesting fights and even created some unique characters for the war. Imagine reading every week wondering if your favorite character survives? But Kishi didn't want his young characters killing anyone. So we ended up with zombie and zetsu/juubi clones for them to fight. Kishi wanted a war, but one that was cleansed of all its brutality.
    Which is hilarious if you think about it given Kishimoto's emphasis on how utterly unforgiving war is, and how traumatizing it can be. All that buildup, and this is the payoff? I mean really…

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member videogamer64's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    I've always hated Obito and always will.

    The ten tails is disappointing. It deserved to have its own mind

    I hated Madara at first when he was only talking about how great Hashirama was, but now I'm starting to like him in how he takes nothing seriously and just brushes everything off with funny faces

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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    i loved madaras personality at first

    now he seems a bit pathetic

    not as pathetic as obito though

    however i am glad to see obito show some balls last chapter

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    I've said me piece more than once on why I think this "war arc" has fallen flat on it's face. So I'm not really going to go into that. I basically just agree with what Rikudou King said on a lot of "why" of it. So I'm going to focus instead on how I think it could have been "improved".

    Here's are 10 things I would have tried to convince Kishimoto to do differently had I been his editor.

    Spoiler: My top 10 show
    Couldn't agree more, your really hit basically everything that was wrong with it. But to me before the war started there was a lot of potential with the Danzou situation more than anything else.

    I always wished that Danzou hadn't died so easily and that Sasuke perhaps killed someone else and was painted as more of a villain who could only be redeemed with self sacrifice through death. It would have then been nice to see Danzou's Konoha vs. Naruto's Konoha. You could then have Danzou worrying about both the alliance and a rebellion, you'd put Gaara in a tough spot because does he stay loyal to Konoha? Or to his friends? Then you start adding in the 3 other major countries and you have one hell of a story.

    I honestly always thought Tobi was going to start another war through deceit and lies. Have the villages fight one another, but instead he just united them all. Zetsu's clone ability would have been perfect for this. Say have Temari or Kankuro killed and replaced as a means to manipulate Gaara. Actually have Bee dead so the Raikage would forever hate Sasuke and by proxy Naruto who wanted to defend him. Bring up the bad blood between Konoha and Iwa. There's literally dozens of ways to make this story better, yet Kishi ignored all of that so he could use fan service in an ill attempt to make everyone happy.

    This is all of course a pipe dream though.
    Last edited by Delbi; July 07, 2013 at 04:00 AM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  14. #56
    MH's Best Reviewer MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Couldn't agree more, your really hit basically everything that was wrong with it. But to me before the war even started there was more potential with the Danzou situation than anything else.

    I always wished that Danzou hadn't died so easily, that Sasuke perhaps killed someone else and was painted as more of an a villain who could only be redeemed with self sacrifice through death. It would have then been nice to see Danzou's Konoha vs. Naruto's Konoha. You could then have Danzou worrying about both the alliance and a rebellion, you'd put Gaara in a tough spot because does he stay loyal to Konoha or to his friends? Then you start adding in the 3 other major countries and you have one hell of a story.

    I honestly always thought Tobi was going to start another war through deceit and lies. Have the villages fight one another, but instead he just united them all. Zetsu's clone ability would have been perfect for this. Say have Temari or Kankuro killed and replaced as a means to manipulate Gaara. Actually have Bee dead so the Raikage forever hated Sasuke and by proxy Naruto who wanted to defend him. Bring up the bad blood between Konoha and Iwa. There's literally dozens of ways to make this story better that Kishi ignored so he could use fan service in an ill attempt to make everyone happy.

    This is all of course a pipe dream though.
    I agree and while it's too late for anything in the story to change now, I think there is value in figuring out exactly where things went "wrong".

    Changeing the Danzou encouter would have been interesting like you said but I see a lot of other things around that point of the manga that could have similarly improved this war down the line.

    Tobi's idiotic declaration of his plan to the world was a big one.
    If that hadn't been done it would have opened up the opportunity for a village like Hidden Rock to actually take Akatsuki's side. There are dozens of possibilities off of that alone.

    I think Danzou, the way the turtle island arc was handled, and what happened with Konan all squandered similar opportunities.
    Jammin's Recommended Reading
    The Gamer [Esp. for Everybody]
    I Don't Want This Kind of Hero [Esp. for Superhero/Comedy fans]
    Girls of the Wild's [Esp. for Romance/Martial Arts fans.]
    Ultimate Legend: Kang Hae Hyo [Esp. for Delinquent/Comedy fans]
    Otogi Taisen Fantasma [Esp. for Harem Fans]

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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    jammin you pretty much the nail on the head

    edo tensei was ok but it was over used and watered down

    and i am ok with tobi being obito, i actually predicted it

    i am just not ok with him being such a pusst once his identity was revealed

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisame Hoshigaki View Post
    and i am ok with tobi being obito, i actually predicted it

    i am just not ok with him being such a pusst once his identity was revealed
    Well that's the thing. To me, the only way Obito could have been Madara was if Madara's consciousness was implanted into him, and if the real Obito was completely erased. I wouldn't even want a sliver of hope of Obito beating Madara back because that's been done so many times. Let Obito be this tragedy, let Madara fully take him over like Orochimaru wanted to do with Sasuke (which, I might add, would have been a perfect origin for Orochimaru's technique if it was originally Madara's).
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    i like the idea of the two of them.working together

    i would think obitos body would have too many limitations for madars fighting style

    unless by taking him over he retains all of his own abilites also, like more of a fusion than a take over

  20. #60
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Official dissapointment in madara, obito & the entire war arc thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Except that's a war not a genocide. Genocides are what happened in Rowanda. But that's not what we have here.
    The French Revolution ended up killing numerous people who had been on their own side by their own hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    That's not breaking the cycle of hate, The cycle of hate is eternal fighting due to people getting revenge for fallen comrades. Making an alliance to attack someone is not breaking the cycle, it's promoting it. Additionally, Jiraiya, Nagato, and Minato have all given this charge to Naruto, not Gaara. Where does Danzou promote the Uchiha revolt? He kept an eye on them but he didn't encourage dissent.
    That is breaking the cycle according to the series. The entire point is getting said people to forgive those responsible for the death of their comrades, thereby removing any reason for them to want revenge. And the Alliance attacking Madara and Obito isn't promoting anything. There's no cycle if there's nobody would would want to avenge their deaths, and there isn't anybody who cares about Madara or Obito. That's a moot issue, seeing as Naruto was also given the charge to save Sasuke and yet he had nothing to do with it. And it was outright stated that the Uchiha's revolted due to Danzo and the council discriminating against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    They were all battle royales. Instead of having 2-3 one-on-one fights you have 5-10. That's not a war. It's bigger, but they still aren't wars. The only one close was FMA. At least Naruto does offer more than a battle royale.
    Pretty sure that would be considered a war, since normally people don't have one on one fights in wars. Naruto hasn't offered anything we weren't already getting, and less then what we had been promised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    It's quacking like a duck. The problem is that you're looking for a goose. The issue isn't the duck.
    The issue is very much that, since we were told what the duck should look like and yet this "duck" we got looks nothing like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    There's plenty to correct, For starters you're using the wrong measuring stick. You're applying the rules for a marathon to a 1 km race. You're looking for signs of a drawn-out war, things that occur over a period of years, not 2 days and you're crying fowl? People aren't impacted? Are you serious? Ino and Shikamaru aren't impacted by the deaths of their fathers? Hinata, Lee, Hiashi and Naruto weren't impacted by the death of Neji, not to mention that 60,000 shinobi that have already died. Death is pretty impactful. Maybe not to you but it is to them. Yet you turn a blind eye to this because you don't see fodder suffering from PTSD or wanting to kill themselves uncontrollably from seeing the "horrors" of war. So yeah, you're placing unreasonable preconditions on the war and ignoring what's taking place because it doesn't happen the way you want it to. That's not how it works.
    No, I'm applying the rules given for wars in the series to judge said war. The series have given us several examples of characters being changed straight away during their war experience. A panel of crying and then going right back to how they were is not being impacted. And you mention the 60,000 deaths, yet not a single character has mentioned or reacted to any of those deaths. Death doesn't have an impact if it's basically ignored by the characters and leads to no evolving. And again you're making random declarations about what I'm expected despite me never claiming such. What I was expecting was declarations and resolutions to ensure peace by any means (Itachi), to change the system so there wouldn't be any more deaths (Yahiko, Nagato), and to protect one's remaining comrades (Mifune, Kakashi). These aren't random and unreasonable preconditions that were shown in a drawn out situation, these are preconditions that had actually been shown before occurring straight away upon those characters experiencing the horrors of war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Convincing others to put aside their differences to attack a common foe is not breaking the cycle. If that was true then Orochimaru broke the cycle of hate when the Sound and Sand villages attacked the Leaf. They are exactly the same scenario. The cycle may get suspended but it always starts up again, even Nagato said this which is why his approach was temporary. The cycle never breaks they're still looking for someone to break it and that person won't be Gaara.
    That's the way it works according to the series. That's exactly what happen with Zabuza and Gaara. And what? Why would Orochimaru teaming up with Suna imply the above, when there was no differences to put aside between Oto and Suna. And arguing the logical reason why there wouldn't be peace really doesn't change what has been said, since it applies to Naruto too. Logically, any peace achieved isn't gonna last more then a few generations after his death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    For their own civil war maybe, but when foreign powers conduct wars in your own territory means your power is insufficient to protect your own borders. You are not a force that can address the full might of the bigger nations.
    By that logic, Konoha's power is insufficient since it was incapable of preventing a war right in it's own border. The fact remains that they were shown equal participants in those wars and quite a few powerful ninjas (Hanzo, Kakuzu, Nagato, Konan, and Hidan) came from minor villages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Last time I checked Rukia wasn't a lieutenant or a captain when she took hers down and there were other 3rd and lower seeds who destroyed esapada in Kakakura town.

    A history? They were all created after Aizen went to Hueco Mundo a history of maybe 3 months. They served nothing more than being an obstacle for another 1-on-1 fight. They had nice backstories but you could extract almost all of them from the story and the plot would still go on. They weren't essential to the story. The same is true for the Edo Tensei they were a set of disposable enemy lieutenants that the Alliance are meant to overcome. The constraint that Kishi had that others don't is that many of them couldn't be dispelled or killed, just sealed. While that may not be palatable it's better than just fighting a 100,000 zetsu. No one would buy that scenario so Kishi had 2 choices: Edo Tensei or a the Unknown Village of 100,000 Shinobi. Only one of these actually exists so we got the Edo Tensei.
    It was implied that Byakuya had been keeping her from being promoted. And no, no Espada's were taken down by anyone below a lieutenant. You're thinking of Ikkaku and Yumichika, who took down Numeros members.

    Not in-series history, thought their personal histories extend far before Aizen's arrival. You couldn't remove the Espada without radically changing the whole story. The majority of the Espada were very essential to the story. The only one who could be taken out without an effect on the overall plot was Zommari. It's not a constraint when he was the one who came up with it, nor when he had them sealed so easily that it became moot. Again, if he could change the amount of ninjas in the major villages, he could have done the same with the minor villages without problem. Heck, if he was willing to have half of Akatsuki come from the minor villages, then there's no reason he couldn't have made more come from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    It was foreshadowing it doesn't have to be explained right away, but it points to the real target. That's the purpose of the plot device. That's why you need a statue of Izuna at the waterfall but don't have it. Then there was the plothole that Izuna was dead before Madara. The reason why its Obito and not Izuna is simple. Time. Time is the one element that people in this world can't change. Tsunade could change her looks but she still in her 50's. Why would Izuna wait 60+years until he was in his 80's-90's to attack the world? Why not sooner? Having to connect an old person to someone in the relative present (i.e. Obito meeting Madara) is more practical than having Izuna sit on the sidelines waiting 60 years when he should be pushing a walker to commence an attack on the shinobi world. That's just silly.
    Doesn't change the main point, that there's only been one more mention of Madara then Izuna. There isn't a statue of Tobirama either, yet his strength and inclusion isn't in question, now is it. Arguing that having it be Izuna would make a plothole is moot when Obito's entire situation created a far greater plothole then Izuna being alive would have. The same reason Madara waited 50+ years and Obito waited 15 years, just because. How exactly is Izuna plotting and setting things up for 60+ years due to his admittedly injured body less practical then Madara doing the same and then suddenly lucking onto a random Uchiha to continue said waiting before starting an unneeded war? At least with Izuna there would be an explanation as to why Tobi relied on a single technique and stayed hidden away, instead of the just because explanation we get with Obito.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Tsuande is in her 50's. She's the granddaughter of Hashirama. That puts Hashirama at 90 now. So Izuna is in his late 80's early 90's. Why is someone who should be in a wheelchair now combating the entire world where Sarutobi who is 10-15 years younger is already in decline. That a bigger retcon than making Obito Tobi which is chronologically possible. There is a reason why Onoki flies around, he can't walk and has severe health issues. Even he isn't immune to time while Tobi can run around without impairment, A worse retcon.
    Your math is off. Hashirama would be in his 70's-80's, since Konoha was only founded 60 years ago. Izuna was in his teens when he died, meaning he would be in his 60's-70's now. And age is a moot argument, since as previous mentioned, there are several examples of elderly ninjas fully capable of fighting. Onoki can walk, and his "health issues" have only been used for comedy. And seeing as both Chiyo and Danzo ran around without issue, there ould ahve been no retcon.

    And no, Obito being Tobi wasn't chronologically possible. It screwed up the timeline of events that we had been given involving the Ame orphans and the various wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Yes, you do. These are two distant points in time. Over 60+ years has passed. Why didn't these events happen sooner? You have to link them together somehow, Kishi chose to take Madara and link him to present via Obito who is tied to this timeline. Next, you need to have Obito have a link to present so he would take a stand against it. That link is Kakashi, Otherwise why would he accept Madara's charge in wanting to change it unless he was wronged somehow. Using Izuna is a much harder sell because not only do you have to explain why the hell it took 60 years to get things ready you have to demonstrate how he capable of functioning as a 90-year old spiteful ninja. Kishi chose the former.
    No you don't. If there's no explanation for why Madara waited as long as he did or why Obito waited so long, then there doesn't need to be an explanation as to why Izuna waited so long. And Obito's "link" to Kakashi doesn't explain at all why he decided to ignore Kakashi and wait 15 years to strike. Your argument about Izuna having to provide something neither Madara nor Obito have provided makes no sense. And Kishi gave us the aforementioned elderly ninjas to show that it would have been possible, along with granting Tobi an excuse for being weaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And what caused Kakashi to kill her, because she was infused with the Sanbi and they had to stop it. And why was she infused with the Sanbi because the Mist village wanted to destroy the Leaf village. Why? Because of a previous grievance. That grievance whatever it was is part of the cycle of hate. The eternal never ending struggle that the shinobi system can't break out of. Obito's actions while selfish in nature has the effect of altering the entire system, It's not a vehicle of fear like Nagato's was but one of illusion that Madara is promoting...supposedly. If it wasn't all-encompassing it wouldn't be much if a threat.
    Kakashi killed her because Rin jumped in front of his attack in an act of suicide. And what previous grievance? As far as we know, Kiri doesn't have any grievance against Konoha. It was a simple act of war. Obito's actions aren't gonna alter anything, beyond granting him complete control of the world, which doesn't change anything for everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    And in terms of story "time" Pain was calling the shots for a few months then Tobi was for even less. Does it break the space-time continuum, no. The issue is how long did it take Jiraiya to train Minato after he left the Ame orphans, and how much time passed before Obito became a student of Minato. Could all this happen before Yahiko died? There is nothing to really prevent this since graduation dates for various cells were never given.
    In-story, Tobi had been controlling the entire thing from the shadows since the beginning. And no, the issues is greater then you claim. Obito's retcon have the Ame orphans still being teens during the Third War, meaning the end of the Second War and their training with Jiraiya wasn't that long ago. Not to mention that it now puts Minato's training before theirs. It also extended the Third War longer, since it was still going on when the Ame orphans were in their early adulthood and the situation with Danzo happen. Plus it makes it so that the sannins didn't become the "Sannins" til late in their life. And Rin being made into the Sanbi Jinchuuriki means that Yagura had already been killed, which makes the whole situation with who was controlling him questionable again. Finally, it screws up Sasori and Suna's history, since we were given exact ages and years involving his childhood. Things have just become a bigger mess then before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Kishi disagrees with you. Obviously dad's talk wasn't sufficient because Kakashi is still hung up on the past almost as much as Tobi is. Kishi also feels the same because Kakashi is still struggling with his personal image of Obito from his past and the present one he is currently fighting.
    Don't see how. You're gonna have to show where Kishi showed Kakashi still being hung up on the past after his talk with his dad, because nothing of the sort was shown til he retcon everything to fit Obito in.

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