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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
Wow! I was actually trying to argue with someone who throws nothing but childish remarks, massive contradictions (Obito is even ashamed) and petty insults, and then goes on to tell me go get a dictionary. But at the same time, my spellchecker went crazy while I was going through your quotes...
If I'd have a choice between my spellchecker and your nonsense, I'll take the checker.
Your credibility : -10/10.
I should've known better...
Last edited by IChallengeYou!; June 26, 2013 at 02:20 PM.
And, for the record, you started with the snide comments.
Yeah, this war as been a major disappointment, and I can't see how anyone can say differently. This war is nothing like a war should be, real or fictional. It's been more like a bunch of random fights linked together randomly. There's an obvious lack of cohesion and consistency throughout the whole arc.
Issue 1: This war has no reason for happening. There's no logical reason behind the war other then Kishi's love for fan-service. Obito had no need to declare war against the five nations just to get his hands on the last two Jinchuurikis, especially since he had to actually allow one of those Jinchuurikis to go free. All this war has done has caused him needless problems that could have easily been avoided. The very fact that he required external aid from Kabuto to even last a day says plenty.
Issue 2: This war not being a "war". As said before, this war can't even be called a war with the way it has been handled. It's nothing but a bunch of random fights all tied together simply because they happen near one another. And this war can't be compared to "other shounen wars". Those wars had an actual purpose, and lived up to the idea of war.
Issue 3: The obvious lack of tension. From the very beginning, the Alliance has had the edge against the villains, and they maintained that edge nearly the entire arc. The only time there was any real tension was with the revival of Edo Madara, and Kishi threw in so many psyche! moments that even that lost any tension. It didn't help that Madara basically decided to simply screw around instead of actually trying to bring about the plan he had wasted his life on. More importantly, there has been no consequences to things. We're told that Naruto couldn't use his new mode else he would kill himself, yet right after he constantly employs it without any risk.
There was previous mention about "deaths of secondary characters" being pointless. The point isn't the deaths, it's that they face the possibility of death, which creates tension and makes us actually care. The heroes always succeeding without any real challenge is lame. what's the point of caring about them fighting if we don't have to worry about them losing? Those other shounen wars, there was a clear feeling of tension in them. Even with Bleach's Winter War, it wasn't clear who was safe and who was on the chopping block.
Issue 4: Lame villains. As touched upon previously, the villains of this war barely pose any challenge. We were told about these legendary ninjas from the past, but they proved as impressive as random fodder. Their introduction was nothing more then fan-service and once that was given, they were gone. Even Madara, who started off so impressive, quickly became boring with his habit of just letting the Alliance do as they please. And the fact that the heroes outnumber the villains just make things worst.
Issue 5: Horrible pacing. Probably the second worst offense, the crappy pacing. Even if it was only fan-service, things would have been nice had we been given some interesting fights. But all that we were given were teasing of what could have been. And in their place, we're given nearly a hundred chapters of Naruto vs Obito where the plot barely develops. We got a bunch of needlessly boring chapters with only a handful of interesting ones.
Issue 6: Obito. The worst offense of all was the revelation that Tobi was Obito. Not only did it retcon hundreds of past chapters, but it accomplished nothing more then a pointless attempt to provoke drama, which it failed at. The very fact that Obito basically spent hundreds of chapter ignoring Kakashi makes his sudden interest stupid and random. And we really didn't need another person to be a counterpart with Naruto. We already have half a dozen people for that, one more was unneeded. Heck, Nagato was only a arc before and was a world's better counterpart. Kishi should have stuck with Tobi being Madara or more preferably, Izuna. It would have been the prefect opportunely to give Sasuke a counterpart other then Orochimaru.
Yeah I disliked this war as well, it just never seemed threatening and too few people died, I would have liked the konoha 12 to become like the konoha 7 or something, it just seems wrong that so few people have died.
also the edo tensei was annoying, why not make a few super powerful zetsus and have them face off against a few people? it seems better.
I dunno, the whole arc has been a let down, ever since kisame died
The Arc went to hell when the fighting actually started. The Edo Tensei aspect would have been awesome if it had a real impact, but every one of the Edo Tensei easily lost.
Sarutobi said it best way back in the day when he admonished Orochimaru before their battle: 'nothing good will come from trifling with time!'
Kishi really should have heeded his own advice. This painfully long, drawn-out war arc essentially boiled down to a set of top trumps: past vs present, which he's never been able to reconcile because of one obvious glaring flaw:
All of the dead warriors are clearly superior to the current ones.
They have to be. Otherwise why bring them back?
Kishi writes great villains because he writes them as adults with serious powers and motives (excluding Obito after being de-masked). However, he's doing a shonen manga with dumb, plot-armoured protagonists, which means the villains must and do always lose. The only way to do this is by nerfing them with stupidity/arrogance/memory lapses or having the protagonist/s overpower them. A bunch of naive kids couldn't hope to outwit an experienced veteran in real life, even if he was weaker than them collectively, extolled by Kishi himself in the Sasuke/Itachi fight when Black Zetsu says: 'a master with a stone can win against a novice with a shuriken'.
Back in the day there was a suspension of disbelief surrounding the manga, something that's clearly evaporated, if only going by this board. All I see now are threads griping about how shitty Naruto has become in one way or another, and they're rightfully placed, because it HAS become shitty.
People who say don't-like-it-don't-read-it can go fuck themselves too. Kishi doesn't owe me anything, but I reserve the right to criticise anything for its flaws, and his manga has literally reached the bare bones of its former quality.
Edo Tensei vs living things was bad enough, but now we have ET vs ET in Hashirama VS Madara, the epitome of pointless showcasing.
Orochimaru always was and is a cool, realistic character, but he's long since been cast into complete irrelevance.
Now Sasuke has become good-but-not-quite-good, he has no clear motives and frankly I'm so indifferent to what he does now I can't even say he's boring, just irrelevant.
Naruto can just go fuck himself. WAH WAH MY FRIENDS. WAH WAH ENTRUSTED. WAH WAH PEACE. He's become the goodly ninja version of those Westboro Baptist Church psychos. He's not so much a person now as just a loudspeaker-equipped megabus for a particular message.
In summary: boring, boring, boring, bloated, overblown, hashed out, strung-along, desperately weary arc doing nothing but smothering the fond memories of the previous ones.
this manga needs that to happen desperately
---------- Post added at 11:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------
There is a logical reason for the war. One of the themes Kishi has laid out is that Naruto is going to become the greatest ninja of all time, surpass even the kages. For that he needs a stage to accomplish this. Team 7 and maybe Gai's team could take out the last remaining Akatsuki. Naruto has already been acknowledged by his own village but he has not been acknowledged by the others. The only way for that to happen is if all the villages are involved in the same conflict and Naruto shines in their presence. The only venue that allows that to happen is a war.Quote:
Most wars are random fights between people. It's loosely controlled chaos, instead a better comparison is forces vs. forces and Kishi did do this in this series.. As stated above, several actions that occur during war were aptly shown in the chapters. It's intensity may not be to your liking but it has all the parts of a war. If you're expecting battles on par with Berserk or Claymore, that's not gonna happen. This is shounen not seinen. Many people want the blood/body part count to rise in this series, elevating Naruto to a misconceived level of maturity that it really isn't.Quote:
There have been many sources of tension in this series, from the appearance of the Edo Tenseo, the attack of the white zetsu on the medical corps, the apparent killing of Hinata, the appearance of the Gedo statue near the coastline, the appearance of Madara, the destruction of the Alliance HQ, and last of all the Jyuubi. Some tensions were fleeting and some lasted several chapters, but there is no set formula on how much tension a war needs to have.Quote:
The threat of death was there. Sai, Omoi, and Lee saw people die right next to them. Do we really need scenes of Lee getting stabbed mutliple times or having Hinata getting gang-raped to demonstrate the severity of war? Granted, the white zetsu didn't appear intimidating on the open battlefield so dying there would be super-lame, but getting killed by a doppleganger of a fellow comrade, that paralyzed the Alliance into complete dysfunction.
And the alternative is? 80,000 shinobi vs.2 Akatsuki? That's even lamer. A secret force of 100,000 rogue shinobi? That's the biggest retcon ever. Enemy lieutenants are usually feeble and lame. The Espada in Bleach. Just as lame. The humonculai in Full Metal Alchemist during the coup de tat? Just as lame. They may be more stylish than Edo Tensei, but the Edo Tensei have the additional restriction-that they can't be destroyed. So you can have Lee battle an Edo Tensei, but in the end it's just going to get sealed. Shino vs. a Mist 7-swordsman-sealed. Hinata vs. Deidara-sealed. So you can have all these one-on-one battles but they'll all proceed the same way-some uber attack that evenrtually results in a sealing. Kish decided to take the focus away from that and it probably was the better call, but the downside is some uninspiring battles.Quote:
Yes, the chapter pacing and pacing of the arc as a whole has been poor. Kishi spread things out too much and he has to spend many chapters in transition so everything can catch up. A case of juggling too many eggs.Quote:
Why would anyone care if Tobi was Izuna? What relationship does Izuna have with anyone in the current shinobi world? He'd be a withered corpse who couldn't steal candy from a baby. Obito at least has a link to the current system, Kakashi. Sure, Tobi could have dogged Kakashi more, but then there would be no mystery. I think the problem with Obito is that people wanted Tobi to be this uber evil mysterious villian, and he wasn't. Tobi was aloof and cryptic, but never revealing. He had no identity (because people would immediately know it's Obito if he did) and so when the mask broke, people were disappointed. I'm not crazy about Obito, but I'm ok with Obito because he's just a lackey and not the main antagonist. Obito is much needed character development for Kakashi who has been more ignored than Sakura since Part 2 began. Kakashi needs this fight so that he can move on and stop going to that stupid shrine every morning. And if peeople think that Obito's 'retconned" hair causes the war to fail, they need to focus on more meaningful examples.Quote:
Nameless fodder dying means nothing. That's about as important as the Zetsus dying. And what? Where was it even implied that the people disappointed in this war desired mutilation and rape? Wanting them to fight like they're in actual danger is hardly calling for gang-rapes. And "paralyzed the Alliance in compete dysfunction"? When did that happen. Not only was the consequences of the clones barely gotten into, but Naruto arrived right after to solve everything. Heck, even before Naruto had arrived, they had already come up with some solutions as shown by Shikamaru's squad.
No, peoples problem was that Tobi being Obito made absolutely no sense and called for a massive retcon of everything that came before. And the entire point is that Tobi was being developed as the main antagonist. Neither Obito nor Kakashi were in need of any more character development. They had both been developed quite well and this current situation hasn't done anything for them except screw Obito's character over and hurt Kakashi, who is was nothing like Sakura as he was already a fine character. And why exactly does Kakashi need to stop visiting a grave? It's a reasonable habit and doesn't impact anything. Obito's "hair" is the least of the problems.
Not really. Was Sarutobi able to quell the cycle of hate in his own village by just talking to them? No, he was not. Even though he strove for peace he couldn't break the cycle of hate. He couldn't control the rebellious actions of the Uchiha by talking to them. He couldn't quell the resentment the village had for Naruto due to the rampage of the Kyuubi. When did the village turn around for Naruto, when they saw what he did against Pain. But in order for the village to change they had to be involved. The same goes for the ninja system. If the system wants to change it has to be involved, the cycle of hate has permeated its core, just saying "Let go of your hate!" isn't going to cut it.Quote:
The objectives are purposeful, the battles themselves are not. You can position forces, but you can't control the outcome with any sort of certainty. Not trying to single anyone out but many readers posted that increasing the intensity in terms of violence would somehow increase the maturity level of the series because it's now a "war" instead of 3-man cell action. Other shounen wars have fodder die but they haven't gotten the knee-jerk reaction this one has gotten even though they are very similar in scope.Quote:
Tension is tension. It doesn't have to last 60 seconds to count.Quote:
So by that logic WWII never happened. My great-uncle landed on Normandy in 1944, made it to VE Day without getting shot. Even though millions of "fodder" died, there was no war because nothing happened to my great uncle, Mac Arthur, Eisenhower, Roosevelt, or Churchill. There is NO distinction, you use the same measuring stick in war whether it's fictional or real life. Over 60,000 shinobi are dead. It's a war, there are no addendums or benchmarks that need to be achieved a priori.Quote:
Except for one major distinction. In your scenario, no one wants to break out of the cycle of hate. They're still trapped like rats in their little cages. In Kishi's scenario they take a stand against Madara, they want to control their own lives and destinies instead of being duped and fighting senselessly for all eternity. Second, yes there are other nations states but they don't add up to the size of the big Five. The Sound Village is the only other village with siginficant numbers to send candidates for the chuunin exam. Like I said, the biggest retcon ever. Thirdly, yeah they were lame. Flashy with weak character flaws, but lame. No more effective than the Edo Tensei were. Certain Edo Tensei did utilize their new invulnerability. Zabuza did on Kakashi. Just because they didn't have the Top 10 Ways to Kill your Opponent using Edo Tensei doesn't mean it wasn't utilized by the enemy. You didn't see people solo-tanking any of them. It required multiple people and the end results was sealing because you couldn't defeat them-just seal them. Certain people might find another 150 chapters of mangs that result in sealing Edo Tensei 15 times in s row meaningful, but I don't.Quote:
Except that Izuna was only a footnote, a method to how Madara got the MS. If Izuna was weaved more into the story like Madara was, then it would have a chance. However, the final nail in the coffin is time. He was too old. Not even Madara could beat the passage of time so why would Izuna? Villians need some connection with the present to explain their desire to destroy it, especially masked ones. Obito had Kakashi, Izuna had no one, not even Sasuke. Might as well make the main villian John Smith at that point.Quote:
Obito's reason makes perfect sense. Nagato wanted to change the system because the system killed Yahiko, why can't Obito do it to reunite with Rin who was also killed by the system. Hell, it's the main theme in Full Metal Alchemist. Our mom died, hit the reset button. My baby died, hit the reset button. So why can't Obito hit the reset button for Rin? Yeah, Tobi was being portrayed as the main villian, but so was Pain for a good part of Part II. Yet all the while Madara was slipped in here and there throughout the story. Two plot twists as to who the real enemy is isn't that big a deal in a manga. Happens all the time. Kakashi definitely needs Obito to move on. If Tobi wasn't Obito Kakashi'd be stuck on his treadmill going to the memorial stone and blowing off Team 7's morning missions. He needs this to move on, settling the score with Obito will allow him to do that. Having Tobi be John Smith won't.Quote:
Last edited by Brill; June 28, 2013 at 04:33 PM.
people forget one things. this war need for united and change ninja system
And exactly how can you say the other nations don't measure up to the size of the major villages when we know both Kusa and Ame were capable of fighting against them? It's not even as if we've been given the size of their forces. If Kishi can suddenly bump up the number of ninjas in Konoha from a couple of hundred to a couple of thousands, he can easily have done the same with the lesser villages. The Chuunin Exam? You mean the one that didn't have any ninjas from Kumo, Iwa, or Kiri? By your logic, their forces must not have had any significant forces. And Oto sent the least number of ninjas. Kusa and Taki sent twice as many as Oto, and Ame only sent nine less then Suna.
How can you call them lame? They had actual history and a purpose beyond a single arc of showing off. Not only that, but they were actually built up as a threat, with the seeds planted long before the war arcs. And they were worlds more effective then the Edo summons. Aside from Madara and Itachi, the Edo summons haven't done a thing plotwise. And when did Zabuza make actual use of his invulnerability? His regeneration didn't come into play at all against Kakashi. And you're missing the point. The very fact that the Alliance were able to seal them to stop them completely makes them pointless. They could have easily been replaced by living targets with the same results. The whole regenerating warrior thing is moot if it isn't used.
Except one, Kakashi isn't the reason Obito is doing anything. It's Rin, who's been dead quite a while. Two, Izuna had a reason, the Uchiha clan and Konoha, who betrayed his brother. And three, nothing is being destroyed. The villain's goal is an infinite illusion. If the reason for Obito's actions can be wanting to live in an illusion with the dead Rin, then Izuna's actions can just as easily be wanting to live in a illusion with his brother.
Pain was only portrayed as such for a hundred some chapters. Tobi had twice that going for him. And it wasn't simply Madara being slipped in. Not only was it heavily implied, it was outright stated multiple times. It is quite a big deal when it causes massive retcons and makes no sense. And no, Kakashi didn't need to move on. As mentioned, it doesn't affect anything. It hasn't even been shown against since Part One or impacted any of the missions he has been sent on with Naruto and co. It's not even as if he's in a position to train or go on a mission with them anymore. Team Seven is grown and independent. There wasn't even a score to settle before this stupid revelation turn Obito from the one good Uchiha to a crazy crackpot.
pardon me , but there was any war arc !?Quote: