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While the Kyuubi has been there since the beginning of the story, being a huge power, granted, it's not wrong for Naruto to finally use its powers that has been expected since chapter 1... BUT... Oh dear G.. It's so freaking lame now!
Naruto was pretty badass when he fought Pain, heck even the Kyuubi part was awesome in that fight, because it was balanced.
I could write a huge post as well as many others has done, but I'll make my opinion short...
This manga has gone downhill ever since Naruto learned to use the Kyuubi's powers.
Especially the war in itself was simple, boring, overall predictable, and only one important character died to make it feel like a war. Yet it still felt like a sacrifice purely in the attempth to make a sacrifice to make the war feel real, like "Oh I better kill someone important at this late point in the war to make this war feel real" - Smell of Fake!
I don't like simple story writing, and ever since Naruto got the Kyuubi and the War started, the story of Naruto has dropped to a whole new low level, that I simply can't accept.
The only reason I continue to read is because I want to see how it ends, and I suppose, a tiny hope that Kishi can improve the story again, but I doubt it.
Once it has fallen, it has fallen, it'll take 10 times the work to get it back on its feet again, and I don't think Kishi can do that.
I loved this manga early on, especially part 1 and part 2 was interesting to begin with, especially 3 battles gave hope for an epic manga future, Jiraiya vs. Pain, Naruto vs. Pain and Sasuke vs. Itachi. Yet the story failed epicly after those 3 battles instead, everything is Quantity rather than Quality.
Give back Quality battles Kishi.
Just my opinion, I don't clame any facts, so please leave it at that ^^
And Gaara didn't do that. There was no forgiveness. They didn't have a group moment of zen they just supressed their distrusts and agreed to fight a common foe. That isn't breaking the cycle. Just because some tree isn't going to stab you in the middle of the night in revenge doesn't mean the Shinobi Alliance is free of the cycle of hate. It will still be there when they attack the next village. People are seeing their friends die, even Naruto is trying to control his emotions after Neji died. The cycle of hate is present in this war even if one side isn't human.Quote:
A battle between small villages, maybe, but not a war. Where was the marine invasion in Bleach? Where were the covert assasinations happening in One Piece? There may have been a scout or two who got killed in FMA but this series has several different encounters that the others clearly lacked.Quote:
It was a duck, you just weren't impressed by it. It's still a duck, regardless.Quote:
The rules for a protracted war, not one that is as accelerated as this one is. The only ones who've experienced "war' are the Rain children and they're all dead. The Alliance most certainly did react to their deaths. The first moment the 7 swordsmen almost broke the ranks of the third division they were frozen until Gai bolstered the ranks with some dialogue. You also seem to forget that they're professional shinobi, not kids from the farms of the countryside. They have been fighting for years and you're complaining that they don't break ranks after the first shinobi falls? Everyone realizes the importance of this fight and that if they lose it's over for the entire world. Naruto is naively trying to prevent people from dying (but it's war, people die), plus Sakura is healing as many as she can. Lastly, Hinata and Neji did sacrifice themselves for others. How many more acts of your preconditions do you need to be satisfied. They've all been accomplished by Kishi.Quote:
Because the exact thing happened there. The Sand and Sound joined forces to destroy a common threat, the Leaf. Gaara does the exact same thing. He convinces the various armies to fight against Madara, the guy who's threatening global genjutsu lobotomy. So any time two villages join forces it breaks the cycle of hate? No, it doesn't. It takes something more that we haven't seen yet. The success of this series depends on how Kishi decides to proceed.Quote:
Being invaded by a foreign power in a surprise attack then defeating them is different than having 2 foreign countries fighting a war of proxy in your own county like it was in the Rain village. The Leaf not only defended itself, it won the battle/war. The Rain village got destrpyed as two foreign powers trounced Nagato's country in their own feud. The Leaf wasn't powerless to stop the attacks, the Rain village was. They couldn't mount a sustained attack against the big 5 if they tried.Quote:
You reduce the number of fights but you don't impact the story at all. Ichigo could still reach Orihime without the presence of the Espada. They aren't essential.Quote:
Actually, there is a statue of Tobirama in the Village. He was established into the storyline on many occasions, not in passing as a footnote onto how Madara got his eyes. Does the Kyuubi say you have the eyes of Izuna? No. Does Itachi say his accomplice has the power of Izuna Uchiha? No. You're counting references and giving them equal weight when the reality is they have completely different levels of meaning. Izuna is a worse plothole because there is no plausible way a 90-year old ninja can spar with everyone. Madara tries to last that long ans he coudln't so he had to give his charge to Obito. That's the problem with your alternative scenario. Some guy in a walker is going to be doing cartwheels and complex maneuvers just because you don't like Tobi being Obito. Reality can only be stretched so far.Quote:
You're saying Mito and Tsunade's mom had kids at the age of 10? That's not biologically possible. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say 20 each. That puts Hashirama in the 90's along with Izuna. People in the '70's capable of fighting, yes, but they are in decline. Not people in their 90's. It's too far, and too much of a stretch.Quote:
Not at all. All you need is for Jiaraya to teach Minato who may have been trained before the Ame orphans. we don't know. Then give some time for Minato to teach Obito. That could easily take place before Yahiko is killed.Quote:
Yes you do. You're trying to have a feud being realized 60+ years after the fact. It is reasonable to make an elite organization of S-class criminals from scratch in 14-16 years. It is unreasonable to have someone sit around for 45+ years doing nothing then starting up an organization over the next 14-16 years. Why the war now? Why not 50 years ago? There's nothing special about the conditions now, that weren't there 60 years ago. So why wait 50 years to do something? It makes no sense. Having Madara pass the torch of hatred to Obtio to continue this feus is cheesy, but doable. Having Izuna sit on his ass for 50 years then start to do something that cumulates in a battle when he's 90 years old is just stupid.Quote:
And why the self-sacrifice? Because Kakashi was in denial that Rin was doomed. What was the root cause of Rin's death. Yeah, Kakashi killed her, but why. Because Rin was trapped in a plot to destroy Konoha. Were the Mist at Konoha at war? Not that we know of. So Rin was killed by one of the many plots of the system. These plots all emenate from the repetive cycke of hate that plagues the shinobi system.Quote:
The manga doesn't tell when Obito meets the Rain orphans, only that it happend before Yahiko dies.. They could be in their twenties in those panels. No dates were given. Minato's training could have been given before the Ame orphans. Once again the manga doesn't tell us when that happens. Dates weren't given as to when the Sannin got their titles, only that they had a battle with Hanzou. We know these events happens but we don't know when. Yet eveyone claims plothole does so because they think they know, when the truth of the matter is that we don't know exactly when these things happened. There's enough uncertainty in so many events that invocation of plothole is almost impossible to prove.Quote:
It happened 3-4 chapters ago. If Kakashi was over it, he wouldn't be worried about preserving the memory of the earlier Obito. Talk with dear old Dad didn't change him. He needed this encounter to be able to move on, he clearly hasn't.Quote:
Though it's a bit late but:
ON topic: War could have been better if it wasn't for fan services provided in that arc and winding it up in a hurry,
Also instead of relying on a heavenly aid of Kabuto's ET army, Tobi should have some thing (Nuke level) up in his sleeve.
Also if it could turned in a three way battle i.e. Alliance VS Obito Vs Kabuto, that would have been great.
Or have the minor villages be their opponents, instead of just forgetting about them in such a critical battle.
I'm so close to giving up on this, especially now that Tobi is the "pure evil". I call bullshit. As long as Madaras trick isn't the sage of 6 paths then I might not be giving up but it's right there now where I'm just about to go "fuck this"
Because Kishi had to show some distrust so the Alliance is more than a paper tiger when it formed. It doesn't mean the cycle was broken, especially when Kishi has Jiraiya, Nagato, and Minato all state that Naruto will be the one to do it. Gaara does manage to form an alliance, but that doesn't mean the cycle of hate was broken. The Sand and Leaf formed an alliance and the cycle of hate was still present. Shikamaru said as much if Ino or Choji died they would go off in revenge. So even if you have an alliance formed, the cycle of hatred still persists. Gaara made a big alliance but that doesn't break the cycle of hate from the individual members within that alliance.Quote:
No, they're not. War is more than just a battle royale which is what most shounen wars are. Wars has evolved into many types on armed manuevers and actions on a big scale. You deploy forces, setup lines of defense. penetrate enemy lines, commando attacks, commit reinfforcements, even setup triage. It's more than 10-20 people duking it out until there is one winner. That's not a war, that's a battle royale.Quote:
But it is a duck. You just don't like the duck. That's the issue here.Quote:
Evolution is fine, but it happens to people afterwards, not as the events are happening to them. After the war concludes several people will change most likely. But we aren't there yet. The war is still happening and you're not happy that people aren't different yet. It's been 24-36 hours since the war began, you have to give the character some time to process what's happened to them. No one changes that quickly.Quote:
We don't know the history between the Sand and Sound, but they did unite against a common foe. The same thing happens with the Shinobi alliance. They formed an alliance against a common foe, but it both cases the cycle of hate was not broken. Just because they fight united doesn't mean they're free of the cycle of hate.Quote:
Yeah, Orochimaru was involved, but Konoha didn't know where and they didn't know when. They didn't know that the Sand was also involved and had penetrated their borders already. Konoha routed the combined might of both villages without the intervention of Gaara. Just shows how desparate the plan was to begin with. They couldn't win the conventional way they needed a bijuu to destroy the village in order to win. That's how powerful Konoha was. Yes the Ame was fighitng in those wars, and lost. The country was ravaged by the wars happening around them. Hanzou even needed help from the Leaf to supress its own civil war, just showing how fractured and poweless a nation it truly was. It can't take care of itself let alone take on the Big 5 even with assistance.Quote:
Except the issue here is plot and not storyline. They weren't eseential to the plot. Whether Ichigo gets to Orihime in 1 battle or 4 doesn't prevent Aizen from going to Karakura town to destroy the Soul Society. That's why they're pointless. Flashy, but pointless.Quote:
He was established three times. Once during the battle between Orochimaru and Sarutobi, once when the brothers decided to make Sarutobi the 3rd Hokage, and the battle that claimed Tobriama's life. He was actually placed into the story. Was izuna? No, not until after Tobi's unveiling and we went into the flashback on the founding of the village. If this flashback was incorporated into the storyline before Tobi's unveiling Izuna could be a candidate rather than a footnote.Quote:
However, that doesn't change the fact that's Izuna's over 90. How old were Hashirama and Madara when the village was founded assuming it was founded 60 years ago (even this is debatable)? 10? That would make Izuna 70 now. 20? That would make Izuna 80 now. 30? that would make Izuna 90 in the present time line. We don't know their ages when the village was founded. The only person's age we DO know is Tsunade. She's in her 50's in the present time. Assuming both Tsunade's mom and Mito had their children at 20, that would put Mito at 90 in the current time line. That would put Hashirama, Madara, and Izuna in their early 90's and that's not considering both women having their kids later in life or Tsunade being in her upper '50's. Izuna could easily be 100 in the present time line.
See above. If Tsunade were Hashirama's daughter, you'd be in the right time frame. Unfortunately, she's his granddaughter. That puts Hashirama well into his 30's when the village was founded. Same with Izuna, he's only a few years younger than Madara. Saying Onoki and Izuna are the same age is ridiculous. We have no idea how old Onoki is, we know that Onoki knew Madara but was he a genin, or chuunin, or jounin when he did? It's unclear. Not to mention the one blatant fact about Izuna. if Tobi was Izuna, he wouldn't have black hair, it'd be white like Onoki's. Izuna is likely older than Onoki his hair'd be whiter not black like Tobi's. It's just not physically possible to make Izuna Tobi. It's a worse retcon than Obito.Quote:
Which have absolutely nothing to do with Tobi being Obito. It doesn't prevent Obito from not meeting Yahiko before he dies. That is the only real condition and there's nothing to refute that.Quote:
Because you're trying to provide an alternative scenario for being Tobi instead of what Kishi has written. Having Obito form an organziation in 15 years is believablle. Having Izuna form one 50 years after doing nothing is not. Haivng Madara exisitng in a pathetic state waiting for Obito to come along to enact his revenge is a hell of a lot better than having his brother trying to do something 60 years later well into his 90's.Quote:
That's right and the cycle of hate never stops. So the fighting continues for generations. The fighting is still continuuing by villages instead of roaming nomads. The shinobi system is the weapon, the cycle of hate is pulling the trigger. So Rin a victim of the cycle of hate.Quote:
Yet no date was given when Obito meets Yahiko. You assume they're teenagers by their looks in big bulky cloaks but you don't know when they met. That's your assumption, they could easily be in their 20's when they met Obito. There is no plothole, just the desire for Tobi not being Oibto.Quote:
This isn't a retcom. You assumed that the issue was resolved when in fact it wasn't. If there was a scene where Kakashi walks past the memorial stone and doesn't stop after his talk with his father, then you could say he moved on. But he hasn't. The latest chapters state it. There is no retcon because it didn't happen the way you envisioned it.Quote:
Last edited by Brill; July 16, 2013 at 09:12 AM.
minato does give me hope that this war arc can still be epic
i have a feeling he will dominate but still be defeated in the end, and as he is sealed he will give his kyuubi chaakra to naruto
No, he's not. How is that debatable when we were outright told it was 60 years? They were most likely in their 20's. And you seem to be forgetting that Izuna was a child when Madara and Hashirama were in their preteens. You keep placing him at the same age, when it's clear that he was younger. And since the village was founded right after his death, when Sarutobi was in his preteens and Onoki was a teenager, he wouldn't be all that much older then them, thus 70-80.
well madara probably has a few tricks up his sleeve
i bet he could force someone out of edo tensei and then kill them
not bring them back to.life obviously
but force them out of the summoners control or some haxx like that
If some one broeak out of Edo Tensei caster's control, will he be immortal ???
immortal but can be sealed
i was told what hashirama did and what madara did to gain freedom were different