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Thread: Ryodan's strength

  1. #31
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member The Invertroid's Avatar
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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    This is probably why Killua didn't actually fight anyone seriously after the Ant Arc, because most likely Togashi knows enough to realize how ridiculous his ability is and that there's absolutely any way he would lose to any human opponent.
    And do you think Togashi will never have Killua fight another human for the rest of the series? I admit you have plenty of sound arguments from a logical point of view, but the fact of the matter is Killua can't be as powerful as you say he is, because the manga has at least a few arcs left to go, and having all of his fights become forgone conclusions would be boring. Obviously this means Togashi will have to find some way to balance Godspeed when Killua uses it in future situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    The Spiders, with the exception of Hisoka (whose ability is not suitable for fighting but is bailed out by Togashi)
    This is a perfect example of what I'm trying to say. In the end, it doesn't matter who would theoretically dominate a fight using their ability. The plot is the great equalizer. Since we have yet to see Kurapika's final showdown with the Phantom Troupe, and since that plot will likely take place near the end of the manga, the Phantom Troupe must be very powerful figures in the HxH universe because weaklings don't appear as major villains in the last few arcs of any manga/anime series that I've heard of. Even one as atypical as HxH.

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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by The Invertroid View Post
    And do you think Togashi will never have Killua fight another human for the rest of the series? I admit you have plenty of sound arguments from a logical point of view, but the fact of the matter is Killua can't be as powerful as you say he is, because the manga has at least a few arcs left to go, and having all of his fights become forgone conclusions would be boring. Obviously this means Togashi will have to find some way to balance Godspeed when Killua uses it in future situations.

    This is a perfect example of what I'm trying to say. In the end, it doesn't matter who would theoretically dominate a fight using their ability. The plot is the great equalizer. Since we have yet to see Kurapika's final showdown with the Phantom Troupe, and since that plot will likely take place near the end of the manga, the Phantom Troupe must be very powerful figures in the HxH universe because weaklings don't appear as major villains in the last few arcs of any manga/anime series that I've heard of. Even one as atypical as HxH.
    Killua's more or less banished until Togashi can figure out what to do with him.

    Most likely you'll see Killua return to fight things that aren't human on the Dark Continent. As is right now no human character can withstand Killua just poking out their eyeballs and then slowly slaughtering them.

    The Spiders are very strong in terms of people who are not afraid to fight to the death, because people more powerful than they are generally afraid of fighting to the death. Biscuit chose to ran away from Palm even though the difference between the two is enormous. Zeno quickly gave up fighting Kuroro after learning there's no money for killing him. But in the grand scheme things, they're very weak. Netero can probably take out the entire organization by himself, and he said he's not even part of the top 5 anymore. The problem is that HXH is in a messy place because the good guys are overwhelmingly strong. I'm guessing you'd need something like most top Hunters wiped out by the events of the Dark Continent for the Spiders to become relevent. I assume originally Pariston was supposed to be responsible for something that severely undermines the power of the Hunter's Association, but now that he's left the Hunter's Association is once again the unopposed supreme power of the land (outside of national entities) and you can't have a meaningful conflict like that.

  3. #33
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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    The Spiders are not weak. The ship captain at the beginning said that even the most experienced Hunter can't touch them. That's the only proof we need, and there are many, many others (Uvogin defeating four Shadows Beasts by himself, Chrollo holding his own against Silva and Zeno, their strength being acknowledged by Razor, dispatching Zazan's squad without much trouble, and so on).

    And the good guys are certainly not overwhelmingly strong. Most Hunters are nothing but fodder. What about the Nostrade Bodyguards ? They were considered competent enough to get hired by a powerful Mafia family, yet they were nothing against the Phantom Troupe. What about all the Greed Island players ? They were all Hunters or at least Nen users, yet most of them couldn't even go back to reality, and even the "good" players, like Asta, were not even able to defeat those lame pirates, and then Genthry killed them with ease. By the beginning of the Chimera Ant Arc, Gon and Killua are still pretty much weaklings if we compare them to people like Morel, Knov or Knuckle, yet they are still stronger than most Hunters. Even some members of the Zodiac, Netero's sparring partners, are weaker than Illumi and Hisoka (we know we can trust Hisoka when it comes to power levels).
    And then there are all those Hunters who tried to catch Hisoka and Illumi during the Election Arc, and who got killed without any trouble (among them was a Single Star Hunter). Upon learning that, Teradein Neutral (a Double Star Hunter) says something like "Impossible ! Illumi must have at least ten strong people with him", to which Hisoka answers "Nope, just one". Which means that what is a "strong person" for an average Double Star Hunter is nothing compared to Hisoka. So no, Hunters in general are not strong.
    Last edited by Django; June 26, 2013 at 07:19 AM.

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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Django View Post
    The Spiders are not weak. The ship captain at the beginning said that even the most experienced Hunter can't touch them. That's the only proof we need, and there are many, many others (Uvogin defeating four Shadows Beasts by himself, Chrollo holding his own against Silva and Zeno, their strength being acknowledged by Razor, dispatching Zazan's squad without much trouble, and so on).


    no one is saying that the spiders are weak. but with the exception of kuroro, they arent that strong either. most stuff we know about the ryodan are experiences and perceptions of people significantly weaker than they are. and or when gon and killua were not even half of where they are now. kuroro is strong, but silva and zeno were there for a job you see. if they themselves were fighting say to avenge killua it would have been different as well. id say. Razor and the ryodan's strength if anything is a testament of how strong razor is. there were 5 of them, and none of them made a move. especially that we know how rude and imprudent they are, they didnt do anything to razor, when you see feitan one shotting pretty much anyone he comes across with. but there were plenty enough of them, yet they stayed still and listened to what he had to say. Zazan's batallion. come on. most of them are fodder, kullua could snap their necks in an instant like rammot i think if he wanted to.






    And the good guys are certainly not overwhelmingly strong. Most Hunters are nothing but fodder. What about the Nostrade Bodyguards ? They were considered competent enough to get hired by a powerful Mafia family, yet they were nothing against the Phantom Troupe. What about all the Greed Island players ? They were all Hunters or at least Nen users, yet most of them couldn't even go back to reality, and even the "good" players, like Asta, were not even able to defeat those lame pirates, and then Genthry killed them with ease. By the beginning of the Chimera Ant Arc, Gon and Killua are still pretty much weaklings if we compare them to people like Morel, Knov or Knuckle, yet they are still stronger than most Hunters. Even some members of the Zodiac, Netero's sparring partners, are weaker than Illumi and Hisoka (we know we can trust Hisoka when it comes to power levels).
    And then there are all those Hunters who tried to catch Hisoka and Illumi during the Election Arc, and who got killed without any trouble (among them was a Single Star Hunter). Upon learning that, Teradein Neutral (a Double Star Hunter) says something like "Impossible ! Illumi must have at least ten strong people with him", to which Hisoka answers "Nope, just one". Which means that what is a "strong person" for an average Double Star Hunter is nothing compared to Hisoka. So no, Hunters in general are not strong.


    hisoka is full of himself. someone like castro puts him in trouble. yes most of hunters are fodder too. we all know that, ponzu and pokkle were good examples of that. gaining stars as hunter isnt about strength. and netero's sparring partners except maybe for botobai the sheep and tiger and the cow.. most of them were for his mental and psyochological games. pariston for one, has gone on to have 3 stars without pressumablly letting anyone knowing how strong he is in a fight. Ging has gotten 2 stars for discovering ruins not bec he is feared to be strong.


    the spiders are strong but to put in them in certain categories like netero or zeno is wrong. the power levels dont follow a certain hierarchy. kuroro is plenty times more skilled and powerful than most of the spiders. same goes for netero and the hunters in general.

  5. #35
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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by ordoghaz View Post
    no one is saying that the spiders are weak. but with the exception of kuroro, they arent that strong either. most stuff we know about the ryodan are experiences and perceptions of people significantly weaker than they are. and or when gon and killua were not even half of where they are now. kuroro is strong, but silva and zeno were there for a job you see. if they themselves were fighting say to avenge killua it would have been different as well. id say. Razor and the ryodan's strength if anything is a testament of how strong razor is. there were 5 of them, and none of them made a move. especially that we know how rude and imprudent they are, they didnt do anything to razor, when you see feitan one shotting pretty much anyone he comes across with. but there were plenty enough of them, yet they stayed still and listened to what he had to say. Zazan's batallion. come on. most of them are fodder, kullua could snap their necks in an instant like rammot i think if he wanted to.
    Razor wasn't weaker than the Ryodan, yet he still said they were an impressive bunch. And the fact Silva and Zeno were fighting for a job doesn't change anything, Zeno was still willing to sacrifice himself to kill Chrollo, so they were obviously fighting at 100% (whereas Chrollo wasn't). And of course none of the Spiders made a move against Razor, you don't just rush against someone as powerful as Razor no matter how many guys you have with you, especially if you don't know what his abilities are. It doesn't mean they were afraid of him, or that they would have lost in a fight with him (they would have won, it was 5vs1) but they still had to be careful. And yes, Zazan's squad were fodder. Did the Ryodan have any difficulty dealing with them ? The only ones who were struggling were Shizuku (the weakest of them) and Feitan (who was fighting against a Squadron Leader, and was not even giving his best until the end). None of them seemed to consider it a very serious situation, they were joking around and casually commenting Feitan's fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by ordoghaz View Post
    hisoka is full of himself. someone like castro puts him in trouble. yes most of hunters are fodder too. we all know that, ponzu and pokkle were good examples of that. gaining stars as hunter isnt about strength. and netero's sparring partners except maybe for botobai the sheep and tiger and the cow.. most of them were for his mental and psyochological games. pariston for one, has gone on to have 3 tars without pressumablly letting anyone knowing how strong he is in a fight. Ging has gotten 2 stars for discovering ruins not bec he is feared to be strong.
    When you say "someone like Kastro puts him in trouble" you seem to imply Kastro was a weakling. He was not. He was able to create a perfect double of himself using Conjuration (a category he can only master at 60% at most) AND control it perfectly using Manipulation (again, a category he can master at 60% at most) AND use extremely powerful Enhancement attacks. Hisoka sure is full of himself, but he has every reason to be. As for the Zodiacs, they wouldn't be Netero's sparring partners unless they were some of the very best fighters the organization has, we know Netero likes fighting strong people. If Hisoka is stronger than some of them (and we know we can trust Hisoka about power levels) then that means he is truly a monster.

    Quote Originally Posted by ordoghaz View Post
    the spiders are strong but to put in them in certain categories like netero or zeno is wrong. the power levels dont follow a certain hierarchy. kuroro is plenty times more skilled and powerful than most of the spiders. same goes for netero and the hunters in general.
    Of course the Spiders are not at the level of Netero, being weaker than him is pretty much a given for everyone. And they're surely weaker than Zeno, too, but they're still extremely strong.

  6. #36
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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by ordoghaz View Post
    hisoka is full of himself. someone like castro puts him in trouble. yes most of hunters are fodder too. we all know that, ponzu and pokkle were good examples of that. gaining stars as hunter isnt about strength. and netero's sparring partners except maybe for botobai the sheep and tiger and the cow.. most of them were for his mental and psyochological games. pariston for one, has gone on to have 3 stars without pressumablly letting anyone knowing how strong he is in a fight. Ging has gotten 2 stars for discovering ruins not bec he is feared to be strong.


    the spiders are strong but to put in them in certain categories like netero or zeno is wrong. the power levels dont follow a certain hierarchy. kuroro is plenty times more skilled and powerful than most of the spiders. same goes for netero and the hunters in general.
    In the case of Spiders, Kuroro is not exceptionally strong compared to rest. His physical strength is strictly in the middle of the arm wrestling chart, though given his base type (worst at physical strength) that means he's considerably above his class. Just as Shizuku and Pakunoda are considered more valuable than the typical fighting member of the Spider due to their special abilty, Kuroro is special not for his strength but for his exceptional leadership. If you look at the battle against Zanza, there's nothing stopping half of the Spiders from getting wiped out given half of their opponent simply stood there and watched the Spiders charge up their special move in the typical Shonen fashion, instead of just immediately attacking like they ought to in HXH. Further, there's no reason to take that risk as the Spiders are obviously capable of working together, but without Kuroro there is no one with the authority to say 'no more stupid 1on1s'. In the fight against Zanza, Phinx basically says if one guys dies the next guy will fight Zanza 1on1 and if that guy dies then the next guy steps up and so on. If Zanza was actually not completely stupid and just stood still and died against Feitan, she could've easily killed several Spiders one a time and possibly convert a few to her pets. And yet this is completely stupid since as a team there's no way the Spiders would lose to Zanza. If Kuroro was there, there was no way they'd have fought Zanza like that, and the only reason it worked was due to plot necessity. There's really no compelling reason to believe Feitan was going to be able to beat Zanza 1on1 at all, nor is that required as there are multiple Spiders present at the final fight.

    In fact one of the real irony of the story is that Kuroro thinks of himself as expendable even though he is most definitely not, as we see the Spiders will fall apart without his leadership, which means he severely overestimates the leadership ability of everyone else. Thus far only Franklin appears even remotely capable of understanding the big picture.

    I think the Election Arc really made the Hunter's Association look like a joke as you basically have Hunters dying in the middle of their headquarter without anyone doing anything about it. Perhaps the point is that the Hunters have gotten fat during decades of reign as the world's supreme power that its members forgot what it means to actually fight, except at the Election Arc we're immediately told that the Zodiac is now assigned to capture Beyond Netero, who has plenty of powerful followers and is backed by a major nation. So if the point is that Hunters have become grown fat and useless then it's going to be really hilarious to see a bunch of incompetents try to take on someone who is likely the strongest human in HXH (Netero is his prime is the strongest human in HXH, and Beyond sure looks like he's in his prime) with extremely powerful supporters and the resources of a major nation.

    Pariston said in his speech that ultimately, a Hunter needs to be strong, and there's no reason to doubt the validity of that statement. It's almost certain that he's very strong in some way, even though it's possible he's not actually good at fighting. If Hunters aren't strong, how do they remain as the supreme organization of the world and counted on as defenders against events that can wipe out humanity? Now one of the common themes is that Hunters usually do not have exceptional fighting geared abilities as the result of their unchallenged supremacy. That is, when you've no one to fight there's no reason to develop abilities geared toward defeating your opponent. Biscuit is the best example of this, though even someone like Morel fits. As strong and resourceful as Morel is, his ability certainly isn't suited for combat. It seems like his ability is developed so that he can always have a smoke boat to travel around in his preferred domain (the sea). So the Hunters fighting ability are indeed somewhat weakened by years if not decades of unchallenged physical supremacy to the point that most of their members never developed abilities suitable for fighting. But then, this unchallenged supremacy didn't just get dropped on them from a pedestal. Obviously the Hunters, as an organization, must have earned this status by fighting at some point, and I don't think the point is that Netero was the one doing all the fighting while the rest of the Hunters grew fat.

    Actually, Novu is a pretty good example of how Hunters are both extremely powerful and not at the same time. His ability is absolutely insane. It's kind of like Hisoka's bubble gum (he can seems capable of shaping it however he sees fit) except whatever he touches is just flat out gone for good, and of course he can teleport. His ability looks pretty much like instant kill against any human level opponents if it connects. Since Netero handpicked him as one of his support, we can easily assume his overall stats is incredibly high. Yet Novu is also very mentally fragile. He totally freaked out when he saw that the Ants are really much stronger than him to the point he just ran away. That said, would you really want to challenge a guy whose special move can basically instant kill you with no possibility defending against it? And we can be pretty sure Novu wouldn't be intimidated by another human character (no human can possibly possess the level of raw aura the Royals have). Even if you suspect Novu have some kind of mental block, if you're a bad guy there's really no reason for you to mess with one of the top Hunters whose ability is instant kill even if you think you have some kind of mental edge over him because the risk is just too great.

    ---------- Post added at 11:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

    I notice people way overestimate Kuroro's ability based on the fight against Zeno and Silva. First off, Silva is definitely stronger than Zeno, as it'd make no sense to sacrifice the stronger guy to get the mission done. If you look at the fighting style Zeno was obviously the grunt doing all the fighting while Silva sits back waiting for the opportunity to make the kill. And even then Zeno said there was no way he'd lose in a fight that is not to the death against Kuroro. He said the result would be different in a fight to the death because he doesn't know what abilities Kuroro may have, so of course he can't say 'no way I'll lose' being the professional he is. This is why Kuroro didn't go all out either because he knows he's not going to be able to kill either of them anyway.

    Now why was Zeno sacrificed to defeat Kuroro? Because the reputation of the family was on the line. It's clear at the start of this mission both Silva and Ilumi knew that a different family member is taking on a competing contract. Otherwise it'd make no sense for Silva to just stop his attack the moment his pager rang as that'd be downright crazy. They obviously had an agreement that if they called each other that means the other mission is off because the guy who was going to pay for the other mission is dead. Now, the reputation of their family is hugely important. Zeno and Silva can't just take it easy and slow because if anyone found out about this, they'd say that Zeno and Silva chickened out of their contract by pretending to put on a show to avoid fighting Kuroro. This is why despite Silva always preaching about waiting for the best opportunity to kill, he was getting worried there. Not because he was losing his patience but because he knows about the competing contract from Ilumi. And since they have no time to figure out a safe plan to defeat Kuroro, that's why Zeno had to risk his life. If they were not operating under such a tight time constrain, they'd have plenty of time to figure out a safe way to kill Kuroro. In fact, why do you think Kuroro just happened to hire Ilumi? He doesn't have any special grudge against the Mafia, nor are they someone he'd require special assistance to defeat. He did that because he was short on time as he knows killing the guy who hired the Zs is the only way to get the Zs off your back, and he didn't have time to track down the Mafia leaders himself and he knows he needs to get the Zs off his back, fast.

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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    God. How can you write so much. With all the same arguments over and over again.

    Anyways, obviously I didn't mean physical strength for kuroro. And he is way stronger and dangerous probably is the better word, compares with the other ryodans.

    It will be close between silva and kuroro I believe. The former failed already before.

    Leadership wise. I don't know. It's more of he is the only one they respect and has an absolute superiority over the others minus physical strength
    Maybe.

  8. #38
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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Silva never failed to kill Kuroro. He had a contract to kill a particular member of the Spiders but it was definitely not Kuroro or the whole thing about his family's reputation would be a joke if the current head of the family failed an assassination attempt. The only loophole when it comes to the Zs is that you can kill whoever contracted them and then they'll quit because the Zs don't work for free. The whole notion Kuroro can fight off either of them is ridiculous or he would not have called Ilumi to get Silva/Zeno off his back via the loophole.

    The most powerful characters in HXH tend to be very humble. The Zs are especially conservative. As Zeno explained, his kills because it's his job, not because he enjoys it. He doens't want to work for free or die pointlessly. Someone like Zeno or Silva will always think extremely highly of their opponent because outside of family reputation, their most important goal is still survival. I keep on see people mistaken guys who are fearless as if they're stronger. As Killua puts it, just because you've 1% chance of winning doesn't mean these are the kind of odds you want. Now similar to most Shonen usually 1% is more than enough odds for you to risk your life on, which is why the fearless guys usually look like they're right, but that's just plot immunity backing them up. In theory 99 out of 100 times you're supposed to just die horribly if you challenge someone you only have 1% chance of winning. Just because the odds never work out that way due to plot immunity doesn't make the act of fighting a 1% chance to win battle wise. That is why Kuroro was only stalling for time the entire time because he knew about the loophole and he also knew how stupid it'd be to actually fight Silva and Zeno for real, as the chance of him winning is extremely slim. He held back because there's really no point even if he was able to kill say Zeno if that results him getting killed by Silva. Going on the offense only decreases the time he can stall, and while Kuroro is not afraid of death, trading his life for Zeno does absolutely nothing positive for the Spiders so there's no point for him to risk his life either.

  9. #39
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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Silva and Zeno were also being cautious because Silva knew that Kuroro had a stealing ability, but they weren't sure of how it worked. They wanted to keep the pressure on and finish it quickly so he couldn't activate the conditions, hence the sacrifice strategy. Kuroro was partially holding back because he was hoping for the chance to steal in addition to stalling for time.

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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonsagara View Post
    Silva and Zeno were also being cautious because Silva knew that Kuroro had a stealing ability, but they weren't sure of how it worked. They wanted to keep the pressure on and finish it quickly so he couldn't activate the conditions, hence the sacrifice strategy. Kuroro was partially holding back because he was hoping for the chance to steal in addition to stalling for time.
    Let's say Kuroro activated his awesome killing ability and killed Zeno. Since Silva was on the side watching the whole time, presumably Silva takes this opportunity and then kill him since it's a universal theme that strong offensive powers invariably leaves you vulnerable. So Kuroro died while taking Zeno with him. But what's the point? He knows Silva and Zeno are just professionals doing a job, so it's not like these guys have any fundamental ideology conflict with him. Kuroro is not afraid of dying, but how does killing Zeno or even Silva gains anything for the Spiders? Kuroro is willing to sacrifice himself to defeat Kurapika, because he knows there's no way they can coexist. There's no such motivation here.

    Silva and Zeno weren't afraid of Kuroro's stealing ability because they know it'd be too hard to activate an ability so powerful as stealing. What they're afraid of is whatever abilities Kuroro may have already stolen. There's obviously no way they can plan for whatever ability Kuroro may actually have, and since they're professionals they decided sacrificing one guy (Zeno) was the surest way to win. They can't really continue fighting safe because they know they're competing against Ilumi, and more Spiders might arrive to help anyway. If they try to wear Kuroro down with just basic moves it'd take hours.

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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    I think there are only four conclusions that could be drawn from the Chrollo v Zeno/Silva fight. Since the only way to defeat Chrollo was to sacrifice Zeno, it follows that:

    1.) Chrollo is close to being equal to Zeno and Silva in overall fighting prowess.
    2.) Chrollo is not close to being equal to Zeno and/or Silva but fighting defensively in HxH is far easier than fighting offensively i.e. by not exposing yourself, you can hold off for a long period of time against superior opponents.
    3.) It was a bluff to prevent Chrollo from being too aggressive in his counterattacks.
    4.) Togashi fucked up.

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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by mousiehamster View Post
    I think there are only four conclusions that could be drawn from the Chrollo v Zeno/Silva fight. Since the only way to defeat Chrollo was to sacrifice Zeno, it follows that:

    1.) Chrollo is close to being equal to Zeno and Silva in overall fighting prowess.
    2.) Chrollo is not close to being equal to Zeno and/or Silva but fighting defensively in HxH is far easier than fighting offensively i.e. by not exposing yourself, you can hold off for a long period of time against superior opponents.
    3.) It was a bluff to prevent Chrollo from being too aggressive in his counterattacks.
    4.) Togashi fucked up.
    Of course it's easy to fight defensively in HXH. Otherwise why would you need to even train yourself to have Ken that lasts 3 hours? Even someone like Gon, who is said to be terribly inefficient, can last about 1/10 the time in actual combat compared to training, so he'd have enough aura to last 18 minutes defensively. Obviously anyone who is actually well trained can get close to their practice time in actual combat. Biscuit said that two guys of comparable strength both using just Ken is pretty much a guaranteed stalemate. If you're the stronger guy you have no reason to use your special moves first because you'll eventually wear the other guy down so no need to expose yourself. But even if you're the weaker guy, using your special move is risky and you usually want to hope for a better opportunity. It certainly isn't smart for the weaker guy to simply use his special move immediately.

    So if people actually fought the way they're supposed to, fighting in HXH would be very boring as you'd just have people use Ken and beat on each other for 2 hours until the loser finally makes a move. Pretty much all fights in HXH have just the 'two guys use Ken and beat on each other for a long time' completely cut out since nobody would possibly be interested in that stuff. In light of the fact that Ilumi has a competing contract and other Spiders are presumably scattered in the city, taking an hour or two to slowly chip down Kuroro's health safely is simply not an option for Silva and Zeno.

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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Of course it's easy to fight defensively in HXH. Otherwise why would you need to even train yourself to have Ken that lasts 3 hours? Even someone like Gon, who is said to be terribly inefficient, can last about 1/10 the time in actual combat compared to training, so he'd have enough aura to last 18 minutes defensively. Obviously anyone who is actually well trained can get close to their practice time in actual combat. Biscuit said that two guys of comparable strength both using just Ken is pretty much a guaranteed stalemate. If you're the stronger guy you have no reason to use your special moves first because you'll eventually wear the other guy down so no need to expose yourself. But even if you're the weaker guy, using your special move is risky and you usually want to hope for a better opportunity. It certainly isn't smart for the weaker guy to simply use his special move immediately.
    Keeping up your Ken is nice and all but surely that would be a bad idea against two master assassins, one of which is reinforcement while you yourself is conjuration-specialization? Thing is Chrollo dodged attacks from both guys so aura wasn't even in the equation; and he tanked a punch from Silva as well as a nen blast from Zeno (from the back!). So this defensive / evasive fighting style somehow allowed him to stave off the Zs (for a while anyway).

    Quote Quote:
    So if people actually fought the way they're supposed to, fighting in HXH would be very boring as you'd just have people use Ken and beat on each other for 2 hours until the loser finally makes a move. Pretty much all fights in HXH have just the 'two guys use Ken and beat on each other for a long time' completely cut out since nobody would possibly be interested in that stuff. In light of the fact that Ilumi has a competing contract and other Spiders are presumably scattered in the city, taking an hour or two to slowly chip down Kuroro's health safely is simply not an option for Silva and Zeno.
    Is it correct to say that they are competing contracts? They are competing against each other's time not because of any inherent condition in the contract itself but because the completion of one contract would prevent the receipt of payment of another. So if these guys are just fulfilling mutually exclusive contracts as a matter of principle, then they may just be performing them without taking into account the obviating factor (completion of one = breach of the other). This is in contrast to a true competing contract where the Z's were simultaneously hired to protect and assassinate the same target, they would take each other's conduct into account. Or maybe i'm just thinking too much.

  14. #44
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by mousiehamster View Post
    Keeping up your Ken is nice and all but surely that would be a bad idea against two master assassins, one of which is reinforcement while you yourself is conjuration-specialization? Thing is Chrollo dodged attacks from both guys so aura wasn't even in the equation; and he tanked a punch from Silva as well as a nen blast from Zeno (from the back!). So this defensive / evasive fighting style somehow allowed him to stave off the Zs (for a while anyway).



    Is it correct to say that they are competing contracts? They are competing against each other's time not because of any inherent condition in the contract itself but because the completion of one contract would prevent the receipt of payment of another. So if these guys are just fulfilling mutually exclusive contracts as a matter of principle, then they may just be performing them without taking into account the obviating factor (completion of one = breach of the other). This is in contrast to a true competing contract where the Z's were simultaneously hired to protect and assassinate the same target, they would take each other's conduct into account. Or maybe i'm just thinking too much.
    Ken guards everywhere, so why wouldn't you use it if you're stalling for time? The amount of time you can use Ken is basically an upper bound of how long you can fight defensively in a fight since once Ken runs out you're obviously not going to be able to defend anymore meaningfully. As we can see in the later chapters that is a very long time. Another way to think about it is that Knuckles needs around 4 minutes for Gon to go bankrupt. If fights normally end in 4 minutes then there's really no point to have this ability (he certainly can avoid attacks for 4 minutes). I mean, the whole point of Ken is that it's the best defense against unexpected attacks because it guards everywhere, so getting hit from behind generally implies you have Ken up, or you'd likely be knocked out from that blow.

    I'd think Zeno and Silva have some pride in that they don't want to just take their time and say, "Oops took too long guess we're going home". You can also argue that since other Spiders are around, perhaps taking a long time would've made things even more dangerous since any additional Spider arriving could've significantly altered the outcome. Although we often see Zeno and Silva whining about how this job doesn't pay enough, you can be pretty sure they always do whatever it takes to finish the job even if they're not paid enough (the only exception is if they're being paid nothing because the guy who hired them is dead). If they didn't do that, their family wouldn't be nearly as feared as they are right now.

  15. #45
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Re: Ryodan's strength

    Then that mean Kuroro know he have no chance of winning vs those 2, so he hired their family to killed off the one who hired those 2, hmmm good thinking

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