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I have deleted a couple of posts because they weren't adding to the ongoing discussion. Please try not to get into personal battles while discussing.
Byakuya was not beaten because he was weak, but because the fear ability was one that would have affected any of the captains on the same level, because everyone has something that triggers that primal fear that As Nodt was talking about. Also, Byakuya became vulnerable to As Nodt for the same reason that Yama became vulnerable to Bach. Yama created a connection with his subordinate and cared about him so much that it interfered with his ability to focus and made him react emotionally to Chojiro's death, helping to set him up for his loss. Bach argued that this was why Yama lost.
Back to Byakuya, he was protecting his subordinate, Renji, whom he has mentored and had become very close to, so he continually tells Renji to stay back, and even apologizes to him, along with Rukia when he fails to protect him. Renji being there added nothing to the fight. He couldn't hit As Nodt at all and only acted as a distraction for Byakuya. The other captains who lost bankai at least had VC's who assisted them in the battle. And their bankais were not as powerful as Byakuya's. Actually, Soi Fon's wasn't even really usable as it's huge and can only be used once. So, Byakuya was the only one of the four protecting a subordinate who couldn't help in the battle, and that he was particularly close to.
Then, there is Rukia. Before the thorns pierced Byakuya and triggered his emotional response to the image of Rukia, Byakuya was able to fight effectively in shikai. It wasn't weakness that made him stop being able to hit As Nodt. It was the loss of stability in his thinking/mind when exposed to his worst fear. So, Byakuya didn't lose because his abilities weren't good enough, but because his connections to his loved ones were so strong and the thought of not being able to protect them was so devastating. Byakuya always seems to get opponents who attack the mind as well as the body. Zommari tried to use Rukia to defeat Byakuya, resulting in him risking his own body to protect her. Tsukishima entered his mind and tried to undo him by making himself able to counter anything Byakuya had trained in. Even when he fought Ichigo, there was a mental element, because he was fighting a battle his heart wasn't in. He didn't want Rukia to die, but only accepted the idea of her execution because he felt he had to obey the laws of Soul Society. So, beating Byakuya was not so much a comment on Byakuya's strength, but showing how great strength can be undone/derailed by threats to loved ones. That same factor was played out in Yama's battle with Bach. Kubo parallels the Yama/Chojiro relationship with the younger Byakuya/Renji relationship and both lost their battles because they cared too much, and became too emotionally involved. Yama's emotions blinded him so he didn't catch that he wasn't really fighting Bach, and Byakuya's connection to/protection of Renji and Rukia caused him to fight less effectively.
When you consider that, it becomes clear that all of the captains have someone whom they would protect like that. Hitsugaya would die to protect Momo. Soi Fon would die for Yoruichi. Shunsui takes a pretty serious hit when Yama dies, because he is distracted. All of the captains have something that would be triggered by As Nodt's fear response. That part of what makes them 'good' characters and not monsters like Bach and his band of merry murderers. As Nodt's power does not expose weaknesses in ability, but takes advantage of the good characters' connections with other people. So, to lose to him does not mean one did not have the power to defeat him. It is undone by threatening what the person protects most/cares about most. Not one of the other SR's the captain's initially faced, with the exception of Bach, used an ability on that level. The roar guy and the question SR's don't come close to that, which is why they were easily trounced by Kenpachi.
You also use in your arguments that Byakuya losing the battle to As Nodt shows his weakness. Everyone in Bleach loses battles. From Ichigo, the protagonist on down. That he lost is not a reflection on his ability as much as the level of opponent he faced. As Nodt has a really effective ability that would be extremely difficult for any captain to fight. Also, while the other captains did not lose, none of them were struck with a power equal to Senbonzakura in bankai. They just weren't.
Last edited by Firebird0ne; August 23, 2013 at 05:01 AM.
The majority of the other Captains faced off against Quincies with unique abilities and they were ok. Why do we just make excuses for Byakuya? Especially when it's a consistant theme.
Struggled against 7th Espada: Other Captains fought more powerful Espada without using their full power.
Struggled against Tsukashima: Again, other Captains fought Fullbringers and came out unscathed.
Lost to As nodt: Other Captains fought Quincy, some Captains killed Quincy, Byakuya was beaten by Quincy. All other Captains came out ok, except Byakuya. Kenpachi and Yama were also defeated but they actually killed Quincy. This can not be said for Byakuya.
So with this being said are we going to make excuses for Byakuya in every fight he has had? or accept that this maybe a recurring theme within Byakuya's fights and accept that Byakuya is one of the weaker fighters out of the Gotei 13 Captains.
Last edited by vanyar; August 23, 2013 at 05:42 AM.
You see, Zommari was hax and the fastest Espada, Tsukushima had hax ability that boosted every damn thing (in Byakuya's case it gave him ONLY knowledge, no real boost, Byakuya still had intent to kill), and As Nodt's ability could kill ANY captain after ONE hit. Trust me Vanyar, I read that countless times. Byakuya is Mr. Strongest and Perfect, other captains are nothing, they were just lucky to win in Shikai against Stark or something. Byakuya never loses and is flawless. He lost? Well, it wasn't his fault, opponent was clearly on Juha level with haxxor ability![/sarcasm]
I don't think it was fear that made byakuya loose. When nodt used his ability against other shinigami they ended up panicking and running away in a demented state. Byakuya never really got to such a point, he held his ground and went for the kill at every chance he had. Fear without a doubt had an effect on him but I doubt the effect would have been so overwhelming it would have actually stopped him from holding his ground or even winning. Byakuya was up against his own bankai with absolutely nothing in his arsenal that could possibly match that. Just to point out how much of a difference bankai makes look at the battle between ichigo and byakuya. Bankai was the difference between being even with shikai ichigo and fodderizing him. As long as captains don't have an alternative to bankai or have way to deal with the medal there is no way for them to win the war. Even if a few captains are capable of kicking ass without bankai (so far unohana and kenpachi with komamura and soifon apparently heading that way) the medals still neutralize the vast majority of the power the gotei 13 has.
Saying that he went against his Bankai and still lost is just as bad tbh, he should know the ins and out of his own power. His over reliance of it is also what led to his defeat.
There are other captains who had theyre Bankais stolen and they were relatively unharmed. Using As Nodts ability as an excuse as to why Byakuya lost is very desperate.
On the Kenpachi part, the fake Juha managed to keep Yamaji, In Bankai occupied long enough for the real one to show up, he was not weak.
Last edited by jaymizzo; August 23, 2013 at 08:21 PM.
Last edited by Duniak; August 23, 2013 at 10:02 PM.
Do you really believe any of those things would have made a difference? Back in the day we saw byakuya's bankai being easily able to outmaneuver ichigo and block a GT. For a kido to even reach nodt at that point it would have had to be at least massively stronger than a GT from ichigo at that point. The other captains were at large lucky that the quincy did not take the fight to the volstandig level or used the stolen bankais. Perhaps the case could even be made that the only reason hitsugaya made it was because yamamoto's bankai prevented that quincy from using hyorinmaru altogether.
Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of ones powers would IMO stop you from getting embarrassed by your own powers.
The SR are strong on theyre own as it is, even without stealing Bankai, yet there were captains fighting these same opponents who have unique abilities and still managed to live with just theyre sealed swords.
We know the Bankai of a very few captains, Duniak made the list and as you can see only two captains heavily rely on their Bankai.
*Looks at his opponent*
Byakuya: I'm a captain of 6th Squad, Byakuya Kuchiki. As an Arrancar working for traitor Aizen Sousuke you stepped on my and G13's pride. SENBONZAKURA KAGEYOSHI.
No beating around the bush.
Mayuri won against Szayel with something else than his Bankai. Using it is one thing, depending on it is the other.
And I don't really remember Byakuya blocking Getsuga with Senbonzakura. If we're talking about Ichigo in Shikai he was like "WTF IS THAT?! SENBONZAKURA KAGEYOSHI", and if we're talking about Bankai, only Hollow Ichigo used it and Byakuya couldn't do anything.
First of all, your point about mayuri and grants is plain absurd. Even if it wasn't, it still does not hold up. For starters, byakuya had a relatively comfortable victory against zomari. And the same point can be made about how byakuya actually won the fight. The fight with zomari was not decided by bankai, it was decided by the danku and the eventual sword slash that killed zomari. Its the exact same situation as with mayuri. Use bankai to deal damage, finish the enemy with something other than bankai.
When byakuya first went bankai ichigo fought with only shikai for some time. During this time ichigo got easily overpowered and he did fire a GT which was easily blocked by byakuya. Which is why I don't see how any kido could potentially reach nodt once he was using bankai, even today it wouldn't make sense for a simple kido to exceed ichigo's GT from back then.
---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------
True, other captains survived but the circumstances of their battles were different. To begin with none of them used the bankais they stole. Only the guy hitsugaya fought did and that was solved when yamamoto went bankai. As for the rest of the stern riter they did not even use volstandig. Its worth noting that when that guy shunsui fought did use volstandig shunsui took a hit to the eye. The only way for the other fights to have been comparable to what happened with byakuya would be that those guys had used volstandig or the stolen bankai. Yet they did not, the rest of the stern riter kept the fights at shikai level so to speak. Or are you honestly implying any of the captains would have survived a fight against a bunch of volstandig or bankai without at least a bankai of their own? In the end the notion that a captain does not "rely" on his bankai cannot possibly hold. Bankai is the strongest power they have. Those that do not "rely" on it would simply have something to replace it altogether which is pretty much a exceptional situation (only soifon or yoruichi so far have something like that and komamura seems to be on his way to get something). The rest would pretty much use bankai if a situation gets dicey enough. The only reason a bunch of people have not yet used their bankai is because they literally couldn't due to the medals or they were not fighting alone. Duniak did say why some captains do not rely on their bankai but I also said why I disagreed with that. Seriously, he is telling us fighters who have used their bankais in every fight they have been don't rely on it....
Regardless of what Tsukishima did, Byakuya still had every intention to kill him. Its not like Byakuya was holding back nor could Tsukishima tell the future. The point is that He knew the ins and outs of Byakuyas Bankai which made it easy to fight and counter him.
Thats what im getting at, Byakuya should have been able to counter his own Bankai if he truly knew how to. If Byakuya is unable to get past his Bankais weakness and manage to get past Blut or atleast trouble Nodt enough to give himself an oppening, it only speaks to his weakness.
Hitsugaya fought the guy for the same duration Byakuya did and the guy was using his Bankai up until that point. Yet he managed to do well. Byakuya was massacred before Yamaji released his Bankai and in that time Hitsugaya was still standing against his own Bankai. Its not exactly different situations.Quote:
No other SR aside from the Old guy used Volstandig or atleast such an ability. Well unless what As Nodt used was indeed Volstandig.Quote:
What makes you think they kept the fights at Shikai level? They were ordered to exterminate the Shinigami, When they entered SS they slaughtered people with no mercy. Its not a convincing argument to state that people who obey Juha to such an extent would go against his orders to kill everyone.Quote:
I can see people like Kyouraku, Unohana, Ukitake and Shinji would have survived fighting against theyre own powers. They do not at all rely on theyre Bankais or Shikai as heavily as other captains do and they have faced strong opponents with a fraction of theyre powers. Its not a stretch to think they would fair much better than Byakuya. And thats only speaking about captains.Quote:
How so? Yes Bankai is the strongest power they have true, but not relying on it speaks more to your strengths than it does to your weakness. Infact rarely using your full power even against strong oppoenents is a testament of ones strength.Quote:
There is using it as a last resort - Which makes much more sense and i believe is the common usage of it and there is just spamming it. Byakuya does the latter.
All of them have fought tough opponents and Bankai was the last thing in theyre mind. Hell Soi fon who was having a lot of trouble did not even want to use her Bankai. Kyouraku was going to use his Bankai but in the end managed to get the job done in Shikai.Quote:
That may be true, but even before they knew what the Medallions actually did, most of them werent even thinking about Bankai. Using Bankai means that you acknowledge your enemies strength and you believe it is needed inorder to win the fight, using it straight off the bat without any information on the opponents strength IMO is reliance.Quote:
And even before the SR came into the picture, we were told Bankai is the last resort of a captain, yet Byakuya uses it in every fight he has been in. Thats not exactly last resort now is it?
Byakuya only used bankai when the moment a-rouse, not out of necessity. The only real fight he used it for an extended period of time was against Ichigo. Against Renji he used it to show the difference between their power, symbolically. His match against Zommari, he used it out of anger, because Zommari "Pointed his blade at Rukia".Before that Byakuya was still using a sealed blade kind of not taking the match as seriously as he should, despite even being controlled by Amor. The following match vs Yammy was off-screen(He very much used it for an extended period of time here), but Yammy was the strongest, so I guess it was required. Tsukishima couldn't even approach Byakuya in sealed/shikai state, how is it that bankai was needed here? Oh that's right his blade got broken. Byakuya is also one of the most versatile fighters in the series, so his zanpakutou actually compliments his fighting style more so than others.
---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 PM ----------
Sorry for the wait, Duniak.
Shunsui's match was one of the very few matches we've seen. Impressive but this says nothing of how others compare in a similar situation.Quote:
"Should be roughly at the same level". But they are not, at the very least some of them are. Nothing indicated that fear is a weak ability either. The bolded can be neither argued or supported by the manga. We do have one of the mentally toughest captains enduring it though. You keep ignoring context within the story too, Kubo has portrayed Byakuya this way.Quote:
No. At the very beginning of their Senkei match, I showed panels of Byakuya keeping up with Ichigo. Before his speed started to decrease. Byakuya was keeping pace just fine and eventually overwhelmed him in a sword fight. Ichigo's speed fell because of inexperience and Byakuya's own combat skills.Quote:
The hollow the Visoreds faced could have been stronger purely due to Ichigo's growth in powers comparably to the incarnation Byakuya fought. But again, neither Ichigo or Hichigo had control over that form;It was just a container filled with power driven by Ichigo's inner battle. You're essentially saying Hollow Ichigo has two consciousness and had knowledge of what was going on, on the outside world.Quote:
But it isn't. I gave you evidence as to why too. he cares for Ichigo, only. Ichigo dies so does a part of his spirit(Zanpakutou). It was the dominant half of his powers during that time.All the focus was put on him gaining control and mastering that portion of his power. This says nothing of how Ichigo is as a fighter. Hollow powers just augmented his other physical ability. Agreed here.Quote:
The situations cannot be compared directly.Quote:
Yes you did.Quote:
Nah, I just didn't have the time to. If it's a discussion about Byakuya of course not. One of the most talked about characters.Quote:
Last edited by Crystal Black; August 24, 2013 at 04:41 PM.