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Thread: How strong is Byakuya?

  1. #166
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    First of all, your point about mayuri and grants is plain absurd. Even if it wasn't, it still does not hold up. For starters, byakuya had a relatively comfortable victory against zomari. And the same point can be made about how byakuya actually won the fight. The fight with zomari was not decided by bankai, it was decided by the danku and the eventual sword slash that killed zomari. Its the exact same situation as with mayuri. Use bankai to deal damage, finish the enemy with something other than bankai.

    When byakuya first went bankai ichigo fought with only shikai for some time. During this time ichigo got easily overpowered and he did fire a GT which was easily blocked by byakuya. Which is why I don't see how any kido could potentially reach nodt once he was using bankai, even today it wouldn't make sense for a simple kido to exceed ichigo's GT from back then.
    And then Szayel was reborn and Mayuri's Bankai didn't do anything. Szayel even made Mayuri's bankai to attack him. After that, Szayel was perfectly fine, Zommari wasn't. In Mayuri's case they went back to simple 1v1, in Zommari's case he was half-dead and damaged, bleeding from everything he could. And Zommari even had relatively easy ability for Byakua to counter. Byakuya was a perfect match for him and he still had to fight at full power and cut his tendons.

    And I don't think Ichigo's GT in Shikai is even comparable to one in Bankai. Ichigo's GT couldn't scratch Kirge. And in Bankai he could use his GT just fine despite Kirge absorbing Allon. And I also don't think Ichigo's GT is all that strong. It surprised most people, that he grew that much, but Bankai GT is worlds above one in Shikai. And I'm pretty sure that Kido can have such penetrating strength as GT.

    And even if you really think Mayuri relies on his Bankai, you were the one who said "most" of captains rely on them. If you want to argue if ratio is 4:9 or 3:10 go ahead, but that doesn't change the fact, that 4 is not more than 9 and 3 not more than 10.

    ---------- Post added at 06:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Sorry for the wait, Duniak.
    Don't worry, I probably wouldn't be able to write proper response after last night so it's all good.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Oh so you think shunsui would've one shot an opponent of this level, when moments before he said something like this.
    Well, I think if SR didn't use ability he would have been dead. But when he uses his Grimaniel, which is most likely Vollstandig with name (thus the holy name), he gets speed even Kyoraku can't handle with ease. That's why they'd need Bankai. Despite that SR was heavily wounded already. Something that Byakuya never achieved, actually cutting his opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Shunsui's match was one of the very few matches we've seen. Impressive but this says nothing of how others compare in a similar situation
    It's enough to compare Byakuya's and Shunsui's skill in swordmanship and strength. Byakuya, who always fights with his blades, rarely using his sword, can't cut SR. Shunsui, who actually uses his sword like sword should be used can cut his opponent and can react to SR's attack, dodge his shot, kick his gut with his knee, almost cut him in half. And then make a deep wound in his stomach.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    "Should be roughly at the same level". But they are not, at the very least some of them are. Nothing indicated that fear is a weak ability either. The bolded can be neither argued or supported by the manga. We do have one of the mentally toughest captains enduring it though. You keep ignoring context within the story too, Kubo has portrayed Byakuya this way.
    Nothing suggests they're on different levels either. We know they're created artificially (their Quincy powers, not body/soul), so no reason to believe Juha has his favourites, Haschwald excluded and maybe Royd, he had his role so he got some more power. If some SRs were just stronger Juha could throw away others and power-up those with cool abilities instead of going for numbers.



    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    No. At the very beginning of their Senkei match, I showed panels of Byakuya keeping up with Ichigo. Before his speed started to decrease. Byakuya was keeping pace just fine and eventually overwhelmed him in a sword fight. Ichigo's speed fell because of inexperience and Byakuya's own combat skills.
    They explicitly said Ichigo is losing and his speed is decreasing because of strain of his Bankai, why even discuss it further? Amount of experience isn't connected to one's speed at all. Ichigo can speedblitz Byakuya at the beggining, than Byakuya is faster than him, Ichigo is panting like crazy. He was tired and his Bankai wore him off. Byakuya's combat skills can't make Ichigo magically slower.



    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    The hollow the Visoreds faced could have been stronger purely due to Ichigo's growth in powers comparably to the incarnation Byakuya fought. But again, neither Ichigo or Hichigo had control over that form;It was just a container filled with power driven by Ichigo's inner battle. You're essentially saying Hollow Ichigo has two consciousness and had knowledge of what was going on, on the outside world.
    Well, I don't really care about anything else than their strength to use it in comparison. Byakuya in Shikai can't handle Ichigo in Shikai, Vizards without Shikai/some with can handle Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo. That's all I care for. :P



    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    But it isn't. I gave you evidence as to why too. he cares for Ichigo, only. Ichigo dies so does a part of his spirit(Zanpakutou). It was the dominant half of his powers during that time.All the focus was put on him gaining control and mastering that portion of his power. This says nothing of how Ichigo is as a fighter. Hollow powers just augmented his other physical ability. Agreed here.
    The whole Shirosaki saying "this power will one day be mine", his talk about king and a horse and the fact, that Ichigo still had the same Bankai and Shirosaki sometimes talked to him from his inner body means, that Shirosaki wasn't core of his power. Ichigo was using it, while shooting Black Getsugas. But he was scared to his Hollow's power and depended on "Shinigami" powers. Grimmjow commented on it. If Ichigo used 3 more Getsugas against him, his Hollow side would prevail and become the "King".






    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    The situations cannot be compared directly.
    Well, not like fatigue of a former VC level fighter is anything strange and changes my point, that Vaizard CAPTAINS are stronger than Byakuya, right? Lisa never was a captain, she had right to be tired.

  2. #167
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Well, Byakuya cannot fight against his Bankai with a sealed form. Actually, no one can, unless you are super-fast like Ichigo and dodge all blades. There is no point in trying to make a sword fight, either. If Byakuya didn't lose his composure during fight, he wouldn't try to take on his Bankai. And since he lost it (let it be because of As Nodt's Fear power or because of his own state in the fight), there was no way he could figure about his Bankai. And As Nodt wasn't using his fighting techniques. He simply unleashed them over Byakuya. I don't recall any point in which he actually did anything else, so, even the safe zone concept would be nonexistent in the first place.

    Moving onto the other point in the hand, I wonder why going Bankai is considered a criteria in the ranking here. The captains who frequently go Bankai (Komamura, Hitsugaya, Byakuya) all keep the same fighting style while switching from Shikai to Bankai. So, there actually is no reason to hold it out against an enemy of certain caliber, since those are not really "trump cards". They basically give power up in the sense of magnitude, so, technically, the ability spam is quite understandable. I don't think the most of the unseen Bankai will end up that easily conceivable, maybe aside from Love's, who is a melee fighter like Komamura in some way.

  3. #168
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Well, Byakuya cannot fight against his Bankai with a sealed form. Actually, no one can, unless you are super-fast like Ichigo and dodge all blades. There is no point in trying to make a sword fight, either. If Byakuya didn't lose his composure during fight, he wouldn't try to take on his Bankai. And since he lost it (let it be because of As Nodt's Fear power or because of his own state in the fight), there was no way he could figure about his Bankai. And As Nodt wasn't using his fighting techniques. He simply unleashed them over Byakuya. I don't recall any point in which he actually did anything else, so, even the safe zone concept would be nonexistent in the first place.

    Moving onto the other point in the hand, I wonder why going Bankai is considered a criteria in the ranking here. The captains who frequently go Bankai (Komamura, Hitsugaya, Byakuya) all keep the same fighting style while switching from Shikai to Bankai. So, there actually is no reason to hold it out against an enemy of certain caliber, since those are not really "trump cards". They basically give power up in the sense of magnitude, so, technically, the ability spam is quite understandable. I don't think the most of the unseen Bankai will end up that easily conceivable, maybe aside from Love's, who is a melee fighter like Komamura in some way.
    Byakuya's Bankai wouldn't catch many captains IMO. Ichigo was slightly faster than him, but Ichigo himself wasn't godly in terms of speed. Yoruichi carrying him could outrun Byakuya with ease. And she was like 2x slower using the same strength to carry twice as much mass. (Assuming Ichigo is as heavy as Yoruichi, not likely :P). Soifon could keep up with Yoruichi's normal speed. Maybe she was even faster while they were not using Shunko. Stark could escape with Inoue with ease, despite Zaraki and Ichigo trying to get him. And he was immediately "gone", Ichigo couldn't even feel him anywhere near. And Shunsui could keep up with that speed without much problem. Ukitake is probably just as fast. Vaizards can handle that speed without much effort, even VCs (fight against Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo). Byakuya seems pretty slow to me. Love was actually faster than Stark when he got shaken up with Barragan's death, so they should be at the same level of speed.

    I also don't think Love is a simple melee fighter. His Tengumaru gives him pretty interesting abilities. Melee is something like Lisa or Hiyori. Love's Shikai can negate attacks that are enough to take down likes of Shunsui (Fellow users, don't start with him "Shunsui was just acting", I discussed it far too many times)

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...85-page-8.html

    All that WITHOUT using his Mask. Vaizards are just on different level. Given their experience and constant training it's a given they're stronger than current captains (seniors excluded, but I'm sure they could put up a fair fight)

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-17.html

    I don't think this attack is Tengumaru's ability, more like Kido used with Zanpakuto (thus the warning for Tengumaru? xd), but Love in Shikai is not just a simple melee fighter.

  4. #169
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Byakuya's Bankai wouldn't catch many captains IMO. Ichigo was slightly faster than him, but Ichigo himself wasn't godly in terms of speed. Yoruichi carrying him could outrun Byakuya with ease. And she was like 2x slower using the same strength to carry twice as much mass. (Assuming Ichigo is as heavy as Yoruichi, not likely :P). Soifon could keep up with Yoruichi's normal speed. Maybe she was even faster while they were not using Shunko. Stark could escape with Inoue with ease, despite Zaraki and Ichigo trying to get him. And he was immediately "gone", Ichigo couldn't even feel him anywhere near. And Shunsui could keep up with that speed without much problem. Ukitake is probably just as fast. Vaizards can handle that speed without much effort, even VCs (fight against Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo). Byakuya seems pretty slow to me. Love was actually faster than Stark when he got shaken up with Barragan's death, so they should be at the same level of speed.

    I also don't think Love is a simple melee fighter. His Tengumaru gives him pretty interesting abilities. Melee is something like Lisa or Hiyori. Love's Shikai can negate attacks that are enough to take down likes of Shunsui (Fellow users, don't start with him "Shunsui was just acting", I discussed it far too many times)

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...85-page-8.html

    All that WITHOUT using his Mask. Vaizards are just on different level. Given their experience and constant training it's a given they're stronger than current captains (seniors excluded, but I'm sure they could put up a fair fight)

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-17.html

    I don't think this attack is Tengumaru's ability, more like Kido used with Zanpakuto (thus the warning for Tengumaru? xd), but Love in Shikai is not just a simple melee fighter.
    That's a whole new point. It's a proven fact that Byakuya still didn't manage to catch up to Yoruichi's speed. He'd probably be slightly beaten if he kept making it a battle of speed against Zommari, as well.
    Starkk was definitely one of the fastest Espada, but it's difficult to judge. Kenpachi has always been average at speed, since he didn't need it. But regardless, Byakuya's Bankai would be inconvenient against an opponent like Starkk, who was firing multiple ceros in the blink of an eye, so, he would need to rely on his own speed. Therefore, he'd probably not be able to defeat him, unless he could get him with a surprise Kido attack.

    As for Love being melee, I was just referring to his style. That attack is probably a Zanpakuto ability, though. At least, looking at the previous page makes me interpret it that way.

    I get your point, though. So many fast characters were introduced after Byakuya's Bankai was introduced that there happened to be too many guys who can put up a fight against it in a fairly easy way, which hurts him in a ranking debate.
    As a point of perspective, I don't use proof of how well Love and Rose did against Starkk while losing, since it doesn't seem to be a feat for me. Thus, I wouldn't rank them ahead of Byakuya given what they've shown. I'll put Shinji a tier above, though, since he got into fights with Grimmjow, Gin and Aizen, and managed to hold his ground in each, proving his abilities.

    I don't think any deeper analysis is required, since if (and probably it's a matter of time only) the rest of the Vaizards show a Bankai, they are likely to surpass Byakuya's level, as well (though, I guess it's too much to say it's a given, since it'll depend on the nature of the Bankai).

  5. #170
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    As a point of perspective, I don't use proof of how well Love and Rose did against Starkk while losing, since it doesn't seem to be a feat for me. Thus, I wouldn't rank them ahead of Byakuya given what they've shown. I'll put Shinji a tier above, though, since he got into fights with Grimmjow, Gin and Aizen, and managed to hold his ground in each, proving his abilities.
    They didn't lose. They tanked every damn wolf Stark had. Stark did act like he already won, but Rose and Love still had their masks. That's why they commented on Shunsui's butting in and had problem with Kyoraku's style. They were bruised and tired, but not almost dead. Both of them made much, much more than Shunsui did. Shunsui just took a guy that used his one-time ultimate weapon, using his own soul. He was like a soldier without a gun, fighting with knife against a sniper rifle.

    Well, in my opinion their performance against Hichigo, not getting hurt at all for 10 minutes when Byakuya got owned in few seconds speaks highly of their strength. And they didn't even use their Shikais. Only Kensei used it. Hollow or not, it was still Bankai Ichigo. Byakuya couldn't handle his speed when he went Bankai. Let alone when Hollow tried to take over. And Vaizards did it with ease, without Shikai and mask. Love used his mask only to block first Cero, that Ichigo was about to fire.

    I guess we'll have to wait for their Bankais to be sure. I think the fact, that we even discuss if Vaizards in Shikai are stronger than Byakuya already makes them above him. Byakuya in Shikai wouldn't be able to compete with them. But now we will probably see Byakuya (Royal Palace), Hitsugaya (real Bankai) and Komamura (Talking to a dog?) powering up to their level, so we'll have to end this discussion. Other captains won't get any sudden power-up, so people won't probably want to discuss if Vaizards and seniors during war are stronger than Byakuya before it. It'd be too obvious and hurting for Byakuya's fans.
    Last edited by Duniak; August 26, 2013 at 06:33 AM.

  6. #171
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Thumbs Up Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Bleach Wikia about Byakuya's speed...

    Byakuya is arguably best known for his skill in Shunpo. Having been taught by, but never beating "Goddess of Flash" Yoruichi Shihōin, he is easily one of the most proficient users of this skill in all of Soul Society. He remained able to use Shunpo after severing the muscles and tendons in his left leg.

    Bleach Wikia about Byakuya's spiritual pressure/power

    He can exert an immense amount of Spiritual Pressure, which, in addition to his already admirable combat skills and finesse, makes him one of the most formidable captains. His spiritual pressure can be felt from a great distance, and it has the tendency to make people perspire in fear.

    Bleach Wikia on Byakuya's Endurance

    While not having the most imposing appearance compared to other Shinigami captains like Kenpachi Zaraki, Byakuya is a very resilient fighter. During his fight against Ichigo, despite gaining severe injuries, Byakuya continued fighting effectively, even ignoring his wounds to the point where he seemed unfazed by them. At the end of the fight, he performed an impressive Flash Step to leave. During his fight with the 7th Espada Zommari Rureaux, Byakuya willingly damaged himself to escape from his enemy's possession attack, and continued to fight as though unaffected, eventually obtaining victory. During his fight with Tsukishima, he had his entire left arm mutilated by Senbonzakura, and still defeated the Fullbringer.

    Clearly, this captain is exceptional, far above average.

    As much as one (not naming names here) might want to escape the facts, a person would have to be blind to ignore this captain's abilities and durability, which is why the dagger points out that he stands out among his peers...the other people of his same rank, the captains.

    In addition, according to the ability charts in the Bleach databook, only Yamamoto, Aizen, Kyouraku, and Unohana scored higher overall.

    When ranked by combat power, only Yamamoto, Aizen and Kyouraku outscored him.

    Now, the Vizards aren't in the first databook, but even in the second, I do not see a specific reference anywhere stating they are more powerful than the current captains. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

    As Unohana was already ranked above Byakuya before and Kenpachi defeated her, he is probably ranked higher than Byakuya at the moment. Still, Byakuya has yet to show what ability he has obtained in the royal palace.
    Last edited by Firebird0ne; August 26, 2013 at 04:35 PM.

  7. #172
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    It has to be said that entries in the wiki don't really constitute proof. Yes, it's fact based, but the way the skill list is done, it focuses completely on the positives by themselves, which doesn't really work for comparing one character against others.

    Anyway, those statements don't actually mean that much. As a Captain, he is by definition one of the top 13 users in SS of any skill in general. I'd also say that whole paragraph about his reiatsu is pointless for the same reason - any Captain-level reiatsu will have the same effect on any lesser Shinigami, from VC down. It says he's one of the most formidable because he has lots of reiatsu and combat skill, while doing nothing to demonstrate that that reiatsu or skill is anywhere above any other Captain. I don't know why that sentence is even there tbh. And again on the endurance. Some fairly impressive feats, but is it really much better than anything we've seen from Ichigo, Ikkaku or Renji? All those paragraphs really say is that he's powerful, which isn't saying much at all.

    As to the power charts, as I understand it, it's all relative to the individual's potential. One person's 60 in offence could be higher than another person's 80, for example. Aizen has at least twice the power of an average Captain (I hate to use the term average Captain, because they're all different), but IIRC his score wasn't twice as high as others'. If you're correct, Ukitake scores lower than Byakuya (because of his illness I think), but there was that moment when he appeared behind Byakuya and caught his sword arm barehanded, so he's at least fast enough to catch Byakuya off guard, and apparently with little effort. He's implied to be one of the strongest, but scores lower than Byakuya. What I'm saying is that those charts don't work for comparing power levels as such, they're just about the balance of each Captains' skillset.

  8. #173
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    It has to be said that entries in the wiki don't really constitute proof. Yes, it's fact based, but the way the skill list is done, it focuses completely on the positives by themselves, which doesn't really work for comparing one character against others.

    Anyway, those statements don't actually mean that much. As a Captain, he is by definition one of the top 13 users in SS of any skill in general. I'd also say that whole paragraph about his reiatsu is pointless for the same reason - any Captain-level reiatsu will have the same effect on any lesser Shinigami, from VC down. It says he's one of the most formidable because he has lots of reiatsu and combat skill, while doing nothing to demonstrate that that reiatsu or skill is anywhere above any other Captain. I don't know why that sentence is even there tbh. And again on the endurance. Some fairly impressive feats, but is it really much better than anything we've seen from Ichigo, Ikkaku or Renji? All those paragraphs really say is that he's powerful, which isn't saying much at all.

    As to the power charts, as I understand it, it's all relative to the individual's potential. One person's 60 in offence could be higher than another person's 80, for example. Aizen has at least twice the power of an average Captain (I hate to use the term average Captain, because they're all different), but IIRC his score wasn't twice as high as others'. If you're correct, Ukitake scores lower than Byakuya (because of his illness I think), but there was that moment when he appeared behind Byakuya and caught his sword arm barehanded, so he's at least fast enough to catch Byakuya off guard, and apparently with little effort. He's implied to be one of the strongest, but scores lower than Byakuya. What I'm saying is that those charts don't work for comparing power levels as such, they're just about the balance of each Captains' skillset.
    But what is perfectly clear from the data book is that there is no captain who scores so well that they would trounce all others, except old man Yama. That's why he was so hard to replace. And that means that if they dueled, there would be a lot of 'draws' and some 'lucky wins,' but probably no decisive victories. Byakuya is fast and has powerful attacks, but is rattled by the thought of harm to Rukia. Kenpachi crushes with spiritual pressure and brute strength, but stinks at kido and doesn't bother with defense. if you are arguing that all of the captains are roughly at the same level, but excel in different skills, I wouldn't argue with that. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. But to call Byakuya 'average' and to say the majority of other captains are better (as some others have, again, not naming names), despite numerous sources being in agreement that's not true, is to grossly underestimate his abilities. He's wicked fast, a master strategist, a kido master and able to shift strategies in battle.

    In Hueco Mundo, Zommari couldn't defeat him with speed (Byakuya used special flash steps, so the Espada played dirty by involving Rukia, prompting Byakuya to abandon his usual methods and just crush the bastard with his bankai). And no, he probably didn't have to go bankai. The manga says he was angry, so that prompted his overkill response. Against Yammy, he was no worse off than Kenpachi, who fought alongside him, once the fight got serious. (That was the zero Espada, by the way. So much for him being average.) If he was average, he wouldn't have been able to fight Yammy...lol, or Kenpachi! And if you don't think he and Kenpachi tangled after Yammy went down, think again. It's in the manga, they started into fighting each other. And the cute Omake at the end of one of the shows even called attention to that.

    Against Tsukishima, he was facing an opponent who instantly inserted himself into Byakuya's past and knew every technique and every countermove to use against him. But Byakuya STILL beat him, creating a new technique to do so. Has any other captain done that?

    Ichigo and As Nodt are the only two to defeat him. Ichigo won because he's the protagonist, so he was just going to win. Whatever skills he needed, he got. That's pretty much standard for the medium.

    As Nodt had an ability that would undo ANYONE, even the most hardened fighter, because everyone has someone to protect. Shinji has Hiyori. Hitsugaya has Momo. Soi Fon is obsessed with Yoruichi. And anyone who faced As Nodt would not have beaten him. Byakuya did not lose because of As Nodt's abilities. He clearly broke through the fear ability and attacked in the end, both before and after being struck with his own bankai. He was defeated by his own bankai, because it is repeated ad nauseum that no one can defeat their bankai with a shikai...not even our lovely protagonist, so far. Byakuya was beaten and beaten badly because he had a very powerful bankai. Soi Fon's was useless to the SR who fought her. Komamura's hasn't defeated anyone in the manga. And Hitsugaya's is the bankai of a young captain, not as developed as the rest. The other captains who fought didn't face their bankai or apparently any power that overly challenged them.

    But I am beginning to see that some responders refuse to accept what is widely accepted as truth, by many sources, both official and non. Byakuya is one of the most formidable captains.

    How many sources out there call him average??? Provide some, then...if you can find them.
    Last edited by Firebird0ne; August 26, 2013 at 08:39 PM.

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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    There was Firebird's post, but noone wants to read it for the second time
    Oh, to prove your point you're using wiki now?

    http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hoh%C5%8D

    The same wiki says Byakuya is a master, while Ichigo is not. Love, who could outrun Stark is also there. What does it mean? Wiki is shit. And do I have to tell you, NOTHING there is canon? Both Urahara and Shunsui are listed as "Masters", while Love, who outrun Stark and Ichigo, who is worlds above Byakuya, are "just" experts. Again, wiki is shit and NOT canon. You are pitiful. You know you can't prove ANYTHING with manga so you use wikia, who says every captain has "immense spiritual reiatsu". Justification? "As a captain..." xD And the funny part is, wikia bases it's knowledge SOLELY ON MANGA. So if there is anything in wiki, it is in manga. Saying how he is formidable won't change anything. In manga it's clearly shown he is shit. Wiki is made by fanboys like you and people like me, which results in every captain being formidable and having crazy ability. Every captain is listed as someone who has monstrous reiatsu, super swordmanship and endurance, because they got hit and stood!

    Databook also IS NOT canon, IS NOT written by Kubo and serves one purpose, to make money and to give overall information on captains. Lilynette was said to be a Fraccion in one Databook. Seems legit, right? Aizen also didn't score perfect score in Databook and he himself said he mastered EVERY Shinigami art. And could mop the floor with MOST with his Shikai.
    Last edited by Duniak; August 27, 2013 at 12:09 AM.

  10. #175
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Crystal Black's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Oh, to prove your point you're using wiki now?

    http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hoh%C5%8D

    The same wiki says Byakuya is a master, while Ichigo is not. Love, who could outrun Stark is also there. What does it mean? Wiki is shit. And do I have to tell you, NOTHING there is canon? Both Urahara and Shunsui are listed as "Masters", while Love, who outrun Stark and Ichigo, who is worlds above Byakuya, are "just" experts. Again, wiki is shit and NOT canon. You are pitiful. You know you can't prove ANYTHING with manga so you use wikia, who says every captain has "immense spiritual reiatsu". Justification? "As a captain..." xD And the funny part is, wikia bases it's knowledge SOLELY ON MANGA. So if there is anything in wiki, it is in manga. Saying how he is formidable won't change anything. In manga it's clearly shown he is shit. Wiki is made by fanboys like you and people like me, which results in every captain being formidable and having crazy ability. Every captain is listed as someone who has monstrous reiatsu, super swordmanship and endurance, because they got hit and stood!

    Databook also IS NOT canon, IS NOT written by Kubo and serves one purpose, to make money and to give overall information on captains. Lilynette was said to be a Fraccion in one Databook. Seems legit, right? Aizen also didn't score perfect score in Databook and he himself said he mastered EVERY Shinigami art. And could mop the floor with MOST with his Shikai.

    While I agree about wiki not being good source to rely on, there are a couple of things wrong here Duniak. Byakuya is indeed a master of Flash steps, (Hohou to be more precise). His usage of Utsusemi is proof of this. Shunpo is the most basic technique of fast movement, and not everyone is skilled in this technique either. I wholly agree with the list Bleach wikia has as the masters of "Shunpo". They can make probably a few exceptions like Isshin and maybe Shinji. Love however is not one of them. Nor did he outrun release Starrk at any instance in the manga. Ichigo also isn't 'worlds' above Byakuya either, at least, the one that foguht him. Ichigo is a special case anyway.

    About our other debate, I'll just leave it as be. Agree to Disagree.
    Last edited by Crystal Black; August 27, 2013 at 06:06 PM.
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  11. #176
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KungPaoChicken's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    In his current state, he's probably on the level as the big wolf dude. Hopefully, well be provided with hard evidence on how he will be after his recovery.

    Thankyou zero division.

  12. #177
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    While I agree about wiki not being good source to rely on, there are a couple of things wrong here Duniak. Byakuya is indeed a master of Flash steps, (Hohou to be more precise). His usage of Utsusemi is proof of this. Shunpo is the most basic technique of fast movement, and not everyone is skilled in this technique either. I wholly agree with the list Bleach wikia has as the masters of "Shunpo". They can make probably a few exceptions like Isshin and maybe Shinji. Love however is not one of them. Nor did he outrun release Starrk at any instance in the manga. Ichigo also isn't 'worlds' above Byakuya either, at least, the one that foguht him. Ichigo is a special case anyway.

    About our other debate, I'll just leave it as be. Agree to Disagree.
    I know Byakuya used Yoruichi's techniques. What I wanted to say was, mastery over Shunpo is not connected to speed at all, so using it as a base is wrong. I wrote too much about wiki being shit and Firebird being wrong to use it and missed actual point I wanted to make... xD Expert Ichigo is faster than Master Byakuya, so mastery doesn't mean being faster. I still can't understand why Kisuke is "Master"... Because he was 2nd Squad? OR Yamamoto? Most of "masters" didn't show anything that'd make them higher than most Experts in terms of mastery over Shunpo. In terms of speed, there are also people in Experts who can outrun them. Vaizards, Isshin, Ichigo, Tousen. They probably put them there because Isshin didn't show much (he could push Shunpo Master Aizen to his limit...?) and Vaizards and Tousen have mask, so they're not included, as it boosts their speed.

    Ichigo that fought Byakuya was roughly equal after being tired and in Senkei, was stronger before that. And after Ichigo's trainings, mastery over Hollowfication etc, I think he's much above Byakuya.

    P.S Love wanted to hit Stark after negating Ceros with his club. Stark escaped, and Love told him to not even think about escaping. And he Shunpo'd him doing a swing with his club at the same time. I believe I showed that page with negating Ceros to Haku before.

  13. #178
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    Bleach Wikia about Byakuya's speed...

    Byakuya is arguably best known for his skill in Shunpo. Having been taught by, but never beating "Goddess of Flash" Yoruichi Shihōin, he is easily one of the most proficient users of this skill in all of Soul Society. He remained able to use Shunpo after severing the muscles and tendons in his left leg.

    Bleach Wikia about Byakuya's spiritual pressure/power

    He can exert an immense amount of Spiritual Pressure, which, in addition to his already admirable combat skills and finesse, makes him one of the most formidable captains. His spiritual pressure can be felt from a great distance, and it has the tendency to make people perspire in fear.

    Bleach Wikia on Byakuya's Endurance

    While not having the most imposing appearance compared to other Shinigami captains like Kenpachi Zaraki, Byakuya is a very resilient fighter. During his fight against Ichigo, despite gaining severe injuries, Byakuya continued fighting effectively, even ignoring his wounds to the point where he seemed unfazed by them. At the end of the fight, he performed an impressive Flash Step to leave. During his fight with the 7th Espada Zommari Rureaux, Byakuya willingly damaged himself to escape from his enemy's possession attack, and continued to fight as though unaffected, eventually obtaining victory. During his fight with Tsukishima, he had his entire left arm mutilated by Senbonzakura, and still defeated the Fullbringer.

    Clearly, this captain is exceptional, far above average.

    As much as one (not naming names here) might want to escape the facts, a person would have to be blind to ignore this captain's abilities and durability, which is why the dagger points out that he stands out among his peers...the other people of his same rank, the captains.

    In addition, according to the ability charts in the Bleach databook, only Yamamoto, Aizen, Kyouraku, and Unohana scored higher overall.

    When ranked by combat power, only Yamamoto, Aizen and Kyouraku outscored him.

    Now, the Vizards aren't in the first databook, but even in the second, I do not see a specific reference anywhere stating they are more powerful than the current captains. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

    As Unohana was already ranked above Byakuya before and Kenpachi defeated her, he is probably ranked higher than Byakuya at the moment. Still, Byakuya has yet to show what ability he has obtained in the royal palace.
    Dude we have been through this and I have debunked everything you said. You state very well how powerful Byakuya is. Yet you don't offer anything that puts him over other Captains. On the contrary the manga portrays him as a weaker Captain.

  14. #179
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Byakuya is the strongest of the mid-tier captains. And by strongest I don't mean in the DBZ muscle sense (pure reiatsu). I mean it in the "lethality" sense. He's good at everything, and the best in his league at a lot of them.

    The mid-tier captains are:

    Soi Fon
    Hitsugaya
    Byakuya
    Kenpachi

    Soi Fon's the fastest, Kenpachi's the strongest, and Hitsugaya... is just there. Byakuya's faster than all but the fastest in this list. More powerful than all but the strongest in this list. Better at Kidou than ALL of them, more versatile than ALL of them, and more durable than all but the most durable in this list. He'd beat any one of them 7 out of 10 matches.

    In other words, he's at the precipice that seperates senior captains from mid-tier captains, while the others are slightly behind him.

    Quote Originally Posted by vanyar
    True, but Yama was tricked and Kenpachi was beaten by Juha. Kenpachi defeated 3 Stern Ritter, each with unique abilities, how many did Byakuya defeat?
    To be fair, none of them had powers as hax as As Nodt. Kenpachi was immune to their abilities to suppress bankai. Byakuya's fighting style revolves around his Bankai. You can't compare an opponent who lost his greatest strength to an opponent who was capable of using theirs.

    I promise you Kenpachi would've lost if his power could've been diminished by the same percentage Byakuya's was.

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  16. #180
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Byakuya is the strongest of the mid-tier captains. And by strongest I don't mean in the DBZ muscle sense (pure reiatsu). I mean it in the "lethality" sense. He's good at everything, and the best in his league at a lot of them.

    The mid-tier captains are:

    Soi Fon
    Hitsugaya
    Byakuya
    Kenpachi

    Soi Fon's the fastest, Kenpachi's the strongest, and Hitsugaya... is just there. Byakuya's faster than all but the fastest in this list. More powerful than all but the strongest in this list. Better at Kidou than ALL of them, more versatile than ALL of them, and more durable than all but the most durable in this list. He'd beat any one of them 7 out of 10 matches.

    In other words, he's at the precipice that seperates senior captains from mid-tier captains, while the others are slightly behind him.



    To be fair, none of them had powers as hax as As Nodt. Kenpachi was immune to their abilities to suppress bankai. Byakuya's fighting style revolves around his Bankai. You can't compare an opponent who lost his greatest strength to an opponent who was capable of using theirs.

    I promise you Kenpachi would've lost if his power could've been diminished by the same percentage Byakuya's was.
    Although Bleach does not anywhere in canon, separate the captains into tiers (some forum members seem to have created their own and insist on claiming they are fact), your general argument here seems sensible. Thanks for bringing some balance to the conversation.

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