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And I don't think Ichigo's GT in Shikai is even comparable to one in Bankai. Ichigo's GT couldn't scratch Kirge. And in Bankai he could use his GT just fine despite Kirge absorbing Allon. And I also don't think Ichigo's GT is all that strong. It surprised most people, that he grew that much, but Bankai GT is worlds above one in Shikai. And I'm pretty sure that Kido can have such penetrating strength as GT.
And even if you really think Mayuri relies on his Bankai, you were the one who said "most" of captains rely on them. If you want to argue if ratio is 4:9 or 3:10 go ahead, but that doesn't change the fact, that 4 is not more than 9 and 3 not more than 10.
---------- Post added at 06:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 AM ----------
Well, Byakuya cannot fight against his Bankai with a sealed form. Actually, no one can, unless you are super-fast like Ichigo and dodge all blades. There is no point in trying to make a sword fight, either. If Byakuya didn't lose his composure during fight, he wouldn't try to take on his Bankai. And since he lost it (let it be because of As Nodt's Fear power or because of his own state in the fight), there was no way he could figure about his Bankai. And As Nodt wasn't using his fighting techniques. He simply unleashed them over Byakuya. I don't recall any point in which he actually did anything else, so, even the safe zone concept would be nonexistent in the first place.
Moving onto the other point in the hand, I wonder why going Bankai is considered a criteria in the ranking here. The captains who frequently go Bankai (Komamura, Hitsugaya, Byakuya) all keep the same fighting style while switching from Shikai to Bankai. So, there actually is no reason to hold it out against an enemy of certain caliber, since those are not really "trump cards". They basically give power up in the sense of magnitude, so, technically, the ability spam is quite understandable. I don't think the most of the unseen Bankai will end up that easily conceivable, maybe aside from Love's, who is a melee fighter like Komamura in some way.
I also don't think Love is a simple melee fighter. His Tengumaru gives him pretty interesting abilities. Melee is something like Lisa or Hiyori. Love's Shikai can negate attacks that are enough to take down likes of Shunsui (Fellow users, don't start with him "Shunsui was just acting", I discussed it far too many times)
All that WITHOUT using his Mask. Vaizards are just on different level. Given their experience and constant training it's a given they're stronger than current captains (seniors excluded, but I'm sure they could put up a fair fight)
I don't think this attack is Tengumaru's ability, more like Kido used with Zanpakuto (thus the warning for Tengumaru? xd), but Love in Shikai is not just a simple melee fighter.
Starkk was definitely one of the fastest Espada, but it's difficult to judge. Kenpachi has always been average at speed, since he didn't need it. But regardless, Byakuya's Bankai would be inconvenient against an opponent like Starkk, who was firing multiple ceros in the blink of an eye, so, he would need to rely on his own speed. Therefore, he'd probably not be able to defeat him, unless he could get him with a surprise Kido attack.
As for Love being melee, I was just referring to his style. That attack is probably a Zanpakuto ability, though. At least, looking at the previous page makes me interpret it that way.
I get your point, though. So many fast characters were introduced after Byakuya's Bankai was introduced that there happened to be too many guys who can put up a fight against it in a fairly easy way, which hurts him in a ranking debate.
As a point of perspective, I don't use proof of how well Love and Rose did against Starkk while losing, since it doesn't seem to be a feat for me. Thus, I wouldn't rank them ahead of Byakuya given what they've shown. I'll put Shinji a tier above, though, since he got into fights with Grimmjow, Gin and Aizen, and managed to hold his ground in each, proving his abilities.
I don't think any deeper analysis is required, since if (and probably it's a matter of time only) the rest of the Vaizards show a Bankai, they are likely to surpass Byakuya's level, as well (though, I guess it's too much to say it's a given, since it'll depend on the nature of the Bankai).
Well, in my opinion their performance against Hichigo, not getting hurt at all for 10 minutes when Byakuya got owned in few seconds speaks highly of their strength. And they didn't even use their Shikais. Only Kensei used it. Hollow or not, it was still Bankai Ichigo. Byakuya couldn't handle his speed when he went Bankai. Let alone when Hollow tried to take over. And Vaizards did it with ease, without Shikai and mask. Love used his mask only to block first Cero, that Ichigo was about to fire.
I guess we'll have to wait for their Bankais to be sure. I think the fact, that we even discuss if Vaizards in Shikai are stronger than Byakuya already makes them above him. Byakuya in Shikai wouldn't be able to compete with them. But now we will probably see Byakuya (Royal Palace), Hitsugaya (real Bankai) and Komamura (Talking to a dog?) powering up to their level, so we'll have to end this discussion. Other captains won't get any sudden power-up, so people won't probably want to discuss if Vaizards and seniors during war are stronger than Byakuya before it. It'd be too obvious and hurting for Byakuya's fans.
Last edited by Duniak; August 26, 2013 at 06:33 AM.
Bleach Wikia about Byakuya's speed...
Byakuya is arguably best known for his skill in Shunpo. Having been taught by, but never beating "Goddess of Flash" Yoruichi Shihōin, he is easily one of the most proficient users of this skill in all of Soul Society. He remained able to use Shunpo after severing the muscles and tendons in his left leg.
Bleach Wikia about Byakuya's spiritual pressure/power
He can exert an immense amount of Spiritual Pressure, which, in addition to his already admirable combat skills and finesse, makes him one of the most formidable captains. His spiritual pressure can be felt from a great distance, and it has the tendency to make people perspire in fear.
Bleach Wikia on Byakuya's Endurance
While not having the most imposing appearance compared to other Shinigami captains like Kenpachi Zaraki, Byakuya is a very resilient fighter. During his fight against Ichigo, despite gaining severe injuries, Byakuya continued fighting effectively, even ignoring his wounds to the point where he seemed unfazed by them. At the end of the fight, he performed an impressive Flash Step to leave. During his fight with the 7th Espada Zommari Rureaux, Byakuya willingly damaged himself to escape from his enemy's possession attack, and continued to fight as though unaffected, eventually obtaining victory. During his fight with Tsukishima, he had his entire left arm mutilated by Senbonzakura, and still defeated the Fullbringer.
Clearly, this captain is exceptional, far above average.
As much as one (not naming names here) might want to escape the facts, a person would have to be blind to ignore this captain's abilities and durability, which is why the dagger points out that he stands out among his peers...the other people of his same rank, the captains.
In addition, according to the ability charts in the Bleach databook, only Yamamoto, Aizen, Kyouraku, and Unohana scored higher overall.
When ranked by combat power, only Yamamoto, Aizen and Kyouraku outscored him.
Now, the Vizards aren't in the first databook, but even in the second, I do not see a specific reference anywhere stating they are more powerful than the current captains. Please do correct me if I am wrong.
As Unohana was already ranked above Byakuya before and Kenpachi defeated her, he is probably ranked higher than Byakuya at the moment. Still, Byakuya has yet to show what ability he has obtained in the royal palace.
Last edited by Firebird0ne; August 26, 2013 at 04:35 PM.
It has to be said that entries in the wiki don't really constitute proof. Yes, it's fact based, but the way the skill list is done, it focuses completely on the positives by themselves, which doesn't really work for comparing one character against others.
Anyway, those statements don't actually mean that much. As a Captain, he is by definition one of the top 13 users in SS of any skill in general. I'd also say that whole paragraph about his reiatsu is pointless for the same reason - any Captain-level reiatsu will have the same effect on any lesser Shinigami, from VC down. It says he's one of the most formidable because he has lots of reiatsu and combat skill, while doing nothing to demonstrate that that reiatsu or skill is anywhere above any other Captain. I don't know why that sentence is even there tbh. And again on the endurance. Some fairly impressive feats, but is it really much better than anything we've seen from Ichigo, Ikkaku or Renji? All those paragraphs really say is that he's powerful, which isn't saying much at all.
As to the power charts, as I understand it, it's all relative to the individual's potential. One person's 60 in offence could be higher than another person's 80, for example. Aizen has at least twice the power of an average Captain (I hate to use the term average Captain, because they're all different), but IIRC his score wasn't twice as high as others'. If you're correct, Ukitake scores lower than Byakuya (because of his illness I think), but there was that moment when he appeared behind Byakuya and caught his sword arm barehanded, so he's at least fast enough to catch Byakuya off guard, and apparently with little effort. He's implied to be one of the strongest, but scores lower than Byakuya. What I'm saying is that those charts don't work for comparing power levels as such, they're just about the balance of each Captains' skillset.
In Hueco Mundo, Zommari couldn't defeat him with speed (Byakuya used special flash steps, so the Espada played dirty by involving Rukia, prompting Byakuya to abandon his usual methods and just crush the bastard with his bankai). And no, he probably didn't have to go bankai. The manga says he was angry, so that prompted his overkill response. Against Yammy, he was no worse off than Kenpachi, who fought alongside him, once the fight got serious. (That was the zero Espada, by the way. So much for him being average.) If he was average, he wouldn't have been able to fight Yammy...lol, or Kenpachi! And if you don't think he and Kenpachi tangled after Yammy went down, think again. It's in the manga, they started into fighting each other. And the cute Omake at the end of one of the shows even called attention to that.
Against Tsukishima, he was facing an opponent who instantly inserted himself into Byakuya's past and knew every technique and every countermove to use against him. But Byakuya STILL beat him, creating a new technique to do so. Has any other captain done that?
Ichigo and As Nodt are the only two to defeat him. Ichigo won because he's the protagonist, so he was just going to win. Whatever skills he needed, he got. That's pretty much standard for the medium.
As Nodt had an ability that would undo ANYONE, even the most hardened fighter, because everyone has someone to protect. Shinji has Hiyori. Hitsugaya has Momo. Soi Fon is obsessed with Yoruichi. And anyone who faced As Nodt would not have beaten him. Byakuya did not lose because of As Nodt's abilities. He clearly broke through the fear ability and attacked in the end, both before and after being struck with his own bankai. He was defeated by his own bankai, because it is repeated ad nauseum that no one can defeat their bankai with a shikai...not even our lovely protagonist, so far. Byakuya was beaten and beaten badly because he had a very powerful bankai. Soi Fon's was useless to the SR who fought her. Komamura's hasn't defeated anyone in the manga. And Hitsugaya's is the bankai of a young captain, not as developed as the rest. The other captains who fought didn't face their bankai or apparently any power that overly challenged them.
But I am beginning to see that some responders refuse to accept what is widely accepted as truth, by many sources, both official and non. Byakuya is one of the most formidable captains.
How many sources out there call him average??? Provide some, then...if you can find them.
Last edited by Firebird0ne; August 26, 2013 at 08:39 PM.
The same wiki says Byakuya is a master, while Ichigo is not. Love, who could outrun Stark is also there. What does it mean? Wiki is shit. And do I have to tell you, NOTHING there is canon? Both Urahara and Shunsui are listed as "Masters", while Love, who outrun Stark and Ichigo, who is worlds above Byakuya, are "just" experts. Again, wiki is shit and NOT canon. You are pitiful. You know you can't prove ANYTHING with manga so you use wikia, who says every captain has "immense spiritual reiatsu". Justification? "As a captain..." xD And the funny part is, wikia bases it's knowledge SOLELY ON MANGA. So if there is anything in wiki, it is in manga. Saying how he is formidable won't change anything. In manga it's clearly shown he is shit. Wiki is made by fanboys like you and people like me, which results in every captain being formidable and having crazy ability. Every captain is listed as someone who has monstrous reiatsu, super swordmanship and endurance, because they got hit and stood!
Databook also IS NOT canon, IS NOT written by Kubo and serves one purpose, to make money and to give overall information on captains. Lilynette was said to be a Fraccion in one Databook. Seems legit, right? Aizen also didn't score perfect score in Databook and he himself said he mastered EVERY Shinigami art. And could mop the floor with MOST with his Shikai.
Last edited by Duniak; August 27, 2013 at 12:09 AM.
While I agree about wiki not being good source to rely on, there are a couple of things wrong here Duniak. Byakuya is indeed a master of Flash steps, (Hohou to be more precise). His usage of Utsusemi is proof of this. Shunpo is the most basic technique of fast movement, and not everyone is skilled in this technique either. I wholly agree with the list Bleach wikia has as the masters of "Shunpo". They can make probably a few exceptions like Isshin and maybe Shinji. Love however is not one of them. Nor did he outrun release Starrk at any instance in the manga. Ichigo also isn't 'worlds' above Byakuya either, at least, the one that foguht him. Ichigo is a special case anyway.
About our other debate, I'll just leave it as be. Agree to Disagree.
Last edited by Crystal Black; August 27, 2013 at 06:06 PM.
In his current state, he's probably on the level as the big wolf dude. Hopefully, well be provided with hard evidence on how he will be after his recovery.
Thankyou zero division.
Ichigo that fought Byakuya was roughly equal after being tired and in Senkei, was stronger before that. And after Ichigo's trainings, mastery over Hollowfication etc, I think he's much above Byakuya.
P.S Love wanted to hit Stark after negating Ceros with his club. Stark escaped, and Love told him to not even think about escaping. And he Shunpo'd him doing a swing with his club at the same time. I believe I showed that page with negating Ceros to Haku before.
Byakuya is the strongest of the mid-tier captains. And by strongest I don't mean in the DBZ muscle sense (pure reiatsu). I mean it in the "lethality" sense. He's good at everything, and the best in his league at a lot of them.
The mid-tier captains are:
Soi Fon's the fastest, Kenpachi's the strongest, and Hitsugaya... is just there. Byakuya's faster than all but the fastest in this list. More powerful than all but the strongest in this list. Better at Kidou than ALL of them, more versatile than ALL of them, and more durable than all but the most durable in this list. He'd beat any one of them 7 out of 10 matches.
In other words, he's at the precipice that seperates senior captains from mid-tier captains, while the others are slightly behind him.
To be fair, none of them had powers as hax as As Nodt. Kenpachi was immune to their abilities to suppress bankai. Byakuya's fighting style revolves around his Bankai. You can't compare an opponent who lost his greatest strength to an opponent who was capable of using theirs.Originally Posted by vanyar
I promise you Kenpachi would've lost if his power could've been diminished by the same percentage Byakuya's was.