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[QUOTE=Kay3795;3460351]1) Ganju is an individual with fairly noticeable knowledge on grasping reiatsu. He along with these randoms http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...15-page-5.html felt the chaotic nature of reiatsu being released.
2) During the SS fight, the spectator of Ichigo's growth, Miss Yoruichi Shihōin http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...15-page-4.html
knew for Ichigo to tie (win) against Zaraki, it was an amazing thing. Granted!
However when it came to challenging Byakuya, she wondered if Ichigo was smocking some crack because there aren't no way he is challenging that Noble (yet) http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...20-page-5.html
Wait a sec? Didn't Ichigo just match Zaraki? Why go through the trouble of training him in Zanjustsu, Bankai & many other things? Right because Ichigo obviously doesn't "stand a chance" http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...20-page-8.html
Even before obtaining bankai http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-16.html Miss Spectator obviously noticed that Ichigo had improve incredibly YET he wasn't ready to take on the Noble known as Byakuya.
3. Your third point solidifies that people here either don't read the manga, take pleasure in skipping details (making me reluctant to even converse if them), are fanboys or all of the above. Excuse me! When did SWP suddenly become people whom are the strongest? Do you all love being called out as people who spout BS or what? Dou you know that Yama isn't a SWP?
If you notice I wasn't denying that Byakuya had more powerful reiatsu than Zaraki back in the SS arc. It just isn't noteworthy now that we know what we know about Zaraki. I think we can safely conclude that war potentials are based on power and attitude. Yammamoto would've been one if he didn't become "soft". What the three confirmed war potentials have in common is that they're overwhelmingly powerful and their not afraid to go against a higher authority. Yama definitely has the power but he didn't have the attitude. Byakuya has neither.
So Byakuya was able to take on a VC, good for him. He lost to Ichigo. And he defeated Zommari, the 7th Espada. I'm pretty sure we've seen other captains face off against better.Quote:
Not sure why this is here, never even mentioned these two. My main issue with your Hakuda list was the individuals you decided to list alongside Yamamoto.Quote:
Once again Zaraki's Zanjustu ranking was never an issue. I questioned unnamed members of his squad being ranked above the vast majority of the captains. And also Ikkaku's comparison to the likes of Gin, Byakuya, Shunsui, and Ukitake.Quote:
Another comment that was unwarranted. Never pointed out any of these as incorrectly placed in the rankings. You got some right, yes. That doesn't excuse the exhaustive list of people you got wrong.Quote:
I agree with this, which is why I never mentioned them in my criticism of your list. My problems with your Kido list has been focused on Byakuya and Isshin, although I also object to Soifon's ranking.Quote:
I never mentioned your intellect rankings, I thought they were pretty ok.Quote:
Never addressed this category either.Quote:
I've chosen to ignore the repeated comments about Byakuya because they've already been addressed on multiple occasions. As for this, another deflection of criticism. I never advocated Yamamoto's placement over either Soifon or Yuroichi, never mentioned either of them. I questioned everyone else placed on Yamamoto's level. At this point you're unable to justify components of your ranking and instead try to address things that have never been debated.Quote:
Punching is unarmed combat, just because it's simple doesn't change that. And despite this new juvenile rant, you haven't shown anything to justify that Tier.Quote:
Physical strength. What mention of physical strength was brought up in the context of Ikkaku's ranking in terms of Zanjutsu? You're incapable of supporting your argument, and so have resorted to arguing points that no one has seen fit to put forward.Quote:
Another rant, another waste of text.Quote:
Their feats stand.Quote:
Really, are you actually asking what Urahara has done on the Kido front? The hilarity ensues.Quote:
We referenced Kido, not Hado or Bakudo specifically. Unohana's mastery of Kaido is a mastery of a form of Kido. You seems to be incapable of understanding this.Quote:
None of those things indicate that Isshin's reiatsu is as strong as Yamamoto's. And they definitely don't show mastery of Kido beyond either Unohana or Urahara.Quote:
I don't have a problem with the category, it just seems arbitrary considering the numerous ways in which Shinigami are deadly by nature.Quote:
Yet, we aren't talking about the Espada's abilities. Half of the Espadas had ridiculous abilities beyond what the captains could hope for.Quote:
Once again, I don't consider Kido to be a hax ability to be attributed to an ability because it isn't something that is limited to that person or one group. It can be learned by others, and might be known by others amongst the Gotei 13.Quote:
Last edited by Impossibility; June 22, 2013 at 04:47 PM.
You instantly invalidate your points the moment you brought up SWP because a very crucial detail was skipped yet again regarding Zaraki as a SWP http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-16.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-17.html
Special Asset Number 1
This is it?
That I was grossly overestimating all of you
Soul Society is finished"
---------- Post added at 12:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 AM ----------
If you looked at things carefully & objectively, you wouldn't berate Byakuya by saying "That's real impressive" for him to have stronger reiatsu than a "patched Zaraki who had suppressed most of his power". You were inconsistence with your sayings in a really dubious matter & I ain't got time for that.
Last edited by Kay3795; June 22, 2013 at 06:58 PM.
There's a reason Zaraki was on the list. Bach/Royd knew of Zaraki's actual power thats why he was underwhelmed when he kicked his ass cause he wasn't at the level he was suppose to be at. With regards to Byakuya i wasn't inconsistent in anything. We both agree that he has more powerful reiatsu then that version of Zaraki, the only difference is you see that as noteworthy and I don't now that we know what Kenpachi's full power is.
As far as the manga is concerned, close combat fighting with the sword aka Zanjustsu is what Zaraki had demonstrated to be exceptionally well at & only just recently too. It's why he was "stronger" than Unohana & it's what he surpassed her at (as a kid & now). Anything else such as Kido (lack of), Hand to Hand, Zanpakuto ability (lack of), high speed movement (lack of), control (lack of), perceptiveness (lack of) & etc didn't improve one bit.
Also let me put things real plain & simply for you. Bach was simply not amused. He overrated Zaraki to the extreme & he was disappointed. His judgement of what Zaraki dished out against him was telling enough.
Special Asset Number 1
This is it?
He expected him to be strong & was shocked that Zaraki was the exact contraction of that word strong.
Expected means to "regard something as probable or likely"
He didn't say or imply he "knew of Zaraki's actual power" or that Zaraki got weaker nor did he imply that he (Bach) himself was a stalker or whatever nonsense you are talking about.
Bach was quite clear. He expected Zaraki to be strong & why shouldn't Bach expect that? He is a Kenpachi, the newest Kenpachi to be exact. A kenpachi that according to tradition must have surpassed all the previous kenpachi but alas Bach decided that this Kenpachi was trash whom he overestimated in the end.
If you didn't see it before, do you now see who is writing something of substance & who isn't? Who is making things up & who is posting manga?
In dubious mocking tone you belittled Byakuya having more reiatsu than a patched Zaraki. It's suspect that you very well implied that he (Byakuya) probably couldn't match unpatched Zaraki however I announced the issue with this particular statement using Ganju & subsequently you replied saying "I wasn't denying that Byakuya had more powerful reiatsu than Zaraki back in the SS arc" & even now you said "We both agree that he has more powerful reiatsu then that version of Zaraki".
At this point I'm thinking to myself if you even know the English that you are typing. Your dubiously written post infested with a double meaning & mocking point regarding Byakuya's lvl of reiatsu in comparison to patch Zaraki suddenly changed to 'oh right but I agree that Byakuya had more reiatsu than Zaraki at that time'.
What you did here is referred to as being superficial. People who exemplify superficial behaviour are commonly known to having difficulties in acknowledging profound truths that calls them out on their BS. & that is the inconsistency I'm talking about. I ain't got time for any of that!
It is said in the Manga that after Zaraki defeated Unohana as a kid, he unconsciously sealed away most of his power because he wanted to be able to fight, he was so powerful that he had to seal away his powers like that. And now Zaraki has trained with Unohana to unlock that power and has learned the name of his sword (so he is probably going to get Bankai as well).
Byakuya is still a monster but he is not on Zarakis level. But we might see an ever stronger Byakuya when they all come back from the Palace, it remains to be seen.
Last edited by TheLuffySmile; June 23, 2013 at 01:46 PM.
I agree with those who say current Kenpachi is far more powerful than Byakuya, Kenpachi was more than capable of holding his own against two captain level opponents (among other things) before his power-up and he finally surpassed Unohana (who basically gave the fodder treatment to him) and learned his zanpakuto's name. Byakuya is a well-rounded fighter who is good at kido and shunpo, he is also intelligent and has a versatile bankai but IMHO his feats don't suggest that he is superior to the likes of Unohana, Shunsui, Urahara or Isshin. I'd estimate his power level to be close to Hitsugaya's at this point or perhaps a bit stronger, assuming they both possess their bankais.
I'm not going to read every single argument here, but I dont like Shunsui and Ukitake being trashed Since they are two of my favorite chars, and Yama-Jii himself clearly states that their strength have always been above all others, and that their combat abilities are unrivaled.
And I'm just going to say flat out that Byakuya is a very versatile and well-rounded fighter with a great strategic sense, But he is still far from being on par with the strength of Unohana, Urahara, Zaraki and Isshin.
How can anyone claim that Byakuya is above Unohana, Zaraki, Shunsui and Ukitake base on what Byakuya has shown?
What is this, more page time means more powerful?
Byakuya is obviously more exposed to readers than Ukitake, Shunsui and Unohaha. And we already know, AS MANGA FACT, that Zaraki has sealed his true powers the moment he thought he might kill Unohana during their first encounter. And even when his powers are sealed, Zaraki sealed himself again with his eyepatch.
Byakuya has never sealed his powers and was even able to hone them. He has access to it and even uses it to the fullest. And yet he can't even beat one Stern Ritter.
Zaraki? Well, he just defeated 3 on his own.
With that in mind we can logically conclude that Zaraki is even above Shunsui when it comes to power. But to claim that Byakuya is more powerful than him is just
Last edited by Toby_Temple; June 23, 2013 at 09:59 PM.
i was very dissapointed in his performance against the stern ritter
he is one of the strongest shikigami
abd perhaps the most well rounded when you cinsider his kidou and shushin
but i dont think hes anywhere close to ichigo
At this point only Yama Ji (from Shinigamis) is close to Ichigo's level.
I think Byakuya will be more powerful after they return from King's realm. And if he is also a war potential then him being on par with Zaraki makes sense in the end.
I would not go so far as to say that Ichigo is above Yamamoto when it comes to power. I think it is still too early to even claim that Ichigo is now in Yamamoto's level.
We still need to see how powerful Ichigo is now with his Zangetsus.
Last edited by Toby_Temple; June 23, 2013 at 10:51 PM.
out of the 13 captains I think he is ranked # 10 in strength.
But 'strongest' or 'most powerful' are really vague terms. Because it does little good to be powerful if one does not have a good mix of supporting characteristics. Byakuya is a flash step master, near, although not at the level of Yoruichi...but the only two I've seen move faster were Ichigo in bankai and Yoruichi. He is a kido expert who easily casts 'Danku' without the incantation, and uses lower level spells with great destructive effect. He has a completed bankai that includes several forms. Add to that, he has over forty years of experience as a captain, and has a large amount of battle experience, as he and Kenpachi are often sent out together at the first sign of trouble. Unohana acknowledged the bond between Byakuya and Kenpachi in her speech to him, and Kenpachi does not care for weaklings. He is always trying to goad Byakuya into fighting. If he thought that Byakuya was a weakling, he wouldn't bother.
Byakuya also has years of devoting himself to bringing pride to his clan. As much as I understand Ukitake and Kyouraku have more overall time as captains, think of how they have been shown in the manga. Ukitake is sickly and Shunsui is usually drunk or making passes at women. Kenpachi before the recent chapters didn't care about protecting the seireitei, so much as finding a good fight. Of those and Byakuya, I think that if I needed defending, I would want someone like Byakuya with, not just strong powers, but lots of battle experience, ability to read opponents, and an obsessive devotion to honoring his clan's name by giving his best to the battle.
And to the person who said that he 'couldn't even beat one sternritter,' you ought to consider that As Nodt's power of fear did not defeat Byakuya. Byakuya was defeated because all four of those first arriving captains had been given faulty information that caused them to give up their bankai easily to the enemy. Once As Nodt had that, we saw him struck no less than three times with that power before he was done. Kubo used Byakuya to show a powerful captain at the mercy of his own devastating technique. He didn't choose Soi fon, Hitsugaya or Komamura because their bankais didn't have the devastating effect Byakuya's did. Renji, a captain level fighter who himself had bankai, was nearly killed after being hit once by Byakuya's bankai.
Byakuya may not be the 'strongest' or 'most powerful,' but he is one of the most capable overall fighters because of his expertise in multiple areas, as well as his dedication to honoring his clan and setting an example for others. 'Biggest,' 'strongest,' and 'most powerful,' do not always win the fight. It is the overall ability of the fighter, and Byakuya is a great fighter. That does not mean that the other captains are not. It only means that he probably ranks more highly among them.