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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Byakuya is a mid tier captain. He is cannot beat the Senior Captains (this includes Visored, Kisuke, Yourichi w/ Zan, and Tessai). He can roflstomp the rest though fairly well except Zenpachi.
Zenpachi and Byakuya have actually fought. Originally Gin stopped them from even drawing their swords in the Soul Society Arc, but they finally do fight during the Arrancar/Mundo Arc. Zaraki had already tanked and beat 5th Espada, he was fighting/tanking the 10th Espada next. Byakuya joins him after Zaraki already got some major hits onto the 10th Espada. They tag team and the 10th espada is downed, slowly bleeding out to death unconsciously. You see the two fight a bit, but you don't see the end of their fight. Afterwards you see two scenes. The first is the 10th espada waking up to his Arrancar dog barking, telling it to shutup then finally dying. The second is both captains walking back in Soul Society with cannon fodder Shinigami greeting them and asking if they need medical attention. Both of them are equally injured and it is implied that the fight between the captains was a stalemate. However as I said before, their fight was after Zaraki had tanked 2 Espada, enough said.
Last edited by TisForTat; October 14, 2013 at 02:42 PM.
I seriously doubt they fought against each other for fun while others were trying to protect SS from Aizen. My take of that scene is that they barely managed to beat Yammy and they were already injured from their previous fights. Not much to go by, actually.
Most of fights are of unknown nature to me. I don't know how well he would fare against the Vaizards or to be more specific, I don't know which one of those can overwhelm him. Not knowing Shinji's Bankai, I think Byakuya's a bad opponent for his Shikai alone. He has an omni-directional power and unless he dies without even being able to comprehend the optical illusion, he might adjust his Bankai in accordance. In the same sense, I'd say Byakuya wouldn't do that good against Rose's disruptive power, and might just be able to keep up with Love or not.
As for others.. Sure, Yoruichi has the speed to outduel him in a Shunpo tag play, but what would she do against his Bankai? Is Shunko enough to beat him? I'd say Soifon would be a more dangerous opponent with her Homonka. Tessai is a complete mystery, so, I won't comment about it, since it basically depends on how much Tessai has in his Kido arsenal that we don't know of. Urahara is perhaps the most difficult opponent for Byakuya to defeat, since they share the same versatile style, yet Urahara has more experience and can intellectually outsmart him with relative ease.
Shinji's Shikai is not the reason why he has a strong advantage, it is more so the fact that he can hollowfy. Ichigo in SS arc turned into a fodder Visored during their fight yet he started to completely kick Byakuya's arse immediately. I say fodder Visored because he doesn't even come close to being on the same level he was after training with the Visored senpais pre-Mundo Arc.
Same application of Hollowfication to the other Visored Captains on top of their Shikai that are actually more relevant than Shinji's. Simply put, Shinji's Shikai is overhyped, Aizen said it well in that it was a far cry from his KS. Bankai would be very interesting though.
Tessai is on par with Yoriuchi in terms using his Zan. It's an unknown factor. Regardless he is just slightly below or on par with Kisuke. Kido is very effective against Byakuya's Shikai and Bankai due to barriers and destructive magic.
Kisuke and Byakuya were both trained under Yoriuchi ironically. Regardless, it seem we can agree that Kisuke would win.
I don't get why the vizards gets held in such high regards only based on being vaizard. So far I am only impressed by.........damn what's this name? Aizens former captain....
I have seen that some people have brought up that the vizards took turns fighting Ichigo in his vizard training, but I would argue that while Byakuya was taken by complete surprise when Ichigo hollowfied, they had the advantage of knowing exactly what was coming. Add to that the fact that Byakuya had been on the verge of finishing Ichigo and had no reason to expect him to be able to move, much less attack and you see it wasn't about Byakuya's strength as much as the element of surprise and the fact that, unlike the vizards, he had no concept of what he was fighting. The vizards were not trying to kill Ichigo, but to control, so they were defending...much easier to do since they were evading, while Byakuya was still trying to counterattack. The whole style of fighting was different in the two cases, so they aren't really a good comparison.
While Shinji certainly would be a tough opponent for Byakuya, I don't see any of the rest being at that level.
On Shinji, Byakuya has a pesky bankai for him. It covers such a large area and all of it is in danger of being hit. I don't know how much he registers when it hits but if he knows what hits his opponent then Shinjis Bankai is kind of.....redundant vs Byakuya.
I don't really get why Shinji is so overrated. Actually compared to other Vaizard Captains his Shikai powers seem the less impressive. Even his overall Shinigami and Hollow powers seem less impressive than either Kensei's, Love's or Rose's. Heck, even Hachi impressed me more than he did.
And well, why Vaizards are put over Byakuya? Maybe because none of them needed even Shikai during the War, while Byakuya stated that he needed Bankai in order to defeat Aes Nodt who didn't even use his Vollstaendig?
Also, we did not even see who the vizards faced. As Sanadan said, they could have been crap fighters, for all we know. You can't conclude anything based on that.
Also I want to counter your argument with my own;
If Byakuya's Shikai is worth noting why did he opt to use his Bankai when finishing off Renji? As we seen his Shikai could do nothing to Renji during their fight.
In his fight with Ichigo, Shikai Ichigo easily overpowered his Shikai with GT.
In his fight with Zommari, with Gokei not killing him, what would Byakuya's Shikai do?
In his brief fight with Yammy, Sky did minor damage, what would his Shikai do?
You stated that Tsukishima overpowered his Shikai. Despite the Fullbringers being fodder. His ability was great but it did not offer him any physical power ups.
And lastly, you argue that it cut through As Nodt's Blut so it can damage high level opponents. Again all evidence to the contrary. It didn't affect Mask. Also when Mask scolds As Nodt, he says "don't let your blut get torn so easily" Implies he allowed it. I take this to mean he was surprised at Byakuya's attack, yet could of strengthened his Blut should he of wanted to. Further evidence, is Byakuya, himself stating, the SR are not opponents you can defeat with just Shikai.
Last edited by Miyagi; October 18, 2013 at 05:02 AM.
As I said, Byakuya wasn't attacking him at all, just getting his petals in between Renji and Mask to protect Renji. And they looked pretty darned significant to me. Blood was erupting from them in good supply.Quote:
See above...and since when does an enemy's bluster count as fact? Many characters misstate, overstate or understate. You can't call that fact, 'just cause he said so.' But, nice try!Quote:
Again, you automatically believe it just because he said that. And maybe with some it's true. But it's not proven, nor known fact. Look at another 'fact' Byakuya and the others stated. They stated that the medallion sealed bankai. That was erroneous, as could be anything characters SAY. It isn't necessarily fact because someone says it. But I do agree that Byakuya could not have DEFEATED As Nodt with shikai. Had he not raised his bankai and gotten shocked that the seal was a stealing device, he wouldn't have lowered his guard and been pierced with the fear thorns so readily. And even if he had, he proved he had the capacity to break free of As Nodt's fear power, by actually doing so, right before being struck with his own bankai. Had Byakuya remained in shikai, he wouldn't have DEFEATED As Nodt, but he would have held out as well as the other captains. The reason Soi Fon, Komamura and Hitsugaya didn't get trashed like Byakuya is because he was the only one shown conclusively being hit with his own power...several times, I might add. If RENJI was not overpowered instantly by As Nodt, despite not being able to hit him, then you can't argue that Byakuya would be. He would have held out for a time, then would have been beat up, like the others, but he would not have lost without actually being hit with his bankai.Quote:
Ah, again you try to act like you know better than Bleach's own creator. Those 'fodder' are being carefully trained by Kukakku and their power wil be important in the war. Fodder? I think not! They were plenty powerful. Otherwise, why were the captains insistent that Ginjo had to die? Why even show up if they were insignificant? The whole thing with the substitute badge suggests they are far from insignificant.Quote:
How many times do you need to be told? That was a b@@@@ slap, not a serious hit. They were knocking Yammy aside so they could beat up on each other. Don't read so much into a non-serious potshot.Quote:
If you paid attention, you would know he did it because Renji refused to back down. He had plenty of means to defeat Renji without bankai, but served it up because Renji defied him. Are you really suggesting that Renji could defeat him, even sans bankais? REALLY?Quote:
That's not actually true. They were roughly even. And Ichigo was being overpowered until he hollowfied. Stop making things up.Quote:
That, in conjunction with Byakuya's other well rounded skills would have defeated Zommari anyway. Byakuya went bankai without bothering with shikai, because, as shown CLEARLY in the manga and even drawn attention to during that part, he pissed Byakuya off by attacking an already incapacitated Rukia, just as Renji pissed him off and earned a bankai shot by being defiant. Byakuya OFTEN uses more power than he needs to (**GANJU**) for emotional reasons. Despite his denial that he is emotionally driven, his actions clearly point to that as his reason for occasional overkill. It fits well with his personality, being one who was, as a child, highly volatile. The volatility is still there. It just comes out in his fighting.Quote:
I have seen a lot of your posts regarding Byakuya, where you mock him as a fighter. You consistently overlook clear evidence that he is one of the more powerful captains and misstate 'evidence' to try to 'prove' your point. Realize that your perspective is just one angle and that others are just as valid. If this thread is truly supposed to be friendly to all points of view, you shouldn't be so intolerant, just because you don't like the character. Again, sorry for jumping in uninvited, but you were getting on my nerves bashing other people's perspectives and sounding like yours was fact.
How do his Hollow powers and Shinigami powers seem less impressive than the others? Please elaborate.
The reason we put some of the Vizards above Byakuya is because we know that they are already strong and on top of that we know Hollowfication gives quite a good boost in abilities. Also add to that the fact that most of them have faced opponents stronger than what Byakuya has gone up against (forget the quincies atm, we know very little about the ranking)
No, Hollow Ichigo stomped Byakuya. Not just slashed, Byakuya was not gong to live had the hollow gone on.Quote:
And how can that not be assumed? Makes sense, considering they fought a being that Byakuya could not keep up with and they did so effortlessly.
Oh and dont forget, Shinji was about to force Grimmjow to release without even using his Shikai...
So because Aizen calls them failed experiments then they are supposed to be weak? The Hollowfication DOES amplify ones abilities.Quote:
So what you are saying is, the Vizard captains were weaker than Ichigo when he was in SS? Ok.
Ichigos power in those instances followed the same protocol. Like we saw in TBTP the Vizards went through similar staged of Hollowfication (aside from the initial Hollowfication when Ichigo was training with Urahara)Quote:
The bottom line is, the Vizard captains handled Ichigo hollowfied and fought stronger opponent(s) than Byakuya did.
They had no idea what was coming. They knew that Ichigos hollow was going to be strong but non of them knew just by how much.Quote:
Hiyori was caught by surprise when she tried to force Ichigo into using Bankai and his hollow stomped her. Later, they brought out that same hollow inorder to help Ichigo control it. The Vizards were going in just as blind as Byakuya was. Hell, Ichigos hollow was becoming more and more complete (in that instance) as the fight progressed.
Byakuya was only going to finish Ichigo off because of the situation Ichigo was in. His body was not responding to him and his inexperience in Bankai was crushing his bones making him slower. It took a lot to happen to Ichigo for Byakuya to finally keep up with him in the end.Quote:
They were fighting for their survival as much as to help Ichigo control his hollow. Shinji did say that if it comes down to it and Ichigo is not victorious, they would have to kill him.Quote:
You do realize that fighting to kill is much easier than trying to defend yourself from something that is trying to kill you right?
Shinji would be a nightmare for Byakuya.Quote:
---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 AM ----------
No he did not, he went Bankai because he believed he needed it to fight NodtQuote:
No, he managed to withstand the effects for a certain time before succumbing to it. He did not break through the fear ability. However, that is not the reason he lost.Quote:
How does one look like they used Volstandig? Please elaborate.Quote:
How did you come to this conclusion? Did you consider the fact that as the fight went on Byakuya did nothing to Nodt in Shikai or the fact that the current Bankai-less captains got wrecked by the SRs?Quote:
Take your pick.
The SR are considered to be captain class or above and the order was to ruin SS. Bach would not let weaklings fight captains when he wanted most if not all of them dead.Quote:
And one other thing, if you are so willing to believe that the others faced crap fighters, why is it so hard for you to believe that Nodt might have been the weakest SR?
Last edited by jaymizzo; October 17, 2013 at 09:59 AM.
Watch 1.05 - 1.45. Byakuya's Shikai doesn't even stand a chance. It breaks through his Shikai and actually wounds Byakuya. It most certainly wasn't even. I think your the one making things up.
Last edited by vanyar; October 17, 2013 at 11:15 AM.
True, I forgot how powerful shinjis shikai was