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Thread: How strong is Byakuya?

  1. #121
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by KungPaoChicken View Post
    Even with all these Shinigami's powering up. The Sternritters have already stolen very powerful bankais that are capable of leveling towns themselves. Ichigo's can't probably be stolen due to the fact that he a cluster of all this BS and totally awesome. But the biggest issue that worries me is when Ichigo fights Bach, Bach has Yamamoto's bankai! Him and Ishida and MAYBE Aizen will need to form a pact together in order to not get instantly fried with the heat of the sun.

    On another note, it'll be one of the coolest fights in history.
    Medallion doesn't work because Ichigo's Bankai is not a Bankai at all, just a Quincy imitation. Then, Ichigo is part Quincy, this shit doesn't work on Quincies, just like Kirge's Jail. And above all, Ichigo is a protagonist and is shit without his Bankai.

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  3. #122
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KungPaoChicken's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Medallion doesn't work because Ichigo's Bankai is not a Bankai at all, just a Quincy imitation. Then, Ichigo is part Quincy, this shit doesn't work on Quincies, just like Kirge's Jail. And above all, Ichigo is a protagonist and is shit without his Bankai.
    Hmm. Oh thats right. I can't believe I forgot that important fact. -_- Either way. It CANT be stolen.

    But just asking, has Ichigo lost his Qunicy Powers at this point? Or are they still in him. This is still bugging me.

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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by KungPaoChicken View Post
    Hmm. Oh thats right. I can't believe I forgot that important fact. -_- Either way. It CANT be stolen.

    But just asking, has Ichigo lost his Qunicy Powers at this point? Or are they still in him. This is still bugging me.
    Why would he? It's in his blood. He can't lose those powers once they awakened. Quincy power "stepped back", letting Ichigo's Shinigami side prevail. By doing so, Ichigo has finally access to his actual power. This little thing we call Tensa Zangetsu never was a bankai. Even Byakuya commented on it and we thought he was spouting nonsense... But Ichigo didn't let his Quincy power just "step back", and he personally put his reiatsu during forging process to create double Zanpakuto. One represents Shinigami/Hollow side, second representing Quincy powers. Now he has full access to his Shinigami side and still has access to Quincy power. Which was always in him and helped him numerous times. Against Kenpachi Quincy side helped. Against Byakuya it was Hollow who helped. It's not like they can just disappear.

  5. #124
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    The whole point of the last bit with nimaiya was about ichigo fully embracing his quincy powers and manifesting them through a zampakuto. I would argue that not only ichigo did not loose his quincy powers but also they are stronger than they have ever been.

    That said, byakuya was not really right about ichigo back then. He thought what ichigo had could not be bankai because it was too small and bankai are usually huge. Its not because he somehow perceived ichigo's quincy powers. Ichigo was actually using his shinigami powers a while back, he simply was not using all of them as the old man suppressed them as much as he could.

  6. #125
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    That said, byakuya was not really right about ichigo back then. He thought what ichigo had could not be bankai because it was too small and bankai are usually huge. Its not because he somehow perceived ichigo's quincy powers. Ichigo was actually using his shinigami powers a while back, he simply was not using all of them as the old man suppressed them as much as he could.
    I never said Byakuya knew it was Quincy imitation. He was right saying "It can't be bankai". And for all we've seen, Ichigo's Zanpakuto is special in many ways. His shikai can't be released, he has one actual attack which is Getsuga Tenshou, which is simple as hell and his bankai has no actual ability, it cloaks Ichigo in reiatsu and boosts his attack and speed. Which is awfully similar to Vollstandig. Of course, it looks different, as OMZangetsu did a damn good job pretending to be a Zanpakuto. Instead of raw reiatsu his robe is made of reiatsu, which only looks differently, but apparently works the same.

    Now that Ichigo got original Zangetsu it's somehow clad in fire and looks entirely different. Did Ichigo really use his Shinigami powers? I'm not sure, so I'll need to look for it, but IIRC even Zangetsu taught Ichigo "Shunpo", saying he has to gather spirit particles under his feet. Which is... Hirenkyaku.

  7. #126
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Crystal Black's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    People still complaining and arguing Byakuya's strength, which is very much debatable. I thought it was mentioned in Bleach "The Dagger" that Byakuya held an prominent strength in the Gotei's hierarchy and depending on the translation was called one of the strongest. And No, lieutenants get no mention in this. That cannot compare to any captain quite honestly, physically or spiritually. Either way Byakuya's power is very recognizable in SS ranks.
    Smiling Devil


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  9. #127
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    People still complaining and arguing Byakuya's strength, which is very much debatable. I thought it was mentioned in Bleach "The Dagger" that Byakuya held an prominent strength in the Gotei's hierarchy and depending on the translation was called one of the strongest. And No, lieutenants get no mention in this. That cannot compare to any captain quite honestly, physically or spiritually. Either way Byakuya's power is very recognizable in SS ranks.
    Yeah, G13 means 12x (LOTS of non-seated officers, 20th seats (Which can be held by 15-20 people at the same time), 19th seats, 18th seats, 17th seats, 16th seats, 15th seats, 14th seats, 13th seats, 12th seats, 11th seats, 10th seats, 9th seats, 8th seats, 7th seats, 6th seat, 5th seat, 4th seat, 3rd seat, VC and captain.) Of course Byakuya's strength is exceptional if we take G13 into account. And of course "captain" is high in G13 hierarchy. Who doubts it? That sentence says only "Byakuya despite being one of the strongest fighters in G13 fell against his enemy". And G13 is everything from non-seated officers to captains. Every VC and captain are "one of the strongest in G13".

    The truth is, Byakuya got trashed by Bankai Ichigo and got totally owned while Hollow went rampage. He could be killed twice without lifting his finger.And Vaizards? ALL (Hachi excluded, he held barrier) of them took care of Bankai Hollowfied Ichigo without their mask, not using their Bankais. VC like Lisa included. They were surprised that Love wanted to put his mask on against Ichigo's Cero. So it's safe to assume they fought Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo with Shikai without their masks. Lisa didn't even use her Shikai. Byakuya's Shikai wasn't even enough to wound Ichigo in Shikai. Knowing Ichigo's power come from Shirosaki, Vaizards fought even stronger Bankai Ichigo then Byakuya did.

  10. #128
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Crystal Black's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Yeah, G13 means 12x (LOTS of non-seated officers, 20th seats (Which can be held by 15-20 people at the same time), 19th seats, 18th seats, 17th seats, 16th seats, 15th seats, 14th seats, 13th seats, 12th seats, 11th seats, 10th seats, 9th seats, 8th seats, 7th seats, 6th seat, 5th seat, 4th seat, 3rd seat, VC and captain.) Of course Byakuya's strength is exceptional if we take G13 into account. And of course "captain" is high in G13 hierarchy. Who doubts it? That sentence says only "Byakuya despite being one of the strongest fighters in G13 fell against his enemy". And G13 is everything from non-seated officers to captains. Every VC and captain are "one of the strongest in G13".
    Fully agreed, but one part, Captains and Vice Captains are the only shinigami that matters in this particular situation. You'll never hear of a seated officer holding his or her own against any relevant foe. Byakuya fell against a very strong and unusually powered enemy. I honestly don't see how many of the captains could deal with this opponents power.

    Quote Quote:
    The truth is, Byakuya got trashed by Bankai Ichigo and got totally owned while Hollow went rampage.
    Not really. Ichigo had the element of surprise on his side. No knowledge of an opponent whose speed and strength increases upon release is very dangerous to anyone, besides the very obvious names. Ichigo had only one chance to truly defeat Byakuya and that was when he first released his bankai in its introduction. Ichigo never really inflicted any deathly wounds on Byakuya or anything. Hollow Ichigo however did. He's no normal case in any type of argument.

    Also Ulquiorra got wrecked as well by this same hollow.

    Quote Quote:
    He could be killed twice without lifting his finger.And Vaizards? ALL (Hachi excluded, he held barrier) of them took care of Bankai Hollowfied Ichigo without their mask, not using their Bankais. VC like Lisa included. They were surprised that Love wanted to put his mask on against Ichigo's Cero. So it's safe to assume they fought Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo with Shikai without their masks. Lisa didn't even use her Shikai. Byakuya's Shikai wasn't even enough to wound Ichigo in Shikai. Knowing Ichigo's power come from Shirosaki, Vaizards fought even stronger Bankai Ichigo then Byakuya did.
    The Vizards are a very special case. They knew the difficulties of hollow powers and by extension, possession. They knew how to handle the situation adequately from experience alone, which I may need to remind you was 100 yrs. They actually never fought against the hollow Byakuya did, but a shell of itself, Ichigo and and Hollow Ichigo was battling in their inner world.
    Smiling Devil


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  12. #129
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Fully agreed, but one part, Captains and Vice Captains are the only shinigami that matters in this particular situation. You'll never hear of a seated officer holding his or her own against any relevant foe. Byakuya fell against a very strong and unusually powered enemy. I honestly don't see how many of the captains could deal with this opponents power.
    NOTHING indicates As Nodt was stronger than ANY other Sternritter. Shunsui fought Sternritter and forced him to use Grimaniel. If SR didn't do it, he would be already dead. Then he made pretty big and deep wound to SRs stomach. Every other captain held his own against Sternritters. Vaizard captains came out of their fights without any serious wounds. Shinji was looking for SRs, but apparently didn't find any. Or he defeated his opponent. His shikai is pretty convenient if he keeps silent. Nothing indicates he lost to SR, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Not really. Ichigo had the element of surprise on his side. No knowledge of an opponent whose speed and strength increases upon release is very dangerous to anyone, besides the very obvious names. Ichigo had only one chance to truly defeat Byakuya and that was when he first released his bankai in its introduction. Ichigo never really inflicted any deathly wounds on Byakuya or anything. Hollow Ichigo however did. He's no normal case in any type of argument.
    The fact he couldn't react to Ichigo remains unchanged. Also, he was caught like that TWICE. It's not like he didn't know of his strength. After saying it was a "fluke" Ichigo had his back and just stood there, not cutting him from behind. The reason Ichigo got slower is his bankai puts a STRAIN on his body. Byakuya himself said he got slower. It's not like Byakuya suddenly could react. When Hollow Ichigo took over (which is the only part crucial to my point, as I compare it to Hollowfied Ichigo against Vaizards), he got taken out in an instant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Also Ulquiorra got wrecked as well by this same hollow.
    Not really. Byakuya fought a form, that wasn't entirely a Hollow. For all we know, Ichigo was fighting with Quincy powers. It seems that when Ichigo's Quincy powers, that posed as Bankai, got wounded and got weaker, his Hollow couldn't be suppresed and leaked. Against Vaizards, he became more and more like a Hollow. And against Ulqiorra he got perfect Hollow form, that could use Sonido and Cero. Byakuya fought Hollow who could use Getsuga. Which is very much like Cero Obscura. Now that we know what Ichigo's powers are, and that Black Getsuga is a Hollow technique, we can say Hollow against Byakuya had to use Zanpakuto to use something like Cero. When he fought against Vaizards, he could shoot Cero without problem. When he fought Ulquiorra, his Cero was much stronger than any GT we ever saw.



    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    The Vizards are a very special case. They knew the difficulties of hollow powers and by extension, possession. They knew how to handle the situation adequately from experience alone, which I may need to remind you was 100 yrs. They actually never fought against the hollow Byakuya did, but a shell of itself, Ichigo and and Hollow Ichigo was battling in their inner world.
    The fact, that Hollow Byakuya fought could talk doesn't mean, that Vaizards fought a shell. The thoughtless form is the strongest. If we were to judge which was more perfect, it'd be the latter. Perfect Hollow that fought Ulqiorra

    1. Didn't talk (just like against Vaizards)
    2. Used Sonido
    3. Used Cero (Just like against Vaizards).

    The Hollow that fought Vaizards was clearly closer to that form and thus, I'm sure he was stronger.

    And even if it wasn't, it was still Bankai Ichigo. Even if that Hollow didn't give much boost to Ichigo's powers (not likely, he finally used his actual powers), they fought it without mask and bankai. Byakuya without Shikai wouldn't last 10 seconds against Bankai Ichigo. Ichigo's GT in shikai could totally overpower Senbonzakura. We never saw even 1/5 of any Vaizards power.

  13. #130
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Crystal Black's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    NOTHING indicates As Nodt was stronger than ANY other Sternritter. Shunsui fought Sternritter and forced him to use Grimaniel. If SR didn't do it, he would be already dead. Then he made pretty big and deep wound to SRs stomach. Every other captain held his own against Sternritters. Vaizard captains came out of their fights without any serious wounds. Shinji was looking for SRs, but apparently didn't find any. Or he defeated his opponent. His shikai is pretty convenient if he keeps silent. Nothing indicates he lost to SR, though.
    A lot indicated As Nodt possessed a power other Stern Ritters did not have. This same power totally made one of the mentally strongest captains falter under pressure. Nothing proves that the Stern Ritter Shunsui fought would be dead from a single strike. Every other Captain may have very well held their own against their enemy. But nothing indicated that they were winning. Shinji is the true sole exception. But we have little to no evidence of what type of Stern Ritter he faced and was he/they as dangerous as some of the others. There is a reason why Byakuya's fight was showcased at the level it was, because of the opponent he faced and his own reputation.


    Quote Quote:
    The fact he couldn't react to Ichigo remains unchanged. Also, he was caught like that TWICE. It's not like he didn't know of his strength. After saying it was a "fluke" Ichigo had his back and just stood there, not cutting him from behind. The reason Ichigo got slower is his bankai puts a STRAIN on his body. Byakuya himself said he got slower. It's not like Byakuya suddenly could react. When Hollow Ichigo took over (which is the only part crucial to my point, as I compare it to Hollowfied Ichigo against Vaizards), he got taken out in an instant.
    Yeah and as well as the element of surprise. Arrancars had knowledge of what Ichigo could do somewhat? Byakuya didn't. How could he have known that the possibility existed for Ichigo's power to increase so tremendously. Ichigo only had one true chance to defeat Byakuya and that was when he had his blade pointed towards his neck. The second time, Byakuya wouldn't have been defeated from that blow. Ichigo got slower after a few exchanges with Byakuya in Senkei. Before that we had nothing presenting anything similar to fatigue or power exertion on Ichigo's be half. Byakuya was reacting before that. He didn't get tooking out either as you say, tanked several Getsuga Tenshou's and a pretty nasty blow across the chest. You're underrating Byakuya's durability.



    Quote Quote:
    Not really. Byakuya fought a form, that wasn't entirely a Hollow.
    Which only strengthen's my argument. It was a shell in which the Vizards help cast, and keep under control. Fighting purely off instinct alone. All they had to do was survive and help Ichigo through the process of overcoming his hollow side and its power.

    Quote Quote:
    For all we know, Ichigo was fighting with Quincy powers. It seems that when Ichigo's Quincy powers, that posed as Bankai, got wounded and got weaker, his Hollow couldn't be suppresed and leaked. Against Vaizards, he became more and more like a Hollow. And against Ulqiorra he got perfect Hollow form, that could use Sonido and Cero. Byakuya fought Hollow who could use Getsuga. Which is very much like Cero Obscura. Now that we know what Ichigo's powers are, and that Black Getsuga is a Hollow technique, we can say Hollow against Byakuya had to use Zanpakuto to use something like Cero. When he fought against Vaizards, he could shoot Cero without problem. When he fought Ulquiorra, his Cero was much stronger than any GT we ever saw.
    His hollow powers were supposedly more dominant through out that arc. It was the very focal point of Ichigo's power progression. Quincy powers could have very well been a part of it but not the main attraction of his power during that time. Ichigo had poor control and feared his own power. Without notice further neglecting a part of his soul (zanpakutou). Your last part is interesting which I may look into deeply later on but, as Ichigo grew so did his power and it's only natural for Shirosaki to gain even greater control of this power. Certain circumstances may have altered differences between the altercations.




    Quote Quote:
    The fact, that Hollow Byakuya fought could talk doesn't mean, that Vaizards fought a shell. The thoughtless form is the strongest. If we were to judge which was more perfect, it'd be the latter. Perfect Hollow that fought Ulqiorra
    The one that Ulquiorra fought was indeed more perfect and advance and mostly due to Ichigo's growth. The one the Vizards faced was a shell because neither Ichigo nor Shirosaki had control. We've seen the inner battle both fought for dominance, Ichigo outlasted him that time.

    Quote Quote:
    1. Didn't talk (just like against Vaizards)
    Probably because he didn't want to, who knows. His existence was just threatened. Which he mad mention of. Another big difference is we actually seen what transpired in the Vizard situation compared to this one.
    Quote Quote:
    2. Used Sonido
    3. Used Cero (Just like against Vaizards).
    Okay, but it could have been because he had grown in power to such a degree, with the helping hand of Ichigo's own growth rate, thus greater control. Ichigo wasn't conscious in neither situation either, making the possibility of possession of Ichigo's body easier.

    Quote Quote:
    The Hollow that fought Vaizards was clearly closer to that form and thus, I'm sure he was stronger.
    Not impossible. But the circumstances was entirely different. Thay knew what to expect from experience alone. This form also gave them problems. Lisa was being trashed before Kensei even intervened. Yes, she got some blows, but thanks to accelerated regeneration, it was useless. Kensei was even being pressured. afterwards we don't know what happened because Ichigo finally broke through and became "King".

    Quote Quote:
    And even if it wasn't, it was still Bankai Ichigo. Even if that Hollow didn't give much boost to Ichigo's powers (not likely, he finally used his actual powers), they fought it without mask and bankai. Byakuya without Shikai wouldn't last 10 seconds against Bankai Ichigo. Ichigo's GT in shikai could totally overpower Senbonzakura. We never saw even 1/5 of any Vaizards power.
    And from what we know and saw, most of them were being pressured or eventually overwhelmed. We don't know how Byakuya would react in that situation. It's partly true if Byakuya fought Ichigo without shikai he'd lose. But which one? Ichigo's GT in shikai overwhelmed Senbonzakura's release, and because of poor Utilization. Byakuya really had no need to chant his shikai's release but did so anyway. His shikai is still versatile enough to defend against it.

    I'll get deep into this, another time.
    Last edited by Crystal Black; August 18, 2013 at 06:28 PM.
    Smiling Devil


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  15. #131
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    A lot indicated As Nodt possessed a power other Stern Ritters did not have. This same power totally made one of the mentally strongest captains falter under pressure. Nothing proves that the Stern Ritter Shunsui fought would be dead from a single strike. Every other Captain may have very well held their own against their enemy. But nothing indicated that they were winning. Shinji is the true sole exception. But we have little to no evidence of what type of Stern Ritter he faced and was he/they as dangerous as some of the others. There is a reason why Byakuya's fight was showcased at the level it was, because of the opponent he faced and his own reputation.
    I'm pretty sure clean cut through the Sternritter, who fights with HUMAN body, crushing his spine would make him pretty dead. Every Sternritter has his UNIQUE power. Saying As Nodt was stronger because he had "Fear" doesn't make sense. R had Roar, Q had Question, Bambietta has her "E". Every Sternritter that was there has an ability. Some are passive, like Overkill's. Some are active all the time, like As Nodt's, and some can be activated, like Kirge's Jail. Maybe even Grimaniel is a sort of ability, that was activated. NOTHING indicates his overall power exceeded ANY other SR.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Yeah and as well as the element of surprise. Arrancars had knowledge of what Ichigo could do somewhat? Byakuya didn't. How could he have known that the possibility existed for Ichigo's power to increase so tremendously. Ichigo only had one true chance to defeat Byakuya and that was when he had his blade pointed towards his neck. The second time, Byakuya wouldn't have been defeated from that blow. Ichigo got slower after a few exchanges with Byakuya in Senkei. Before that we had nothing presenting anything similar to fatigue or power exertion on Ichigo's be half. Byakuya was reacting before that. He didn't get tooking out either as you say, tanked several Getsuga Tenshou's and a pretty nasty blow across the chest. You're underrating Byakuya's durability.
    Maybe capslock will help.

    ELEMENT OF SURPRISE DISAPPEARS AFTER FIRST ATTACK.

    But it's not even necessary.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...63-page-2.html

    Byakuya himself says he CAN'T react.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...63-page-7.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...3-page-17.html

    No element of surprise. Byakuya just can't keep up with him.

    About "strain".

    First, Byakuya's stament
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-16.html

    Second, Hichigo's statement
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...66-page-5.html


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Which only strengthen's my argument. It was a shell in which the Vizards help cast, and keep under control. Fighting purely off instinct alone. All they had to do was survive and help Ichigo through the process of overcoming his hollow side and its power.
    So when Hollow is fighting with instinct, it is good and he is strong, but when he fought Vaizards it made him a shell? Makes sense! They had to survive, but they made few of his limbs flying and weren't hit ONCE without using mask and shikai. And Byakuya? He couldn't even dodge once.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    His hollow powers were supposedly more dominant through out that arc. It was the very focal point of Ichigo's power progression. Quincy powers could have very well been a part of it but not the main attraction of his power during that time. Ichigo had poor control and feared his own power. Without notice further neglecting a part of his soul (zanpakutou). Your last part is interesting which I may look into deeply later on but, as Ichigo grew so did his power and it's only natural for Shirosaki to gain even greater control of this power. Certain circumstances may have altered differences between the altercations.
    Hollow powers dominated only after Ulquiorra made Ichigo a new hole in his body. Hollow powers were leaking, but what we've seen was still a Quincy imitation. OMZangetsu was always Quincy powers. Ichigo didn't really achieve Bankai. He didn't fight his Zanpakuto back then. He fought his Quincy side. Whole Bankai wasn't his Zanpakuto. When Quincy powers were weak enough, the Hollow powers were trying to take over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    The one that Ulquiorra fought was indeed more perfect and advance and mostly due to Ichigo's growth. The one the Vizards faced was a shell because neither Ichigo nor Shirosaki had control. We've seen the inner battle both fought for dominance, Ichigo outlasted him that time.
    And did that "perfect" Hollow that fought Ulquiorra was controlled by Shirosaki or Ichigo? NO. He fought off pure instincts. Why do you say the Hollow against Vaizards was just a shell? because he didn't talk? Neither did "VL" Hollow. And how exactly Hollowfying Shinigami is weaker than Shinigami before Hollowfication? Byakuya in Shikai couldn't handle Ichigo in Shikai. Vaizards could handle Hollow Ichigo in Bankai without shikai or mask. You're saying Byakuya fought stronger Hollow. Bullshit in my opinion but even if that's true, he fought worn out, wounded Hollow Ichigo and Vaizards, at least Lisa, fought fresh, healed, unwounded Hollow Bankai Ichigo. Both had masks. The latter didn't talk and could use Cero. That's the only difference.



    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Probably because he didn't want to, who knows. His existence was just threatened. Which he mad mention of. Another big difference is we actually seen what transpired in the Vizard situation compared to this one.
    Then you can't say the one fighting Vaizards couldn't speak as well. He talked only in inner world. And I don't understand what you meant in lastsentence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Okay, but it could have been because he had grown in power to such a degree, with the helping hand of Ichigo's own growth rate, thus greater control. Ichigo wasn't conscious in neither situation either, making the possibility of possession of Ichigo's body easier.
    Using Sonido instead of Shunpo isn't really a matter of power I think. And using Cero instead of GT is a matter of how much of "Hollow" leaked out and how much he took over. In second and third case, he had complete control over Ichigo. In first case he had partial control and while Ichigo was still there he butted in and used his body, when Ichigo couldn't. Ichigo regained control of a part o his body and tried to rip his mask off, while Hollow told him not to do it. What does it mean? Hollow DIDN'T control Ichigo. They were both in control, Hollow was prevailing for a short while, but it was still Ichigo's body. Hichigo likes to speak about king and a horse. It's like horse just went rampage and started doing what he wanted with king still on him and king couldn't stop him.



    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Not impossible. But the circumstances was entirely different. Thay knew what to expect from experience alone. This form also gave them problems. Lisa was being trashed before Kensei even intervened. Yes, she got some blows, but thanks to accelerated regeneration, it was useless.
    Kensei was even being pressured. afterwards we don't know what happened because Ichigo finally broke through and became "King".
    Kensei wasn't being pushed, he blew his arm off. I think you meant Love. And Love was getting slowly pushed back, he was forced to use Mask. And I'd like to remind, he didn't use his Shikai, that could negate this Cero EASILY.

    And by the way, this thing really suits my point. Ichigo was becoming more and more like a Hollow. That's why he used Cero only at the end of their fight. Ichigo was gradually getting stronger by becoming more like Hollow. So now I'm damn sure, that Hollow Vaizards were fighting was stronger than Hichigo against Byakuya.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    And from what we know and saw, most of them were being pressured or eventually overwhelmed. We don't know how Byakuya would react in that situation. It's partly true if Byakuya fought Ichigo without shikai he'd lose. But which one? Ichigo's GT in shikai overwhelmed Senbonzakura's release, and because of poor Utilization. Byakuya really had no need to chant his shikai's release but did so anyway. His shikai is still versatile enough to defend against it.
    Byakuya used Bankai to crush Ichigo. The truth is, someone prideful as him would go "You're not worth seeing my Bankai". He showed that attitude against Ganju. "My sword is not made to kill such pests". He wouldn't use Bankai to kill Ichigo if he didn't need. He considered using Bankai neccessary. But if he couldn't keep up in Bankai, he'd be owned in Shikai too. It's like... 1000x less blades? Vaizards didn't even use their Shikai. I think we only saw Kensei use it.

  16. #132
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Crystal Black's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I'm pretty sure clean cut through the Sternritter, who fights with HUMAN body, crushing his spine would make him pretty dead. Every Sternritter has his UNIQUE power. Saying As Nodt was stronger because he had "Fear" doesn't make sense. R had Roar, Q had Question, Bambietta has her "E". Every Sternritter that was there has an ability. Some are passive, like Overkill's. Some are active all the time, like As Nodt's, and some can be activated, like Kirge's Jail. Maybe even Grimaniel is a sort of ability, that was activated. NOTHING indicates his overall power exceeded ANY other SR.
    I don't know what you mean by your first sentence. Anyhow. Every SternRitter had a unique power and special ability, but none of them were as dangerous and lethal as "Fear". I never said As Nodt was stronger than any of them(although I did strongly hint at it for some of them). The SternRitter you listed, while possessed a special power were nothing like As Nodt and his Fear ability. We know nothing of many of the SternRitter's overall power, so the comparison is null. Everything else you said here is redundant.

    Quote Quote:
    Maybe capslock will help.

    ELEMENT OF SURPRISE DISAPPEARS AFTER FIRST ATTACK.

    But it's not even necessary.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...63-page-2.html

    Byakuya himself says he CAN'T react.
    Which I never disagreed with.

    Quote Quote:
    Except Ichigo just swatted Senbonzakura Kageyoshi like fireflies, which shocked and surprised Byakuya. Senbonzakura was also stated somewhere to be inescapable. He took his full attention off of him. You can say it was a blitz which I won't argue, but Ichigo failed to follow through with an attack after the blitz, that Byakuya reacted to.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm puzzled as to why you even bring this up. The part of my post that you quoted was relating to Byakuya keeping pace with Ichigo in the beginning portion of their Senkei fight. Which never shows when Ichigo actually started to slow down. We did however see them clash several times with no visible proof of physical exhaustion on Ichigo's behalf.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-14.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-19.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...65-page-4.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...65-page-7.html

    Quote Quote:
    So when Hollow is fighting with instinct, it is good and he is strong, but when he fought Vaizards it made him a shell? Makes sense! They had to survive, but they made few of his limbs flying and weren't hit ONCE without using mask and shikai. And Byakuya? He couldn't even dodge once.
    No, you're clearly misinterpreting my words. I said, "Fighting purely off of instinct alone". That was the form, the Vizards faced. Hollow Ichigo actually displayed tactics compared to that Incarnation. Making a few limbs fly off means nothing, if they ultimately couldn't put the thing down. Byakuya dodged a form that wasn't lacking any form of intellect. Hollows in general are instinctual fighters.


    Quote Quote:
    Hollow powers dominated only after Ulquiorra made Ichigo a new hole in his body. Hollow powers were leaking, but what we've seen was still a Quincy imitation. OMZangetsu was always Quincy powers. Ichigo didn't really achieve Bankai. He didn't fight his Zanpakuto back then. He fought his Quincy side. Whole Bankai wasn't his Zanpakuto. When Quincy powers were weak enough, the Hollow powers were trying to take over.
    Agreed with everything except the bold. Hollow powers were the more dominant side of Ichigo's soul through that time frame. Before we even knew of Bachgetsu or anything in relation to his quincy power. It was the reason why he trained a gained control through the entire arc. No special mention was ever stated about his progression of his supposed "shinigami powers" through that arc, but Hollow mastery was.


    Quote Quote:
    And did that "perfect" Hollow that fought Ulquiorra was controlled by Shirosaki or Ichigo? NO. He fought off pure instincts.
    Okay.

    Quote Quote:
    Why do you say the Hollow against Vaizards was just a shell? because he didn't talk? Neither did "VL" Hollow. And how exactly Hollowfying Shinigami is weaker than Shinigami before Hollowfication? Byakuya in Shikai couldn't handle Ichigo in Shikai. Vaizards could handle Hollow Ichigo in Bankai without shikai or mask. You're saying Byakuya fought stronger Hollow. Bullshit in my opinion but even if that's true, he fought worn out, wounded Hollow Ichigo and Vaizards, at least Lisa, fought fresh, healed, unwounded Hollow Bankai Ichigo. Both had masks. The latter didn't talk and could use Cero. That's the only difference.
    The hollow Ulquiorra fought had no reason to talk. His survival was just threatened. Which brings me back to my point of his hollow side being the more dominant side of his power in that arc. Tensa Zangetsu and Shirosaki were his power and was originally merged as one being. He/They clearly said what Ichigo wants to protect and what they want to protect aren't the same.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...2-page-19.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...33-page-9.html

    I say the version the Vizards fought was a shell because of one reason. Their inner battle. the battle actually took place within a shell of a hollow. Neither side had control. Shinji used something on Ichigo, which I'm not even sure was mentioned in the manga anywhere, I could be wrong.

    Kensei was forced to use shikai I believe;Lisa was gasping for air; Hiyori was almost choked to death by a shikai mask Hichigo; Love was about to use mask to mitigate the damage of cero like how Ichigo did vs Ulquiorra. They landed their fair share of blows, but by no means were any of them in control based on manga evidence. This also says nothing of how Byakuya would handle that situation. His zan is very versatile.

    Quote Quote:
    Then you can't say the one fighting Vaizards couldn't speak as well. He talked only in inner world. And I don't understand what you meant in last sentence.
    Entirely different situations. We witnessed first hand of what happened in the Vizard situation. Shinji used something, rendered Ichigo unconscious, and his hollow power was gradually releasing. The Ulquiorra situation is a bit tricky because We had no idea of what was actually happening in Ichigo's inner world. We do know that he talked to himself when Orihime cried out for his protection. I'll concede this point though.


    Quote Quote:
    Using Sonido instead of Shunpo isn't really a matter of power I think. And using Cero instead of GT is a matter of how much of "Hollow" leaked out and how much he took over. In second and third case, he had complete control over Ichigo.
    Indeed. Notice how much of his hollow powers gain control of his physical form because of their inner battle, which Hichigo was in control of the majority of time.

    Quote Quote:
    In first case he had partial control and while Ichigo was still there he butted in and used his body, when Ichigo couldn't. Ichigo regained control of a part o his body and tried to rip his mask off, while Hollow told him not to do it. What does it mean? Hollow DIDN'T control Ichigo.
    Hollow gained control over Ichigo's body because he was paralyzed by Byakuya in that moment. However Ichigo was still conscious in that fight, against the Vizards he isn't.

    Quote Quote:
    They were both in control, Hollow was prevailing for a short while, but it was still Ichigo's body. Hichigo likes to speak about king and a horse. It's like horse just went rampage and started doing what he wanted with king still on him and king couldn't stop him.
    Pretty much.


    Quote Quote:
    Kensei wasn't being pushed, he blew his arm off. I think you meant Love. And Love was getting slowly pushed back, he was forced to use Mask. And I'd like to remind, he didn't use his Shikai, that could negate this Cero EASILY.
    I replied to this in an earlier part of my post.



    Quote Quote:
    Byakuya used Bankai to crush Ichigo. The truth is, someone prideful as him would go "You're not worth seeing my Bankai". He showed that attitude against Ganju. "My sword is not made to kill such pests". He wouldn't use Bankai to kill Ichigo if he didn't need. He considered using Bankai neccessary. But if he couldn't keep up in Bankai, he'd be owned in Shikai too. It's like... 1000x less blades? Vaizards didn't even use their Shikai. I think we only saw Kensei use it.
    If you say so.
    Last edited by Crystal Black; August 19, 2013 at 07:47 PM.
    Smiling Devil


  17. #133
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    I don't know what you mean by your first sentence. Anyhow. Every SternRitter had a unique power and special ability, but none of them were as dangerous and lethal as "Fear". I never said As Nodt was stronger than any of them(although I did strongly hint at it for some of them). The SternRitter you listed, while possessed a special power were nothing like As Nodt and his Fear ability. We know nothing of many of the SternRitter's overall power, so the comparison is null. Everything else you said here is redundant.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-13.html

    That's what first sentence refers to. Shunsui was the only person to force his opponent to use any boost. And they didn't play any of their games from what we've seen.

    SRs strength is dependant on individual ability. All SR are being given Juha's blood. Nothing indicates, that Juha is making his favourites. They have unique abilities, but their base abilities should be roughly at the same level. Nothing indicates, that fear is strong ability, nor that it's stronger than anything else. If As Nodt fought Kenpachi, this ability would be worth shit. Against Komamura it'd be most likely also useless. It worked on Byakuya, okay. If not for ability, Shunsui would have killed his opponent. And I'm pretty sure Byakuya wouldn't scratch As Nodt with Shikai, even if he didn't use his ability. He couldn't even cut him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Except Ichigo just swatted Senbonzakura Kageyoshi like fireflies, which shocked and surprised Byakuya. Senbonzakura was also stated somewhere to be inescapable. He took his full attention off of him. You can say it was a blitz which I won't argue, but Ichigo failed to follow through with an attack after the blitz, that Byakuya reacted to.
    He payed full attention to Ichigo, he thought he caught him, but he not only cut all of them, but speedblitzed him. Byakuya reacted because he started talking (Is this a fluke too?) and waited with attack. Byakuya reacted but didn't avoid injury.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    I'm puzzled as to why you even bring this up. The part of my post that you quoted was relating to Byakuya keeping pace with Ichigo in the beginning portion of their Senkei fight. Which never shows when Ichigo actually started to slow down. We did however see them clash several times with no visible proof of physical exhaustion on Ichigo's behalf.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-14.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-19.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...65-page-4.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...65-page-7.html
    What you see there is not lack of fatigue but resolve and determination. I brought it up to show you, that Byakuya keeping up later is not a proof, because he could keep up only because Ichigo slowed down. If you want to bring facial expressions, in first panel when Ichigo asked "speed that has fallen is... mine?" he was panting. Thus, he WAS exhausted. But bringing it up is pointless. We already have statements, that Ichigo was slowing down and cause.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    No, you're clearly misinterpreting my words. I said, "Fighting purely off of instinct alone". That was the form, the Vizards faced. Hollow Ichigo actually displayed tactics compared to that Incarnation. Making a few limbs fly off means nothing, if they ultimately couldn't put the thing down. Byakuya dodged a form that wasn't lacking any form of intellect. Hollows in general are instinctual fighters.
    They couldn't put it down, it had instant regeneration and it became more and more like Hollow as his limbs were falling off. That "instinct" that you speak of is one the reasons that I'm pretty sure Vaizards fought stronger opponent. Hollow tried to take over Ichigo to show him how to use Bankai. It's only logical Ichigo was still there, Hollow DID NOT take control. Ichigo DOES NOT remember events that are taking place when Hollow completely takes over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Agreed with everything except the bold. Hollow powers were the more dominant side of Ichigo's soul through that time frame. Before we even knew of Bachgetsu or anything in relation to his quincy power. It was the reason why he trained a gained control through the entire arc. No special mention was ever stated about his progression of his supposed "shinigami powers" through that arc, but Hollow mastery was.
    The fact he had his Bankai means Quincy powers were on top. When Quincy side fails in suppressing Ichigo's Hollow, Hollow takes over. Hichigo said so himself. When Ichigo's powers are getting weaker, he tries to take over.



    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    The hollow Ulquiorra fought had no reason to talk. His survival was just threatened. Which brings me back to my point of his hollow side being the more dominant side of his power in that arc. Tensa Zangetsu and Shirosaki were his power and was originally merged as one being. He/They clearly said what Ichigo wants to protect and what they want to protect aren't the same.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...2-page-19.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...33-page-9.html

    I say the version the Vizards fought was a shell because of one reason. Their inner battle. the battle actually took place within a shell of a hollow. Neither side had control. Shinji used something on Ichigo, which I'm not even sure was mentioned in the manga anywhere, I could be wrong.
    And Ichigo has absolutely no recollection of events from back then. Saying "he had no reason because his existence is threatened" is but an excuse. He was clearly superior and didn't fell threatened by Ulquiorra. He could trash him any given time of a day. Hollow powers always were and will be just and addition. Convenient power-up. Ichigo doesn't access those powers all the time. If they were the core of his powers back then he would have turned into Hollow. He uses Hollow when he needs it. Thus, the core of his power has to be different. He can't possibly be using Hollow powers just to get huge power-up by accessing Hollow powers and getting mask, that he gets by accessing Hollow powers, but not while using Hollow powers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Kensei was forced to use shikai I believe;Lisa was gasping for air; Hiyori was almost choked to death by a shikai mask Hichigo; Love was about to use mask to mitigate the damage of cero like how Ichigo did vs Ulquiorra. They landed their fair share of blows, but by no means were any of them in control based on manga evidence. This also says nothing of how Byakuya would handle that situation. His zan is very versatile.
    Kensei was forced? Did he even wait? He elbow'd him, said his name and boom! Of course Lisa would be tired, she had to fight for 10 minutes with Bankai Ichigo+Hollow (the amount of additional power is debatable, as you don't believe Hollow against Byakuya was weaker). If you asked any captain of G13 to fight Banki Ichigo without bankai they'd call you nuts. Well, seniors and Yamaji excluded.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Entirely different situations. We witnessed first hand of what happened in the Vizard situation. Shinji used something, rendered Ichigo unconscious, and his hollow power was gradually releasing. The Ulquiorra situation is a bit tricky because We had no idea of what was actually happening in Ichigo's inner world. We do know that he talked to himself when Orihime cried out for his protection. I'll concede this point though.
    Ichigo lost control and was but a part of his soul, a horse, Hollow being a King.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Indeed. Notice how much of his hollow powers gain control of his physical form because of their inner battle, which Hichigo was in control of the majority of time.
    Of course. The weaker Ichigo gets, the easier it is for Hollow to take control. More Hollow= more power. That's why I'm sure Vaizards fought entity stronger than Bankai Ichigo without their Shikais.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Black View Post
    Hollow gained control over Ichigo's body because he was paralyzed by Byakuya in that moment. However Ichigo was still conscious in that fight, against the Vizards he isn't.
    I actually wrote that, didn't I? Against Byakuya Ichigo was still concious, so Hollow didn't really take over his body. Thus, power-up shouldn't be significant. Hollow powers are his real powers. Hollow takes over Ichigo's body, in which Quincy powers reside. Any Hollow interference makes Ichigo stronger.

    PS. You got tired at the end of replying to my post, didn't you? I know it's tiring replying to tens of quotes, sorry. :P

  18. #134
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    SRs strength is dependant on individual ability. All SR are being given Juha's blood. Nothing indicates, that Juha is making his favourites. They have unique abilities, but their base abilities should be roughly at the same level. Nothing indicates, that fear is strong ability, nor that it's stronger than anything else. If As Nodt fought Kenpachi, this ability would be worth shit. Against Komamura it'd be most likely also useless. It worked on Byakuya, okay. If not for ability, Shunsui would have killed his opponent. And I'm pretty sure Byakuya wouldn't scratch As Nodt with Shikai, even if he didn't use his ability. He couldn't even cut him.
    Ahem...

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/496/7

    What was that you said??? Byakuya couldn't do what? Byakuya was fine in shikai and didn't begin to lose until he went bankai to test the mechanism that the shinigamis thought was being used to 'seal' bankai.

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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    Ahem...

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/496/7

    What was that you said??? Byakuya couldn't do what? Byakuya was fine in shikai and didn't begin to lose until he went bankai to test the mechanism that the shinigamis thought was being used to 'seal' bankai.
    Yeah, just like As Nodt let his Blut get torn to test Shinigamis strength. Page before he saw those blades and just looked at his hand. No big deal. Also, as he was cutting through Squad Members, he probably had Blut Arterie on. After that, when the actual fight started, he didn't even scratch him. He even cut his torso, but his blade couldn't penetrate As Nodt.

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