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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
The whole point of the last bit with nimaiya was about ichigo fully embracing his quincy powers and manifesting them through a zampakuto. I would argue that not only ichigo did not loose his quincy powers but also they are stronger than they have ever been.
That said, byakuya was not really right about ichigo back then. He thought what ichigo had could not be bankai because it was too small and bankai are usually huge. Its not because he somehow perceived ichigo's quincy powers. Ichigo was actually using his shinigami powers a while back, he simply was not using all of them as the old man suppressed them as much as he could.
Now that Ichigo got original Zangetsu it's somehow clad in fire and looks entirely different. Did Ichigo really use his Shinigami powers? I'm not sure, so I'll need to look for it, but IIRC even Zangetsu taught Ichigo "Shunpo", saying he has to gather spirit particles under his feet. Which is... Hirenkyaku.
People still complaining and arguing Byakuya's strength, which is very much debatable. I thought it was mentioned in Bleach "The Dagger" that Byakuya held an prominent strength in the Gotei's hierarchy and depending on the translation was called one of the strongest. And No, lieutenants get no mention in this. That cannot compare to any captain quite honestly, physically or spiritually. Either way Byakuya's power is very recognizable in SS ranks.
The truth is, Byakuya got trashed by Bankai Ichigo and got totally owned while Hollow went rampage. He could be killed twice without lifting his finger.And Vaizards? ALL (Hachi excluded, he held barrier) of them took care of Bankai Hollowfied Ichigo without their mask, not using their Bankais. VC like Lisa included. They were surprised that Love wanted to put his mask on against Ichigo's Cero. So it's safe to assume they fought Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo with Shikai without their masks. Lisa didn't even use her Shikai. Byakuya's Shikai wasn't even enough to wound Ichigo in Shikai. Knowing Ichigo's power come from Shirosaki, Vaizards fought even stronger Bankai Ichigo then Byakuya did.
Not really. Ichigo had the element of surprise on his side. No knowledge of an opponent whose speed and strength increases upon release is very dangerous to anyone, besides the very obvious names. Ichigo had only one chance to truly defeat Byakuya and that was when he first released his bankai in its introduction. Ichigo never really inflicted any deathly wounds on Byakuya or anything. Hollow Ichigo however did. He's no normal case in any type of argument.Quote:
Also Ulquiorra got wrecked as well by this same hollow.
The Vizards are a very special case. They knew the difficulties of hollow powers and by extension, possession. They knew how to handle the situation adequately from experience alone, which I may need to remind you was 100 yrs. They actually never fought against the hollow Byakuya did, but a shell of itself, Ichigo and and Hollow Ichigo was battling in their inner world.Quote:
1. Didn't talk (just like against Vaizards)
2. Used Sonido
3. Used Cero (Just like against Vaizards).
The Hollow that fought Vaizards was clearly closer to that form and thus, I'm sure he was stronger.
And even if it wasn't, it was still Bankai Ichigo. Even if that Hollow didn't give much boost to Ichigo's powers (not likely, he finally used his actual powers), they fought it without mask and bankai. Byakuya without Shikai wouldn't last 10 seconds against Bankai Ichigo. Ichigo's GT in shikai could totally overpower Senbonzakura. We never saw even 1/5 of any Vaizards power.
Yeah and as well as the element of surprise. Arrancars had knowledge of what Ichigo could do somewhat? Byakuya didn't. How could he have known that the possibility existed for Ichigo's power to increase so tremendously. Ichigo only had one true chance to defeat Byakuya and that was when he had his blade pointed towards his neck. The second time, Byakuya wouldn't have been defeated from that blow. Ichigo got slower after a few exchanges with Byakuya in Senkei. Before that we had nothing presenting anything similar to fatigue or power exertion on Ichigo's be half. Byakuya was reacting before that. He didn't get tooking out either as you say, tanked several Getsuga Tenshou's and a pretty nasty blow across the chest. You're underrating Byakuya's durability.Quote:
Which only strengthen's my argument. It was a shell in which the Vizards help cast, and keep under control. Fighting purely off instinct alone. All they had to do was survive and help Ichigo through the process of overcoming his hollow side and its power.Quote:
His hollow powers were supposedly more dominant through out that arc. It was the very focal point of Ichigo's power progression. Quincy powers could have very well been a part of it but not the main attraction of his power during that time. Ichigo had poor control and feared his own power. Without notice further neglecting a part of his soul (zanpakutou). Your last part is interesting which I may look into deeply later on but, as Ichigo grew so did his power and it's only natural for Shirosaki to gain even greater control of this power. Certain circumstances may have altered differences between the altercations.Quote:
The one that Ulquiorra fought was indeed more perfect and advance and mostly due to Ichigo's growth. The one the Vizards faced was a shell because neither Ichigo nor Shirosaki had control. We've seen the inner battle both fought for dominance, Ichigo outlasted him that time.Quote:
Probably because he didn't want to, who knows. His existence was just threatened. Which he mad mention of. Another big difference is we actually seen what transpired in the Vizard situation compared to this one.Quote:
Okay, but it could have been because he had grown in power to such a degree, with the helping hand of Ichigo's own growth rate, thus greater control. Ichigo wasn't conscious in neither situation either, making the possibility of possession of Ichigo's body easier.Quote:
Not impossible. But the circumstances was entirely different. Thay knew what to expect from experience alone. This form also gave them problems. Lisa was being trashed before Kensei even intervened. Yes, she got some blows, but thanks to accelerated regeneration, it was useless. Kensei was even being pressured. afterwards we don't know what happened because Ichigo finally broke through and became "King".Quote:
And from what we know and saw, most of them were being pressured or eventually overwhelmed. We don't know how Byakuya would react in that situation. It's partly true if Byakuya fought Ichigo without shikai he'd lose. But which one? Ichigo's GT in shikai overwhelmed Senbonzakura's release, and because of poor Utilization. Byakuya really had no need to chant his shikai's release but did so anyway. His shikai is still versatile enough to defend against it.Quote:
I'll get deep into this, another time.
Last edited by Crystal Black; August 18, 2013 at 06:28 PM.
ELEMENT OF SURPRISE DISAPPEARS AFTER FIRST ATTACK.
But it's not even necessary.
Byakuya himself says he CAN'T react.
No element of surprise. Byakuya just can't keep up with him.
First, Byakuya's stament
Second, Hichigo's statement
And by the way, this thing really suits my point. Ichigo was becoming more and more like a Hollow. That's why he used Cero only at the end of their fight. Ichigo was gradually getting stronger by becoming more like Hollow. So now I'm damn sure, that Hollow Vaizards were fighting was stronger than Hichigo against Byakuya.
Which I never disagreed with.Quote:
Except Ichigo just swatted Senbonzakura Kageyoshi like fireflies, which shocked and surprised Byakuya. Senbonzakura was also stated somewhere to be inescapable. He took his full attention off of him. You can say it was a blitz which I won't argue, but Ichigo failed to follow through with an attack after the blitz, that Byakuya reacted to.Quote:
I'm puzzled as to why you even bring this up. The part of my post that you quoted was relating to Byakuya keeping pace with Ichigo in the beginning portion of their Senkei fight. Which never shows when Ichigo actually started to slow down. We did however see them clash several times with no visible proof of physical exhaustion on Ichigo's behalf.Quote:
No, you're clearly misinterpreting my words. I said, "Fighting purely off of instinct alone". That was the form, the Vizards faced. Hollow Ichigo actually displayed tactics compared to that Incarnation. Making a few limbs fly off means nothing, if they ultimately couldn't put the thing down. Byakuya dodged a form that wasn't lacking any form of intellect. Hollows in general are instinctual fighters.Quote:
Agreed with everything except the bold. Hollow powers were the more dominant side of Ichigo's soul through that time frame. Before we even knew of Bachgetsu or anything in relation to his quincy power. It was the reason why he trained a gained control through the entire arc. No special mention was ever stated about his progression of his supposed "shinigami powers" through that arc, but Hollow mastery was.Quote:
The hollow Ulquiorra fought had no reason to talk. His survival was just threatened. Which brings me back to my point of his hollow side being the more dominant side of his power in that arc. Tensa Zangetsu and Shirosaki were his power and was originally merged as one being. He/They clearly said what Ichigo wants to protect and what they want to protect aren't the same.Quote:
I say the version the Vizards fought was a shell because of one reason. Their inner battle. the battle actually took place within a shell of a hollow. Neither side had control. Shinji used something on Ichigo, which I'm not even sure was mentioned in the manga anywhere, I could be wrong.
Kensei was forced to use shikai I believe;Lisa was gasping for air; Hiyori was almost choked to death by a shikai mask Hichigo; Love was about to use mask to mitigate the damage of cero like how Ichigo did vs Ulquiorra. They landed their fair share of blows, but by no means were any of them in control based on manga evidence. This also says nothing of how Byakuya would handle that situation. His zan is very versatile.
Entirely different situations. We witnessed first hand of what happened in the Vizard situation. Shinji used something, rendered Ichigo unconscious, and his hollow power was gradually releasing. The Ulquiorra situation is a bit tricky because We had no idea of what was actually happening in Ichigo's inner world. We do know that he talked to himself when Orihime cried out for his protection. I'll concede this point though.Quote:
Indeed. Notice how much of his hollow powers gain control of his physical form because of their inner battle, which Hichigo was in control of the majority of time.Quote:
Hollow gained control over Ichigo's body because he was paralyzed by Byakuya in that moment. However Ichigo was still conscious in that fight, against the Vizards he isn't.Quote:
I replied to this in an earlier part of my post.Quote:
If you say so.Quote:
Last edited by Crystal Black; August 19, 2013 at 07:47 PM.
That's what first sentence refers to. Shunsui was the only person to force his opponent to use any boost. And they didn't play any of their games from what we've seen.
SRs strength is dependant on individual ability. All SR are being given Juha's blood. Nothing indicates, that Juha is making his favourites. They have unique abilities, but their base abilities should be roughly at the same level. Nothing indicates, that fear is strong ability, nor that it's stronger than anything else. If As Nodt fought Kenpachi, this ability would be worth shit. Against Komamura it'd be most likely also useless. It worked on Byakuya, okay. If not for ability, Shunsui would have killed his opponent. And I'm pretty sure Byakuya wouldn't scratch As Nodt with Shikai, even if he didn't use his ability. He couldn't even cut him.
PS. You got tired at the end of replying to my post, didn't you? I know it's tiring replying to tens of quotes, sorry. :P
What was that you said??? Byakuya couldn't do what? Byakuya was fine in shikai and didn't begin to lose until he went bankai to test the mechanism that the shinigamis thought was being used to 'seal' bankai.