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Thread: How strong is Byakuya?

  1. #136
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Yeah, just like As Nodt let his Blut get torn to test Shinigamis strength. Page before he saw those blades and just looked at his hand. No big deal. Also, as he was cutting through Squad Members, he probably had Blut Arterie on. After that, when the actual fight started, he didn't even scratch him. He even cut his torso, but his blade couldn't penetrate As Nodt.
    You must not read expressions well, nor do you read the text. The look on As Nodt's face was definitely surprise, as in "Dang! He actually cut me!" And the guy I refer to as 'Big Clown Boy' clearly said he shouldn't let his blut get torn so easily, indicating he was using blut. Please, stop making silly comments like that, which are so easily disproven by actually reading the manga.

    The 'fight' started as soon as the first blow was dealt, and Byakuya's not being able to hit him was because he had been infected with a power that would affect ANYONE on an instinctual level...meaning any other captain would not have beaten As Nodt. Even Yamamoto, who had no reason to hold back, did not kill As Nodt and Bazzby when he struck them. And he was ticked off about Sasakibe, so he would have been hitting them without holding back as he did with the Tres Bestias.
    Last edited by Firebird0ne; August 20, 2013 at 12:48 PM.

  2. #137
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    You must not read expressions well, nor do you read the text. The look on As Nodt's face was definitely surprise, as in "Dang! He actually cut me!" And the guy I refer to as 'Big Clown Boy' clearly said he shouldn't let his blut get torn so easily, indicating he was using blut. Please, stop making silly comments like that, which are so easily disproven by actually reading the manga.
    Wow, kiddo changed his attitude and way of talking. Definitely got more cocky.

    Yes, that was a surprise, saying "That shit can actually cut?". The expression page before was "What the hell are those flying shits?" Given no information on abilities it's not even strange he was surprised. Also, do I have to remind you, that Blut DOES NOT mean Blut Vene? Blut is nothing else than BLOOD that flows in their veins. So Luchador's (Seriously, Big Clown boy? Are you blind or do you have clown complex?) comment means anything else than "Why do you let yourself be cut so easily?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    The 'fight' started as soon as the first blow was dealt, and Byakuya's not being able to hit him was because he had been infected with a power that would affect ANYONE on an instinctual level...meaning any other captain would not have beaten As Nodt. Even Yamamoto, who had no reason to hold back, did not kill As Nodt and Bazzby when he struck them. And he was ticked off about Sasakibe, so he would have been hitting them without holding back as he did with the Tres Bestias.
    Omfg. Here we go again. Fear is unvincible ability because it got Byakuya. I wonder why As Nodt isn't Juha's right hand or even Juha himself! Even Yamaji couldn't kill him! You see... There were 2 SRs with As Nodt. And they didn't die as well. And they were opponents of other captains, that are PERFECTLY fine. Yamaji doesn't like killing little shits, as he showed against Tres Bestias. As Nodt surviving doesn't mean he is strong. It means he and his 2 buddies, that couldn't kill their opponents and rushed to Yamaji, switched on their Blut and managed to survive. From 3 SRs out there only As Nodt managed to beat his opponent. It's not really strange, Byakuya is one of weaker captains out there, who heavily relies on his Bankai. He goes Bankai as often as Shunsui goes Shikai. His feats are not enough to make him stronger than any Vaizard captain in Shikai. Struggles against #7, when Hitsugaya can one-shot #3, VC of Kido Corps takes care of #2, Love and rose can tank Stark's strongest technique and Shunsui finishing him off with his Shikai. Seriously, Byakuya is just ridicoulously weak compared to others. From current captains he is maybe eighth in power? He is maybe stronger than Soifon, Mayuri and Komamura. Hitsugaya's feats are far better. Any senior captain's feats are better than Byakuya's. His reiatsu is roughly equal to patched Kenpachi. Kenpachi's raw reiatsu could scare Ichigo. He didn't even flinch when Byakuya purposefully released reiatsu his way. Any Vaizard fare better against Bankai Ichigo, even Hollowfied. Man, what am I even saying? Byakuya didn't "fare" at all against Bankai Ichigo when he Hollowfied. Vaizards are far superior to him. Who's left? Mayuri, Komamura and Soifon? Depends on ability and circumstances, I'm not sure if Byakuya can handle Mayuri's poison or Soifon's speed. He's versatile, but his strength is completely mediocre.

    PS. And please, don't try to act like me, you fail big time. xD
    Last edited by Duniak; August 20, 2013 at 01:54 PM.

  3. #138
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Wow, kiddo changed his attitude and way of talking. Definitely got more cocky.

    Yes, that was a surprise, saying "That shit can actually cut?". The expression page before was "What the hell are those flying shits?" Given no information on abilities it's not even strange he was surprised. Also, do I have to remind you, that Blut DOES NOT mean Blut Vene? Blut is nothing else than BLOOD that flows in their veins. So Luchador's (Seriously, Big Clown boy? Are you blind or do you have clown complex?) comment means anything else than "Why do you let yourself be cut so easily?"



    Omfg. Here we go again. Fear is unvincible ability because it got Byakuya. I wonder why As Nodt isn't Juha's right hand or even Juha himself! Even Yamaji couldn't kill him! You see... There were 2 SRs with As Nodt. And they didn't die as well. And they were opponents of other captains, that are PERFECTLY fine. Yamaji doesn't like killing little shits, as he showed against Tres Bestias. As Nodt surviving doesn't mean he is strong. It means he and his 2 buddies, that couldn't kill their opponents and rushed to Yamaji, switched on their Blut and managed to survive. From 3 SRs out there only As Nodt managed to beat his opponent. It's not really strange, Byakuya is one of weaker captains out there, who heavily relies on his Bankai. He goes Bankai as often as Shunsui goes Shikai. His feats are not enough to make him stronger than any Vaizard captain in Shikai. Struggles against #7, when Hitsugaya can one-shot #3, VC of Kido Corps takes care of #2, Love and rose can tank Stark's strongest technique and Shunsui finishing him off with his Shikai. Seriously, Byakuya is just ridicoulously weak compared to others. From current captains he is maybe eighth in power? He is maybe stronger than Soifon, Mayuri and Komamura. Hitsugaya's feats are far better. Any senior captain's feats are better than Byakuya's. His reiatsu is roughly equal to patched Kenpachi. Kenpachi's raw reiatsu could scare Ichigo. He didn't even flinch when Byakuya purposefully released reiatsu his way. Any Vaizard fare better against Bankai Ichigo, even Hollowfied. Man, what am I even saying? Byakuya didn't "fare" at all against Bankai Ichigo when he Hollowfied. Vaizards are far superior to him. Who's left? Mayuri, Komamura and Soifon? Depends on ability and circumstances, I'm not sure if Byakuya can handle Mayuri's poison or Soifon's speed. He's versatile, but his strength is completely mediocre.

    PS. And please, don't try to act like me, you fail big time. xD
    I stopped reading your post after you started using foul language (except for the PS, which made me laugh). And for your info? I wouldn't want to act like you. You offend nearly everyone you speak to on this site. If you will amend your post to exclude poor language and juvenile insults, I will read and respond. Otherwise, if you insist on being nasty, this is ignored.

    PS Be sure to check your facts and provide links to show what you say. If you are going to make crazy claims as to characters' strengths or weaknesses, you should back them up with proof, if you want to be taken seriously.

  4. #139
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Can we not just conclude that Byakuya is one of the weaker Captains?

    He has shown nothing that puts him up there with the Visored or the senior Captains.

  5. #140
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by vanyar View Post
    Can we not just conclude that Byakuya is one of the weaker Captains?

    He has shown nothing that puts him up there with the Visored or the senior Captains.
    To the contrary, he has shown plenty of strength over the course of the manga. It is rather that the vizards and senior captains have not shown much to compare that lends to people wrongfully concluding he is weaker, when there is no evidence that proves any such thing. It is all one opinion against another because Byakuya has been shown in more fights and using more abilities. One can not show where the senior captains or vizards are more powerful because there's no evidence of that. It is not stated in the dialogue and it is not shown in the depictions. You can't make such a bold conclusion until more is shown to back it up.

    But I can happily give examples of the EVIDENCE of Byakuya's strength.

    1. Renji is captain level, though still a vice captain, yet here is his reaction to Byakuya's spiritual pressure. Maybe Zaraki is shown using this level of pressure, but the other captains, to my knowledge, aren't shown having such a strong effect on other officers.

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-594-7/b...apter-140.html

    2. Byakuya is the leader of the most powerful clan, and is the most powerful leader in the clan's history.

    3. I have pointed this out before, but I'll do it again, because it is necessary. The Dagger specifically says that Byakuya is a prominent power and was still brought down. And as usual, he is mentioned in the same breath as Zaraki. To be prominent means to stand out among one's peers...that is people of the SAME RANK. That means that he is one of the more powerful captains.

    4. Byakuya is constantly teased to fight with Kenpachi. Kenpachi doesn't waste his time with weaklings.

    This is how he deals with a weakling...no words, just action. One hit.

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-752-8/b...apter-298.html

    That means that he respects Byakuya's powers. He teases Ichigo to fight as well. This behavior clearly states that Zaraki views Byakuya as a WORTHY OPPONENT. He wouldn't do that if Byakuya was much weaker than him. So, at least before the SR attack, the two were roughly equal. And they could be again, depending on what happens to Byakuya in the spirit realm.

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-39731-2...apter-382.html

    5. Byakuya has a fully developed, well trained multi-level bankai. The only other character who has been shown to wield such a well developed bankai is Yamamoto. Byakuya is not as powerful as him, but again, the fact that it has multiple applications is evidence of his power.

    6. As strange as it may sound, Byakuya's fully shown defeat by As Nodt is actually proof of his ranking as one of the most powerful captains. Kubo wanted to show a very powerful captain being defeated by a powerful bankai. He wanted shock value, which he created in the scariest Bleach episode I ever read, Hear, Fear Here. Byakuya manages to cut As Nodt.

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/496/7

    He does fall victim to As Nodt's fear ability, but As Nodt, himself, points out that it isn't the kind of fear that can be fended off, but fear that everyone has. Had another captain faced As Nodt, he or she would have been equally challenged as Byakuya was. Byakuya also resists and overcomes the 'fear' ability.

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/501/8
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/501/15

    And in the end, after the 'fear' ability fails to overwhelm Byakuya, As Nodt does not rely on his own power to defeat Byakuya, suggesting that Byakuya's bankai is superior to his own released power.

    Byakuya's fall is shocking, impressive, even frightening, because he is viewed as one of the most powerful captains. And to have Yamamoto, Zaraki and Byakuya taken down together is enough to rock the Gotei 13. That wouldn't happen if Byakuya was one of the weaker captains.

    Here are some parting thoughts from Byakuya's past opponents.

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-510-1/b...hapter-56.html
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-597-13/...apter-143.html
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-631-6/b...apter-177.html (Entry wound near the heart and out the back after already fighting Ichigo, and he lived...Fast and durable!)
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-755-23/...apter-301.html
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/472/18

    These do not suggest a weaker captain. All of the evidence in his prior battles distinguish Byakuya as a powerful and experienced fighter with carefully honed skills. And I still see people making wild claims that other captains are more powerful without providing any pages of manga that suggest any such thing. If there's evidence that Byakuya is not one of the stronger captains, then bring it on! I don't care about people arguing with my evidence. If I'm wrong, provide evidence of what you are saying. Don't just argue with the facts that I have presented. Argue well, and I just might have to give some ground here.

  6. #141
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    I stopped reading your post after you started using foul language (except for the PS, which made me laugh). And for your info? I wouldn't want to act like you. You offend nearly everyone you speak to on this site. If you will amend your post to exclude poor language and juvenile insults, I will read and respond. Otherwise, if you insist on being nasty, this is ignored.

    PS Be sure to check your facts and provide links to show what you say. If you are going to make crazy claims as to characters' strengths or weaknesses, you should back them up with proof, if you want to be taken seriously.
    It is actually funny how you think you'll hurt me by ignoring my post. Everytime I write about Byakuya I pray you won't appear and respond, as discussions with you tend to be boring and pointless. Because everyone knows Byakuya being a noble means he is stronger than ANYONE and Kenpachi can't hope to compare because he is just a damn kid that stole his sword from dead shinigami. And I'm strangely convinced you did read my post. Otherwise I'd think I wasted precious 2 minutes of my life when one sentence was all it took. I think I should say "Thank you".

    PS. I can provide link to everything I've said. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it's you who never proved anything to anyone about Byakuya. You always show that he is strong and why, but nothing that'd prove him stronger than other captains. That's why noone wants to discuss anything with you concerning Byakuya. When someone says Kenpachi can own Byakuya you pop up saying "BYAKUYA IS A NOBLE AND THE STRONGEST HEAD IN HISTORY!", like it was any proof that Kenpachi is weaker than him. All you ever proved is Byakuya is strong. But all captains and Vaizards ARE strong, so in the end you never proved anything. And that's why people like me never take you seriously, just wishing you won't try to discuss this topic for the 100th time and go away.


    @EDIT: Damn, I was late. I'm left speechless hahahhaha. You actually took your time showing how strong he is again? You know you keep on saying the same things again, right? All things which were ridiculed by many people here and countered, while you didn't bother to do anything else then show your panels. I'm sure you already know them by heart so you can write them down in one go without thinking much.

    And you do realize, that you, once again, showed Byakuya is strong, NOT that he is stronger than others, right?
    Last edited by Duniak; August 20, 2013 at 06:27 PM.

  7. #142
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    It is actually funny how you think you'll hurt me by ignoring my post. Everytime I write about Byakuya I pray you won't appear and respond, as discussions with you tend to be boring and pointless. Because everyone knows Byakuya being a noble means he is stronger than ANYONE and Kenpachi can't hope to compare because he is just a damn kid that stole his sword from dead shinigami. And I'm strangely convinced you did read my post. Otherwise I'd think I wasted precious 2 minutes of my life when one sentence was all it took. I think I should say "Thank you".

    PS. I can provide link to everything I've said. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it's you who never proved anything to anyone about Byakuya. You always show that he is strong and why, but nothing that'd prove him stronger than other captains. That's why noone wants to discuss anything with you concerning Byakuya. When someone says Kenpachi can own Byakuya you pop up saying "BYAKUYA IS A NOBLE AND THE STRONGEST HEAD IN HISTORY!", like it was any proof that Kenpachi is weaker than him. All you ever proved is Byakuya is strong. But all captains and Vaizards ARE strong, so in the end you never proved anything. And that's why people like me never take you seriously, just wishing you won't try to discuss this topic for the 100th time and go away.


    @EDIT: Damn, I was late. I'm left speechless hahahhaha. You actually took your time showing how strong he is again? You know you keep on saying the same things again, right? All things which were ridiculed by many people here and countered, while you didn't bother to do anything else then show your panels. I'm sure you already know them by heart so you can write them down in one go without thinking much.

    And you do realize, that you, once again, showed Byakuya is strong, NOT that he is stronger than others, right?
    That post was not directed at you, but at someone who claimed Byakuya was a weaker captain. What I posted points to him being a stronger captain. And as far as your precious Kenpachi, I said that Byakuya is not stronger than him. He and Byakuya were comparable in ability when Kenpachi was holding back. After fighting Unohana, Kenpachi would have wiped the floor with Byakuya as he was. But that may change, depending on what happens in the spirit dimension.

    If I repeat myself, it's because others say Byakuya is a weaker captain and I am more than willing to show he's not. And why shift things back on me to prove he's stronger. I never said that he was more powerful that any specific others, just that he is among the strongest. But I also said that whether one captain is more powerful than the next is not an indicator of who would win in a fight between them, because each of the captains while being within a certain range of power to be chosen captain, would have areas of strength and weakness that could help them win against a stronger captain or lose against a weaker one.

    You obviously don't pay attention, because you say I try to say Byakuya all powerful. He is not. Do I believe he is one of the more powerful captains? Yes, I do, and I provided evidence of his exceptional strength. I haven't seen anyone provide evidence of the other captains' amazing strength. I would enjoy seeing someone present that as opposed to just bashing the character.

    And you are welcome.

  8. #143
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    That post was not directed at you, but at someone who claimed Byakuya was a weaker captain. What I posted points to him being a stronger captain. And as far as your precious Kenpachi, I said that Byakuya is not stronger than him. He and Byakuya were comparable in ability when Kenpachi was holding back. After fighting Unohana, Kenpachi would have wiped the floor with Byakuya as he was. But that may change, depending on what happens in the spirit dimension.

    If I repeat myself, it's because others say Byakuya is a weaker captain and I am more than willing to show he's not. And why shift things back on me to prove he's stronger. I never said that he was more powerful that any specific others, just that he is among the strongest. But I also said that whether one captain is more powerful than the next is not an indicator of who would win in a fight between them, because each of the captains while being within a certain range of power to be chosen captain, would have areas of strength and weakness that could help them win against a stronger captain or lose against a weaker one.

    You obviously don't pay attention, because you say I try to say Byakuya all powerful. He is not. Do I believe he is one of the more powerful captains? Yes, I do, and I provided evidence of his exceptional strength. I haven't seen anyone provide evidence of the other captains' amazing strength. I would enjoy seeing someone present that as opposed to just bashing the character.

    And you are welcome.
    Yes, his strength is exceptional in SS, but not amongst captains, and that's all people everywhere are trying to say. There's no evidence that'd convince you. Vaizards can take on Bankai Ichigo without using Shikai. Senior captains were always superior, could fight Yamaji's Shikai. Hitsugaya showed one ability, that makes him above most captains in terms of offensive ability. If he had control over it and had confidence in his abilities he'd be one of the strongest. That's why I think that Byakuya, who is highly dependant on his ability, can't compare to Vaizards and seniors, that never used Bankai. And for me, even in shikai they outclass him. I'd gladly discuss about Byakuya and Vaizards comparison if we took ONLY Byakuya's Shikai into account. That'd be... pointless, I think.

    @Edit. Forgot something >.< You think people who lost their bankais were just random captains that went Bankai? We have FIVE captains, that showed us their Bankai. Mayuri, Soi-Fon, Komamura, Hitsugaya, Byakuya. Mayuri didn't fight. So who's left? People who lost their Bankais. So now we have good comparison. All captains now either don't have or don't use Bankai. Everyone fights with Shikai. And it doesn't seem like Vaizards can use masks in SS, as we never saw them put it on. Yamaji's condition when they came back to SS?
    Last edited by Duniak; August 20, 2013 at 07:53 PM.

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  10. #144
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    @FireBirdOne

    These do not suggest a weaker captain. All of the evidence in his prior battles distinguish Byakuya as a powerful and experienced fighter with carefully honed skills. And I still see people making wild claims that other captains are more powerful without providing any pages of manga that suggest any such thing. If there's evidence that Byakuya is not one of the stronger captains, then bring it on! I don't care about people arguing with my evidence. If I'm wrong, provide evidence of what you are saying. Don't just argue with the facts that I have presented. Argue well, and I just might have to give some ground here.

    I have debunked everything you have said already.

    A recap:

    1. This proves he has a large amount of reiatsu, as does every Captain. It has been stated that Shunsui, Jushiro and Unohana have vast amounts of spiritual pressure. We have seen Kenpachi's vast reiatsu. Shinji's reiatsu is described as monstrous.

    2. His status as a clan leader means nothing over the other Captains. If it does. as you claim it does, show exactly what it means, who is he better than because of his status? On the other side of the coin, Kenpachi, as far as I'm aware grew up in rough districts, the opposite of the noble Byakuya, yet he is one of the strongest Captains, so much for nobility.

    3.The Dagger, as far as i'm aware says that Byakuya is a prominent member of the Gotei 13. This does not mean just Captains, it also includes seated officers.

    4. Pure biased speculation.

    5. LoL. We have only seen the weakest Captains Bankai in battle. But this proves my point, we have seen Shunsui defeat Stark with only Shikai, Kenpachi has took on enemies in a sealed state, yet Byakuya has to use his full strength against everybody he has fought and he barely defeated Zommari, Fukashima and he lost against As Nodt. So much for a "well developed Bankai".

    6. So let me get this straight because Byakuya was the only Captain that lost, he is automatically one of the strongest? I can't actually believe you said this, I'm lost for words, surely you can see your bias??

  11. #145
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by vanyar View Post
    @FireBirdOne

    These do not suggest a weaker captain. All of the evidence in his prior battles distinguish Byakuya as a powerful and experienced fighter with carefully honed skills. And I still see people making wild claims that other captains are more powerful without providing any pages of manga that suggest any such thing. If there's evidence that Byakuya is not one of the stronger captains, then bring it on! I don't care about people arguing with my evidence. If I'm wrong, provide evidence of what you are saying. Don't just argue with the facts that I have presented. Argue well, and I just might have to give some ground here.

    I have debunked everything you have said already.

    A recap:

    1. This proves he has a large amount of reiatsu, as does every Captain. It has been stated that Shunsui, Jushiro and Unohana have vast amounts of spiritual pressure. We have seen Kenpachi's vast reiatsu. Shinji's reiatsu is described as monstrous.

    2. His status as a clan leader means nothing over the other Captains. If it does. as you claim it does, show exactly what it means, who is he better than because of his status? On the other side of the coin, Kenpachi, as far as I'm aware grew up in rough districts, the opposite of the noble Byakuya, yet he is one of the strongest Captains, so much for nobility.

    3.The Dagger, as far as i'm aware says that Byakuya is a prominent member of the Gotei 13. This does not mean just Captains, it also includes seated officers.

    4. Pure biased speculation.

    5. LoL. We have only seen the weakest Captains Bankai in battle. But this proves my point, we have seen Shunsui defeat Stark with only Shikai, Kenpachi has took on enemies in a sealed state, yet Byakuya has to use his full strength against everybody he has fought and he barely defeated Zommari, Fukashima and he lost against As Nodt. So much for a "well developed Bankai".

    6. So let me get this straight because Byakuya was the only Captain that lost, he is automatically one of the strongest? I can't actually believe you said this, I'm lost for words, surely you can see your bias??
    It is interesting how you did exactly what I asked you not to do and completely ignored my request for you not to simply argue every one of my points and bits of evidence, YOU COMPLETELY FAILED TO OFFER ANY PROOF OF YOUR CONTENTION THAT THE OTHER CAPTAINS ARE STRONGER. I'll make it simple for you. That's because there is none. You are as biased to favor your opinion as you claim I am to defend mine. However, I have not been unreasonable and have offered reasons why I feel he is one of the strongest, as well as the proof that supports it. That you do not like or agree with my interpretation is not my problem. There is nothing to say that you are right and I am wrong, so I guess we'll just have to see how things work out in the manga, though judging by your determination to look down on Byakuya, you would call anything good he does an a##pull. Still, I would like to see you bring out some real ammo instead of the 'blanks' you just used. I like stimulating argument, but not simple refusal to consider any but one's own viewpoint. It is clear I register other viewpoints because I have already conceded that Kyouraku is stronger and Kenpachi is now, but may or may not be when Byakuya returns from the spirit realm. You are the one determined to look at things through your own lens and not consider other points of view. You even brazenly ignore what Kubo has made perfectly clear about Byakuya. Now, that's bias.

    Ah yes, and on point number six, you obviously did not read or understand my argument because that is not AT ALL the argument I was making. I love how you twisted the words, though. Very creative...

    1. Let's see some links. Come on, impress me!

    2. So, the greatest leader in the history of the noble clans is a weakling? Yeah...sure...

    3. It says NO SUCH THING! Have you looked at the definition of the word PROMINENT? Obviously not or you would realize that it is defined as STANDING OUT AMONG ONES PEERS. Kubo said that even though some VC's are nearly there, they are not at a captain's level in ability. There's still something missing. Kubo's words. So, therefore, other seated officers are NOT A CAPTAIN'S PEERS! Live with it.

    4. Your choice to view it that way. I politely disagree. That is a very cheap way to say you can't argue the point. And the proof is in the manga and supported in manga, anime and the cute Omake episodes that play with their competitiveness. Even Unohana commented on Kenpachi having peers to squabble with and showed Ichigo, Byakuya and Renji. She acknowledged it. Kubo played with it. How is that biased?

    5. Byakuya crushed Zommari easily once he removed Rukia from the equation. He altered his strategy, proving his versatility against Tsukishima, who had a hax ability that even scared Ichigo! And if you bothered to read my take on the battle against As Nodt, you would understand how it shows his strength as well as how his connection to his loved ones was used to bring him down...incidentally, the same thing that caused Yama to lose. You want to tell me that Yama was weak too? I don't think so. Losing to As Nodt does not mean he is weak. His enemy had a very effective ability that would have stymied any captain.
    Last edited by Firebird0ne; August 21, 2013 at 10:23 PM.

  12. #146
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    It is clear I register other viewpoints
    You say this yet you ignore the point made as to why the Vizard captains, Senior captains and Kenpachi are stronger than Byakuya

    Quote Quote:
    I have already conceded that Kyouraku is stronger
    The only reason for this change of heart is that Kyouraku is now CC. Because of the title he has you believe he is stronger than Byakuya, and only because of the title.

    Quote Quote:
    Kenpachi is now
    How does that make any sense? In combat Kenpachi has always been stronger than Byakuya, hell the dude has been holding himself back and has taken much stronger opponents than Byakuya.

    He has yet to have had serious trouble with any opponent. He prolongs fights for his own pleasure, not because of his opponents strength. Yet, you refuse to admit that even before now he was stronger than Byakuya. The guy defeated all his opponents with a sealed frigging sword.

    Quote Quote:
    but may or may not be when Byakuya returns from the spirit realm.
    He would need to get a ridiculous upgrade to be able to contend with Kenpachi now that his sword reached out to him. If you go by the assumption that Byakuya is going to get some sort of power up that will make him as strong as Kenpachi, you should also consider that Kenpachi will most likely get Bankai, which will just increase the rift even more. Seriously, nothing short of the Hogyouku would give Byakuya such a significant boost.

    Quote Quote:
    You are the one determined to look at things through your own lens and not consider other points of view. You even brazenly ignore what Kubo has made perfectly clear about Byakuya. Now, that's bias.
    Kubos words did not at all indicate that Byakuya is exceptional among captains, but among the Gotei. Its been covered already, Gotei is composed of a lot of Shinigami, standing out as a Captain among Vice captains, Seated officers etc is not very decorative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    He altered his strategy, proving his versatility against Tsukishima, who had a hax ability that even scared Ichigo!
    Yes, Ichigo with no shinigami powers. Very cute.

    Quote Quote:
    And if you bothered to read my take on the battle against As Nodt, you would understand how it shows his strength as well as how his connection to his loved ones was used to bring him down...incidentally
    How exactly does it show his strength? I read the argument between you and Duniak and you chose to ignore that Byakuya was later unable to cut As Nodt. You accuse others of viewing things through theyre own lenses yet you refuse to acknowledge what the other SR who was with Nodt said/warned him.

    It was implied that he could have resisted the cut and we know that Blut is not always active.

    Quote Quote:
    The same thing that caused Yama to lose. You want to tell me that Yama was weak too? I don't think so.
    Yama did not lose because of his loved ones, he lost because Juha tricked him. Yama thought he killed Bach until he had his Bankai stolen and then killed. He was taken by surprise after believing he had killed his enemy. Byakuya never got that close.

    Quote Quote:
    Losing to As Nodt does not mean he is weak. His enemy had a very effective ability that would have stymied any captain.
    Nothing in that fight at all shows off Byakuyas strength. At all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    If I repeat myself, it's because others say Byakuya is a weaker captain and I am more than willing to show he's not. And why shift things back on me to prove he's stronger.
    Posting scans that show he has the requirements to be a considered a captain does not help your argument. You want to prove that he is stronger than what people think, then compare feats and stop posting things that outlay a captains strength.

    You say you believe that he is one of the more powerful captains; compared to who and who are these other powerful captains exactly?

    Quote Quote:
    So, the greatest leader in the history of the noble clans is a weakling? Yeah...sure...
    You cling onto dictionary definitions yet you fail to understand that leaders are not based on strength. You could be weak yet be the greatest leader of a clan.

    Unless it is stated that he is the most powerful or the strongest clan leader then you might have a point (I might have missed the panel)

    Quote Quote:
    It says NO SUCH THING! Have you looked at the definition of the word PROMINENT? Obviously not or you would realize that it is defined as STANDING OUT AMONG ONES PEERS. Kubo said that even though some VC's are nearly there, they are not at a captain's level in ability. There's still something missing. Kubo's words. So, therefore, other seated officers are NOT A CAPTAIN'S PEERS! Live with it.
    Nothing in the manga backs this up.

    Its a similar situation with the Databooks. Amaterasu in Naruto is said to burn as hotter if not hotter than the sun, but in the manga it does no such thing.

    If there is nothing to back such a statement up, it is just that, a statement holding no weight.
    Last edited by jaymizzo; August 21, 2013 at 10:48 PM.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

  13. #147
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    It is interesting how you did exactly what I asked you not to do and completely ignored my request for you not to simply argue every one of my points and bits of evidence, YOU COMPLETELY FAILED TO OFFER ANY PROOF OF YOUR CONTENTION THAT THE OTHER CAPTAINS ARE STRONGER. I'll make it simple for you. That's because there is none. You are as biased to favor your opinion as you claim I am to defend mine. However, I have not been unreasonable and have offered reasons why I feel he is one of the strongest, as well as the proof that supports it. That you do not like or agree with my interpretation is not my problem. There is nothing to say that you are right and I am wrong, so I guess we'll just have to see how things work out in the manga, though judging by your determination to look down on Byakuya, you would call anything good he does an a##pull. Still, I would like to see you bring out some real ammo instead of the 'blanks' you just used. I like stimulating argument, but not simple refusal to consider any but one's own viewpoint. It is clear I register other viewpoints because I have already conceded that Kyouraku is stronger and Kenpachi is now, but may or may not be when Byakuya returns from the spirit realm. You are the one determined to look at things through your own lens and not consider other points of view. You even brazenly ignore what Kubo has made perfectly clear about Byakuya. Now, that's bias.

    Ah yes, and on point number six, you obviously did not read or understand my argument because that is not AT ALL the argument I was making. I love how you twisted the words, though. Very creative...

    1. Let's see some links. Come on, impress me!

    2. So, the greatest leader in the history of the noble clans is a weakling? Yeah...sure...

    3. It says NO SUCH THING! Have you looked at the definition of the word PROMINENT? Obviously not or you would realize that it is defined as STANDING OUT AMONG ONES PEERS. Kubo said that even though some VC's are nearly there, they are not at a captain's level in ability. There's still something missing. Kubo's words. So, therefore, other seated officers are NOT A CAPTAIN'S PEERS! Live with it.

    4. Your choice to view it that way. I politely disagree. That is a very cheap way to say you can't argue the point. And the proof is in the manga and supported in manga, anime and the cute Omake episodes that play with their competitiveness. Even Unohana commented on Kenpachi having peers to squabble with and showed Ichigo, Byakuya and Renji. She acknowledged it. Kubo played with it. How is that biased?

    5. Byakuya crushed Zommari easily once he removed Rukia from the equation. He altered his strategy, proving his versatility against Tsukishima, who had a hax ability that even scared Ichigo! And if you bothered to read my take on the battle against As Nodt, you would understand how it shows his strength as well as how his connection to his loved ones was used to bring him down...incidentally, the same thing that caused Yama to lose. You want to tell me that Yama was weak too? I don't think so. Losing to As Nodt does not mean he is weak. His enemy had a very effective ability that would have stymied any captain.
    1.
    Shunsui and Jushiro:
    http://www.mangasee.com/manga/?serie...ndex=1&page=10
    Shinji:
    http://www.mangapark.com/manga/Bleach/c185/6
    Kenpachi:
    I think this is obvious, but do you actually want me to provide links?

    2. Nope, never said that. He is one of the better newer generation Captains. But I don't see any reason based on what he has done to put him over Senior Captains or Visored.

    3. Wasn't the wording Gotei 13? Those were the words you used. If so then it applies to the whole Gotei 13, if Kubo meant just Captains, then he wouldn't of said Gotei 13.

    4. How the characters interact means that they are equals? Can you clarify?

    5. Byakuya needed Bankai to defeat Zommari, which means he had to fight at full strength. When you compare that to other characters it's not impressive.

    Now on to why I think he is one of the weaker Captains.

    In battle he has fought, Zommari, Fukashima and As Nodt. In all of his fights he has used Bankai which means he had to fight at full strength.

    He used Bankai against Zommari the 7th Espada. Kenpachi defeated the 5th Espada in a sealed state. Shunsui defeated the 1st Espada in shikai. Even Rojuro and Love fought with the 1st Espada in Shikai. Shinji fought Grimmjow(albeit injured) in an entirely sealed state.

    Even against Fukashima he had to use Bankai and struggled with his opponent, while the others didn't.

    Then against As Nodt, he was the only captain to lose.

    Based on the things we have seen why would we conclude that he is a stronger Captain than most?

    Here's a breakdown:
    Shunsui - Defeated Stark with only Shikai.
    Jushiro - Considered on the same level as Shunsui.
    Kenpachi - Defeated 5th Espada in a sealed state.
    Retsu - Destroyed Kenpachi till he unlocked his full power.
    Shinji - Defeated an injured Grimmjow easily in a sealed state. Managed to cut Aizen in Shikai.
    Rojuro + Love - Fought a released Stark in Shikai.
    Kensei - Fought hollow Ichigo for 8 mins in Shikai(could be wrong about this)

    Now based on this Byakuya has fought weaker opponents e.g Zommari, and he had to use his full strength. While, with the possible exception of Kensei, all of these Captains have fought stronger opponents without using their full power. So based on this why would I conclude that Byakuya is one of the stronger Captains?

  14. #148
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by vanyar View Post
    1.
    Shunsui and Jushiro:
    http://www.mangasee.com/manga/?serie...ndex=1&page=10
    Shinji:
    http://www.mangapark.com/manga/Bleach/c185/6
    Kenpachi:
    I think this is obvious, but do you actually want me to provide links?

    2. Nope, never said that. He is one of the better newer generation Captains. But I don't see any reason based on what he has done to put him over Senior Captains or Visored.

    3. Wasn't the wording Gotei 13? Those were the words you used. If so then it applies to the whole Gotei 13, if Kubo meant just Captains, then he wouldn't of said Gotei 13.

    4. How the characters interact means that they are equals? Can you clarify?

    5. Byakuya needed Bankai to defeat Zommari, which means he had to fight at full strength. When you compare that to other characters it's not impressive.

    Now on to why I think he is one of the weaker Captains.

    In battle he has fought, Zommari, Fukashima and As Nodt. In all of his fights he has used Bankai which means he had to fight at full strength.

    He used Bankai against Zommari the 7th Espada. Kenpachi defeated the 5th Espada in a sealed state. Shunsui defeated the 1st Espada in shikai. Even Rojuro and Love fought with the 1st Espada in Shikai. Shinji fought Grimmjow(albeit injured) in an entirely sealed state.

    Even against Fukashima he had to use Bankai and struggled with his opponent, while the others didn't.

    Then against As Nodt, he was the only captain to lose.

    Based on the things we have seen why would we conclude that he is a stronger Captain than most?

    Here's a breakdown:
    Shunsui - Defeated Stark with only Shikai.
    Jushiro - Considered on the same level as Shunsui.
    Kenpachi - Defeated 5th Espada in a sealed state.
    Retsu - Destroyed Kenpachi till he unlocked his full power.
    Shinji - Defeated an injured Grimmjow easily in a sealed state. Managed to cut Aizen in Shikai.
    Rojuro + Love - Fought a released Stark in Shikai.
    Kensei - Fought hollow Ichigo for 8 mins in Shikai(could be wrong about this)

    Now based on this Byakuya has fought weaker opponents e.g Zommari, and he had to use his full strength. While, with the possible exception of Kensei, all of these Captains have fought stronger opponents without using their full power. So based on this why would I conclude that Byakuya is one of the stronger Captains?
    I think we both have some backing to our claims. We disagree based on our differing interpretations, based on the same events. I am not saying that Byakuya is stronger than the other captains, but that all of the captains are not that far apart in strength. Senior captains are not separated in rank, EXCEPT that they have been captains longer, and the difference in their levels of power is not that much. That is why they qualify to be captains. So, while we can go back and forth about who is stronger, you have no proof that Byakuya is ANY WEAKER than any other captain. He fought as Kenpachi's equal against the zero Espada. If he was so much weaker than Kenpachi or any of the vizards, he wouldn't have been able to do that. Even with Kenpachi there, he would have been cut down. You might remember too that while the vizards stayed in shikai, they also got the crud smacked out of them before pulling off their victories. Against Zommari, the only damage done to Byakuya was what he did to himself to resist the Espada's power. And again, no other captains with the possible exceptions of Kenpachi and Kyouraku would have done any better. You can argue that he uses bankai a lot. Heck, if I had a pretty bankai like that, I would like using it too. That doesn't make him weaker. It is a personal decision to shorten the battle using bankai. Using his full power was a choice. And when it comes to TSUKISHIMA, I defy you to explain how any other captain could have done better against an opponent who slips himself into one's past and learns the full compliment of their techniques and how to counter them. Byakuya showed remarkable poise in battling, using new strategies to combat him. And against As Nodt, he fought as well as ANY OTHER CAPTAIN would have. Everyone has fears, and with an ability like As Nodt's, I think ANY CAPTAIN would not have defeated him.

    But you are biased in thinking that no matter what Byakuya does, it is not good enough. No amount of argument or examples will convince you of anything, so arguing further is pointless. You even ignore Kubo's own ways of showing that Byakuya is strong. But that is your choice. Just stick with that. And I'll stick with my perception.

    Oh, and by the way, Byakuya was not the only captain to lose. Yama and Kenpachi lost too. I guess that makes them weak by your definition too. Good one...

  15. #149
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    I think we both have some backing to our claims. We disagree based on our differing interpretations, based on the same events. I am not saying that Byakuya is stronger than the other captains, but that all of the captains are not that far apart in strength. Senior captains are not separated in rank, EXCEPT that they have been captains longer, and the difference in their levels of power is not that much.
    Saying that the Captains aren't that far apart in strength is a grand claim. Can you back it up? I can pretty much prove that it's not the case. Kenpachi fought 2 Captains at once. Retsu was beating Kenpachi. Yama fought 2 Captains at once. Aizen defeated pretty much everybody. Sajin had to use Bankai against Poww, Shunsui only had to use Shikai against Stark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    That is why they qualify to be captains.
    No it isn't, Bankai and a personal recommendation is all you need and having Bankai does not automatically put you in the same league as the more senior Captains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    So, while we can go back and forth about who is stronger, you have no proof that Byakuya is ANY WEAKER than any other captain.
    We can compare feats though. Byakuya hasn't shown anything on the scale of more senior Captains, Kenpachi or some of the Visored. So why, logically would you claim that he is a stronger Captain. When in fact, from what we have seen he is on the weaker end of the scale. By your logic then we dismiss what we have seen and claim Byakuya is one of the stronger Captains because he is the head of a noble family?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    He fought as Kenpachi's equal against the zero Espada. If he was so much weaker than Kenpachi or any of the vizards, he wouldn't have been able to do that. Even with Kenpachi there, he would have been cut down. You might remember too that while the vizards stayed in shikai, they also got the crud smacked out of them before pulling off their victories. Against Zommari, the only damage done to Byakuya was what he did to himself to resist the Espada's power. And again, no other captains with the possible exceptions of Kenpachi and Kyouraku would have done any better.
    Did we actually see much of the Yammy fight? So the Visoreds got the crud kicked out of them and they still won, Byakuya got the crud kicked out of him against Zommari and Fukashima, so? Byakuya damaged himself so Zommari couldn't control his body, so? Big claim to say Kenpachi or Shunsui could do better, can you back it up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    You can argue that he uses bankai a lot. Heck, if I had a pretty bankai like that, I would like using it too. That doesn't make him weaker. It is a personal decision to shorten the battle using bankai. Using his full power was a choice.
    Sure, but why to shorten the battle against Zommari did he need to use Bankai, while Shunsui only needed to use Shikai in his battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    And when it comes to TSUKISHIMA, I defy you to explain how any other captain could have done better against an opponent who slips himself into one's past and learns the full compliment of their techniques and how to counter them. Byakuya showed remarkable poise in battling, using new strategies to combat him. And against As Nodt, he fought as well as ANY OTHER CAPTAIN would have. Everyone has fears, and with an ability like As Nodt's, I think ANY CAPTAIN would not have defeated him.
    But other Captains did fight Fullbringers and Quincy, and came out ok. Byakuya barely defeated Fukashima and lost to As Nodt. To say Byakuya fought as ANY OTHER CAPTAIN and that ANY CAPTAIN would not have defeated As Nodt is a large claim, can you back these claims up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    But you are biased in thinking that no matter what Byakuya does, it is not good enough. No amount of argument or examples will convince you of anything, so arguing further is pointless. You even ignore Kubo's own ways of showing that Byakuya is strong. But that is your choice. Just stick with that. And I'll stick with my perception.
    Nope, your evidence is pointing out Byakuya is strong, which he is, he is a Captain. But you offer nothing that compares him to other Captains. I have compared his feats to the feats of other Captains and he ranks on the lower end of the spectrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    Oh, and by the way, Byakuya was not the only captain to lose. Yama and Kenpachi lost too. I guess that makes them weak by your definition too. Good one...
    True, but Yama was tricked and Kenpachi was beaten by Juha. Kenpachi defeated 3 Stern Ritter, each with unique abilities, how many did Byakuya defeat?

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  17. #150
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Vanyar, don't bother. If he wants to discuss SOOOOO much we can take Shikai Byakuya into account. ONLY. Hiyori can crack Zangetsu without using Shikai and loses only when Ichigo suddenly Hollowfies. She also wants Ichigo to use Bankai against her unreleased, Masked form. IIRC, Byakuya didn't do very good against Ichigo in Shikai vs Shikai. Just like he didn't do very good with Shikai against Zommari. And As Nodt. Yet Vizored fight Bankai Ichigo without using Shikais. And Byakuya? Well, I think we all know what he can do in Shikai. Much less than Vaizard VC without it.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-614-18...apter-160.html

    One attack is enough for Byakuya to instantly go Bankai. That's why he is pathetic. Others fight their opponents with Shikai, being 5-10x weaker than in Bankai and hold their own better than Byakuya. It isn't really fair to compare them like that... I'll welcome any argument showing, that Byakuya could fight any Arrancar in Shikai and beat his Ressurection. Anything above Szayel should do. You want to discuss about Kenpachi? Let's have Byakuya fight without using Shikai at all. Now that they both have Bankais I really want to see how Byakuya can catch up in SP.

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-40673-6...apter-383.html

    Patched Kenpachi vs Byakuya's Bankai.
    Kenpachi PATCHED non-Shikai- Literally blew away Yammy's cheek.
    Byakuya's Bankai- a cut.

    Reiatsu?
    Kenpachi before 2 fights where he lifted his limit was equal to Byakuya while patched. No contest there.

    Firebird, please show me anything that'd put Byakuya above Kenpachi and senior captains. You say we should show you some panels? Your links are not connected to original point at all. You want som links? Here you go, I'll give you links that back up my argument just as your links are somehow saying "Byakuya is one of stronger captains"

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-521-1/...hapter-67.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-521-14...hapter-67.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-521-20...hapter-67.html

    That one especially!

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-522-2/...hapter-68.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-535-1/...hapter-81.html

    You see? I can do it too! Now show me anything that shows Byakuya is actually above ANY captain.


    Btw. Don't put too much faith in those words in Dagger. Not only does this not say he's strong amongst captains, it is not even written by Kubo. Databooks never are considered canon, just as a help.
    Last edited by Duniak; August 23, 2013 at 04:02 AM.

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